Pats trade Gilmore to Carolina

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
47,094
I’m convinced they kept him at the deadline because they were planning to trade him in the off-season. Then, post-injury his value dropped. Same reason there were reportedly no takers prior to release.

Quad injury was costly.
Yup. The quad injury killed the Pats. Just absolutely killed them.
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
34,464
Obviously in hindsight they should have traded him last year, but it was reasonable not to at the time. He had a full year left and they probably were considering giving him a new deal, and the market would have been broader in an offseason deal if not. Then he gets a serious injury... tough luck.

As to trade value now.... he likely had none, he's a guy who hasn't played in months off injury who wants a new contract. Guys who were playing at a decent level like Collins and Smith are getting cut because nobody will trade for them, a guy who hasn't played in 10 months isn't gonna have a market.
 

pokey_reese

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 25, 2008
16,253
Boston, MA
According to ESPN:
The Patriots were roughly $54,000 under the salary cap and now will find themselves with an additional $5.8 million in cap space.
So if they didn't think he was going to play (or play well), and they need that cap space to bolster the surprisingly inept O line, then releasing Gilmore to go try and get what he wants on the open market while saving that much cash may be win-win.
 

PedroKsBambino

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 17, 2003
31,212
View: https://twitter.com/philaperry/status/1445731322572464132?s=21


Phil Perry on Twitter:
“Something that was just suggested to me that by one rival front office: Getting news of the Stephon Gilmore release out there now, well before it becomes official at 4pm, a team could still swoop in and make a trade. Time to do that if a club wants to make sure it gets him.”
That's pretty interesting and makes sense: teams with cap space and (basically) Tampa might figure they have a good shot when he is a FA, but if you're about 20ish other teams a trade is only way you get him. I hope that works!
 

Mystic Merlin

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 21, 2007
46,775
Hartford, CT
Do they need offensive line help badly and want to free up the cash to go after one of the FA's out there right now (Schwartz, Okung, Wagner)? Other than that, I don't know what is going on.
Need space to bring Collins on, as well as any other moves they make - and there will be some - over the next month or so.

Gilmore is not the first or last player whose trade market was dry because he wants a new deal and is coming off an injury. I would’ve been fine trading him last year before or during the season, but I understood keeping him because he was still really good and plays a critical position. Quad injury blew up both his and the team’s plans. I don’t agree that not trading him pre injury was some massive fuckup in hindsight, that’s not really how you plan a roster.
 

joe dokes

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
30,243
That's pretty interesting and makes sense: teams with cap space and (basically) Tampa might figure they have a good shot when he is a FA, but if you're about 20ish other teams a trade is only way you get him. I hope that works!
True, but if no one wanted his contract yesterday, why would they want it today?
 

SeoulSoxFan

I Want to Hit the World with Rocket Punch
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jun 27, 2006
22,089
A Scud Away from Hell
Teams already knew Gilmore was available but no one stepped up. Why would a GM do so now?

I have to think that BB (and SB?) saw enough good things from the secondary vs TB to have made this move.
 

joe dokes

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
30,243
I don't think it's a "getting the band back together" fetish. Multiple reports have indicated that BB thinks it's (at least) a two-year rebuild, so bringing in KVN and Collins is more about plugging holes with players who can step right in. There are plenty of other "new guys" that are contributing to a lack of cohesion at the moment.
Although he's perfectly wiling to let guys go, BB has always brought back players on their last legs to convey to the new guys "how its done."
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
34,464
Titans see
Teams already knew Gilmore was available but no one stepped up. Why would a GM do so now?

I have to think that BB (and SB?) saw enough good things from the secondary vs TB to have made this move.
It's happened before. Happens in the NBA a lot too. It's the last play, usually doesn't work, but sometimes can.
Usually it's a team that was on the fence about trading for a guy, then touches base with his agent, finds themselves not his top choice and decides to send some small value to jump the team #1 on his list.

To be honest I think TEN should trade a late pick for him. They're a playoff team just because of the division they are in, but the secondary badly needs help, and they'd get to test drive Gilmore, plus if he's a FA I doubt TEN would be his first choice.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

posts way less than 18% useful shit
SoSH Member
Nov 17, 2010
14,429
Except that, unless he was willing to retire, he had to come back at some point in order to become a FA at the end of the season. The Pats had the option of holding him, having him come back for the last third, and then letting him walk and getting a comp pick. If the Pats turned their season around enough to get back into the plyoff hunt, they would be getting Gilmore back right when he was most valuable to them. But they chose not to do that. I guess that means getting the money was more valuable to them than late-season Gilmore and eventual comp pick.
Not accurate.

