5 vs 8: Where we discuss the quality (or lack thereof) of NBA Playoff Officiating
- Thread starter PedroKsBambino
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Giannis sold it on a rebound attempt last night. I think it was Grant that got the foul.
Not only that, you could argue that the Big 3 Celtics were pioneers in bending that particular rule set. The Bucks pay penalties for playing so large, they’re entitled to the advantages.
Why?? You’re taking away inside scoring and allowing a huge rebound advantage because a team is playing tall? They get an advantage because they decide to play an irregular lineup?
The bolded is true, except they are NOT calling this during the series against MIL.
It's a compromise call that rewards or at least enables a more physical defense. There was a foul, first by Hill and then by GA. Originally I didn't even acknowledge Hill's foul because that is how MIL is playing their version of tough defense - by hand checking, grabbing, holding, etc.
Saying it was called on Hill AND giving JB shots doesn't compute. They called the foul on GA contact and then generously gave the foul to Hill to keep GA from foul trouble. It happens all the time in the NBA [I think PP got a foul or two this series that belonged to others], and in my mind it's not a big deal in this case - except in the totality of the whistle for GA. That was one more play in the X number of uncalled fouls on GA which allows him to play with an aggression that other players cannot. Late in the game GA was allowed to play with abandon safe in his foul situation. Grant in contrast was not, he had to be cautious of fouling out - courtesy of getting called by the special GA whistle when run over by the 7:05 train from Greece. Take away the GA whistle in that single play, and the 4th quarter close looks a bit different (maybe with the same results, but it looks different).
Speaking for myself, that is the primary complaint. These foul calls in a vacuum aren't a big deal - if there were no concept of fouling out, it's easier to take your lumps from a bad whistle and move on. In the context of the game the special whistle impacts GA in a positive way, and those defending him in a negative way - a double swing. Turns a team into sisyphus with a clock running against them.
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Here I will again make my pitch or eliminating fouling out in the NBA.
It forces an already tortured officiating crew to have to perform ridiculous mental gymnastics in real time before making ultimately stupid and embarrassing decisions.
The penalty of free throws is plenty. If the fouls are egregious there are now plenty of accelerated penalties there too.
Interesting. The risk is that it would lead players to foul more. You could call a technical on fouls #7, #8, #9, etc.
You could give 3 to make 2 after #6, also could treat all fouls after 6 as if in bonus.
After the game 3/4 combat, I think the refs have reined things in nicely. The calls aren't perfect, but they aren't "basketball, but one dude is alloed to kill people" either.
I thought the game was officiated well. And, if I was being honest, it felt like the Cs got a lot of whistles when finishing at the rim and the Bucks didn't.
This is the way it works currently if a player who has fouled out has to come into the game because a team is down to 4 players. Allowing this in general would not take a huge amount of editing of the rule book.
Giannis trucking people continues to be a challenge—the reversal on the charge with Grant is weak, for example.
I do think they’ve balanced Celtics ability to be physical back better last two games; I also continue to see that if they called Giannis more like other stars (not talking normal guys) he’d be in a ton of foul trouble and the unwillingness to do that is a bad look for the league
I do think they’ve balanced Celtics ability to be physical back better last two games; I also continue to see that if they called Giannis more like other stars (not talking normal guys) he’d be in a ton of foul trouble and the unwillingness to do that is a bad look for the league
Maybe this is a good thread for me to ask a rules/officiating question. Can someone explain moving screens? Adebayo often shifts at least his hip out when someone is tying to go over a screen. Is this legal? At the other extreme, why was KG’s pick against Zaza illegal back in the 08 playoffs? I’ve seen similar plays this year (one of the early round Western conference playoffs, I think, maybe the Suns) where the officials seem to react more to the severity of the contact than to whether the screener was set. The whole thing leaves me confused.
I think certain players know how to set "moving" screens without getting caught.
Exhibit A: Al Horford. It is just one of the many things that is hard to officiate with precision.
What I really don't for the life of me understand is what the league policy is on blows to the head. Are they looking for intentionality? Carelessness? Any contact at all regardless of circumstances? It feels to me like the standard varies from game to game and perhaps from play to play. I have no idea what it is.
Exhibit A: Al Horford. It is just one of the many things that is hard to officiate with precision.
What I really don't for the life of me understand is what the league policy is on blows to the head. Are they looking for intentionality? Carelessness? Any contact at all regardless of circumstances? It feels to me like the standard varies from game to game and perhaps from play to play. I have no idea what it is.
