2021-2022 Yankees Offseason Discussion
- Thread starter jon abbey
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Two years left for Olson, 1 1/3 for Gallo, both very good defensive players. NY could start a package with Gleyber and Voit, both of whom OAK could showcase and maybe deal for more later, and then add prospects.
Find any of the hundred tweets out there, all pointing to Yankees being the heavy hitters on Correa or Seager and met with Correa's agent last night. I hope, REALLY hope, they don't get Correa. These contracts are going to devastate the team in a couple of years.
Still want no part of Correa. Open to Seager, depending on price. Excited about potentially adding Olson.
I'm worried that the Yankees will squander opportunities for the young SS they have developing. I think less chance of that with Seager than Correa, but who knows.
I'm worried that the Yankees will squander opportunities for the young SS they have developing. I think less chance of that with Seager than Correa, but who knows.
The shocking thing is that nobody seems to be really concerned with the CBA talks and are proceeding normally for now. Interesting and not sure if that's a good sign or not.
They probably can't squander because they will need young and cheap players. So, the only option is (over)pay a SS today and convince them that part of the bargain is moving to 3b in 2-4 years.
Also Vargas and Arias are both very highly regarded, even if Arias isn't signing until January because he is 16 or 17. I think Seager is a long-term solution at 3B after maybe a year or two at SS, so Peraza or Volpe would still be the SS.
Get Brian on the phone and make it happen Abbey. We know you have his number.
Unless the numbers are stupid.
Maybe the numbers are stupid.
NY brought back Joely Rodriguez for $2M after they turned down the $3M option, so the 40 man is full. Not a fan of that at all, he has no options left and is not good against righties.
View: https://twitter.com/joelsherman1/status/1458633552325578760?s=21
View: https://twitter.com/joelsherman1/status/1458633552325578760?s=21
I don’t care about the money but I dislike losing the roster flexibility in the bullpen for a guy who struggles getting out RHH. Maybe they plan to trade Chad Green’s final year.
Green has had his ups and downs, but the idea of signing Joely and trading Chad makes me sad.
But I know the organization has had success finding bullpen solutions when they've needed to, so I guess in Cashman I trust.
But I know the organization has had success finding bullpen solutions when they've needed to, so I guess in Cashman I trust.
Why not sign Story for a few years, or even one of Correa/Seager and flip the young SS for Luis Castillo? Is Dominguez a CF? I always thought he would be a natural replacement for Judge. The Sale trade pushed the Sox over the edge, isn't it the time to be bold with your current roster?
Why not just sign a FA SP also? NY is going to need cost-controlled guys if they are spending all this money in so many places, Peraza and Volpe can both start alongside a new SS at 2B/SS/3B (Volpe won't be ready for another year or two).
He is 18 and had his hands full in low A, he is a few years away. He is looking more like a corner OF by the time he gets to the bigs than a CF at this point, but it is early.
Running a baseball team isn't like a light switch, it's not on or off. It does seem like NY will be doing their version of going for it this winter though.
Sad to see that list used in the context of failure.
Can we admit now that the injuries to Andujar and Frazier were a crucial blow to a team that seemed ready to break through? They appeared to be power hitters with level swings.
Always loved Frazier's bat, but where are the Yanks at with him at this point. Is he a need a change of scenery guy? Even when he was healthy it seemed the Yanks were reluctant to go all in on him. I know the concussion issue is serious, how is his health? What is his trade value?
Both are really bad defensive players though, the mistake was not trading Andujar right after his big season.
Something was going on with him healthwise that no one has announced publicly, I don’t think it was post-concussion issues. The way they’re talking around it, it’s like it was Lyme disease or something like that (a complete guess on my part), he has close to no trade value at this point, I guess.
FWIW, I haven’t seen anyone talk about NY trading Chad Green but it does make sense if they can get value for him. Guys like Abreu or Ridings could easily break through to that level if given the chance, and they are both optionable. Green only has one year of control left, might as well get something back.
View: https://twitter.com/brendankutynj/status/1458878538237366274?s=21
View: https://twitter.com/brendankutynj/status/1458878538237366274?s=21
I'd argue Gleyber was the biggest factor on that list because he didn't hold up defensively OR offensively. We thought SS was solved for years to come.
Well, hoped.
We had plenty of discussion here wondering if Gleyber would stick at SS when the decision was first made. It was a while ago, but I think the consensus was "hopeful" more than "solved".
Edit: But I think that was almost completely based on defense. I don't think anyone anticipated that his offense would crater to the extent that it did.
We had plenty of discussion here wondering if Gleyber would stick at SS when the decision was first made. It was a while ago, but I think the consensus was "hopeful" more than "solved".
Edit: But I think that was almost completely based on defense. I don't think anyone anticipated that his offense would crater to the extent that it did.
Yeah. But for young players, I want to see a trend line steadily climbing upward, not reset at a lower, shittier level. Not really want. Demand. I demand it.
All joking aside, based on his age, I think we really did have high hopes that Gleyber would steadily improve on what could be a very special bat. Gary too. To a lesser extent maybe Clint and Andujar as well. Defensive questions for all of them, sure. But I know I had more faith in their bats a year or two ago than now.
