N'Keal Harry Requests a Trade

sodenj5

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SMU_Sox said:
Completely fair. I was being optimistic. Before last year started I made a charity bet that he would finish with less than 350 yards. I tried to set the bar low so that my friend would win that bet but… yeah he sucks.




Mac Jones was also a guy who had some right window challenges on tape. Now granted not a ton because his guys were often wide open but Mac showed an ability to throw it up in tight windows when given the chance. I think the problem is Harry isn’t on schedule with his routes.
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And that’s why I said he needs Fitzy. Fitz sees a big WR 1 on 1 downfield and his eyes light up like it’s Christmas morning. 1 on 1 is basically wide open in his book.

I don’t think his agent’s wording was a coincidence either. “At the catch point.” Meaning Harry can’t get open for shit but he can outmuscle guys when the ball is in the air.
 
Harry Hooper

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We did have Mac Jones's comments earlier this year:

“In the NFL, a guy might be open by 3 inches versus 2 feet. Maybe he’s completely covered, but he’s still considered open. It’s just where you put the ball,” Jones said during an interview with NFL Network before the NFL draft. “And you’ve got to work that when you’re doing drills. You can’t just throw to throw. Even some of my throws, I’ll have somebody say, ‘Hey right shoulder, left shoulder.’ So I’m hitting the receiver on that shoulder specifically, because you have to be that accurate in the NFL.”
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Bernie Carbohydrate

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Ah... formally requesting a trade. That's different.

I formally requested a pretty Chi Omega go out with me as an undergraduate. Turns out I was eminently stoppable at the point of attack.

I'm happy if Harry's snaps go to Meyers. Somehow Jacobi was able to get separation and build a rapport with Cam. Harry was a decoy, and not a very effective one at that.
 
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MuppetAsteriskTalk

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sodenj5 said:
If you’ve watched Fitz play for a season or two, it’s definitely a real thing. The man will throw it up to guys that are covered or into closing windows with near reckless abandon.

Harry needs a guy like that who will just launch a ball his way even if he’s blanketed downfield. You’d be shocked how frequently it works when your guy is bigger and stronger then their guy.
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I mean he seems to have problems with this too. I guess he's bigger than some guys, but he didn't seem too interested in fighting for balls at times.
 
JM3

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E5 Yaz said:
A dominant downfield threat who was virtually unstoppable in college.

"College" being the important word in that sentence
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Counterpoint: he wasn't that great in college either.
 
Shelterdog

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JM3 said:
Counterpoint: he wasn't that great in college either.
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He was pretty good--he had a thousand yards both his sophomore and junior year in a pretty good conference.

I've defended him as much as almost anyone here I think but if the Pats trade him now for what I assume would be at best a fifth round pick it's hard to rate him as any higher than about a D as a pick. 45 catches most of them short is just horrendous production for a first round receiver.
 
JM3

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Shelterdog said:
He was pretty good--he had a thousand yards both his sophomore and junior year in a pretty good conference.

I've defended him as much as almost anyone here I think but if the Pats trade him now for what I assume would be at best a fifth round pick it's hard to rate him as any higher than about a D as a pick. 45 catches most of them short is just horrendous production for a first round receiver.
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To compare 2 Pac 12 receivers' Junior seasons & combine measurables in 2018...

Player A: 6'2, 73/1088/9/14.9 ypc, 4.53 40

Player B: 6'1, 75/1184/10/15.8 ypc, 4.46 40

& might as well throw in a couple other major conference players...

Player C: 6'0.5, 85/1320/6/15.5 ypc, 4.49 40

Player D: 6'2, 92/1047/4/11.4 ypc, 4.63 40.
 
JM3

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Mostly that was just a reference to him being an unstoppable downfield threat in college or something. He was T119th in ypc.

Plus I've been bitter since the day of the draft that they didn't take Player C. They missed a lot of other good WRs too, but Player C was the only unforgivable one imo.
 