Intentionality is not supposed to matter, but it very clearly does. It seems like the refs don't want everything to be e flagrant, so they're willing to look the other way on some stuff which doesn't look intentional.
I think intentionality makes sense as a distinction between flagrant 1 and 2. I don't think if that is what the rule is.
But so many blows to the head happen in the NBA, so many of them are ignored, and then some innocuous seeming contact gets a flagrant 1. Makes no sense to me.
Give the coaches unlimited challenges and the ability to challenge uncalled possible flagrant 1 fouls, and the numbers would sky rocket - which I believe would be a positive to the game (after an initial period while the players learned to modify their approaches, and the referees learn they will be embarrassed when not calling them). I think too much head contact is ignored as well - and in the CET knowledgeable era, as a consumer of the game I'd like to know the players are as safe as can be managed.
At the risk of being repetitive (I brought this up in the playoff thread):
The Hardensque praxis -- where every little contact is a foul -- is annoying whomever practices it. Jimmy Butler included.
But that's life in the NBA.
What is more than annoying is the lack of a corresponding whistle for JT (and JB). Perhaps these young'uns haven't earned the superstar considerations, but they are All Stars and should get
"star" consideration. Give them some benefit of the doubt.
Can Ime or others can make that point to the refs. Which is: if you are going to instinctively blow the whistle when Butler is touched, then blow the whistle when JT, etc gets bumped.
Alas: I am not going to hold my breath waiting for this to happen.
The Hardensque praxis -- where every little contact is a foul -- is annoying whomever practices it. Jimmy Butler included.
But that's life in the NBA.
What is more than annoying is the lack of a corresponding whistle for JT (and JB). Perhaps these young'uns haven't earned the superstar considerations, but they are All Stars and should get
"star" consideration. Give them some benefit of the doubt.
Can Ime or others can make that point to the refs. Which is: if you are going to instinctively blow the whistle when Butler is touched, then blow the whistle when JT, etc gets bumped.
Alas: I am not going to hold my breath waiting for this to happen.
This felt like one of the worst officiated games of the postseason and maybe the season.
There seemed to be a lot of shaky calls against the Celtics, but I have the gut feeling that Heat fans could justifiably say the same thig happened to them.
It just felt like a lot of the calls were weird and inconsistent.
There seemed to be a lot of shaky calls against the Celtics, but I have the gut feeling that Heat fans could justifiably say the same thig happened to them.
It just felt like a lot of the calls were weird and inconsistent.
There were terrible calls both ways, but it felt like the bad calls against the C's were much more consequential.
Good way of putting it.
refs blow the Tatum block/charge call, costs the Celtics 3 points, and the “make up call” is a moving screen on Strus just as the possession starts
This. It was just horrendous in general, not lopsided one way or the other. 55 freaking fouls. That’s not good basketball. Compare that to G5, which I think was officiated well, only 38 fouls.
There is nothing worse than when a crew thinks they have to call EVERY time someone falls down or reacts awkwardly to contact.
That’s how you end up with some of these offensive foul calls that really should be no calls. I think a lot of the push-off type calls for example should be no calls. If you are going to allow relentless hacking and swiping (Celtics arms must look like me after going a few rounds with my cat when she’s mad), you should equally allow some offensive leeway. How many great moments in ankle breaking would have been erased from history by overzealous officials?
It’s also a huge disservice to put guys in foul trouble without earning it. The call on Horford’s second was a true phantom foul in every sense. Displays a real lack of feel for the game which unfortunately played out the whole way. And in addition to that there were some real true missed calls like the Butler OOB.
The replays rules are asinine and arbitrary and relay should be canned entirely. Adds nothing to the game and there are so many consequential calls that cannot be reviewed because the rules are so arbitrary, it’s pointless.
At least it was consistent all game tonight, I guess. The true worst is when they flip a switch and start calling it differently (cough 2010 cough).
That’s how you end up with some of these offensive foul calls that really should be no calls. I think a lot of the push-off type calls for example should be no calls. If you are going to allow relentless hacking and swiping (Celtics arms must look like me after going a few rounds with my cat when she’s mad), you should equally allow some offensive leeway. How many great moments in ankle breaking would have been erased from history by overzealous officials?
It’s also a huge disservice to put guys in foul trouble without earning it. The call on Horford’s second was a true phantom foul in every sense. Displays a real lack of feel for the game which unfortunately played out the whole way. And in addition to that there were some real true missed calls like the Butler OOB.
