Getting Smart with Statistics

ColonelMustard

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Shot putting the ball on a jump ball (3rd Q?) and not letting the clock expire for NO was an incredibly boneheaded move. It changed the momentum.

If he gets credit for his intangibles, he should also get criticism.
 
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Light-Tower-Power

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I'm not sure what was worse - chucking the ball at the basket off the tip or chucking up an early in the clock three the possession immediately after that.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I'm not sure what was worse - chucking the ball at the basket off the tip or chucking up an early in the clock three the possession immediately after that.
He had to make up for it. The problem with Smart is he'll skip the small play to make the big play. He doesn't really do the little things, he does the big things.

I'm sure he does do the little things, but it doesn't feel like it.
 

CoffeeNerdness

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Hucking the ball to Lucky 30 ft behind the backboard was clearly the much worse play of the two.

The guy is on-tilt for some reason. If he's not yelling at the refs he's yelling at his teammates and just generally gives off a kinda toxic vibe. It sucks he's quickly morphing from fan favorite to fan target.
 

ZMart100

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While that play was weird, the sequence that started by drawing the foul on Zion put them back in the game. He's an agent of chaos, which is much more fun when the Cs win.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I'm not sure what was worse - chucking the ball at the basket off the tip or chucking up an early in the clock three the possession immediately after that.
To me, losing track or misunderstanding the rule isn't a problem. It happens. I mean I don't think I've ever seen a situation where the ref threw the jump ball and neither guy went for it so they had to re-jump.

Trying to bail yourself out by taking a bad and early shot the next time down is worse IMO. Players have to move to the next play when they make a mistake.
 

Light-Tower-Power

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I can help you with this. It was chucking the ball at the basket off the tip.
Well yes. My point was that it's frustrating to watch him compound mistakes with more mistakes. Instead of just laughing it off and admitting his mistake, he had the audacity to defend that play to his teammates then immediately follow it up with a bad, selfish shot on the other end.
 

DGreenwood

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Well yes. My point was that it's frustrating to watch him compound mistakes with more mistakes. Instead of just laughing it off and admitting his mistake, he had the audacity to defend that play to his teammates then immediately follow it up with a bad, selfish shot on the other end.
Yeah, I agree with you. The brain fart was one play, it's not a big deal in a vacuum. But after that play, Smart (and the whole team, really) played like shit. It's like they let that play, and the argument after the play, unravel things.

But I'll forget about this whole game fairly soon, with the exception of that half court chuck; that memory will stick with me.
 

bankshot1

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Marcus plays with a lot of emotion and intensity which is generally a good thing but he can get stubborn, which gets in the way.

TimeLord should talk to him about situational clock management.

maybe his teamates can chip in and buy him a Rolex

laugh it off and manage this shit-show of a season as best as possibe
 

Cesar Crespo

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Marcus plays with a lot of emotion and intensity which is generally a good thing but he can get stubborn, which gets in the way.

TimeLord should talk to him about situational clock management.

laugh it off and manage this shit-show of a season as best as possibe
Or they'll just lose in the ECF and everything will be forgiven. The last few seasons have been shit shows.
 

Bleedred

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Marcus is who he is at this point. He's incredibly tough, willing to put his ass on the line and has great intangibles more often than not. A good passer when focused, gritty, very good to almost great defender. Balance that with an over-inflated sense of his ability (see shot selection, 3 point selection, frequency of 3 point shooting). He can go on heaters, as we've seen, and those are sublime, but at his core, he's a lousy 3 point shooter, a slightly better but still below average 2 point shooter and he's prone to big big brain cramps. He is a valuable NBA player and was a really good draft pick. But he is who he is.

Edit: As of this morning, he's the 9th worst 3 point shooter by % in the NBA for those that qualify.

