Grant “Corner Office” Williams

bakahump · Apr 12, 2021

OK.

And yea....while his BBall skills might be a little wanting having a 6'6 250 lb guy, who (as you note) is incredibly strong, on your side and telling opposing teams to "Knock it off" is a good thing.

Funny cause Grant often has that goofy smile. He genuinely looks like a nice guy having fun. He is like Kembas younger bigge brother. But evidently there is a "mean streak" if he or his teammates get pushed too far.

(probably overstating the situation.....but it did make me happy for this team)

Cesar Crespo · Apr 12, 2021

bakahump said:
OK.

And yea....while his BBall skills might be a little wanting having a 6'6 250 lb guy, who (as you note) is incredibly strong, on your side and telling opposing teams to "Knock it off" is a good thing.

Funny cause Grant often has that goofy smile. He genuinely looks like a nice guy having fun. He is like Kembas younger bigge brother. But evidently there is a "mean streak" if he or his teammates get pushed too far.

(probably overstating the situation.....but it did make me happy for this team)

Unfortunately, he's kinda like Semi in that if you can't get around him or move him, you just shoot over him.

HomeRunBaker · Apr 12, 2021

Cesar Crespo said:
I'm guessing it was just a one off and that Jokic was already somewhat frustrated having watched his team blow a 14 point lead with him on the bench. Semi did ok against Giannis for a little too.

Placing a ton of weight on Jokic’s approach on an early Sunday afternoon game may not be the best way to judge him. He showed no interest in the 1H of being aggressive choosing to simply defer. Today’s Sunday afternoon games are the mid-winter Tuesday night games in Milwaukee of yesteryear. Grain of salt.

benhogan · Apr 17, 2021

Cesar Crespo said:
I don't know if the dumb fouls will ever end. I think that's a product of being slow. Although I guess some people think he'll get much quicker with some weight loss.

moving over to here:
I don't recall him being the dumb foul machine he has turned into this season. BUT he fouled more last season, so my memory is clearly off. Using his hands-on screens and running into jump shooters seems to happen nightly. Maybe fouling a lot will always be part of his game

https://theathletic.com/2523749/2021/04/16/celtics-on-a-five-game-win-streak-a-look-at-five-important-trends-for-each-win/

Williams finding a place
Grant Williams has had a weird second season. Even after showing significant development as a 3-point shooter, he saw inconsistent playing time early in the season. Because the Celtics had so many centers before moving Theis, they have had very few opportunities to play Williams at the position, which was probably his best as a rookie. He has experienced repeated issues with fouling, sometimes at awful times. His scoring has been minimal over the last few weeks. It hasn’t mattered too much. He’s making an impact.

Williams has seized the backup power forward role and contributed to some of the Celtics’ best defensive stretches lately. Over his last 12 games, the Celtics have outscored teams by 15.8 points per 100 possessions with Williams on the court, thanks largely to all the stops they have picked up during his minutes. He and Thompson have made up a physical, effective second-unit frontcourt. With those two guys and Romeo Langford, the Celtics have several capable, versatile defenders to bring off the bench.

Their second unit will shift soon when Fournier comes back. Williams may not be promised to stay in the rotation every night. For now, he’s doing his job to help the Celtics’ defensive resurgence.

lovegtm · Apr 17, 2021

benhogan said:
moving over to here:
I don't recall him being the dumb foul machine he has turned into this season. BUT he fouled more last season, so my memory is clearly off. Using his hands-on screens and running into jump shooters seems to happen nightly. Maybe fouling a lot will always be part of his game

https://theathletic.com/2523749/2021/04/16/celtics-on-a-five-game-win-streak-a-look-at-five-important-trends-for-each-win/

Williams finding a place
Grant Williams has had a weird second season. Even after showing significant development as a 3-point shooter, he saw inconsistent playing time early in the season. Because the Celtics had so many centers before moving Theis, they have had very few opportunities to play Williams at the position, which was probably his best as a rookie. He has experienced repeated issues with fouling, sometimes at awful times. His scoring has been minimal over the last few weeks. It hasn’t mattered too much. He’s making an impact.

Williams has seized the backup power forward role and contributed to some of the Celtics’ best defensive stretches lately. Over his last 12 games, the Celtics have outscored teams by 15.8 points per 100 possessions with Williams on the court, thanks largely to all the stops they have picked up during his minutes. He and Thompson have made up a physical, effective second-unit frontcourt. With those two guys and Romeo Langford, the Celtics have several capable, versatile defenders to bring off the bench.

Their second unit will shift soon when Fournier comes back. Williams may not be promised to stay in the rotation every night. For now, he’s doing his job to help the Celtics’ defensive resurgence.