The replays rules are asinine and arbitrary and relay should be canned entirely. Adds nothing to the game and there are so many consequential calls that cannot be reviewed because the rules are so arbitrary, it’s pointless.
At least it was consistent all game tonight, I guess. The true worst is when they flip a switch and start calling it differently (cough 2010 cough).
That was, in terms of impact and I suspect intent, the biggest blown officiated game of the post season.
Miami again came out with a super hack defense and was allowed to do it all game. Celtics largely matched physicality, but don’t need to as much. And foul trouble impacted Celts rotation. Fair game in the first half across those.
in second half, it’s pretty hard to defend a lot of calls. Many blown both ways though heavy balance in Miami’s favor. there were 4 or so replays where announcers were silent about the call because it was obviously wrong, and several others where they made the point it wasn’t a playoff level call.
in aggregate those calls mattered a lot—created a ton of rest for Miami, broke flow of game, and gave a material advantage to Miami. That simply should t happen in nba conference finals games and it did.
oddly, I also thought Miami played better at end; but what I saw is that the game wOuld have turned out differently with an evenplaying field.
Miami again came out with a super hack defense and was allowed to do it all game. Celtics largely matched physicality, but don’t need to as much. And foul trouble impacted Celts rotation. Fair game in the first half across those.
in second half, it’s pretty hard to defend a lot of calls. Many blown both ways though heavy balance in Miami’s favor. there were 4 or so replays where announcers were silent about the call because it was obviously wrong, and several others where they made the point it wasn’t a playoff level call.
in aggregate those calls mattered a lot—created a ton of rest for Miami, broke flow of game, and gave a material advantage to Miami. That simply should t happen in nba conference finals games and it did.
oddly, I also thought Miami played better at end; but what I saw is that the game wOuld have turned out differently with an evenplaying field.
I don’t get why this is tolerated:
View: https://twitter.com/gothamgrant/status/1530391514127507457?s=21&t=Z9Bnn2DFp5rUyMwCnxQxHA
Let’s say that Grant still has his dribble there. How do the officials call it if Grant turns, puts the ball on the floor, dribbles towards the corner, and plants his shoulder in the chest of the asshole with his toe on the court?
Would it be called out of bounds off the Celtics with Grant ejected for unsportsmanlike conduct?
View: https://twitter.com/gothamgrant/status/1530391514127507457?s=21&t=Z9Bnn2DFp5rUyMwCnxQxHA
Let’s say that Grant still has his dribble there. How do the officials call it if Grant turns, puts the ball on the floor, dribbles towards the corner, and plants his shoulder in the chest of the asshole with his toe on the court?
Would it be called out of bounds off the Celtics with Grant ejected for unsportsmanlike conduct?
It’s Horford.. and Lowry moved towards him and is obviously screaming right behind him.. looks like the coach is also raising his arms to try and distract Al I’m his peripheral vision.
I wonder if some of the thinking behind the dark uniforms was color contrast with the Heat t-shirts (there was a play earlier in the series when we were wearing the home whites and Smart passed to a teammate in the corner... only no one was there, it was Heat bench players).
It's one thing for the bench players to jaw at the opponent in the corner... it's another thing altogether to wave your arms, stand on the court, crowd the shooter, and do whatever the fuck it is Lowry's doing.
This is all done with intent -- I don't understand why the refs and the league don't shut that shit down.
They're cowards. They fined the Mavs a whopping $100,000 for similar behavior. I'm sure that will teach them!
I see no reason why this isn't reviewable in-game. The first infraction is technical and there should be increasing penalties for each subsequent infraction. The bench mob stuff every team does after a big play is fun. This is just clown behavior.
It would be great if Al went to a “triple threat” stance and swung his elbow backwards to clock Lowry in the face
Agreed, they should face in-game penalties. Techs, foul shots, ejections. Every guy who steps on the court should be tossed. Not only are these players not going to stop, it's going to get worse. Because it gives them an advantage. And if it isn't called, if it isn't stopped, it's legal.
Gotta love that Heat culture.
Lowry would fly 12 rows back into the stands and roll around screaming that his jaw is broken not realizing that he wouldn't be able to scream that his jaw is broken if it was in fact broken.
I wonder whether Celtics will consciously try to provoke contact in game 7 on that, frankly. Though that specific play wasn't commented on by announcers, others where Miami players crowded Celtics players for a corner three were multiple times in a couple games. You'd hope Celtics would talk to league about it and to refs during game.
I would be all for any Celt reaching back and trying to generate contact there. I believe it's an automatic ejection and technical if contact occurs with a player on the court, isn't it?
