I know last CBA (or the one prior) had a cap of $3m that a team could include as part of a trade. I’m unsure of what the number is now but I’d guess it is in that vacinity.
Celtics Plan, Summer 2021
- Thread starter lovegtm
- Start date
Teams can include cash in a deal, but they cannot exceed a specified amount each season (was about $5.6M for 2019-20). The limit is based on the salary cap.
https://cbabreakdown.com/trades/
I think both of these answers are correct. You can send cash to offset salary (a limited amount per year) but that cash doesn't lower the amount of salary that will count against the acquiring teams cap.
The Celtics just sent $1.3 million in cash to Chicago along with Theis and Javonte Green. But that money doesn't hit the Celtics cap or reduce the cap hit for Chicago.
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Sending over cash helps the bottom line so if a player is moved to a team that isn't worried about luxury tax it's more like MLB.
That makes sense, thanks. I still imagine the small market GM holding his hat out and saying ‘well my owner is on the fence about that trade ...can you throw in another 750k in a briefcase?
To your point, 2nd round picks (and occasionally firsts ) are certainly bought and sold like currency so it’s just about managing a bottom line.
Looking at the cap space situation in the summer, it seems like:
NYK will have a ton (over $60 million)
San Antonio will also have a ton ($47 million)
OKC will have $43 million
And then Dallas, Miami, Cleveland, Toronto will have $20-30 million under the cap. There are no real max level free agents, though, so I'm curious if folks here think it would be outlandish for NYK or SA, two teams that might have designs on being competitive next year, to just take Kemba into their space for next to nothing (2nd round pick?)?
The reasoning for those teams would be that it's just two years of Kemba as opposed to four years of Victor Oladipo (or Kyle Lowry or Derozan) and if it doesn't cost anything besides money, he could be a reasonable fallback option if they strike out on their higher priority free agents.
Doesn't seem impossible to me considering how devoid of talent the FA market will be this year. I'm fine with letting Kemba go for nothing, considering the flexibility it would offer.
NYK will have a ton (over $60 million)
San Antonio will also have a ton ($47 million)
OKC will have $43 million
And then Dallas, Miami, Cleveland, Toronto will have $20-30 million under the cap. There are no real max level free agents, though, so I'm curious if folks here think it would be outlandish for NYK or SA, two teams that might have designs on being competitive next year, to just take Kemba into their space for next to nothing (2nd round pick?)?
The reasoning for those teams would be that it's just two years of Kemba as opposed to four years of Victor Oladipo (or Kyle Lowry or Derozan) and if it doesn't cost anything besides money, he could be a reasonable fallback option if they strike out on their higher priority free agents.
Doesn't seem impossible to me considering how devoid of talent the FA market will be this year. I'm fine with letting Kemba go for nothing, considering the flexibility it would offer.
The Spurs aren’t touching Kemba, IMO. They can just re-up Patty Mills, a guy they really like, for 2 years at like 1/3 the price. And they’re already a guard-heavy team with Murray/White signed long-term.
I don't really see what Patty Mills has to do with it. He's older than Kemba and is a decent bench player, but they couldn't even find a trading partner for him this year. Their offense stinks already and they don't have many scoring options once Derozan leaves. They're exchanging Derozan's salary slot for Kemba's and probably for less years.
That's exactly it - I don't think ownership wants to dip into the tax for a second round exit.
The Spurs just extended their two young starting PGs and are pairing them in the backcourt together. They wouldn’t have any reason to pursue Kemba.
They have Murray and White and Mills off the bench. They have zero need for Kemba and zero reason to tie up cap space for him.
If they think the ceiling of a kemba smart brown fournier tatum williams team is a 2nd round exit then they need to consider making much bigger changes than giving up kemba for nothing
They also just reset the tax, going over it next year won't cost them much
It's really hard to sign a RFA. The signing team is taking a huge risk that they can come to an agreement with the team that has the rights (or create a contract structure so crazy that the team doesn't want to match).
My point was not that this is the best idea for either SAS or NYK, but rather wondering if it's a possibility considering the circumstances.
Thought bleacher report threw togethr an interesting off-season trade with the Clippers.
BOS - Beverley, Zubac, Kennard
LAC - Kemba, TT
BOS - Beverley, Zubac, Kennard
LAC - Kemba, TT
I don’t understand that from the Clippers perspective. TT and Zubac play similar roles but Kemba seems like an awful fit off the ball with the offense running through Kawhi and George while Kennard is ideal there in his role creating space and shooting 3’s at 46%.
Yeah, doesn't make sense to me. Although not gonna lie, I'd be salivating at a 2-4 rotation of Jaylen/Tatum/Kennard/Fournier/Romeo, so I'll just enjoy this morning fantasy a bit longer.
FWIW, both Kennard and Zubac ON/OFF has been terrible with the Clippers this season. Frank/Lue may be frustrated with their minutes. $20MM/yr combined long term, for those 2 role players (both play ~ 20mpg), may motivate a trade. Terrence Mann could replace Kennard minutes, and Tristan is a defensive upgrade to Zubac. Kemba offensive upgrade to Beverly.