The thing is, he's not a center. He really needs to become Semi: a 3/4 who can hang on switches a bit with smalls and bang in the post when necessary. He does contest shots a lot better than Semi, so there's that going for him. His wingspan/standing reach are much less of a problem playing 1-2 positions down.

He absolutely needs to lose ~10-15 pounds to do this. The PJ Tucker comparisons kind of slotted him into the wrong role imo.

For the boring nitpickers: no, I don't think he has a guaranteed path to being a rotation player, but this is pretty clearly the way it would happen if it did.

wade boggs chicken dinner · Apr 17, 2021

benhogan said:
moving over to here:
I don't recall him being the dumb foul machine he has turned into this season. BUT he fouled more last season, so my memory is clearly off. Using his hands-on screens and running into jump shooters seems to happen nightly. Maybe fouling a lot will always be part of his game

https://theathletic.com/2523749/2021/04/16/celtics-on-a-five-game-win-streak-a-look-at-five-important-trends-for-each-win/

Williams finding a place
Grant Williams has had a weird second season. Even after showing significant development as a 3-point shooter, he saw inconsistent playing time early in the season. Because the Celtics had so many centers before moving Theis, they have had very few opportunities to play Williams at the position, which was probably his best as a rookie. He has experienced repeated issues with fouling, sometimes at awful times. His scoring has been minimal over the last few weeks. It hasn’t mattered too much. He’s making an impact.

Williams has seized the backup power forward role and contributed to some of the Celtics’ best defensive stretches lately. Over his last 12 games, the Celtics have outscored teams by 15.8 points per 100 possessions with Williams on the court, thanks largely to all the stops they have picked up during his minutes. He and Thompson have made up a physical, effective second-unit frontcourt. With those two guys and Romeo Langford, the Celtics have several capable, versatile defenders to bring off the bench.

Their second unit will shift soon when Fournier comes back. Williams may not be promised to stay in the rotation every night. For now, he’s doing his job to help the Celtics’ defensive resurgence.

Thanks for posting. I'll note that over the last 15 games, GW's NRtg (according to NBA.com, not BRef) is 13.5 (115.7 ORtg / 102.1 DRtg) is tops on the team minimum of 6 games. Minimum of 8 games, and taking out Nesmith who has only played 9 minutes, GW's DRtg of 102.1 is tops on the team.

Two interesting notes from the last 15 games. TT has the highest NRtg at a 20.2 (121.0 ORtg / 100.8 DRtg) but he's only played 5 games. Romeo comes in second on DRtg at 102.0, but he's only played 5 game.

benhogan · Apr 17, 2021

lovegtm said:
The thing is, he's not a center. He really needs to become Semi: a 3/4 who can hang on switches a bit with smalls and bang in the post when necessary. He does contest shots a lot better than Semi, so there's that going for him. His wingspan/standing reach are much less of a problem playing 1-2 positions down.

He absolutely needs to lose ~10-15 pounds to do this. The PJ Tucker comparisons kind of slotted him into the wrong role imo.

For the boring nitpickers: no, I don't think he has a guaranteed path to being a rotation player, but this is pretty clearly the way it would happen if it did.

Yea, his metrics last season were decidedly better as a 4.

For small stretches (vs. Jokic), he can get into the airspace of BIGs and annoy them. That let TL play off-ball/help, which utilized Rob's talents best. Grant being a 5 is a small minute/situational/switchy thing.

Getting into great shape and working on his 3pt stroke* will be his best opportunity to stick/add value for numerous seasons.

*he'll never be a big scorer, but the 3pt threat needs to be there to open up the floor for the 4 better offensive options

lovegtm · Apr 17, 2021

wade boggs chicken dinner said:
Thanks for posting. I'll note that over the last 15 games, GW's NRtg (according to NBA.com, not BRef) is 13.5 (115.7 ORtg / 102.1 DRtg) is tops on the team minimum of 6 games. Minimum of 8 games, and taking out Nesmith who has only played 9 minutes, GW's DRtg of 102.1 is tops on the team.

Two interesting notes from the last 15 games. TT has the highest NRtg at a 20.2 (121.0 ORtg / 100.8 DRtg) but he's only played 5 games. Romeo comes in second on DRtg at 102.0, but he's only played 5 game.

I was reliably informed that both Romeo and Grant have sucked recently. Need more POINTZ

Cesar Crespo · Apr 17, 2021

lovegtm said:
I was reliably informed that both Romeo and Grant have sucked recently. Need more POINTZ

They need a scorer off the bench. Someone actually does have to score points. Romeo, Semi, Grant don't do this. With Fournier out, no one one the bench really does this.

