That was a clear indication that Houck is the only BP arm that can be trusted. No lead is safe
Bullpen ‘22
- Thread starter Sandy Leon Trotsky
- Start date
Is that speculation or have you looked at the games he was brought into?
No worries, I was just wondering if there was some kind of statement from Cora that dovetailed with Houck's use.
FWIW, here's the game log: https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.fcgi?id=houckta01&t=p&year=2022
Early May seemed to be in the 50-60 pitch block with no fixed interval, 3-6 days. But clearly gaps when they weren't using him. So sorta, but not quite a piggyback starter?
Then he was pulled after 17 pitches on a May 29th blowout and used yesterday June 1, for 25 pitches. Maybe it's a change in approach?
They were saying on the broadcast last night that he was pulled from the 5/29 game with the low pitch count specifically so he'd be available again for another game on the homestand. I don't think they specifically had last night in mind (could have been Monday or Tuesday), just that they didn't want him unavailable until the road trip began. I assume the next time he'll be available is Sunday now.
Edit to add: I think the big gap in his pattern (5/8 to 5/15) might have been related to effectiveness (maybe that's when he added the new slider grip) but also the team had two off-days that week so it might simply have been lack of opportunity.
I still don’t get the usage of Houck other than as a “I don’t trust ANYONE to protect a lead no matter how big” statement. If it’s a close lead in the game tomorrow with 4 innings required of the pen and the drecks blow it up it’ll be easy to second guess using Houck today
Perhaps it had to do with Houck warming two days straight?
Also makes sense if you want to get him used to closing.
Also makes sense if you want to get him used to closing.
Perhaps Cora wanted to go with the best chance to secure the shut-out? It doesn’t matter in the standings if you win 8-0 or 8-7, but maybe there’s a boost to team morale to post the goose egg.
Also, was Houck warming before the Sox scored those runs in the 8th? If so, as MRC said, you use him because you had him warming.
Yeah, he pitched because he was warm. He didn't pitch the ninth because of the lead. So maybe he's available again tomorrow due to the short outing today, but at worst he's available on Monday.
It is impossible to use any reliever only in the most effective/valuable spots AND have him be available for all such spots. Or at least not if you want the guy to survive more than a year or two.
He threw 13 pitches. Maybe now that they're into June, and Houck is definitely in the bullpen, they're going try him 2 days in a row
All responses to my complaint are totally valid. But does it still seem- understandably- that Houck is the only reliever that Cora trusts with a lead?
I was a little surprised by the use of Houck yesterday with Hill pitching today. Not that those two need to be married together, but typically Hill's not going deep into games and Houck's really the the best option to go 3 or so innings if need be. That said, as others pointed out he'd warmed up two days in a row and at the time of warming up yesterday the lead was 4 runs. I guess Cora did what he felt was best in that moment to secure that win.
Id really like to see Winckowski given a 3 inning-long relief role and have him follow Hill. Make Houck a closer.
Winckowski is back in Worcester. He was up as the 26th player for the Orioles double header, but he isn't on the 25-man roster.
I know that there is a popular thought that the eventual return of Sale and Paxton might fortify the bullpen. While we're still quite a way from that happening, I'm wondering what some of who you more familiar with the farm think we might have available to acquire a dependable righty to help bolster the pen. I'm not looking for a blockbuster, just a good, dependable guy that can fill a void.
Obviously anyone- even Meyer- is trade worthy in the right deal…. Soto?
But more likely the only mL pieces I think Bloom won’t let go of are Casas, Bello and Meyer.
I don’t even know who from what team would be available though
EDIT-anyone know the status on Taylor? He had some good stuff last season and would help
Taylor is injured (mid-back strain). He threw a bullpen this week, so is probably at least 2-3 weeks away, assuming he doesn't have another setback. Also, he is on the 60-day IL, so a 40-man move will be required if and when activated.