I've always been a Beverly honk so sign me up. Zubac/Kennard are very efficient shooters, so I like them around JayRob.
Clippers may value Tristan's presence (who has played good over the last few months) and veteran Kemba (some feel hiding PG defense isn't that tricky).
With Beverly and Smart, Danny would just need to add Stan Jonathan to the bench. No opponent leaves the Garden alive.
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Clips need a legit PG---they just traded for Rondo which shows their level of desparation for something from the point. They also have virtually no assets to get one, so they are going to be desparate. I agree wtih HRB that it might not be a great fit, though I think Clips are likely all-in already on PG/Kawhi and recognize the long-term impact of dealing Zubac is limited. I also think if your big 3 is Kawhi, Kemba, and PG you are only going to have to worry about all three being available a fraction of the time!
Kennard should have worked better but has been a complete bust to date. We'll see what happens rest of way.
I agree it's unclear it really helps Celtics though---they can't re-use the Walker money really and the upside of a rotation with no PG seems limited. Zubac is a nice get, but the minutes with TL aren't as impactful and while Kennard might be a good fit, I am unsure. So I guess it comes down to whether dealing Kemba lets them keep Fournier, TL, etc. as well as add Kennard because otherwise I'm not sure it's worth it.
Kennard should have worked better but has been a complete bust to date. We'll see what happens rest of way.
I agree it's unclear it really helps Celtics though---they can't re-use the Walker money really and the upside of a rotation with no PG seems limited. Zubac is a nice get, but the minutes with TL aren't as impactful and while Kennard might be a good fit, I am unsure. So I guess it comes down to whether dealing Kemba lets them keep Fournier, TL, etc. as well as add Kennard because otherwise I'm not sure it's worth it.
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How does this work money-wise?
Beverley + Zubac + Kennard = $33MM
Kemba + TT = $45MM
Clippers create a hole by moving three rotation players for two, plus lose their best (although declining) defensive guard.
Celtics give up the best player in the deal and go back to square one with their putrid bench offense.
?
The Celtics bench offense improves with a shooter like Kennard and efficient scoring BIG like Zubac. Defense from the starting 5 has been an issue and immediately improves with Beverly sliding into Kemba's spot. Plus he's a better off-ball 3pt shooter (~40% the last 4 seasons) than Kemba. Celtics get younger in the process
Backchannel with RFA players agent. Getting caught isn't costly.
I'm not sure NOP will match a MAX for the Lonz. May want to work a S&T
I still don't believe Lonzo is getting anywhere near the max. I guess we'll see. Wicked overpay.
Griffin and Rose will be able to depress his contract while adding more trade value for NOP.
Klutch may flex its muscle if they sniff collusion to get it to MAX.
NBA GM/Agent black arts will be at work
The risk is the matching, as that is out of the control of the player's agent. A matched RFA has no option but to return to their original team. The issue is that the current team has 48 hours to match; however, the acquiring team has to reserve the cap space. Not much anyone can do if the Pelicans take 47.5 hours to match the offer. And then the Knicks would have missed out on the feeding frenzy that happens in those first 48 hours.
Not sure that even the Knicks offer Lonzo a max. If they offer less, the matching risk goes up. My guess is that Lonzo would still be around after those first 48 hours, so maybe missing out on those first tier of UFA's is not such a big risk in this instance.
It's not collusion if no GM thinks that Lonzo is worth the max. Klutch really cannot do much.
The original point was there was a lot of $$$ for a limited number of free agents which would boost Kemba's value. But people forget about the RFA. The cheaper those RFA go for the less appealing Kemba's contract is.
It doesn't have to be MAX if Griffin and Rose work out a deal that suppresses Ball's contract size (in both NYK/NOP interests to do that). I imagine Klutch would be hot and fight back on not getting every last penny.
Klutch probably feels they are above RFA/CBA
They'd lose the fight. They'd have to negotiate to get rid of RFA in the next CBA. Or go on strike I guess.
Any (non covid) work stoppage in a major sport right now would be a death sentence.
I'm from the David Falk era, where agents decide who plays where and for how much.
Agreed, Klutch has no grounds, but they won't want a high profile client of theirs to appear to have been "played" by the system
I honestly think Ball ends up in Charlotte but maybe I'm just being too simple with my thinking. I'm not sure NO wants him back at a big price tag and Charlotte seems like the type of team to overpay for him. There's the super obvious connection there too.
I think we can agree that Klutch will do everything in their power to get the Pelicans to move Lonzo if that's what their client wants. And, in that case, the Pelicans will probably find some way to make it happen while maximizing their own return.
But all sides know that RFA does limit their options somewhat, and that there's zero chance of getting the CBA amended mid-stream. But the chances that Lonzo will have to settle for less than the max are high, and there is really not much Klutch can do about that.
I think Ball will set an NBA record this year too but I have no idea how to confirm it or find out.