Hes currently on PUP, meaning hes considered injured. If he was just sitting out? Sure. But he could spend the entire season saying he wasnt physically ready to play. The quad surgery provided the loophole needed to count this as an accrued season.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

posts way less than 18% useful shit
SoSH Member
Nov 17, 2010
14,429
Titans see

It's happened before. Happens in the NBA a lot too. It's the last play, usually doesn't work, but sometimes can.
Usually it's a team that was on the fence about trading for a guy, then touches base with his agent, finds themselves not his top choice and decides to send some small value to jump the team #1 on his list.

To be honest I think TEN should trade a late pick for him. They're a playoff team just because of the division they are in, but the secondary badly needs help, and they'd get to test drive Gilmore, plus if he's a FA I doubt TEN would be his first choice.
This play isnt going to work.

Any team Gilmore doesnt want to play for, he'll simply tell them hes unsure if his quad will be ready at all this season.

Gilmore's team played this well.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
24,386
This play isnt going to work.

Any team Gilmore doesnt want to play for, he'll simply tell them hes unsure if his quad will be ready at all this season.

Gilmore's team played this well.
Players don't have a ton of leverage in these situations, but Gilmore seems to have used whatever leverage he did have very very well.
 

NickEsasky

Please Hammer, Don't Hurt 'Em
Silver Supporter
SoSH Member
Jul 24, 2001
9,191
I don't think it's a "getting the band back together" fetish. Multiple reports have indicated that BB thinks it's (at least) a two-year rebuild, so bringing in KVN and Collins is more about plugging holes with players who can step right in. There are plenty of other "new guys" that are contributing to a lack of cohesion at the moment.

As has been mentioned previously, as soon as Brady said "Adios", Gilmore should have been traded. Too late now.
Just curious, where were these reports? I haven't seen anything but there is a lot of media I don't have time to consume.
 

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
18,100
Not accurate.

Hes currently on PUP, meaning hes considered injured. If he was just sitting out? Sure. But he could spend the entire season saying he wasnt physically ready to play. The quad surgery provided the loophole needed to count this as an accrued season.
He did report to training camp and was placed on the active/PUP list. The team would have had options if it felt he was faking his injury, so it's clear he wasn't faking it. He could have theoretically try holding out after being activated from the reserve/PUP, but that would be akin to a player holding out part way through the season, which just doesn't happen in the NFL.
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
34,464
This play isnt going to work.

Any team Gilmore doesnt want to play for, he'll simply tell them hes unsure if his quad will be ready at all this season.

Gilmore's team played this well.
Oh I doubt it works.

Though there are levels to interest usually. If Gilmore has only 1 team he'll play for then he'll force his way there. In these situations where there is a trade though, it's usually a question of him having a list of teams he WOULD play for, and your team is on it, but you think that there is a team he'd prefer, so you make the deal to make sure you get him.
 

PedroKsBambino

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 17, 2003
31,212
Titans see

It's happened before. Happens in the NBA a lot too. It's the last play, usually doesn't work, but sometimes can.
Usually it's a team that was on the fence about trading for a guy, then touches base with his agent, finds themselves not his top choice and decides to send some small value to jump the team #1 on his list.

To be honest I think TEN should trade a late pick for him. They're a playoff team just because of the division they are in, but the secondary badly needs help, and they'd get to test drive Gilmore, plus if he's a FA I doubt TEN would be his first choice.
Agreed, good chance it doesn't work but it is a play you run when you don't have anything else.

The reason a team might offer something now is three things for me:

1) the asking price surely is lower today than it was yesterday from the Pats
2) whereas yesterday teams imagined the Pats alternative might be to keep him, today they know he's going to be a FA and so perception of the probability you get a deal goes up
3) given he's going to become a FA you are now competing with others for him on contract/situation grounds---and teams who can't win on that might prefer to be the incumbent. So if you are Tampa you figure you'll win if he's a FA (so you won't offer more than yesterday) but if you are (say) Packers you might figure your only chance is gettign him for a 6th in trade
 

Mooch

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
4,494
I don't think it's a "getting the band back together" fetish. Multiple reports have indicated that BB thinks it's (at least) a two-year rebuild, so bringing in KVN and Collins is more about plugging holes with players who can step right in. There are plenty of other "new guys" that are contributing to a lack of cohesion at the moment.