That's why Jabari actually makes sense. He can score.

wade boggs chicken dinner · Apr 17, 2021

Cesar Crespo said:
They need a scorer off the bench. Someone actually does have to score points. Romeo, Semi, Grant don't do this. With Fournier out, no one one the bench really does this.

That's why Jabari actually makes sense. He can score.

The Big 4 average something like 66 shots a game. The entire team is averaging 88. Also, the last 15 games, the Cs are 7th in the league in ORtg (and 2nd in the league in 4Q ORtg at 120.0 and NRtg at 22.0 - LAC are 1st in 4Q Ortg at 125.6 plus NRtg at 25.3). Not sure they are lacking for people who can score points at any time during the game.

lovegtm · Apr 17, 2021

Cesar Crespo said:
They need a scorer off the bench. Someone actually does have to score points. Romeo, Semi, Grant don't do this. With Fournier out, no one one the bench really does this.

That's why Jabari actually makes sense. He can score.

I am a huge fan of Fournier because it's great to have another threatening offensive player out there. However, the Celtics can keep 2 of Tatum/Brown/Kemba on the floor at all times. That's plenty of offense--you just need the roleplayers surrounding that to play D and you're a good regular season team.

Cesar Crespo · Apr 17, 2021

wade boggs chicken dinner said:
The Big 4 average something like 66 shots a game. The entire team is averaging 88. Also, the last 15 games, the Cs are 7th in the league in ORtg (and 2nd in the league in 4Q ORtg at 120.0 and NRtg at 22.0 - LAC are 1st in 4Q Ortg at 125.6 plus NRtg at 25.3). Not sure they are lacking for people who can score points at any time during the game.

I thought there were times on the current hot streak where they could have used another scorer. The team will be a lot better with Evan Fournier. And if Jabari can score a little, it's more than anything Wagner offers.

I think people are forgetting some of the ugly play during this winning streak like falling down big to the Wolves early, getting smoked by Denver until Jokic sat out, having to come back big against NY. There have been some bad stretches of basketball. The streak hasn't been that pretty.

Wins are wins though.

chilidawg · Apr 17, 2021

Cesar Crespo said:
They need a scorer off the bench. Someone actually does have to score points. Romeo, Semi, Grant don't do this. With Fournier out, no one one the bench really does this.

That's why Jabari actually makes sense. He can score.

Yeah, it's hard to imagine a playoff bench rotation that has more than one of RL, Semi and GW on the court at a time. One offensive hole is okay, but two will sink you. That's why Fournier seems so key to that rotation. PP, TT, Brown/Tatum, Fournier ad RL/GW is a pretty good group.

benhogan · Apr 17, 2021

Cesar Crespo said:
I thought there were times on the current hot streak where they could have used another scorer. The team will be a lot better with Evan Fournier. And if Jabari can score a little, it's more than anything Wagner offers.

I think people are forgetting some of the ugly play during this winning streak like falling down big to the Wolves early, getting smoked by Denver until Jokic sat out, having to come back big against NY. There have been some bad stretches of basketball. The streak hasn't been that pretty.

Wins are wins though.

Yea the biggest criticism I'd have with their offense isn't the number of players that can score (esp with EF returning). It's all the unforced turnovers.

https://theathletic.com/2523749/2021/04/16/celtics-on-a-five-game-win-streak-a-look-at-five-important-trends-for-each-win/

Since the trade deadline, the Celtics have ranked 22nd in turnover rate. They have committed turnovers on 14.8 percent of their offensive possessions, an ugly blemish on an otherwise promising run.

In a strange twist for a Stevens team, the Celtics have had trouble protecting the ball. They rank 19th in turnover rate for the full season.

“We have a tendency to be loose with the ball, and we have to stop that,” Stevens said. “I always look at – our best teams have always been in the top five of turnovers. It’s always been Kemba’s team’s strengths, as a point guard of teams. And we have to make sure that we do a better job of taking care of the ball as a team.

“It will bite us in time, whether it’s Saturday night against Golden State, because they make you pay – turnovers become three points on the other end. But it’ll bite us if we don’t clean it up, for sure. We’ve got to clean it up. Can’t keep playing like that and expect to win.”

In most other ways, the Celtics offense is showing progress. They still need to do a better job of valuing possessions.

DeJesus Built My Hotrod · Apr 17, 2021

Every single NBA game including those played by every single top player in the league features ugly play, bad stretches and terrible decision making by All NBA caliber stars. Its what happens when humans have to make split second decisions under extreme duress. This year, or any season's Celtics squad in their franchise's history is not unique in this regard.

