Celtics Plan, Summer 2021

RorschachsMask

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The Lakers also included some legit players in that deal: Ingram, Ball and Hart.
They did, but at the time Lonzo had lost a bunch of value, and Ingram had issues with blood clots and his future was murky.

Smart/Rob/Nesmith/TT/3 picks/2 swaps? I know people wouldn’t do that many picks, but look at what the Bucks gave up for Holiday.
 

benhogan

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They did, but at the time Lonzo had lost a bunch of value, and Ingram had issues with blood clots and his future was murky.

Smart/Rob/Nesmith/TT/3 picks/2 swaps? I know people wouldn’t do that many picks, but look at what the Bucks gave up for Holiday.
If you're adding Beal while keeping Jays then the 1sts shouldn't be of any concern. What's the delta between late 1sts and early 2nds (which can be purchased).

for example, OKC has 3 1sts + 3 2nds in 2021. Pistons have Cade + 3 2nds. They really don't have the roster spots for all those rookies. Owners that tank like the Summer payday
 

TripleOT

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So the Nets acquire Harden for a couple of role players and some probable late firsts, but the Celts are going to have to move Jaylen Brown to get Beal?

Beal holds all the cards here. If he wants to go to Boston, he’s going to end up in Boston, either by forcing a trade for a pu pu platter of players, plus picks, or by going there as a FA next summer.

Would Smart, (Olympic scoring hero) Fournier on a S and T, either Romeo/Nesmith, three number ones, and a pick swap get it done?

I understand GS and Philly can put together a better deal for the Wiz, but those teams may not want to strip away assets for a one year rental.
 

nighthob

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GSW wouldn’t be able to sign him to an extension though right?
I guess they could but their luxury tax bill would be fucking mammoth for the duration of the contract
Beal isn’t going to sign an extension, which is why the Golden State package won’t include all three assets.
 

the moops

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They did, but at the time Lonzo had lost a bunch of value, and Ingram had issues with blood clots and his future was murky.

Smart/Rob/Nesmith/TT/3 picks/2 swaps? I know people wouldn’t do that many picks, but look at what the Bucks gave up for Holiday.
MIL only gave up two 1st round picks and two swaps. And the 1st rounders aren't until 2025 and 2027. Milwaukee did include Bledsoe and Hill, but I would think Bledsoe was negative value and Hill was an expiring.

A comparable trade would something like Smart, TT, filler and the same picks/swaps
 

cheech13

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MIL only gave up two 1st round picks and two swaps. And the 1st rounders aren't until 2025 and 2027. Milwaukee did include Bledsoe and Hill, but I would think Bledsoe was negative value and Hill was an expiring.

A comparable trade would something like Smart, TT, filler and the same picks/swaps
Bradley Beal is a much better player than Jrue Holiday and will fetch a much bigger trade package. Beal will return less than Davis or Harden but Holiday is not a good comp, IMO.
 

Sam Ray Not

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Bradley Beal is a much better player than Jrue Holiday and will fetch a much bigger trade package. Beal will return less than Davis or Harden but Holiday is not a good comp, IMO.
He’s the much better *scorer* — which, yeah, tends to have more value in trades and in contracts.

In terms of actual, overall impact on the scoreboard over their careers, Jrue has been the slightly better player.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Bradley Beal is a much better player than Jrue Holiday and will fetch a much bigger trade package. Beal will return less than Davis or Harden but Holiday is not a good comp, IMO.
I think you are really underselling Jrue’s value in this league. He wasn’t signed to a Max contract extension this year bc Bradley Beal is a much better player. They do different things but value wise I don’t see a ton of difference.
 

BigMike

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MIL only gave up two 1st round picks and two swaps. And the 1st rounders aren't until 2025 and 2027. Milwaukee did include Bledsoe and Hill, but I would think Bledsoe was negative value and Hill was an expiring.

A comparable trade would something like Smart, TT, filler and the same picks/swaps
But ultimately it boils down to what teams are willing to offer, and most likely there will be more bidders than in a Jrue deal were,.

So Celtics ultimately need to be willing able to outbid other teams.

say GS is willing to trade Wiseman. My opinion Celtics have no one (other than Tatum/Brown), even remotely in that class of asset.
Say GS is willing to trade #7, I'd argue that is more valuable than all 3 future Celtics picks combined. (also including future unused swaps)
The I guess you have Smart vs Wiggine or Oubre (in a S&T). Smart is better, but all 3 would probably just be pass through and dealt elsewhere for a future #1 and some cap flotsam.