Shaky Walton

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Is there a coach in professional sports who would be less open to a public negotiation along these lines than Bill Belichick?

Wanting out is understandable. Going about it like this appears to be wholly ineffective. I mean, yeah, Bill could trade or release the player. But only if it's in the best interests of the t-e-a-m.

Harry looks to have an agent whose skill set is consistent with his client's.
 
JM3

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Pretty sure the Patriots are better off trading Harry for literally nothing than releasing him, his formal trade demands notwithstanding.

He has about $2.1m of guaranteed base salary left, which would go with him in a trade.

So cutting him would be a $4.8m dead cap hit & trading him would be a $2.7m dead cap hit (coincidentally the same as his regular cap hit this season).

He would cost an acquiring team 2/$3.3m/$2.1m, so wouldn't be a horrible gamble for someone with a spare 7th rounder laying around.
 
Captaincoop

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Shelterdog said:
He was pretty good--he had a thousand yards both his sophomore and junior year in a pretty good conference.

I've defended him as much as almost anyone here I think but if the Pats trade him now for what I assume would be at best a fifth round pick it's hard to rate him as any higher than about a D as a pick. 45 catches most of them short is just horrendous production for a first round receiver.
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I have to assume if a 5th could be had for Harry he would already be gone. They should take any draft pick they can get for him.
 
Shelterdog

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JM3 said:
Mostly that was just a reference to him being an unstoppable downfield threat in college or something. He was T119th in ypc.

Plus I've been bitter since the day of the draft that they didn't take Player C. They missed a lot of other good WRs too, but Player C was the only unforgivable one imo.
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Not sure who is making the good faith claim that anyone said that.

Who are the mystery players? Curious but not curious enough to start looking up college receiver stat for seoncd and third round picks two years ago.

EDIT: Agreed that they'd be luck to get a fifth--that was in response to other suggesting he'd be worth a three or four. I don't think it's impossible that he turns into a decent wideout somewhere (unlikely yes but not impossible), but it seems close to impossible that he'll do that here.
 
mauf

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Shaky Walton said:
Is there a coach in professional sports who would be less open to a public negotiation along these lines than Bill Belichick?

Wanting out is understandable. Going about it like this appears to be wholly ineffective. I mean, yeah, Bill could trade or release the player. But only if it's in the best interests of the t-e-a-m.

Harry looks to have an agent whose skill set is consistent with his client's.
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I disagree.

Even more than most coaches, BB hates distractions. Today’s announcement put BB on notice that Harry is at least a potential distraction. If BB was thinking he’d rather deal with a 5th WR who can’t play special teams than deal with a $4M dead-cap hit, that calculus may have changed. Yet, by letting his agent do all the talking, Harry avoids being labeled as a problem child by other teams. (They might not want him because he lacks talent, but a team that sees potential in Harry isn’t likely to pass because of what his agent said today.)

You don’t have many options when your client plays as poorly as Harry has, but I think the agent played his lousy hand pretty well.
 
JM3

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Shelterdog said:
Not sure who is making the good faith claim that anyone said that.

Who are the mystery players? Curious but not curious enough to start looking up college receiver stat for seoncd and third round picks two years ago.

EDIT: Agreed that they'd be luck to get a fifth--that was in response to other suggesting he'd be worth a three or four. I don't think it's impossible that he turns into a decent wideout somewhere (unlikely yes but not impossible), but it seems close to impossible that he'll do that here.
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Jamal Tooson: "...when they drafted a dominant downfield threat who was virtually unstoppable at the point of attack in college."

Obviously it's not in good faith as it's his job to say silly things, but yeah.

Player A is Harry, player B is Dillon Mitchell who was a 7th round pick by the Vikings & hasn't made it onto an NFL roster. He did have the advantage of Justin Herbert being his QB tho.

Player C is AJ Brown, who was always at worst a quicker more physical at the line Harry, & Player D is my avatar. He's not really on that list for a good reason lol.