Cesar Crespo · Apr 17, 2021

NomarsFool said:
Grant needs to find some way of contributing at least a little bit offensively besides catch and shoot 3s. He has, on occasion, shown the ability to make some cuts for easy baskets. He should continue to work on that - since he is a guy which I think is supposed to have a good BBIQ (which is different than IQ - he's obviously a smart guy) - I think there is potential there.

You'd think there would also be some opportunities to post- up smaller players when they get switched onto him, but it seems like, in limited sample, that when that happens a taller player ends up helping and blocking his shot. Hopefully, he should learn to be able to do it quicker so there isn't time to help and learn to pass the ball back out to one of the scorers when this happens.

People were saying his ceiling was Draymond Green in the offseason. Passing is supposed to be a strength of his game. It was either grossly exaggerated or it's being criminally underutilized. That's especially so with TL on the team.

wade boggs chicken dinner · Apr 17, 2021

Cesar Crespo said:
I thought there were times on the current hot streak where they could have used another scorer. The team will be a lot better with Evan Fournier. And if Jabari can score a little, it's more than anything Wagner offers.

I think people are forgetting some of the ugly play during this winning streak like falling down big to the Wolves early, getting smoked by Denver until Jokic sat out, having to come back big against NY. There have been some bad stretches of basketball. The streak hasn't been that pretty.

Wins are wins though.

I don't think they got down early because of lack of bench scoring. As noted correctly, a lot of it had to do with TOs. A lot of it also has to do with JT not scoring in the 1Q.

They almost always have in the game at the same time first 2 of the big 4 plus either TL or TT, and that's before one accounts for Fournier. Plus, the offense is pro-PG so Pritchard gets more shots than any other bench player.

My main point is that the way the team is configured and the way the offense runs, there aren't a lot of shots to go around. And the corollary to this is the wings like RL, Semi, Grant, and Nesmith aren't going to look good by box score based metrics since they will not be filling up the box score. Which actually is probably good for the way the team is configured.

wade boggs chicken dinner · Apr 17, 2021

NomarsFool said:
You'd think there would also be some opportunities to post- up smaller players when they get switched onto him,

This happens all of the time especially in transition but he's not getting the ball passed to him. Happens at least a couple of times every game.

I have no idea whether not passing to him is the correct play but GW isn't getting the ball there for the most part.

JakeRae · Apr 17, 2021

chilidawg said:
Yeah, it's hard to imagine a playoff bench rotation that has more than one of RL, Semi and GW on the court at a time. One offensive hole is okay, but two will sink you. That's why Fournier seems so key to that rotation. PP, TT, Brown/Tatum, Fournier ad RL/GW is a pretty good group.

Healthy, there’s only a maximum of 20 mpg total for people other than our top 7 rotation players in the playoffs, and I wouldn’t be surprised to see us go to a 7 man rotation in key games.

Kemba, Smart, Brown, Tatum, and Fournier will all play big minutes 1-4, and the 5 minutes are spoken for with Timelord and Thompson.

If we assume playoff minutes sit around 36 mpg for the starters, maybe 34 for Kemba, and 30 for Fournier, that leaves 20 minutes left for the rest of the roster. But those are pretty light minutes totals, and it’s not hard to see the leftover minutes shrinking to 10 or fewer in closer games.

As things look right now, it seems like Grant, Romeo, and Pritchard are going to get those minutes based more on matchups than talent differences, although there’s a case to be made for Pritchard just getting all of them.

slamminsammya · Apr 17, 2021

wade boggs chicken dinner said:
This happens all of the time especially in transition but he's not getting the ball passed to him. Happens at least a couple of times every game.

I have no idea whether not passing to him is the correct play but GW isn't getting the ball there for the most part.

No one on the Celtics is really capable of making tight window passes. Thats a pass that needs to be timed and angled precisely so that he isn't running right into the help.

oumbi · Apr 18, 2021

JakeRae said:
Healthy, there’s only a maximum of 20 mpg total for people other than our top 7 rotation players in the playoffs, and I wouldn’t be surprised to see us go to a 7 man rotation in key games.

Kemba, Smart, Brown, Tatum, and Fournier will all play big minutes 1-4, and the 5 minutes are spoken for with Timelord and Thompson.

If we assume playoff minutes sit around 36 mpg for the starters, maybe 34 for Kemba, and 30 for Fournier, that leaves 20 minutes left for the rest of the roster. But those are pretty light minutes totals, and it’s not hard to see the leftover minutes shrinking to 10 or fewer in closer games.

As things look right now, it seems like Grant, Romeo, and Pritchard are going to get those minutes based more on matchups than talent differences, although there’s a case to be made for Pritchard just getting all of them.

Five positions with 48 minutes each per game = 240 minutes available total.