And while there is still time for all of them to be great, expectations have to be lower now.
All joking aside, based on his age, I think we really did have high hopes that Gleyber would steadily improve on what could be a very special bat. Gary too. To a lesser extent maybe Clint and Andujar as well. Defensive questions for all of them, sure. But I know I had more faith in their bats a year or two ago than now.
And while there is still time for all of them to be great, expectations have to be lower now.
It was pretty obvious Gleyber couldn’t play SS adequately almost immediately, it was also obvious from the second they signed DJ that both DJ and Gleyber were far better fits at 2B than anywhere else.
It was obvious after Andujar’s rookie season that he should be a DH (possibly a LF or 1B, but he had never played either) on a team that already had a long-term DH in Stanton.
It was obvious since at least 2019 that Sanchez should be paired with someone potentially able to step into the primary C role if needed, like D’Arnaud or Maldonado.
I am pro-Cashman but these are all moves that should have been made years ago.
It was obvious after Andujar’s rookie season that he should be a DH (possibly a LF or 1B, but he had never played either) on a team that already had a long-term DH in Stanton.
It was obvious since at least 2019 that Sanchez should be paired with someone potentially able to step into the primary C role if needed, like D’Arnaud or Maldonado.
I am pro-Cashman but these are all moves that should have been made years ago.
What if NY totally went a different direction from what everyone is expecting and didn't add a $200-$300M SS? Trade Gleyber/Voit plus prospects for Olson, sign Starling Marte and Max Scherzer, and go with an infield of Gio, Peraza, DJ and Olson. Just a thought...
I'm already on record as not liking the idea of a huge contract SS. I'm fine with rolling the dice on Peraza if they are confident he'll be good defensively. I don't think Velazquez hurt the team and it would fun to see if Peraza's higher offensive upside could manifest early as we all watch.
Getting Olson and spreading the money around outside of SS sounds great too. I'd sign up for some variation of that in a heartbeat.
Getting Olson and spreading the money around outside of SS sounds great too. I'd sign up for some variation of that in a heartbeat.
They don't even have to go in THAT different of a direction. There are shortstops available who are quite adequate. Do I want Andrelton Simmons or Story? Not particularly. But they would be nice pieces to cover the position.
Yes, but you’re talking about a world where every move a GM makes must be a winner. Does that world actually exist?
As for Andujar, he had a chance to be Alfonso Soriano, maybe have that kind of career, move from infield to OF and then to DH. He couldn’t even stay healthy.
Fielding can be improved through hard work and special coaching. But some guys are just hopeless in the field. Miguel couldn’t throw the ball accurately across the diamond. Torres and Miggy could both have fixed their fielding to the point where they were adequate. That’s all you can ask of a hitter. Just at least be adequate in the field.
This is my position, too. Grow your own shortstop! I hate it when prospects are a year away, two or three of them, and the Yankees chase another big salary. I thought Cashman got off that train to nowhere.
I mean, obviously it is easier for me to sit at my desk in my sweatpants and make suggestions with no real-world ramifications than it is for Cashman to make real-world moves, but I am absolutely not talking about a world where every move a GM makes must be a winner. I named a few situations that have been really obvious problems for years and have still not really been addressed, and not addressing those has hurt the team quite a bit, both in terms of recent performance and in asset devaluation. If you look at my initial posts in the offseason threads for the past few seasons, I have been talking about all of these moves for years. I'm not second-guessing, I'm first-guessing (I know you know this).
OK, I am going to take a shot at an offseason plan, mostly because I am curious to see just how pricy it will be even without one of the big SSs. Arb players' salaries are from the MLBTR estimates (https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2021/10/projected-arbitration-salaries-for-2022.html)
NY trades Gleyber, Voit, Deivi, Gil and Oswaldo Cabrera for Matt Olson (two years remaining).
NY signs Justin Verlander for 2/46.
NY signs Starling Marte for 3/54.
NY trades Chad Green (one year left) for prospect/s.
Marte CF ($18M)
Judge RF ($17.1M)
Olson 1B ($12M)
Stanton DH ($22M)
Sanchez C ($7.9M)
Gallo LF ($10.2M)
LeMahieu 2B ($15M)
Urshela 3B ($6.2M)
Peraza SS
bench: Hicks ($10M), Higgy ($1.2M), Wade ($700K), Gittens
Cole ($36M)
Verlander ($23M)
Taillon ($4.7M)
Montgomery ($4.8M)
Severino ($10M)
(next up: German, Cortes, Schmidt, King)
German ($2.1M)
Luetge ($1.1M)
Abreu
Rodriguez ($2m)
Peralta ($1.7M)
Holmes ($1.0M)
Loaisiga ($1.7M)
Chapman ($17.5M)
minors: Cortes, King, Schmidt, Ridings, Nelson
hurt: Britton ($14M)
=========================
So that comes in around $238-$240M plus the 40 man players/player benefits adds $18.2M, putting them at $256-$258M which seems completely possible given what Cashman has been saying this week, obviously pending a new CBA.