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/stats/player/scoring/nba/regular/all-pos/qualifiers/?sortcol=3fg%&sortdir=descending&page=4
 

Cesar Crespo

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Marcus is who he is at this point. He's incredibly tough, willing to put his ass on the line and has great intangibles more often than not. A good passer when focused, gritty, very good to almost great defender. Balance that with an over-inflated sense of his ability (see shot selection, 3 point selection, frequency of 3 point shooting). He can go on heaters, as we've seen, and those are sublime, but at his core, he's a lousy 3 point shooter, a slightly better but still below average 2 point shooter and he's prone to big big brain cramps. He is a valuable NBA player and was a really good draft pick. But he is who he is.
He's Trot Nixon.
 

bankshot1

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Or they'll just lose in the ECF and everything will be forgiven. The last few seasons have been shit shows.
They are unlikely to get to the ECF this year. This year has been a mess and I'm not sure they can fix it.

But I don't feel cheated in the least watching the Celt play the last few years. Circumstances bit them is the ass hard, but they generally played hard and played well and were fun to watch.
 

nighthob

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They are unlikely to get to the ECF this year. This year has been a mess and I'm not sure they can fix it.

But I don't feel cheated in the least watching the Celt play the last few years. Circumstances bit them is the ass hard, but they generally played hard and played well and were fun to watch.
Yeah, I mean Covid Season v2.0 has sucked. But aside from Kyrie’s first season playing for Brooklyn (2019) this has been a fun team to watch.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Yeah, I mean Covid Season v2.0 has sucked. But aside from Kyrie’s first season playing for Brooklyn (2019) this has been a fun team to watch.
So you are saying last season and this season suck? Or that this season is enjoyable? Because this is only Kyrie's 2nd season in Brooklyn.

You are basically saying the team hasn't been enjoyable since Kyrie left.
 

Light-Tower-Power

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So you are saying last season and this season suck? Or that this season is enjoyable? Because this is only Kyrie's 2nd season in Brooklyn.

You are basically saying the team hasn't been enjoyable since Kyrie left.
I think the joke was that Kyrie was so checked out in 2019 he was already playing for Brooklyn.
 

NomarsFool

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I think the post-Covid phase of last season was quite enjoyable, as we saw Tatum's tremendous leap from really good player to star. It was diminished, unfortunately, with Hayward's injury and the struggle the team had in the playoffs. But, I felt like the style of play last season was enjoyable to watch.

The early part of this season was enjoyable to see Jaylen Brown's step up - although not nearly as much as Tatum, of course. Since that time, however, it's been a bit of a slog - with the exception of seeing what Rob Williams has one with some more playing time. Unfortunately, the team is just pretty mediocre and the style of play is not terribly fun to watch. As has been mentioned innumerable times, too much iso play, too much fall away jumpers, and too much of a three point shooting contest. As a fan, I like ball and player movement - it's enjoyable to watch. I realize that shooting foul shots can be good from an effectiveness standpoint (not that the Celtics shoot very many) but as a fan, I think free throws are pretty boring. It's not the same thing, but it's sort of like in baseball - walks are great from an offense standpoint, but pretty boring from an entertainment perspective.
 

bakahump

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Bone head play off the tip. But there is a place for Smart on this (currently constructed) team ON OFFENSE. His drives through the defense tonight were great. He should do that 5-7 times a game (as he did tonight.) Timelord has opposing bigs shitting their pants and refusing to leave him for fear of being Ooped on. That opens space for Smart to Finish. His passing going through the lane allows him to hit a guy for a corner 3. And with Fournier in the fold (I know auspicious start be damned) Jaylen, Fournier, Jayson (and Kemba) with TL and Smart spread the floor so the drive is there at will. Tough game last night. But I think this new "system" is going to give Smart the "offensive feel good" he needs to be engaged and do the Smarty Things without needing him to jack up 7-10 3s per game. Brad should in no uncertain terms tell him "Drive all you want in that lineup, But you get no more then 3 3pt tries per game." 12-16 pts and 5 ish assists and the "SMart" plays would turn him back into a fantastic complimentary player.
 

nighthob

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So you are saying last season and this season suck? Or that this season is enjoyable? Because this is only Kyrie's 2nd season in Brooklyn.

You are basically saying the team hasn't been enjoyable since Kyrie left.
Traditionally when talking about NBA seasons we use the year the season ends. The 2007 Celtics were not a historically good team, the 2008 Celtics were. These are the 2021 Celtics, not the 2020 ones. Kyrie wore a Boston uniform in the 2019 season, but he was playing for the Nets (after all, he’d signed with them in December of 2018).