I would be all for any Celt reaching back and trying to generate contact there. I believe it's an automatic ejection and technical if contact occurs with a player on the court, isn't it?
That would be brilliant and if I had to guess Marcus will do exactly that.
This is what I said in the gamethread before the game. I was right and wrong. the refs called a lot more trying to clean it up. But, the heat shot the lights out.
The NBA is at crossroads where they let too much go to favor the offence, some of the adjustment in officiating has as much to do with lost effectiveness of Harden, Kd, Kyrie as age, etc. I expect the whining by NBA players about France being too physical was not good for global marketing either. So the NBA is allowing more physical D, but like the Pistons then the absurd Reilly Knick defence, teams and players will push the limits.
As a historical fan of hoops, I am really loving seeing the skill of todays players, combined with a more physical play. Some of the finishes with contact this series by Jaylen, Butler, Smart, warm the heart of an old school guy like me.
But, officiating is really hard, especially when the game is changing, and they are having trouble, but I don't see a bias.
The big problems is this return of physical play is put into a culture that has rewarded flopping and allowed unlimited whining. I mean the stars always bitched, but now we have guys in gleague contracts not even dressed are on the floor bitching. Teams have 15 coaches and 15 player benches up on their feet every call. The Celtics have a guy who doesn't start, Grant Williams who throws a fit a runs around the floor three times a game. Plus guys like Lowry (and lets be honest some Celtics too) who fake injuries and are praised for dishonest, faking of contact and injuries.
Consistent with the overall balance of calls, two minute report notes four errors in Miami’s favor and two in Celtics favor.
https://official.nba.com/l2m/L2MReport.html?gameId=0042100306
Also, six missed calls in two minutes—-woof.
https://official.nba.com/l2m/L2MReport.html?gameId=0042100306
Also, six missed calls in two minutes—-woof.
But see, these guys are graded! The NBA takes its product extremely seriously. We surely won't see officials like Tony Brothers, Scott Foster, Zarba, or Eric Lewis for the rest of the playoffs.
The flopping is atrocious and it's definitely hurting the game. The whining is also tough, but it's the flopping that really sucks. Because it's fake. They need to clamp down hard on flopping. Every single play that even looks like 1% of a flop needs to be called. If they do this, they will get rid of flopping. The NHL does this and it's worked quite well.
Obviously they can't start this now but they should start this at the beginning of 2022. Of course, they won't.
The officiating last night was incredibly embarrassing for a league that does a lot right.
I've never seen a game where the national broadcast team openly disagreed with more calls than last night.
A huge problem is Lebron, the GOAT of this generation is one of the worst. We were gifted with Jordan's skills in Karl Malone's body and that winner of every genetic lottery made flopping and acting part of the game.
The heat were fined 25k for the bench behavior. That'll sure teach them not to do it again.
It's completley ridiculous that the league openly admitted that the heat bench players were on the court interfering with play in a conference finals game, and the punishment is a slap on the wrist.
It's completley ridiculous that the league openly admitted that the heat bench players were on the court interfering with play in a conference finals game, and the punishment is a slap on the wrist.
I love how these reports put a bunch of filler "correct no call" nonsense for every 5 seconds of play. Just to make it look like the refs got most of the calls correct.
I wish I got credit at work for being "correct" when I did something totally trivial that is nearly impossible to mess up.
If there is contact against Grant it is an unsportsmanlike technical foul on Miami. If Grant is in his shooting motion when there is contact the basket counts regardless of make (and 3 pts if behind arc) plus the technical foul.
That’s the rule. Currently, I don’t believe there isn’t a rule on the books about the bench standing or screaming so there isn’t anything for the officials to enforce. This is one of those things that surely will come up in the offseason with the rules committee.
Isn’t there a pretty strong rule against being on the actual court during play? No? I’d be stunned if that is not the case. That doesn’t cover people standing out of bounds maybe, but it has to cover the toe on the line coach.
Yeah I’ve seen a technical called when a player was on the court talking smack to an opponent but I’m not sure having a toe on the line is interpreted as being on the court if he didn’t physically interfere with the play. If there was contact and the ref missed the call I’d imagine that is reviewable probably without need for a team to use a challenge. As said in prior post, I’m sure this will all be addressed by the rules committee this summer.
It was the Mavs' 3rd such penalty of this postseason, so it the Heat penalty was always going to be less.
It should be easy enough and non-objectionable to create a rule and paint some lines out of bounds to create a restricted zone as a buffer between the bench area and the playing area which would be in force during play.