Sleuth out who Bill James is talking about - 2011 Sox

Old Fart Tree

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Courtesy of Hesketh on FB. My guess is ellsbury is the selfish one and Aceves (165 ERA+) is the criminal? The chicken and beer crew strikes me as potentially not terribly forward thinking on social issues so that’s my guess. Nuts, papelbon is the rebuttable presumption there. Pot smokers… I’m guessing Miller? Scutaro spent some time in the Bay, didn’t he? So that’s my wild assed guess.

Dammit I forgot to clarify this was the 2011 collapse team.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/BOS/2011.shtml
 
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Kliq

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Sam Ray Not said:
Schilling, Damon, Millar probably check a few of those boxes.
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With the exception of being a position player, literally all of those things describe Schilling. James could be talking about just one person.
 
Mooch

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Sam Ray Not said:
Schilling, Damon, Millar probably check a few of those boxes.
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?

I think James is referring to the 2011 team, right?

I'd bet that Crawford is the nuts one. "In it for himself" would probably be either Beckett or Gonzalez.
 
Jnai

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What does "they should have been there" even mean? Does anyone seriously believe that Bill James has ever stepped foot in the Red Sox locker room? He witnessed precisely zero of any of this.
 
sezwho

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Jnai said:
What does "they should have been there" even mean? Does anyone seriously believe that Bill James has ever stepped foot in the Red Sox locker room? He witnessed precisely zero of any of this.
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Don't ruin this for me :)

He could easily have had direct sources at the time among players or leadership.. (edit) or ownership for that matter.
 
Mooch

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Jnai said:
What does "they should have been there" even mean? Does anyone seriously believe that Bill James has ever stepped foot in the Red Sox locker room? He witnessed precisely zero of any of this.
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You're probably correct. If I remember correctly, James wasn't even in Boston but for a few times per season. His info must have come second hand from Theo and (to a lesser extent Tito).
 
bohous

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Papelebon was clearly nuts. Nobody from the starting 9 stick out as problematic. That pitching staff though had some strong personalities. Beckett, Lackey, Buchholz, Bedard, Aceves, Jenks
 
Smiling Joe Hesketh

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Anyway, my guesses:

Criminal - Aceves, although he could be “nuts” too. Career year in 2011.
Nuts - Papelbon (almost too easy)
Selfish - Beckett, leader of the chicken and beer brigade

Racists: no idea.

The larger point here is that James is saying the team was torn apart from within, that while they were wining they held us together but when things started going bad they imploded because of the factionalism
 
Max Power

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Bill James was on the Poscast recently and was asked about intangibles. He said before he got to the Red Sox he thought it was all a bunch of garbage, but what he saw made him a believer in the value of leadership in winning teams. This must be what he was thinking about.
 
Mooch

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Smiling Joe Hesketh said:
In 2011 he was in Boston quite a bit. He lived in Brookline for a few years. It was later in his tenure with the team that he did most of his work remotely.
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Admittedly, my memory is hazy but I always thought that James did most of his Sox work from Kansas. Maybe that was at the beginning of his tenure though.
 
Jim Ed Rice in HOF

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The puff, puff, pass group has to at least include Clay, Salty and Miller right?

There were a fair amount of rednecks on that team (and really a lot of baseball teams) so the race relations guys have a few possibilities.
 
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tims4wins said:
Mods do what you will but it feels like this should be in P&G
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Why?

It's a legit story broken by a member of the front office who was there. With the Pats out of the playoffs, no MLB movement and the NBA and NHL in its winter doldrums, it wouldn't surprise me if this was a big story this week.
 
Omar's Wacky Neighbor

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Morgan's Magic Snowplow said:
Duh. Morning brainfart.

Yeah, its the 2011 team.
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Don't feel bad, I started doing the same thing: Damon and Millar immediately came to mind. I glossed right over the 2011 part.

pokey_reese said:
Jeez, steal a couple of laptops in high school and some people will never let you forget it...
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Or that he once outran a deer. (I see his name and my kneejerk reactions are: is it spelled correctly, stolen laptops, outran a deer, saw him pitch vs Clemens in Trenton.)
 
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uk_sox_fan

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In 2014 Aceves was suspended from the RailRiders (Scranton/Wilkes-Barre - MFY's AAA affiliate) for recreational drug use and on his Wiki page it asserts that he chose his number 91 because of his admiration for Dennis Rodman. I lean more towards nuts but agree that Paps probably claimed that mantle so he's probably the criminal. I vote for Buchholz as insufficiently sensitive to race relations.
 
tims4wins

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John Marzano Olympic Hero said:
Why?

It's a legit story broken by a member of the front office who was there. With the Pats out of the playoffs, no MLB movement and the NBA and NHL in its winter doldrums, it wouldn't surprise me if this was a big story this week.
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Smiling Joe Hesketh said:
I'm a Dope: this is a Main Board topic.
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Speculating on who is the racist, who is the pot smoker, who is the drunk... just doesn't seem to fit the board's standards. I mean we can't talk about Covid on the sports forums but this is ok? Feels inconsistent.
 
Smiling Joe Hesketh

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In my opinion this is a legitimate Main Board offseason topic.

If you'd like it to be meatier then I'd suggest starting to talk about the impact team dynamics have on performance and the inability of analytics to account for that.

Please take any further questions to Backwash. Thanks.
 
Petagine in a Bottle

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I would look at players who weren’t on the team long to be the ones described. Aceves as the criminal seems obvious. Erik Bedard could be among the described; wasn’t he pretty unpopular? Mike Aviles? Adrian Gonzalez? Bobby Jenks had some issues but was barely on the team. Maybe Dan Wheeler was just a total prick.
 