& I don't know what Harry's trade value is - other than whatever 1 team is willing to pay, was mostly just saying that cutting him probably won't happen because of the guaranteed salary stuff.
 
kartvelo

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Use him as a CB. In that case you don't want him to get separation from the opposing player, and he doesn't need to catch the ball. :)
 
HomeRunBaker

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nattysez said:
This is exactly what I was coming here to suggest. Now when he gets cut, he can say that it was in retaliation for requesting a trade. I don't see how else his agent making this request now makes sense.
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If he sensed his client was not in the Patriots plans and facing possible release this is a brilliant play on his behalf. If the agent has a great relationship with the team this could also be a mutual decision with the team doing the agent a favor that doesn’t hurt them in any way since they were releasing him anyway.
 
lexrageorge

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Given all of the offseason acquisitions, there is a real question whether there is a roster spot available to Harry this coming season. Barring an amazing and unexpected breakout training camp or an injury to one of the prospective starters, there is unlikely to be one. The cap hit will not stop New England from cutting him if it comes to that.

If he were cut, there would probably be tryout opportunities with other teams, but I can see why his agent would be pushing for a trade. At best he nets them a 5th or 6th rounder at this point. Don't see anything happening until training camp starts though.
 
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HARRY: “I formally request”; is that how it works? Hm?

“I request a trade, Coach.”

“No.”

“Oh no no no. No, I FORMALLY request a trade.”

“Oh. Well, if you formally request, then I should take the time to reconsider.”

AGENT: I got it on Twitter.

HARRY: Yeah, you also got my Coach thinking I overestimate my leverage. You request informally so he can hear you say I want out. You make it public the way you did and suddenly my reasonable request looks a bunch of fancy agent tricks. It’s the difference between PAPER agency, and PEOPLE agency. Christ, you even had my mom saying you were an idiot!
 
JM3

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As far as I can tell the sports agent thing is a side job for Tooson, whose primary career is as an LA defense attorney. Only other client I found him connected to in brief search was Bills RB Zack Moss.

ETA: & WR Tre Walker who signed as a UDFA with the Bills out of San Jose State.
 
nighthob

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Captaincoop said:
I have to assume if a 5th could be had for Harry he would already be gone. They should take any draft pick they can get for him.
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Can they trade him for a $50 Pizza Hut gift card? That might make the acquiring team feel a little better.
 
the1andonly3003

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JM3 said:
As far as I can tell the sports agent thing is a side job for Tooson, whose primary career is as an LA defense attorney. Only other client I found him connected to in brief search was Bills RB Zack Moss.

ETA: & WR Tre Walker who signed as a UDFA with the Bills out of San Jose State.
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reminds me of the line in A Few Good Men when Demi Moore's Jo Galloway strenuously objects during the court scene
 
AlNipper49

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Groovenstein said:
HARRY: “I formally request”; is that how it works? Hm?

“I request a trade, Coach.”

“No.”

“Oh no no no. No, I FORMALLY request a trade.”

“Oh. Well, if you formally request, then I should take the time to reconsider.”

AGENT: I got it on Twitter.

HARRY: Yeah, you also got my Coach thinking I overestimate my leverage. You request informally so he can hear you say I want out. You make it public the way you did and suddenly my reasonable request looks a bunch of fancy agent tricks. It’s the difference between PAPER agency, and PEOPLE agency. Christ, you even had my mom saying you were an idiot!
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I picture the Formal Trade Request, in this case, to be the NFL equivalent to McLovin’s driver’s license.
 
Mugsy’s Walk-Off Bunt

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Groovenstein said:
HARRY: “I formally request”; is that how it works? Hm?

“I request a trade, Coach.”

“No.”

“Oh no no no. No, I FORMALLY request a trade.”

“Oh. Well, if you formally request, then I should take the time to reconsider.”

AGENT: I got it on Twitter.