I think GS could offer Wiseman/Wiggins /#7 even if it is unclear Beal would resign, and the Celtics can't beat that offer without Brown. And of course GS could offer more than just that in terms of young players, and picks(and futures)
 

RSN

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Lol, gotta love clipping the vid right after Zach Lowe says "Golden State..."

What about something like...

BOS gets Beal + #14
WAS gets Wiseman + #7 + Oubre S/T + future GS picks
GS gets Cal's own Jaylen Brown

?
I live in NorCal and the Warriors are my second team. Jaylen would fit really well on that team. I hope he stays in Boston
 

Auger34

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If this is a case where Beal is open to GS and PHI I don’t think that Boston can match up with what they can offer.

Beal has to demand to come here and then you offer up Horford and basically every pick imaginable.
 

Auger34

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Lol, gotta love clipping the vid right after Zach Lowe says "Golden State..."

What about something like...

BOS gets Beal + #14
WAS gets Wiseman + #7 + Oubre S/T + future GS picks
GS gets Cal's own Jaylen Brown

?
That trade makes sense in value but it also doesn’t make sense. Is Bosron any closer to a title with that trade? I’d argue no…and you’ve now got an older player on a worse contract as your 2nd banana.
 

the moops

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I think every team in the league would take 3 future first round picks over #7 this year. Also think plenty of teams would take 3 future first round picks over Wiseman
 

Auger34

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I think every team in the league would take 3 future first round picks over #7 this year. Also think plenty of teams would take 3 future first round picks over Wiseman
Ok….why does that matter? Both would be included. And there’s not a single team that would take 3 picks in the 20’s over both
 

128

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That trade makes sense in value but it also doesn’t make sense. Is Bosron any closer to a title with that trade? I’d argue no…and you’ve now got an older player on a worse contract as your 2nd banana.
That's the problem with any of these Jaylen-for-Beal deals. The C's still have only two All-Stars when the trade goes down. Beal may be better than Jaylen, but the gap isn't huge.
 

benhogan

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That's the problem with any of these Jaylen-for-Beal deals. The C's still have only two All-Stars when the trade goes down. Beal may be better than Jaylen, but the gap isn't huge.
Jaylen could also be just as good as Beal in 2yrs when Tatum also starts peaking.

The Celtics have done a lot of the hard work/development in regard to Brown. He's on a friendly deal (relative to Beal's next deal). and could benefit from a new voice/coach

JB should be off the table in regards to a Beal or Dame deal


Ok….why does that matter? Both would be included. And there’s not a single team that would take 3 picks in the 20’s over both
I believe @the moops was responding to @BigMike #1460 post
 

Cesar Crespo

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That's the problem with any of these Jaylen-for-Beal deals. The C's still have only two All-Stars when the trade goes down. Beal may be better than Jaylen, but the gap isn't huge.
One thing none of us considered yet is the financial situation after 21/22 if there was a Jaylen for Beal deal. Is there any way the C's could sign a max player after 21/22 if they make a Brown for Beal deal? I know it's possibly in play now.
 

HomeRunBaker

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That's the problem with any of these Jaylen-for-Beal deals. The C's still have only two All-Stars when the trade goes down. Beal may be better than Jaylen, but the gap isn't huge.
Is changing up the roster and chemistry of an underachieving team as the new GM puts his stamp on the organization really a problem though? Jaylen’s my guy but this reminds me somewhat of Pierce/Antoine where maybe they just aren’t the best fit together. Brad may also have intelligence on Jaylen’s physicals that we are not privy to.
 

Sam Ray Not

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I live in NorCal and the Warriors are my second team. Jaylen would fit really well on that team. I hope he stays in Boston
It'd be Death Lineup 3.0, only with Jaylen and Wiggins in the Iguodala-Barnes roles, which may be a small upgrade over version 1.0, given Jaylen and Wiggs are 25-26 and coming off career seasons.

But yeah, I don't think the Cs should do it, for the same reasons that I'd rather have Jaylen than Beal on the Warriors. Only situation where I could imagine it happening is if Tatum requests/demands it, which I can't really imagine happening. By all accounts Jaylen and Jayson get along well, right?
 

Light-Tower-Power

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Is changing up the roster and chemistry of an underachieving team as the new GM puts his stamp on the organization really a problem though? Jaylen’s my guy but this reminds me somewhat of Pierce/Antoine where maybe they just aren’t the best fit together. Brad may also have intelligence on Jaylen’s physicals that we are not privy to.
This is where I’m at. I’m a huge fan of Jaylen just like everyone else, but Brad has coached him and Tatum for their entire careers. If he thinks Beal is a better fit, then I’m inclined to trust him.
 