NY trades Gleyber, Voit, Deivi, Gil and Oswaldo Cabrera for Matt Olson (two years remaining).
NY signs Justin Verlander for 2/46.
NY signs Starling Marte for 3/54.
NY trades Chad Green (one year left) for prospect/s.
Marte CF ($18M)
Judge RF ($17.1M)
Olson 1B ($12M)
Stanton DH ($22M)
Sanchez C ($7.9M)
Gallo LF ($10.2M)
LeMahieu 2B ($15M)
Urshela 3B ($6.2M)
Peraza SS
bench: Hicks ($10M), Higgy ($1.2M), Wade ($700K), Gittens
Cole ($36M)
Verlander ($23M)
Taillon ($4.7M)
Montgomery ($4.8M)
Severino ($10M)
(next up: German, Cortes, Schmidt, King)
German ($2.1M)
Luetge ($1.1M)
Abreu
Rodriguez ($2m)
Peralta ($1.7M)
Holmes ($1.0M)
Loaisiga ($1.7M)
Chapman ($17.5M)
minors: Cortes, King, Schmidt, Ridings, Nelson
hurt: Britton ($14M)
=========================
So that comes in around $238-$240M plus the 40 man players/player benefits adds $18.2M, putting them at $256-$258M which seems completely possible given what Cashman has been saying this week, obviously pending a new CBA.
You are definitely a first-guesser. And the information you provide is like Cliff’s Notes for the rest of us, or at least a road map to more information. I’m just saying certain positions can be hard to fix, beginning with catching. Is there an explanation for the falloff in talent at catcher over the years? The Yankees have almost always had a great catcher. I expect to have good catching and that is what makes the Sanchez years so disappointing. Same for starting pitching. Here we go again. Sign Verlander, hope he stays healthy as he turns 40.
Poor Abreu and Peraza, making literally nothing.
Jon, one thing I can say for you (among other compliments) is that you are very fair. You don't throw out stupid fanboy trade ideas. Like to get Olson (who I'm on record here as saying he'd be perfect for the Yankees), you offer a really good package that is totally fair. You think clearly about what the Yankees have and what they need and how to take what they have and get what they need. I have no idea how good you are with people in the real world (which would be part of being a GM, obviously) but here in the abstract, you have a great handle on things, and, being a Red Sox fan, I'm really glad that a lot of your ideas don't end up happening for the Yankees.
I hope you guys don't mind that when I see "Peraza" I think you have José and I laugh to myself, just a little.
I completely agree, which is why I said Cashman needed to go after one or both of D'Arnaud and Maldonado after 2019 (I pushed for Salvador Perez very hard at one point too as you'll recall but maybe even at his lowest he was never really available). D'Arnaud signed for 2/16 and another 2/16 for 2022/2023 this past summer, Maldonado signed for 2/7 and another 1/5.5 for 2022 this past summer. They were the two starting catchers in this year's WS and their teams have both won divisions each of the past two seasons. Cashman's mistake here seems to have been combining the two individually understandable positions of 1) I don't want to give up on Sanchez and 2) Higgy given his elite pitch-framing is a fine cheap backup, with no options left into not upgrading, when the obvious move was that at the minimum, upgrade alongside Sanchez if you don't want to replace him.
Also somehow it is impossible to develop catchers now, veteran catchers are harder to replace adequately. BOS fans spent the middle 80 percent or so of the season dreaming about dumping Vazquez but of course he will be back. Anyway, that one is frustrating because it seemed an obvious upgrade at the time, completely doable money and personnel-wise, and just not done. I'm here for you, Brian, but you need to pay more attention to my instincts, heh.
I think pitchers have increasingly insane stuff, we saw that one postseason a few years ago where pitchers all seemed to get so amped up and even the best defensive catchers were struggling stopping all the crazy bounces and high fliers coming at them. Plus teams are so good at stealing signs (legally and illegally) that catchers have to throw so much constant mental energy on that side of things too, it must be incredibly mentally and physically draining, Posey just retired at 34 from a team that just won 107 games. We saw some games late in the season where Sanchez sat out the first half and came in after the SP was knocked out, and he looked awesome defensively late in those, so maybe a conditioning thing.
I think the points JA brings up are all part of it, but I'd add that I think more use of a one-knee stance in order to steal more strikes also contributes.
If so, analytics probably support the trade off being worth it. And I'd guess that very mobile, athletic guys can pull it off a lot better with fewer passed balls than a bigger, maybe stiffer guy like Gary.
But again, even if the numbers support it, I just wonder if there is some extra (mental) wear and tear for catchers who can't do it as well and if screwing up more in front of God and everyone with every passed ball takes a toll on other parts of their game. Like Gleyber struggling at SS.
I think you can also add in how many pitchers they are catching every night. Catchers now need to know what 8 different pitchers might want to throw to a certain hitter every night. The mental aspect of catching, which has always been high, has increased dramatically with the way pitchers are used be the data available.
Bowden seems to be most active with Yankees rumors so far. Apparently Yankees are very hot on Olson. I would jump for joy. Not sure there's a single move I want more this offseason than getting Olson.