(4 starters x 36 = 144 minutes) + (34 minutes for Kemba) + (30 for Fournier) = 208 minutes.

240 - 208 = 32 minutes for the bench.

Am I missing something?

Cesar Crespo · Apr 18, 2021

oumbi said:
Five positions with 48 minutes each per game = 240 minutes available total.

(4 starters x 36 = 144 minutes) + (34 minutes for Kemba) + (30 for Fournier) = 208 minutes.

240 - 208 = 32 minutes for the bench.

Am I missing something?

TL isn't play 36 minutes and you are missing TT. TL and TT will combine for about 48 a game. the 3 starters will be at 108. Kemba at 34, 30 for Fournier. That's 220 minutes.

oumbi · Apr 18, 2021

Cesar Crespo said:
TL isn't play 36 minutes and you are missing TT. TL and TT will combine for about 48 a game. the 3 starters will be at 108. Kemba at 34, 30 for Fournier. That's 220 minutes.

Thanks for clearing that up. I was looking strictly at the quoted post.

benhogan · Apr 18, 2021

For the GRANT hand-wringers

We do playoff rotations minutes every year, a few POINTZ:
1. Not all playoff games are created equal, elimination games will shorten rotations
2. Tatum/Brown will average over 84 mpg in close playoff games. They combined for over 80+ mpg in the playoffs last season. Tatum barely breaks a sweat after 40mpg most nights.
3. Brad likes to play the matchups in every series, so it's situational. Vs Philly, Kanter plays. Vs Miami, DNP.

That being said, in an elimination game I'd expect:
TL 28mins
TT 20 mins
Tatum 42 mins
Brown 42 mins
Kemba 38 mins
Smart 38 mins
Fournier 26 mins
Pritchard 6 mins (maybe to balance 1st half substitutions)

I'd work backward from here in Playoff non-elimination games.

I've attached Toronto Game 7 last year. Brad split the Center position between 3 players (DT/TL/GW) and then played the rest of the bench (Wanamaker/Semi) for 18mins. If Gordon Hayward was healthy Wanamaker/Semi don't sniff the court.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/202009110TOR.html

wade boggs chicken dinner · Apr 18, 2021

benhogan said:
I've attached Toronto Game 7 last year. Brad split the Center position between 3 players (DT/TL/GW) and then played the rest of the bench (Wanamaker/Semi) for 18mins. If Gordon Hayward was healthy Wanamaker/Semi don't sniff the court.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/202009110TOR.html

You can also go to G6 v Heat: https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/202009270MIA.html

Brad split C position among DT, TL, Kanter, and GW; played Wanamaker 9 minutes, and that was it.

HomeRunBaker · Apr 18, 2021

Cesar Crespo said:
TL isn't play 36 minutes and you are missing TT. TL and TT will combine for about 48 a game. the 3 starters will be at 108. Kemba at 34, 30 for Fournier. That's 220 minutes.

I wouldn’t assume 48 between TL and TT with Jabari now here. There is also foul trouble, matchups, etc to where we could see quite a bit of Jabari on the floor without either of them.

benhogan · Apr 18, 2021

wade boggs chicken dinner said:
You can also go to G6 v Heat: https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/202009270MIA.html

Brad split C position among DT, TL, Kanter, and GW; played Wanamaker 9 minutes, and that was it.

Thanks.

We spill a lot of ink on #8-17, but the Celtics season will be written by #1-7.

Cesar Crespo · Apr 18, 2021

HomeRunBaker said:
I wouldn’t assume 48 between TL and TT with Jabari now here. There is also foul trouble, matchups, etc to where we could see quite a bit of Jabari on the floor without either of them.

Yeah, I was just clarifying someone else's minutes list. Grant Williams might see time too. Kornet.

radsoxfan · Apr 18, 2021

benhogan said:
Thanks.

We spill a lot of ink on #8-17, but the Celtics season will be written by #1-7.

Agree on this for sure.

If Tatum has put COVID fully behind him, Jaylen solidifies as legit second banana, and Kemba can be an above average NBA PG.... this team can at least make some noise.

Kemba
Smart
Tatum
Brown
Timelord
Fournier
TT

is pretty good if they can get their act together. 90-95% of the minutes in important games will be coming from that group barring injuries.

Jed Zeppelin · Apr 19, 2021

There was a play tonight where Grant was already playing several feet off the perimeter ballhandler, who nonetheless drove by Grant for an easy layup as if he had been turned to stone. Not sure I’ve ever seen a player so slow that you almost wish it was a lack of effort instead because then it might be something you could fix.