128

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Is changing up the roster and chemistry of an underachieving team as the new GM puts his stamp on the organization really a problem though? Jaylen’s my guy but this reminds me somewhat of Pierce/Antoine where maybe they just aren’t the best fit together. Brad may also have intelligence on Jaylen’s physicals that we are not privy to.
All true, but you can also make the case that the C's underachieved in what, because of COVID, ranks as possibly the most fucked-up season in NBA history. We were a lot happier with the state of the franchise at this time a year ago.

There's also the Kemba factor. His inability to stay healthy (and be available for both nights of back-to-backs) contributed heavily to the C's woes this season. I'm curious to see how things look now that he's gone, without blowing everything up.
 
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nighthob

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But ultimately it boils down to what teams are willing to offer, and most likely there will be more bidders than in a Jrue deal were,.

So Celtics ultimately need to be willing able to outbid other teams.

say GS is willing to trade Wiseman. My opinion Celtics have no one (other than Tatum/Brown), even remotely in that class of asset.
Say GS is willing to trade #7, I'd argue that is more valuable than all 3 future Celtics picks combined. (also including future unused swaps)
The I guess you have Smart vs Wiggine or Oubre (in a S&T). Smart is better, but all 3 would probably just be pass through and dealt elsewhere for a future #1 and some cap flotsam.

I think GS could offer Wiseman/Wiggins /#7 even if it is unclear Beal would resign, and the Celtics can't beat that offer without Brown. And of course GS could offer more than just that in terms of young players, and picks(and futures)
The Warriors aren’t betting their future on their ability to re-sign Bradley Beal. To be brutally frank I suspect that Golden State’s offer is going to be Wiggins, Wiseman, and #14, take it or leave it.
 

Eddie Jurak

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The Warriors aren’t betting their future on their ability to re-sign Bradley Beal. To be brutally frank I suspect that Golden State’s offer is going to be Wiggins, Wiseman, and #14, take it or leave it.
Is Wiggins even a positive asset?

Smart plus Thompson gets the Celtics within $3.55M of the salary needed to match Beal. Adding Langford, Nesmith, or Time Lord would make it work. Or Edwards plus Pritchard, Edwards plus Grant, or Edwards plus Parker (if the C's guarantee his deal). I don't know as the Wizards have much use for Thompson and Smart but both can be flipped for value.

They would have to really like Wiseman to prefer GSW offer, no?
 

Auger34

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Is Wiggins even a positive asset?

Smart plus Thompson gets the Celtics within $3.55M of the salary needed to match Beal. Adding Langford, Nesmith, or Time Lord would make it work. Or Edwards plus Pritchard, Edwards plus Grant, or Edwards plus Parker (if the C's guarantee his deal). I don't know as the Wizards have much use for Thompson and Smart but both can be flipped for value.

They would have to really like Wiseman to prefer GSW offer, no?
Depends how many 1sts the Celtics offer and what direction the Wizards want to go in. If they still want to compete then the C’s have a leg up because of Smart. If they want to blow it up then the Warriors offer would be tough to beat.

That offer plus 2 or 3 1sts (and swaps) and I think the Celtics are pretty clearly better.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Washington has for many years been like Indiana---as interested in "not being awful" as in being great. That's a little unfair, they did go partially in a couple years ago and have had more variation than tha Pacers, but the underlying feel that they are happier bouncing between 30-50 wins than bottoming out feels fair.

I think that ownership-level orientation is pretty important to assessing different packages here because a "full rebuild" mindset makes the Warriors package a lot more appealing, but the way the Wiz have operated you can imagine them maybe buying into a TT/Smart package around Westbrook (who, himself, has been subject of rumors).

Also, wouldn't the Sixers be a better partner with Simmons than the Celtics? Beal would be great next to Embiid and Simmons should make sense for Wiz (though he's polarizing and there's no telling how they'd view him---especially next to Westbrook assuming he stays).