And while this season, Covid season v2.0, has sucked, last season was a lot of fun. You were the one that called the ECF runs a shitshow. I can’t imagine how miserable you need to be to watch a team built around two guys on rookie deals making deep playoff runs every year and still be miserable.

Also I’m not sure how you read “Aside from this season and Kyrie’s last season this has been a fun team to watch” and somehow decided that I agreed with you.
 

NomarsFool

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Smart is very good at driving and dishing. The problem is, he is terrible at driving and finishing. What I don't know is, if he drives and never tries to finish, do opposing teams wise up to that? Or, is it just instinctually impossible to let somebody go in for a layup without trying to stop them?

My perception is that the majority of Smart's drives have little to no actual intention of making a basket - he just throws it up there with an "Aiyeee!" hoping to get a foul call that rarely comes. Not my favorite type of basketball play.
 

JCizzle

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Well yes. My point was that it's frustrating to watch him compound mistakes with more mistakes. Instead of just laughing it off and admitting his mistake, he had the audacity to defend that play to his teammates then immediately follow it up with a bad, selfish shot on the other end.
This was the worst part to me. It was a funny brain fart, that happens. Blaming everyone else afterwards - even in the heat of the moment - is pretty shitty.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Traditionally when talking about NBA seasons we use the year the season ends. The 2007 Celtics were not a historically good team, the 2008 Celtics were. These are the 2021 Celtics, not the 2020 ones. Kyrie wore a Boston uniform in the 2019 season, but he was playing for the Nets (after all, he’d signed with them in December of 2018).

And while this season, Covid season v2.0, has sucked, last season was a lot of fun. You were the one that called the ECF runs a shitshow. I can’t imagine how miserable you need to be to watch a team built around two guys on rookie deals making deep playoff runs every year and still be miserable.

Also I’m not sure how you read “Aside from this season and Kyrie’s last season this has been a fun team to watch” and somehow decided that I agreed with you.
I didn't understand what you meant because you said Kyrie's 1st season in Brooklyn and used 2019. He started his career in Brooklyn in 2019. Maybe be more clear with your jokes. Or don't make shitty jokes.

I also didn't say the last 4 years were shit shows, just that a few of them were and any and all criticism of Ainge and Stevens is brushed off with "But the ECFs." Just like this year will be if they make the ECF.
 

slamminsammya

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This was the worst part to me. It was a funny brain fart, that happens. Blaming everyone else afterwards - even in the heat of the moment - is pretty shitty.
I dont know how anyone is concluding he blamed anyone else. We have no idea what he said. It was a hilarious moment and people were losing their damned minds in the game thread which made it even better.

It is amazing after 7 seasons of being like this people are still not adjusted to the Marcus Smart experience. He's a good player who gives you a lot of bad plays and a lot of amazing plays.
 

nighthob

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I didn't understand what you meant because you said Kyrie's 1st season in Brooklyn and used 2019. He started his career in Brooklyn in 2019. Maybe be more clear with your jokes. Or don't make shitty jokes.
Kyrie put on the Brooklyn uniform for the 2020 season, not the 2019 one. Maybe you could try being a little less miserable?
 

Cesar Crespo

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Kyrie put on the Brooklyn uniform for the 2020 season, not the 2019 one. Maybe you could try being a little less miserable?
Dude, if someone asked you when Gordan Hayward made his Celtics debut, what year would you use?

It's fine. I asked you to clarify and you did. Then you got mad in the process and now I'm the miserable one.
 

jezza1918

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I dont know how anyone is concluding he blamed anyone else. We have no idea what he said. It was a hilarious moment and people were losing their damned minds in the game thread which made it even better.

It is amazing after 7 seasons of being like this people are still not adjusted to the Marcus Smart experience. He's a good player who gives you a lot of bad plays and a lot of amazing plays.
While I agree with the bolded and am a huge Smart defender amongst my family (who have all irrationally hated him since the beginning), the only issue I have is he hasn't shown much growth for figuring out how to lessen the negative impact. It's a bit apples and oranges, but in many ways he reminds me of Brad Marchand. The first half of his career or so seemed to be marked with taking some really dumb penalties, a little too much one on three hockey, etc. Something clicked for him (whether this was his own work, coaching, Chara/Bergy getting in his face, or some combo, is up for debate), but he's been a top NHL player the last few seasons as a result.