Light-Tower-Power · Apr 19, 2021

Jed Zeppelin said:
There was a play tonight where Grant was already playing several feet off the perimeter ballhandler, who nonetheless drove by Grant for an easy layup as if he had been turned to stone. Not sure I’ve ever seen a player so slow that you almost wish it was a lack of effort instead because then it might be something you could fix.

The three on one fast break and ludicrous flop on Vuc were the two Grant highlights that stood out to me tonight. I might have to reread this thread tomorrow because I don’t even remember what Grant Williams: Breakout Rookie looked like.

radsoxfan · Apr 20, 2021

Jed Zeppelin said:
There was a play tonight where Grant was already playing several feet off the perimeter ballhandler, who nonetheless drove by Grant for an easy layup as if he had been turned to stone. Not sure I’ve ever seen a player so slow that you almost wish it was a lack of effort instead because then it might be something you could fix.

It’s becoming grotesque out there, no doubt about it.

In a season when everyone has been out for a myriad of reasons, Grant seems to be the one constantly available. Just our luck.

Would it be too much to ask for him to be the random injury that’s out for a week?

The guy needs to reset. Perhaps we all do.

Jimbodandy · Apr 20, 2021

radsoxfan said:
It’s becoming grotesque out there, no doubt about it.

In a season when everyone has been out for a myriad of reasons, Grant seems to be the one constantly available. Just our luck.

Would it be too much to ask for him to be the random injury that’s out for a week?

The guy needs to reset. Perhaps we all do.

Yeah perhaps

wade boggs chicken dinner · Apr 20, 2021

Light-Tower-Power said:
The three on one fast break and ludicrous flop on Vuc were the two Grant highlights that stood out to me tonight. I might have to reread this thread tomorrow because I don’t even remember what Grant Williams: Breakout Rookie looked like.

The 3-1 FB was not GW's fault; Waters screwed up by not getting to the middle and then by crossing the FT line and then giving the ball to GW where he really had nothing to do. That's on the PG - who can't get the spacing wrong so 1 defender can guard 3 guys.

Also while he flopped against Vuc and didn't get the call when he got T'd up, he did get a charge call shortly after that.

The GW giveth and taketh away.

Jed Zeppelin said:
There was a play tonight where Grant was already playing several feet off the perimeter ballhandler, who nonetheless drove by Grant for an easy layup as if he had been turned to stone. Not sure I’ve ever seen a player so slow that you almost wish it was a lack of effort instead because then it might be something you could fix.

Despite everything we're seeing, CBS played GW played 22+ minutes, which is more than everyone off the bench and more than Semi.

At any rate, maybe this discussion will die down when everyone is healthy, which hopefully starts on Thursday.

HomeRunBaker · Apr 20, 2021

wade boggs chicken dinner said:
The 3-1 FB was not GW's fault; Waters screwed up by not getting to the middle and then by crossing the FT line and then giving the ball to GW where he really had nothing to do. That's on the PG - who can't get the spacing wrong so 1 defender can guard 3 guys.

Even Ainge put it on Grant for not going up for the shot but it wasn’t completely on him as he simply isn’t athletic enough to take off from where Waters delivered him the ball. What he needed to do was take one more quick dribble to allow Grant another step and a half to where he could go right up to the rim. As a PG you must know the capabilities of your teammates and Waters put Grant in no mans land with that pass.

On the first part, Waters had no opportunity to get to the middle as Grant was already running the floor in that lane so he handled that part correctly in attacking from the wing but again it was the timing of the pass that screwed up the break.

wade boggs chicken dinner · Apr 20, 2021

HomeRunBaker said:
Even Ainge put it on Grant for not going up for the shot but it wasn’t completely on him as he simply isn’t athletic enough to take off from where Waters delivered him the ball. What he needed to do was take one more quick dribble to allow Grant another step and a half to where he could go right up to the rim. As a PG you must know the capabilities of your teammates and Waters put Grant in no mans land with that pass.

On the first part, Waters had no opportunity to get to the middle as Grant was already running the floor in that lane so he handled that part correctly in attacking from the wing but again it was the timing of the pass that screwed up the break.

The beginning of the FB is below. TW takes one more dribble and gets the ball to GW at the top of the key. There is nothing GW can do with the ball at that point other than try to shuffle it to JB .

If TW can't cut inside of GW and try to get him to get outside of him, then IMO TW should slow down or pull the ball out and create some spacing. The last thing he can do is get the ball to GW where he did. Again, IMO.

I will say that GW should have pulled the ball out after he got the rebound on the JB miss but that's a super hard play to make in that situation.

HomeRunBaker · Apr 20, 2021

wade boggs chicken dinner said:
The beginning of the FB is below. TW takes one more dribble and gets the ball to GW at the top of the key. There is nothing GW can do with the ball at that point other than try to shuffle it to JB .