Gotta be honest, though, I just struggle to see Celtics being able to get there on Beal absent dealing Jaylen or Beal demanding they be the destination.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Depends how many 1sts the Celtics offer and what direction the Wizards want to go in. If they still want to compete then the C’s have a leg up because of Smart. If they want to blow it up then the Warriors offer would be tough to beat.
Good point. A team in tear it down rebuild mode can handle salary ballast such as Wiggins offers.
Gotta be honest, though, I just struggle to see Celtics being able to get there on Beal absent dealing Jaylen or Beal demanding they be the destination.
So, starting here at the end of this post, I think this is right and I am out on Beal because of it.
Also, wouldn't the Sixers be a better partner with Simmons than the Celtics? Beal would be great next to Embiid and Simmons should make sense for Wiz (though he's polarizing and there's no telling how they'd view him---especially next to Westbrook assuming he stays).
You are certainly right about the Beal fit on the Sixers, I don't think that's even arguable. I'm not sure about Simmons' fit on the Wizards, though.
 

the moops

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If they want to blow it up then the Warriors offer would be tough to beat.
If they are blowing it up, Wiseman and #14 is a pretty terrible way to try and rebuild, IMO. They would be better off getting multiple firsts and swaps and/or more young guys from somewhere else.
 

HomeRunBaker

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If they are blowing it up, Wiseman and #14 is a pretty terrible way to try and rebuild, IMO. They would be better off getting multiple firsts and swaps and/or more young guys from somewhere else.
Leonsis hasn’t ever purposely blown it up during his entire ownership run. He even ran it back with Juwan and Rod Strickland when they were in the lottery every year prior to his infamous “New Big Three” comment regarding Wall, Blanche and Jordan Crawford while Grunfeld was his yes-man all those years.

There is zero reason to believe that the Wizards will suddenly shift course while under his ownership. Sorry, had to get that off my chest.
 

Auger34

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If they are blowing it up, Wiseman and #14 is a pretty terrible way to try and rebuild, IMO. They would be better off getting multiple firsts and swaps and/or more young guys from somewhere else.
Are you just very down on Wiseman? Because if the Celtics get Beal, their 1st round picks are likely going to be in the 25-30 range for the foreseeable future and the swaps would be effectively meaningless
 

Strike4

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I only saw the highlights of the USA-France game but Fournier was the MVP, with 28 points. He didn't seem to have any of the COVID lead foot aspect from the NBA season - he looked great on three's and also runners.
 

the moops

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Are you just very down on Wiseman? Because if the Celtics get Beal, their 1st round picks are likely going to be in the 25-30 range for the foreseeable future and the swaps would be effectively meaningless
Lots can change. If BOS sends out picks in 2023, 2025, 2027, who knows where they will be then.

I am not super down on Wiseman, but just don't see him + 14 as being something to build around
 

PedroKsBambino

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Lots can change. If BOS sends out picks in 2023, 2025, 2027, who knows where they will be then.

I am not super down on Wiseman, but just don't see him + 14 as being something to build around
Yeah, but as a couple of us have noted: Washington is not likely thinking about "building a champion" they are likely thinking about "building an 8 seed year after year" so Wiseman and 14 is a lot closer to building that!
 

EvilEmpire

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Also, wouldn't the Sixers be a better partner with Simmons than the Celtics? Beal would be great next to Embiid and Simmons should make sense for Wiz (though he's polarizing and there's no telling how they'd view him---especially next to Westbrook assuming he stays).
This sounds right to me. Even if the Wizards think Simmons isn't a good fit, I think he's an asset that can be moved for better value than a Celtics deal without Jaylen Brown.

I also don't get the sense that Beal is the kind of guy who would completely tie the Wizards' hands with a one team list of destinations to be traded to, but I guess we'll know for sure soon enough.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I only saw the highlights of the USA-France game but Fournier was the MVP, with 28 points. He didn't seem to have any of the COVID lead foot aspect from the NBA season - he looked great on three's and also runners.
NG even got one stop against KD when matched up in isolation in the 2nd half, which I think was one more stop he got in the entire BRK series.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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This sounds right to me. Even if the Wizards think Simmons isn't a good fit, I think he's an asset that can be moved for better value than a Celtics deal without Jaylen Brown.

I also don't get the sense that Beal is the kind of guy who would completely tie the Wizards' hands with a one team list of destinations to be traded to, but I guess we'll know for sure soon enough.
OTOH, he wants to win, doesn't he? I'm sure Beal knows that if he said that he's not going to sign an extension with anyone but BOS, he has a much better chance of getting to BOS with JT and JB and therefore winning.

Why would Beal care what happens to 'Zards after he leaves?

At least one can hope.
 

bakahump

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The real fear is that JT pulls some rank and "makes it known" he wants Beal "regardless"

Sure Stevens could and probably should pull the leash on JT and nix the deal.