HARRY: Yeah, you also got my Coach thinking I overestimate my leverage. You request informally so he can hear you say I want out. You make it public the way you did and suddenly my reasonable request looks a bunch of fancy agent tricks. It’s the difference between PAPER agency, and PEOPLE agency. Christ, you even had my mom saying you were an idiot!
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Bravo.
 
SMU_Sox

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I’m with @Shelterdog and I’m sorry that I’m going to have to slander your PAC12 but… most of Harry’s production came against mediocre pac12 DBs. A lot of his best RAC came against a ton of poor angles and miss tackles. Projecting WRs is really tough. It’s probably one of the harder positions to project. I’ve certainly missed on that position and will continue to miss on it. That being said Harry was not universally regarded. I posted a lot that year about receivers I wanted the Pats to take or that I thought the Pats would be interested in and I never mentioned him once. I didn’t see a guy who could separate and guys who live and die by contested catches don’t usually translate well. Arizona also gave him a ton of schemed touches. On the other hand he had great breakout age and dominator rating stats which is why some more analytical draft people liked him. You could see what BB was thinking with him but it didn’t work out. He never improved his route running and separation ability nor did he pick up enough on the playbook to consistently win. Belichick had the right idea with Deebo, AJ Brown and Harry but he just backed the wrong horse. Sucks that it happened. Time to hopefully move on.
 
Shelterdog

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SMU_Sox said:
I’m with @Shelterdog and I’m sorry that I’m going to have to slander your PAC12 but… most of Harry’s production came against mediocre pac12 DBs. A lot of his best RAC came against a ton of poor angles and miss tackles. Projecting WRs is really tough. It’s probably one of the harder positions to project. I’ve certainly missed on that position and will continue to miss on it. That being said Harry was not universally regarded. I posted a lot that year about receivers I wanted the Pats to take or that I thought the Pats would be interested in and I never mentioned him once. I didn’t see a guy who could separate and guys who live and die by contested catches don’t usually translate well. Arizona also gave him a ton of schemed touches. On the other hand he had great breakout age and dominator rating stats which is why some more analytical draft people liked him. You could see what BB was thinking with him but it didn’t work out. He never improved his route running and separation ability nor did he pick up enough on the playbook to consistently win. Belichick had the right idea with Deebo, AJ Brown and Harry but he just backed the wrong horse. Sucks that it happened. Time to hopefully move on.
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You're killing me bro. Harry looked awesome against my beleoved Stanford; what do you mean that doesn't translate to the pros?
 
joe dokes

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SMU_Sox said:
On his underneath routes he was getting separation but like almost receivers have separation when they run underneath stuff - the problem was Harry couldn’t make the first man miss or break the initial tackle and I didn’t see any explosion up the field when he had the ball. A lot of defenses don’t mind giving up 4-5-6 yard passes because it’s effectively checking down. And if you want to win that way you have to execute those plays 10-20 times in a drive which is hard to do. Harry was supposed to be a guy who could create chunk plays. He never lived up to that.
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I dont watch tape or really dive into "who got open." But I dont doubt that there were times when Cam's lack of confidence in his arm (or lack or arm) caused him not to make tight throws. That said, you dont have to watch tape to see that Harry regularly went down on the first hit, or got stopped short of the first down, or just generally got stopped with little difficulty by smaller defensive players, without delivering the corresponding blow that might cause the DB to hesitate next time so Harry got the extra yard or 2 next time. I'm sure it happened less often than I think I'm remembering, but Harry's legacy in my mind is catching a pass 7 yards downfield on 3rd and 8 and being stopped a half yard short. When they build the statue of him at Patriots Place, it will have him lunging for -- but not reaching -- a 1st down marker.
 
mauf

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Groovenstein said:
HARRY: “I formally request”; is that how it works? Hm?

“I request a trade, Coach.”

“No.”

“Oh no no no. No, I FORMALLY request a trade.”

“Oh. Well, if you formally request, then I should take the time to reconsider.”