Again, I'm not looking for a blockbuster here, not for a dependable bullpen arm. As for Taylor, any help would be welcome and if he comes back healthy that will be great. ATM I think a righty might better suit their needs.
I think some of the only rental bullpen arms that make sense are Michael Fulmer and David Robertson, though both will be in demand.
Your question is more to do with what package would we send out for a reliever, and I’m not so sure there is one that makes sense. Maybe a guy like Chris Murphy for Robertson? He’d be on the back end of prospects we’d need to protect this year, but I suspect it’d take more for a really good bullpen arm this year.
There are plenty of other relief arms with more team control, but I think Bloom would prefer to bring up Frank German, Zack Kelly and/or Brandon Walter before he trades for someone like that. They’ll need to add those guys to the 40-man this offseason anyway, and adding more relievers to the mix hurts their ability to keep the many guys we need to protect this winter.
It’s possible Bloom packages some of the guys on the 40-man bubble in a trade, but I don’t think it’d be for a reliever. He seems to be pretty confident in his ability to find bullpen diamonds in the rough, and his track record on that is pretty decent. Schreiber, Danish and Strahm are three castoffs who all look very solid for us, and that’s putting aside Whitlock.
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Trevor Rosenthal is throwing for scouts after two surgeries. He is worth a flier imo
View: https://twitter.com/JonHeyman/status/1533967901069348864?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
View: https://twitter.com/JonHeyman/status/1533967901069348864?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
Is it possible to sign Rosenthal to a big minor league contract, then send him to the minors to get in shape, without putting him on the 40 man immediately until after he shows he can be productive?
Losing a player off the 40 man for a roll of the dice seems like a bad choice after the description of his workout, but if it only costs money, why not?
What does “strong but not in pitching shape mean”? Seeing how he’s a pitcher, it seems like you’d want him in pitching shape. What’s the timetable for him being ready?
He’s pitched 39 innings in the last four years. Didn’t pitch in 18, terrible in 19, great in 20, didn’t pitch in 21.
I dunno, I guess it can’t hurt but given that the Sox are already waiting on two injured pitchers (well three if you count Taylor, I guess), not sure I see the need to add another with a probably low likelihood of success.
He’s pitched 39 innings in the last four years. Didn’t pitch in 18, terrible in 19, great in 20, didn’t pitch in 21.
I dunno, I guess it can’t hurt but given that the Sox are already waiting on two injured pitchers (well three if you count Taylor, I guess), not sure I see the need to add another with a probably low likelihood of success.
That's certainly a possibility, but all it will take is one team willing to sign him to a major league deal to blow that gambit up. Though "strong but not in pitching shape" sounds awfully close to starting from scratch, which might mean he's not going to be game ready for a month, let alone ready for a big league mound. I wouldn't be keen to commit to anything more than a standard minor league deal with the possibility of paying him no more than the veteran minimum should he make to the big league club. Rather see them give a shot to anyone on the Worcester roster.
I KNOW SAVES ARE A STUPID STAT ... but, here are the MLB leaders in them. if part of the bullpen problem is who throws the ninth inning, this gives a current look at who has been the most successful, including among teams who are probable sellers. Anyone's season jump out as a possible acquisition target?
https://www.espn.com/mlb/stats/player/_/view/pitching/table/pitching/sort/saves/dir/desc
https://www.espn.com/mlb/stats/player/_/view/pitching/table/pitching/sort/saves/dir/desc
He's rusty from not pitching in awhile. Probably needs some time to get a feel for pitching again.
Or he could just be awful.
Cora has announced that Houck is taking over the Garrett Whitlock role from 2021
https://nesn.com/2022/06/alex-cora-names-who-will-fill-red-soxs-unique-garrett-whitlock-role/
This is good news. I was thinking as I was watching him tonite that the guy is now in his fourth season with the Sox. It's time to give him a clearer role. But maybe he is destined to be this generation's Bob Stanley who was a pretty good pitcher for a long time in both starter and relief roles.