If TW can't cut inside of GW and try to get him to get outside of him, then IMO TW should slow down or pull the ball out and create some spacing. The last thing he can do is get the ball to GW where he did. Again, IMO.

I will say that GW should have pulled the ball out after he got the rebound on the JB miss but that's a super hard play to make in that situation.

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I agree on Waters putting Grant in a difficult spot with that pass. This is timing and being on the bench all year without practice time surely played a factor. As far as the break you cannot allow the two trailing defenders into the play and Grant was in full steam so cutting him off with the dribble would be the worst thing Waters could do. The way this play developed Jaylen is out of the play even though he’s running the floor.....it’s essentially a 2-on-1 which in the NBA still should result in a layup/dunk but Waters timing was just off on the pass.

Auger34 · Apr 20, 2021

HomeRunBaker said:
Even Ainge put it on Grant for not going up for the shot but it wasn’t completely on him as he simply isn’t athletic enough to take off from where Waters delivered him the ball. What he needed to do was take one more quick dribble to allow Grant another step and a half to where he could go right up to the rim. As a PG you must know the capabilities of your teammates and Waters put Grant in no mans land with that pass.

On the first part, Waters had no opportunity to get to the middle as Grant was already running the floor in that lane so he handled that part correctly in attacking from the wing but again it was the timing of the pass that screwed up the break.

HRB, it seems like you watched the Celtics broadcast last night (with Ainge doing color).

Did you come away thinking that it was pretty clear that Danny thought a lot less of Grant (as a player) than Brad did? Given the situation, he seemed fairly critical of Grant a few times...more than any other player (to me at least)

BaseballJones · Apr 20, 2021

That might be because Grant made some really bad plays in big spots last night. There was one play where he got the ball in the corner and had a shooter on the wing WIDE OPEN, but instead chose to drive baseline and got it stolen from him. Danny had something to say about that one, saying that Grant was "trying to do too much".

HomeRunBaker · Apr 20, 2021

tbb345 said:
HRB, it seems like you watched the Celtics broadcast last night (with Ainge doing color).

Did you come away thinking that it was pretty clear that Danny thought a lot less of Grant (as a player) than Brad did? Given the situation, he seemed fairly critical of Grant a few times...more than any other player (to me at least)

* I watched part of it. He def didn’t appear happy at how Grant played and it was stunning to me to hear him criticize Grant for the pass to Jaylen rather than to Waters for putting him in that position. It could also simply be that Ainge isn’t happy that he has a player on the floor who isn’t long enough to be able to still get to the rim on that catch even though for Grant it had to be a better pass. Ainge was also on Grant for flopping then when he didn’t get a call a couple trips later down the floor he said with a tone that “Maybe if he didn’t flop the other time he would have gotten that call.” Yeah, clearly not happy with his play.

* I did laugh when Waters was in the game in the 2H and Ainge’s response to this was (paraphrasing), “Wow, Waters. Really didn’t expect to see him here.” Last night was a good example of Waters fitting into my Ish Smith ceiling......it likely won’t come here but he can find a spot in the league one day if he’s persistent with this.

* The other thing that was noticeable was following the game when Scal was found the ole “Danny it was great to have you hear I hope you enjoyed it..... when Ainge interjected about how it sucked as steam was coming out of his ears as how we closed out the game. My sense was that it was directed toward Tatum for his careless TO with a min left and his overall response to the 4Q. With about 7 min to go Ainge was saying how this is the time when we miss Kemba’s leadership.....which certainly was a plea for Tatum to step up which he didn’t.

DeJesus Built My Hotrod · Apr 20, 2021

tbb345 said:
HRB, it seems like you watched the Celtics broadcast last night (with Ainge doing color).

Did you come away thinking that it was pretty clear that Danny thought a lot less of Grant (as a player) than Brad did? Given the situation, he seemed fairly critical of Grant a few times...more than any other player (to me at least)

I listened and did not come away with the impression that Ainge was more frustrated with Grant Williams than other Celtics players but that is simply my perception. This forum is very extreme in terms of poster bias imo and I think the people who post here regularly see what they are looking for, while often missing other important plays, sets, etc. If anything, Ainge was generally frustrated with the overall team defense which was suffering because of absences and ultimately his roster choices. But aside from wanting to criticize the officials whom he and Scal danced around in hilarious fashion, I didn't come away with Ainge being down on Williams at all (he praised him at various points) - I get that Williams detractors might have heard differently.

Auger34 · Apr 20, 2021

HomeRunBaker said:
* I watched part of it. He def didn’t appear happy at how Grant played and it was stunning to me to hear him criticize Grant for the pass to Jaylen rather than to Waters for putting him in that position. It could also simply be that Ainge isn’t happy that he has a player on the floor who isn’t long enough to be able to still get to the rim on that catch even though for Grant it had to be a better pass.