As has been mentioned previously, as soon as Brady said "Adios", Gilmore should have been traded. Too late now.
I don't know if it's a two-year rebuild but I can tell you that I have a second-hand connection to a current Patriots defensive player who has told his family that this year at the very least is a "reset" year and most of the roster knows it.
 

jsinger121

@jsinger121
SoSH Member
Jul 25, 2005
17,677
I don't know if it's a two-year rebuild but I can tell you that I have a second-hand connection to a current Patriots defensive player who has told his family that this year at the very least is a "reset" year and most of the roster knows it.
Thats not surprising at all. There are holes everywhere on this roster including OL, DL, LB, WR, CB. I’m not sure this team wins more than 6 games this season
 

RSN Diaspora

molests goats for comedy
SoSH Member
Jul 29, 2005
11,355
Washington, DC
If the quad is bad, or even still just a question mark, that is going to really hamper his trade value; a CB with a gimpy quad doesn't offer a whole of utility. Probably only a small handful of teams that could squeeze him in and hope he recovers in time to contribute, and they may not have been willing to trade a draft pick for him. Like everything, there's details yet to come out that will give us a more complete picture of the situation.
All of this is true, and none of it is saving my post-Red Sox high from being ruined.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
24,386
If the quad is bad, or even still just a question mark, that is going to really hamper his trade value; a CB with a gimpy quad doesn't offer a whole of utility. Probably only a small handful of teams that could squeeze him in and hope he recovers in time to contribute, and they may not have been willing to trade a draft pick for him. Like everything, there's details yet to come out that will give us a more complete picture of the situation.
Or like in the Malcolm Butler situation, we may never know the real story.
 

RG33

Certain Class of Poster
SoSH Member
Nov 28, 2005
7,199
CA
I hope Gilmore’s first 6 games with KC or Tampa are as good as his first 6 games with the Patriots.

Thanks again for that incredible pass break-up in the AFCCG.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
24,386
Gilmore was great for the Pats. Sad to see him go. I also hope that the secondary can be strong without him. So far they've been solid. The defense is #6 in the NFL in points allowed, #5 in the NFL in yards allowed. And that's without creating a lot of turnovers or having their offense give them tons of help (#27 in points, #26 in yards).

NE's pass defense ranks:
#4 in pass yds/game (185.0)
#3 in pass completion % (56.5%)
#6 in net pass yds/att (6.5)
#2 in passer rating (67.6)
#10 in sacks (10)

To be fair, they've played three of the five worst passing offenses in the NFL (NO, NYJ, Mia), so that obviously helps. But they also did a pretty nice job against Tampa, all things considered. In better weather, maybe Brady shreds them. Probably. But who knows. The pass D made some plays. So maybe their pass defense is actually pretty solid even without Gilmore.
 

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
18,100
Or like in the Malcolm Butler situation, we may never know the real story.
I think we've learned enough from various nuggets to put together a reasonable explanation for the Butler situation, and Wickersham's book excerpts seem to confirm some of the priors.

We'll probably be able to read between the lines if and when Gilmore hooks up with a new team and eventually returns to the field. The reality is that if he wanted to hold out, reporting to training camp and then going straight to PUP is a strange way to do it given the NFL's rules and the huge leverage the team has in those situations.

I'm assuming from the media reports on the Pats cap savings that Gilmore's 2021 salary did not guarantee in Week 1 despite being a vested veteran, which I assume is because he was on PUP. And players on IR cannot be released without a settlement, so it would seem strange that the same rules would not apply to a player on PUP. I guess we will know by 4pm.
 

rodderick

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 24, 2009
12,751
Belo Horizonte - Brazil
I don't know if it's a two-year rebuild but I can tell you that I have a second-hand connection to a current Patriots defensive player who has told his family that this year at the very least is a "reset" year and most of the roster knows it.
Really? Highest draft position in 20 years, most money ever spent in free agency and most of the roster has a "reset year" mentality? That's disappointing as hell. Most people had the Patriots as a playoff caliber team before the season started, I know the OL has vastly underperformed and the James White injury hurts, but on the other hand I'd say Mac has performed about as well as most people could have reasonably expected him to. What are we resetting to? They won't have money to spend next off-season, so it'll just be a matter of the new guys gelling?
 

Jinhocho

Moderator
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2001
10,283
Durham, NC
I would imagine the Pats have some hard feelings.