Worst season from the line: .417
Currently: .792.
That has to be the biggest gap from worst to best season from the line.
Ball is actually 6-8 months younger than I thought. I feel like he's close to his ceiling but he's only 23.5 so who knows. His shooting has improved a ton since entering the league but the rest of his game really hasn't. Of course, the rest of his game was fairly well developed upon entering the NBA.
Even without any improvement, he'd be a perfect fit on the C's. Earlier in the year I thought he would be somewhat redundant with Smart but I don't think that's the case anymore. His shot is for real. I don't know. I like him considerably more than Marcus Smart but I wouldn't go much higher than 4/80 on Ball.
Worst season from the line: .417
Currently: .792.
That has to be the biggest gap from worst to best season from the line.
Ball is actually 6-8 months younger than I thought. I feel like he's close to his ceiling but he's only 23.5 so who knows. His shooting has improved a ton since entering the league but the rest of his game really hasn't. Of course, the rest of his game was fairly well developed upon entering the NBA.
Even without any improvement, he'd be a perfect fit on the C's. Earlier in the year I thought he would be somewhat redundant with Smart but I don't think that's the case anymore. His shot is for real. I don't know. I like him considerably more than Marcus Smart but I wouldn't go much higher than 4/80 on Ball.
If you're signing him, isn't that probably as part of a trade to move Smart? I don't think they're on-court redundant, but I don't think they can pay him+Smart.
Agreed. They can't do a thing, but I imagine they are working behind the scenes right now.
Yea, I always kind of considered the Lonz a novelty act until this season. I wonder if his younger brother motivated him to get his act together or the lure of getting paid got him focused?
At his age and the leap he made, 4/$80MM is an absolute steal. Especially with a weak UFA market.
Yeah, probably. I wonder if NO would be interested in Smart. I think they'd might actually be. He'd be a cheaper alternative to Ball.
He was pretty good last year too and he's also at that age where players take steps and leaps. He's only 4 months older than Tatum. A lot of his problems in the early going was shot selection. The rest of the game was always there.
This year changes things though. Last year was the first year he shot well from 3 but the distractors would point out how terrible his FT shooting is and how that's predictive of future 3 point shooting. That makes no sense for a player like Ball though, where the sample size for 3s is literally 6 times more. That, and this year he's actually hitting his FTs. Granted it's only 48 attempts but it's right in line with the rest of his career.
4/80 is a good deal and a steal if he improves, but if this is what Ball is, I'm not sure he's worth much more than that. He's there with Aaron Gordon, Harrison Barnes, Evan Fournier. Some team may pay for youth and upside though.
It feels like a Brogdon situation, where there might be a deal to be made at that price range, if NO gets something back.
Smart reportedly had interest from Atlanta, and they're in a similar spot to NO: lots of young talent, need a tough-nosed small wing defender glue-guy type. The Celtics are in a bit of a different spot, since what they really need is a big non-attacking PG to play D, shoot, and bring the ball up for Tatum/Brown to run the offense. Smart himself can be that, but I like Lonzo better because of the additional upside.
Yeah, Lonzo adds that extra little bit of passing and shooting over Smart, which has a compounding effect.
It's common for the PG in the Celtics offense to get the ball swung back to him in an advantageous position to shoot or pass. Smart is actually pretty decent in that spot, but I think Lonzo is better.
I don't get the impression Lonzo has any interest in playing with his brother, I think they want to arrange a S&T to Chicago.
Lonzo does seem like he can shoot now. He still can't drive, and his defense is actually not very good. It isn't that bad either, but he had a solid defensive year a couple years ago that built his rep, but the last 2 he's a league averagish defender, worse than Smart on that end by a really big margin. Lonzo isn't a bad fit, but I think for what I expect him to get paid you can find better options than a 3pt shooting good passer who doesn't do much else.
Yeah, by the sounds of it. He's not worth close to the max. He's in the same place Aaron Gordon, Victor Oladipo and Zach LaVine were in. I think at that money, he's a good sign.
At Jaylen money, no thanks.
They can't. Not without losing Kemba since a sign & trade hard caps the team and between Tatum, Brown, Walker, and (presumably Fournier) they'd be around $112 million.
ha, yea, the Celtics are boxed out of RFA. #@! that Kemba contract
I was going down the Knicks offseason pathway, always a dangerous guessing game
It would be AMAZING if the Celtics get Lonzo, he "fits" here and the Celtics come away from that draft avoiding Fultz and getting Tatum and Ball.
Agree with the fit but don't thinks it's possible due to cap/money/location.
Ultimately you'd like to replace Kemba with Lonzo and win numerous Championships from 2023-26
Heh, I wouldn't mind a healthy Fultz on this team but we obviously dodged a bullet not drafting him. I think trading for him is a different matter. Josh Jackson could possibly be available at the end of the season too. I don't know if Detroit will want to keep him or not. Probably. I don't want JJ though. I just think Fultz has a bunch of upside if he comes back healthy. I don't see it with JJ.