* I did laugh when Waters was in the game in the 2H and Ainge’s response to this was (paraphrasing), “Wow, Waters. Really didn’t expect to see him here.” Last night was a good example of Waters fitting into my Ish Smith ceiling......it likely won’t come here but he can find a spot in the league one day if he’s persistent with this.

* The other thing that was noticeable was following the game when Scal was found the ole “Danny it was great to have you hear I hope you enjoyed it..... when Ainge interjected about how it sucked as steam was coming out of his ears as how we closed out the game. My sense was that it was directed toward Tatum for his careless TO with a min left and his overall response to the 4Q. With about 7 min to go Ainge was saying how this is the time when we miss Kemba’s leadership.....which certainly was a plea for Tatum to step up which he didn’t.

That Waters quote was the best part of last night.

I posted this in another thread but the two things that were very apparent to me were:
- Danny thinks a lot of Romeo Langford (“Romie”) and seems like he wants him to play more. He complimented Langford more than any other player.
- And Danny’s feelings for Grant are the complete opposite

HomeRunBaker · Apr 20, 2021

tbb345 said:
That Waters quote was the best part of last night.

I posted this in another thread but the two things that were very apparent to me were:
- Danny thinks a lot of Romeo Langford (“Romie”) and seems like he wants him to play more. He complimented Langford more than any other player.
- And Danny’s feelings for Grant are the complete opposite

Yes on both counts. I forgot to include his Romeo praise and I edited above to include Ainge not being able to get Grant’s flop out of his head.

Light-Tower-Power · Apr 20, 2021

HomeRunBaker said:
With about 7 min to go Ainge was saying how this is the time when we miss Kemba’s leadership.....which certainly was a plea for Tatum to step up which he didn’t.

This stuck out to me at the time as well. He specifically mentioned Kemba and Smart's leadership being missed. Hopefully he'll be talking about Tatum and Brown's leadership in a couple years.

Auger34 · Apr 20, 2021

HomeRunBaker said:
Yes on both counts. I forgot to include his Romeo praise and I edited above to include Ainge not being able to get Grant’s flop out of his head.

He not only didn’t get Grants flop out of his head but there were two instances where I think he wanted to say more but stopped himself.

-When Grant got the T, Ainge pretty clearly thought it was ridiculous on Grant’s part. Not only did make the comment about flipping before but he thought he was flopping again on the second no call (before Grant got up and got the T). He said something along the lines of “Maybe he gets that call if he doesn’t flop the first time *replay shows the play where Grant gets the T* and........” then he trailed off and seemed to compose himself before saying “Grant’s frustrated”.

-The play where Grant actually got the call he was about to call it a flop but thought better of it and said something like “good hustle”

Auger34 · Apr 20, 2021

DeJesus Built My Hotrod said:
I listened and did not come away with the impression that Ainge was more frustrated with Grant Williams than other Celtics players but that is simply my perception. This forum is very extreme in terms of poster bias imo and I think the people who post here regularly see what they are looking for, while often missing other important plays, sets, etc. If anything, Ainge was generally frustrated with the overall team defense which was suffering because of absences and ultimately his roster choices. But aside from wanting to criticize the officials whom he and Scal danced around in hilarious fashion, I didn't come away with Ainge being down on Williams at all (he praised him at various points) - I get that Williams detractors might have heard differently.

I agree with you for the most part.
Danny DEFINITELY has a higher opinion of Grant than I do and he didn’t come out and definitively say anything like “Grant’s garbage, bench him now” (which is what I said multiple times)

However, while you’re right that he was down on the team defense (he sighed and talked about lack of communication multiple times), I never heard him specify a player (other than Jabari Parker but it was more in the sense of he just signed here so what do you expect)
He just mentioned the team and how they all need to work together. The only player I heard him specifically say anything (even somewhat) negative about was Grant. (Although the Waters quote when he saw he was in the game was probably negative)

I didn’t come away from it thinking Danny thought Grant sucked or anything like that. I did come away with the impression that he’s not nearly as high on him as Brad is and doesn’t think he should be getting as many minutes

DeJesus Built My Hotrod · Apr 20, 2021

As a side note, the absolute best part of that broadcast of an otherwise tough game to watch was Scal saying that Zarren gave him specific instructions on keeping Danny away from discussions about the officiating. Scal almost couldn't help himself as he kept wanting to drag the refs - he goes there a fair bit - but then let everyone in on why he could not. Scal was like a kid who knows its wrong to go "there" but cannot seem to stop themselves from getting a closer look.

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