Minneapolis Millers

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Max Power said:
Bill James was on the Poscast recently and was asked about intangibles. He said before he got to the Red Sox he thought it was all a bunch of garbage, but what he saw made him a believer in the value of leadership in winning teams. This must be what he was thinking about.
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This can’t be quite what he said, because in the initial passage he calls Tek, Wake, Pedey and Papi leaders and “super guys.” Really, he seems to be saying that choosing players who fit in the clubhouse as much as on the field is important, because too many bad apples spoil the pie (or something like that).

Related question for historians/old timers: Which was worse, the 2011 team or the 25 players/25 cabs squads?
 
canderson

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Carl Crawford gets my vote for "it's all about me." Beckett is a good choice but IIRC I've read he put in time for younger pitchers.
 
John Marzano Olympic Hero

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tims4wins said:
Speculating on who is the racist, who is the pot smoker, who is the drunk... just doesn't seem to fit the board's standards. I mean we can't talk about Covid on the sports forums but this is ok? Feels inconsistent.
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It's fine. If you don't want to speculate or don't want to read it, you don't have to.
 
deythur

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From a purely "I've smoked pot for 25 years and think i can sense a smoker" perspective here would be my guesses:
Buch - always seemed spacey
Beckett -did a little partying, LA lifestyle
Miller - stoner vibes
Reddick - aloof, had that look
Salty - always thought this about him even before this

All about himself to me seems like Gonzalez but I could be way off. I just never liked him and he was gone quick. I never felt like he liked Boston.
 
absintheofmalaise

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Smiling Joe Hesketh said:
In my opinion this is a legitimate Main Board offseason topic.

If you'd like it to be meatier then I'd suggest starting to talk about the impact team dynamics have on performance and the inability of analytics to account for that.

Please take any further questions to Backwash. Thanks.
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In total agreement with SJH and @John Marzano Olympic Hero on this.
 
Red(s)HawksFan

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canderson said:
Carl Crawford gets my vote for "it's all about me." Beckett is a good choice but IIRC I've read he put in time for younger pitchers.
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Crawford was the first one that came to mind for me as the in it for himself guy. The biggest thing that jumps out was how he felt about his place in the batting order. The first few games he hit third as if they were trying to justify his contract. Then he led off for a week. Then a few weeks into the season he dropped to 8th and eventually settled into the 6th spot, but he never seemed happy about it. I mean, it's really hard to objectively argue he should have hit higher when the top 5 in the order was fairly consistently Ellsbury, Pedroia, Gonzalez, Youkilis, and Ortiz yet it seemed like a constant discussion.

His whining and vilifying of Boston after he left didn't really help shake the self-centered vibe, either.
 
canderson

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Red(s)HawksFan said:
Crawford was the first one that came to mind for me as the in it for himself guy. The biggest thing that jumps out was how he felt about his place in the batting order. The first few games he hit third as if they were trying to justify his contract. Then he led off for a week. Then a few weeks into the season he dropped to 8th and eventually settled into the 6th spot, but he never seemed happy about it. I mean, it's really hard to objectively argue he should have hit higher when the top 5 in the order was fairly consistently Ellsbury, Pedroia, Gonzalez, Youkilis, and Ortiz yet it seemed like a constant discussion.

His whining and vilifying of Boston after he left didn't really help shake the self-centered vibe, either.
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My least favorite Sox player, ever.
 
CR67dream

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absintheofmalaise said:
In total agreement with SJH and @John Marzano Olympic Hero on this.
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As am I.

There was one post in this thread made immediately before T4W's comment that directly referenced a particular politician and made inferences that were well beyond the the scope of this conversation, and forum, and clearly did not belong here. That post is gone now. It would not have been any more appropriate in P&G than here, as it was straight up V&N. Avoid that type of blatant bullshit and there are no worries.

It is perfectly cromulent to have this discussion here absent that kind of crap.
 
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curly2

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This got me to call up the 2011 team on BB Ref. There was a guy named Drew Sutton who played 31 games and had 60 plate appearances. I have no recollection of him at all. At lot of times I look at a team page and see an unfamiliar name and go, "Oh yeah, that guy," even if they just got in two or three games. Not Drew Sutton, even though in his 60 PAs he put up .315/.362/.444.
 
John Marzano Olympic Hero

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It's interesting that James singles out Varitek, Wakefield, Pedroia and Ortiz as "the good guys" on the team; but neglects Youkilis and Lester, who we've all thought were "good guys". I wonder if that was done consciously?

And while Crawford is probably the one who was "in it for himself", it wouldn't surprise me if Lackey wore those horns too. JD Drew could appear that way too. The more I think about it, the more lonely that outfield was. Crawford never seemed to fit in or look happy, Ellsbury seemed to be plotting his escape and next big contract, Drew seemed like a baseball robot. Obviously, this is all psycho analysis from the cheap seats--and why I used the word "seemed".
 
RG33

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My votes:

In it for himself: Adrian Gonzalez
Nuts: Alfredo Aceves
Racist: Bobby Jenks
Criminal: Hideki Okajima (I kid)
 
Frisbetarian

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Jnai said:
What does "they should have been there" even mean? Does anyone seriously believe that Bill James has ever stepped foot in the Red Sox locker room? He witnessed precisely zero of any of this.
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To the best of my knowledge, this is 100% correct. There is very little chance Bill James ever was in the Red Sox locker room before or after a game, and less chance he witnessed any of this.
 
Yelling At Clouds

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Red(s)HawksFan said:
His whining and vilifying of Boston after he left didn't really help shake the self-centered vibe, either.
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If it’s true that there were suspicions that there were players who were - quoting Bill James, here - “insufficiently committed to good relations between the races,” then a lot of those after-the-fact comments from Crawford make a lot more sense to me.
 
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