1) They gave him an advance last year (good faith offering?).
2) Easy to suspect he could have played this year but has been using injury to combine w holdout
3) Events so far have shown this team will be lucky to make the playoffs
4) Seems a bad idea to give him a long term deal (I had hoped for this year w a bump and next year where the bump was then he gone)
5) No one willing to trade for reasons listed above - he is only going to play for someone who will give him a big long-term deal. Coupled w a murky injury and meh performance last year (compared to his peak) and it seems a lot of risk.

Sad to see this news but not 100% surprised. I had been thinking he return when he had to and either get injured right away or play strong if the team was a contender.
 

Willie Clay's Big Play

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 30, 2017
327
View: https://twitter.com/philaperry/status/1445731322572464132?s=21


Phil Perry on Twitter:
“Something that was just suggested to me that by one rival front office: Getting news of the Stephon Gilmore release out there now, well before it becomes official at 4pm, a team could still swoop in and make a trade. Time to do that if a club wants to make sure it gets him.”
View: https://twitter.com/GregABedard/status/1445752750793396225?s=20

Bedard is saying the Packers are the front runners in making a trade. The rest of the day should be interesting.
 

Captaincoop

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
13,487
Santa Monica, CA
So he's not hurt at this point, right? Because you can't cut someone who is injured.

So he's just flat refusing to play without an extension? The Pats could then remove him from the active roster without pay and his contract would stay frozen for another year.

But they just desperately need the cap space, so he wins the game of chicken? Is that what happened?
 

Mooch

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
4,494
Really? Highest draft position in 20 years, most money ever spent in free agency and most of the roster has a "reset year" mentality? That's disappointing as hell. Most people had the Patriots as a playoff caliber team before the season started, I know the OL has vastly underperformed and the James White injury hurts, but on the other hand I'd say Mac has performed about as well as most people could have reasonably expected him to. What are we resetting to? They won't have money to spend next off-season, so it'll just be a matter of the new guys gelling?
The impression that I got was that it wasn't apparent until the last game or two.
 

CoffeeNerdness

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 6, 2012
8,718
Wait but I read upthread that the Patriots completely messed this up. Will someone please give a me hot take that doesn't get old in a few seconds?
I get that you're the anti-hot take guy, but I'm pretty sure there would have been a much different reaction to the initial reporting if it was stated they were in active trade talks versus him being outright released. I think Adam Schefter is the guy you should be snarking.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 24, 2002
48,214
I get that you're the anti-hot take guy, but I'm pretty sure there would have been a much different reaction to the initial reporting if it was stated they were in active trade talks versus him being outright released.
Exactly...but we never learn. This story is developing and people are on record as grading it as if its all finalized.

And by the way, I am not ruling out that this is the biggest blunder of the Belichick Era and that people in their parents basement may be better suited to coach the team. However I am going to wait a few hours before I start a thread advocating for E5 to become the next HC of the NEP.
 

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
18,100
So he's not hurt at this point, right? Because you can't cut someone who is injured.

So he's just flat refusing to play without an extension? The Pats could then remove him from the active roster without pay and his contract would stay frozen for another year.

But they just desperately need the cap space, so he wins the game of chicken? Is that what happened?
He is still on PUP so cannot play or practice.
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
34,464
Really? Highest draft position in 20 years, most money ever spent in free agency and most of the roster has a "reset year" mentality? That's disappointing as hell. Most people had the Patriots as a playoff caliber team before the season started, I know the OL has vastly underperformed and the James White injury hurts, but on the other hand I'd say Mac has performed about as well as most people could have reasonably expected him to. What are we resetting to? They won't have money to spend next off-season, so it'll just be a matter of the new guys gelling?
We have a rookie QB, it's basically assured to be a rebuilding year once you decide to go with a rookie QB
 

CoffeeNerdness

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 6, 2012
8,718
Breer:

The Patriots shopped CB Stephon Gilmore to a small group of teams they trust on Monday, per sources. They tried to be quiet on it. Asking price/Gilmore's desire for a new deal = no deal.

By getting the "release" out there early today, Pats are trying to smoke out other offers.
This seems so odd. They only have a small group of teams they trust and rather than reaching out to teams they don't trust once they don't find a partner they feed Schefter a story to generate interest.

"Bill, buddy, what's happened to the old fashion phone call? Anyway, heard about Stephon. Shame about that..." - Brian Gutekunst