AGENT: I got it on Twitter.

HARRY: Yeah, you also got my Coach thinking I overestimate my leverage. You request informally so he can hear you say I want out. You make it public the way you did and suddenly my reasonable request looks a bunch of fancy agent tricks. It’s the difference between PAPER agency, and PEOPLE agency. Christ, you even had my mom saying you were an idiot!
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This is fucking excellent, and definitely merits removal of the “lurker” tag. Welcome to the club.
 
Kenny F'ing Powers

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mauf said:
This is fucking excellent, and definitely merits removal of the “lurker” tag. Welcome to the club.
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I thought it was wordy and didnt really get it.

Dudes probably the next Rev. Fuck do I know.
 
Kenny F'ing Powers

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cmaxwell's silver hammer said:
It's on the front page of other sports sites as well. Any negative Patriots story will be. Given the level of Patriots hatred, it is clickbait gold.
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Yep.

We have to accept that were in the 2000's Cowboys zone now. Schadenfruede is the national focus for the next 15 years.

Only way out is to schadenfruede them right back...and win the whole fucking thing.
 
mulluysavage

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Like a couple of other posts noted, maybe Harry's camp can see there's too little chance he'll make the team this year.

So maybe this is a cut me now vs later thing. Said in a face-saving way.
 
mwonow

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Aren't there cases where the agent is given permission to approach other teams about a trade?

That should be this guy's penance.
 
JM3

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Scenes from Mediocre N'Keal Harry (sorry got bored on my way to work):

Mick Lombardi: You're Not Perfect, N'Keal, And Let Me Save You The Suspense: This QB You've Met, he's Not Perfect Either. But The Question Is Whether Or Not You're Perfect For Each Other.

Narrator: They were not.
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Harry: Well, I Got Her Number. How Do You Like Them Apples?

Edelman: You mean this #?

Jakobi Meyers: You dropped it again didn't you..

Harry: ...
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Harry's Agent: It'd Be An Insult To Us If You're Still Here In 20 Days. Hangin' Around Here Is A F*****' Waste Of Your Time.
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JKraft: You'll Have Bad Times, But It'll Always Wake You Up To The Good Stuff You Weren't Paying Attention To.

Harry: Yeah, like what?

JKraft: Idfk, the weather isn't bad at the moment?
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Ernie Adams: He Pushes People Away Before They Get A Chance To Leave Him. It's A Defense Mechanism.
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Josh McD to Harry: You Know What The Best Part Of My Day Is? For About Ten Seconds, From When I Pull Up To The Stadium And When I Get To Your Locker, 'Cause I Think, Maybe I'll Walk In And You Won't Be There. No Goodbye. No See You Later. No Nothing. You Just Left, I Don't Know Much, But I Do Know That.
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Harry's Agent to Harry: It's Not Your Fault.

BB: Yeah, it pretty much is.
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Jimbodandy

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joe dokes said:
I dont watch tape or really dive into "who got open." But I dont doubt that there were times when Cam's lack of confidence in his arm (or lack or arm) caused him not to make tight throws. That said, you dont have to watch tape to see that Harry regularly went down on the first hit, or got stopped short of the first down, or just generally got stopped with little difficulty by smaller defensive players, without delivering the corresponding blow that might cause the DB to hesitate next time so Harry got the extra yard or 2 next time. I'm sure it happened less often than I think I'm remembering, but Harry's legacy in my mind is catching a pass 7 yards downfield on 3rd and 8 and being stopped a half yard short. When they build the statue of him at Patriots Place, it will have him lunging for -- but not reaching -- a 1st down marker.
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Count me among the tribe that thinks that Cam's refusal to throw yolo balls (great fucking term) to Harry is a feature, not a bug.

I'll sound like a Cam apologist here, but Alabama's receivers last year were better than the NEPs. That sure as shit includes Harry and his "do you know who I am" press release. Yes, N'Keal, we know who you are.
 
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