I'd strongly consider putting Whitlock back in the pen once Sale or Paxton comes back. As a starter he's been OK, 9 starts 40 innings, 18 runs for a 4.05 era, but I think he has more value as a second multi inning guy out of the pen. In a potential playoff series being able to throw either Houck or Whitlock 2-3 innings nearly every game is a pretty powerful weapon to be able to deploy.
It might just be small sample size, but he's been crushed the second time through the order this year, before today he had a .488 ops first time through and a .935 2nd time through.
It might just be small sample size, but he's been crushed the second time through the order this year, before today he had a .488 ops first time through and a .935 2nd time through.
Bard would be the obvious one, he's been lucky, a few too many walks but good K-rate. His stuff is great, best velocity of his career. $4.4 million and a FA after this season.
Probably, but when the options to move to the pen right now would be a guy who we know is already a stud in the relief ace role and has meh results as a starter so far, or a guy that has a long history of being a mediocre starter and hasn't relieved in almost a decade I'd go with Whitlock to the pen pretty easily.
We don't know if Whitlock is currently a relief ace. He did it well for one year, but this year looks like a different pitcher. It's absolutely not guaranteed that he'd go right back to being unhittable if he were in the pen, nor is it guaranteed he wouldn't currently be sidearming his sinker if he never left the pen.
Other than his era of 0.56 while being used as a relief ace or an opener in April. He didn't look like a different pitcher until they started stretching him out more.
So he’s going to use a prime bullpen arm like a prime bullpen arm. Whee! What’s the next press conference about?
The Red Sox are willing to consider Chris Sale in a bullpen role (at least initially) if it gets him to the big leagues more quickly (and the rest of the pitching staff can absorb the workload).
View: https://twitter.com/chadjennings22/status/1535264504027746305
View: https://twitter.com/chadjennings22/status/1535264504027746305
I don't think he'd be in the bullpen as a traditional reliever. He would either be an opener or piggy back on someone like either Whitlock or Hill's starts. With him coming off TJ, he should not be warming up multiple times a game so him being a 7th/8th inning guy or a closer seems unlikely.
But his use will likely be scheduled and not necessarily in line with the needs of the team in any given game. I guess the plus in this is that he'll be facing MLB hitters and not MiL hitters and that occasionally his scheduled day to pitch might line up with a particular in game need.
Seems like the Whitlock path to me. Select relief spots 3-4 days apart, with an eye toward stretching out to starter lengths by end of season. Essentially, it seems they're open to him doing some of his rehab out of the big league bullpen rather than making a bunch of starts for Portland and Worcester to ramp up his pitch count.
The closer role has always seemed like one of the most volatile roles in baseball (at least IMO). The closer role seems to change for every team, from season to season.
See kimbrel with the dodgers now. Great closers one year can end up on the “trash heap” the next.
See Bard or Barnes as well. Or see chapman for the yankees.
On the other end of the spectrum you can look at Koji. What would have become of Koji if Both Joel Hanrahan and Andrew Bailey didn’t fail in the closer role. Which then necessitated them giving the role to Koji in 2013..
Did anyone think going into 2013 that koji would be the sox closer?
Heck even Koji’s 2013 run was statistically impossible especially given Koji’s age in 2013.
https://diamond-digest.com/2020/02/04/koji-uehara-the-2013-red-sox-a-year-of-unexpected-dominance/
See kimbrel with the dodgers now. Great closers one year can end up on the “trash heap” the next.
See Bard or Barnes as well. Or see chapman for the yankees.
On the other end of the spectrum you can look at Koji. What would have become of Koji if Both Joel Hanrahan and Andrew Bailey didn’t fail in the closer role. Which then necessitated them giving the role to Koji in 2013..
Did anyone think going into 2013 that koji would be the sox closer?
Heck even Koji’s 2013 run was statistically impossible especially given Koji’s age in 2013.
https://diamond-digest.com/2020/02/04/koji-uehara-the-2013-red-sox-a-year-of-unexpected-dominance/