Every athlete is different though, and it's quite possible that we wouldn't get the amazing plays without the bad plays.
 

slamminsammya

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I am merely one poster but this back and forth about whether Kyrie was in 2019 or 2018 or whatever is boring and has nothing to do with Marcus Smart.

On topic, I do think one reason it appears like he hasn't cleaned up the bad plays is because the bad and the good both come from the same place of tremendous confidence and will, and so its hard for him to calibrate that when its instinctual like that. This is just armchair psychologizing but it makes sense to me.
 

bakahump

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Smart is very good at driving and dishing. The problem is, he is terrible at driving and finishing. What I don't know is, if he drives and never tries to finish, do opposing teams wise up to that? Or, is it just instinctually impossible to let somebody go in for a layup without trying to stop them?

My perception is that the majority of Smart's drives have little to no actual intention of making a basket - he just throws it up there with an "Aiyeee!" hoping to get a foul call that rarely comes. Not my favorite type of basketball play.
I think overall your probably right. Last night however you are wrong. He was very good at finishing last night. I am *hoping thats because there is a little more space with OFornier instead of Oforjelye (and the O Like) and because now teams Do indeed need to account for Timelord hovering near the rim.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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But I think this new "system" is going to give Smart the "offensive feel good" he needs to be engaged and do the Smarty Things without needing him to jack up 7-10 3s per game. Brad should in no uncertain terms tell him "Drive all you want in that lineup, But you get no more then 3 3pt tries per game." 12-16 pts and 5 ish assists and the "SMart" plays would turn him back into a fantastic complimentary player.
Go to NBA.com and look at Smart's shots (well, prior to the Heave). His first 4 3Ps were uncontested. He kind of has to take those shots.
 

TripleOT

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If Smart just concentrated on driving to the basket for layups, lobs, or kickouts, the Celtics would be so much better off. I know he doesn’t have a great percentage at the rim, but he has the physical tools to be real effective there if he concentrated on it.

In a closing offensive lineup with JT, JB, Kemba, and Fournier, there should be plenty of driving room. When TL is in, a steady dose of their pick/roll game should open up easy opportunities for everyone.

The Celtics need more possession by possession coaching. A Rick Carlisle would have this squad a lot more dangerous.
 

Cellar-Door

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I'm starting to think he's gone in the summer. I'm a big Marcus guy and generally thought that he has more value than anything you can get in return, BUT....

This team needs a reset, and Marcus is the guy who other teams want, and who helps match salary. Beyond that... we're bad at the very things he's supposed to bring. His individual D has slipped, and for all the "Smart is the heart of the team" stuff... this team's heart is not great. The level of competitiveness has been bad, and Marcus is included in that. Now is probably the time to move him unless something changes. He'll be attractive to teams still, and you can get value.
 

BigSoxFan

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I'm starting to think he's gone in the summer. I'm a big Marcus guy and generally thought that he has more value than anything you can get in return, BUT....

This team needs a reset, and Marcus is the guy who other teams want, and who helps match salary. Beyond that... we're bad at the very things he's supposed to bring. His individual D has slipped, and for all the "Smart is the heart of the team" stuff... this team's heart is not great. The level of competitiveness has been bad, and Marcus is included in that. Now is probably the time to move him unless something changes. He'll be attractive to teams still, and you can get value.
TT/Smart/pick for Brogdon would interest me...but probably not Indiana. Maybe Ainge makes another attempt at Grant. Not many options to work with based on what I see.
 

NomarsFool

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I feel like Marcus has hurt his value this season, though. I definitely think he contributes to ball movement - for sure. But, overall, I think he doesn't seem as valuable a player as he did last season - and I'd think other teams would see that as well.
 

Cellar-Door

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I feel like Marcus has hurt his value this season, though. I definitely think he contributes to ball movement - for sure. But, overall, I think he doesn't seem as valuable a player as he did last season - and I'd think other teams would see that as well.
I think it depends how things go, but I think plenty of teams will talk themselves into it being a mix of injury and a toxic team. ORL was pretty aggressive in wanting him, and Hawks supposedly really wanted him (good fit there).
 