But how does Brown now feel? Betrayed? Pissed off that a guy he considered his friend and teammate was ready to ship him out for his true BFF? That would make for an awkward locker room.

How does JT feel? As the Alpha he had the ability to bring another "True Superstar" into boston and Stevens kicked him in the teeth? Plus he would get to play out his childhood (or at least teen) dream of Him and Beal. So....how long until he shoots out of town.

Not saying these are true. But they are plausible and very scary as celtic fans.
 

Jimbodandy

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We have two all stars, aged 24 and 23, signed through 2024 and 2025 respectively. Why are we again discussing thwarting early exits and trade demands? Have we not better things to worry about?

Not a shot at you baka, but this keeps coming up.
 

Cesar Crespo

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We have two all stars, aged 24 and 23, signed through 2024 and 2025 respectively. Why are we again discussing thwarting early exits and trade demands? Have we not better things to worry about?

Not a shot at you baka, but this keeps coming up.
I said if Beal for Brown was rejected, it should at least be considered that might upset Tatum. I said it more in passing though because Tatum is here for the foreseeable future.

Just to shit post for a second, but I have a "feeling" that Beal is going to force his way to Boston and the deal won't involve Jaylen Brown. Here's to being disappointed.
 

Jimbodandy

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I said if Beal for Brown was rejected, it should at least be considered that might upset Tatum. I said it more in passing though because Tatum is here for the foreseeable future.

Just to shit post for a second, but I have a "feeling" that Beal is going to force his way to Boston and the deal won't involve Jaylen Brown. Here's to being disappointed.
It is not impossible. I'm not getting my hopes up either in any "Kevin Durant took a meeting with Ainge, and he brought Tom Brady and David Ortiz for a sales pitch" kind of way. More like "there's a chance".

Of course ownership should care about what its best players think of the direction of the franchise and major decisions. Get input, consider it. But this isn't Giannis with one year left looking for signs of life. These guys have seven years left between them.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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We have two all stars, aged 24 and 23, signed through 2024 and 2025 respectively. Why are we again discussing thwarting early exits and trade demands? Have we not better things to worry about?

Not a shot at you baka, but this keeps coming up.
You know the answer to this and its as simple as the fact that the NBA is a stars league. Regardless of where we rank Tatum, the NBA and/or its benefactors clearly see him as one of the faces of the league going forward. If the Celtics don't cater to his demands, even now, someone else will gladly pay them in some combination of rotational players, picks, pick-swaps and salary matching for the privilege as soon as possible. We know this but just to spell it out, outside of ownership, the most powerful person in the Celtics organization at present is none other than Jayson Tatum.
 

Jimbodandy

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You know the answer to this and its as simple as the fact that the NBA is a stars league. Regardless of where we rank Tatum, the NBA and/or its benefactors clearly see him as one of the faces of the league going forward. If the Celtics don't cater to his demands, even now, someone else will gladly pay them in some combination of rotational players, picks, pick-swaps and salary matching for the privilege as soon as possible. We know this but just to spell it out, outside of ownership, the most powerful person in the Celtics organization at present is none other than Jayson Tatum.
Not arguing any of that, but the man's not about to hold out for four years. Nobody does that. We should kick that part of the conversation down the road at least two years.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Not arguing any of that, but the man's not about to hold out for four years. Nobody does that. We should kick that part of the conversation down the road at least two years.
He will not have to hold out. He can demand a trade tomorrow and the C's, if they want any hope of remaining a credible destination, will likely have to oblige. To do otherwise would likely relegate them to an even worse limbo than simply trading Tatum away for flotsam.
 

lexrageorge

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He will not have to hold out. He can demand a trade tomorrow and the C's, if they want any hope of remaining a credible destination, will likely have to oblige. To do otherwise would likely relegate them to an even worse limbo than simply trading Tatum away for flotsam.
Tatum has zero leverage today to demand a trade. And his agent knows that. There's no reason for Stevens to feel backed into a corner such that he feels he has no choice but to make the sub-lateral move and trade Jaylen for Beal.

Tatum will have leverage in about 2-3 years. I do agree that actions today can certainly influence Tatum's decision on whether to demand a trade at that time. Hopefully, if the Beal thing falls through because there is no way to make it work with the Celtics current slate of assets, Stevens can use the next 2 years to find another way to build a winner and convince Tatum to stay, much like Ainge did with Paul Pierce back in the day.