BigSoxFan

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I feel like Marcus has hurt his value this season, though. I definitely think he contributes to ball movement - for sure. But, overall, I think he doesn't seem as valuable a player as he did last season - and I'd think other teams would see that as well.
They will and he's expiring, which is another problem. It's the same old problem with Marcus - the return we get won't be worth the value we're giving up. But he's the only remotely valuable piece we have outside of Time Lord so Ainge will certainly poke around here.
 

nighthob

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If they’re keeping Fournier and TimeLord then Walker is going to be outbound. That’s really close to too much roster churn, especially as it’s all in the backcourt. Especially given that this team’s biggest issue is the roster churn of the last three years.

On the other hand they look like they could well end up with Cade Cunningham on their own efforts again. Looking at Indiana’s schedule I’m having trouble seeing them get past .500. But I’m seeing the same issue with Boston. They could well lose the play-in game and be sitting in the 11/12 hole on lottery night.
 

lovegtm

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If they’re keeping Fournier and TimeLord then Walker is going to be outbound. That’s really close to too much roster churn, especially as it’s all in the backcourt. Especially given that this team’s biggest issue is the roster churn of the last three years.

On the other hand they look like they could well end up with Cade Cunningham on their own efforts again. Looking at Indiana’s schedule I’m having trouble seeing them get past .500. But I’m seeing the same issue with Boston. They could well lose the play-in game and be sitting in the 11/12 hole on lottery night.
How is roster churn an issue this year? The only meaningful player they lost was Hayward, and they were plenty able to win regular and postseason games without him last year, even if they needed him to be real contenders.
 

Cellar-Door

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If they’re keeping Fournier and TimeLord then Walker is going to be outbound. That’s really close to too much roster churn, especially as it’s all in the backcourt. Especially given that this team’s biggest issue is the roster churn of the last three years.

On the other hand they look like they could well end up with Cade Cunningham on their own efforts again. Looking at Indiana’s schedule I’m having trouble seeing them get past .500. But I’m seeing the same issue with Boston. They could well lose the play-in game and be sitting in the 11/12 hole on lottery night.
Yeah, I don't see roster churn as an issue at all. This season's team was last season's team minus Hayward (who they played plenty of time without) and with some additions. Roster churn hasn't been the issue at all. The issue has been almost across the board decreases in defensive play.

Edit- also I see no reason Fournier and TL should effect anyone else in and of themselves. I think there will be trades, but the whole point of ducking the tax this year was to allow going well over the cap through the end of Kemba's deal if needed. They anticipated adding at least 25-30M in salary in the offseason in their planning, I doubt those 2 combine for that much more than $30M, and if it really is tight they can get off of a deal or two (TT notably) pretty easily.
 

nighthob

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Yeah, I don't see roster churn as an issue at all. This season's team was last season's team minus Hayward (who they played plenty of time without) and with some additions. Roster churn hasn't been the issue at all. The issue has been almost across the board decreases in defensive play.
And, largely, Kemba. Moving Walker and Smart and putting in a whole new backcourt is going to result in chemistry issues. It’s inevitable.

Edit- also I see no reason Fournier and TL should effect anyone else in and of themselves.
If they’re spending $28-$32 million on Fournier and TimeLord, given Tatum’s max deal and Brown’s submax, the luxury tax payments are going to pile up quickly. I’m just cautioning that the ownership group probably sees moving Kemba as their highest priority (especially if Smart is willing to sign a two year extension).
 

mcpickl

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If they’re spending $28-$32 million on Fournier and TimeLord, given Tatum’s max deal and Brown’s submax, the luxury tax payments are going to pile up quickly. I’m just cautioning that the ownership group probably sees moving Kemba as their highest priority (especially if Smart is willing to sign a two year extension).
A Rob Williams extension wouldn't kick in until 2022-23.

I'm sure that the ownership group probably sees moving Kemba as their highest priority as well.

I just don't see any other teams in the league willing to bite on that contract without giving you a terrible one back as well.

Maybe if he was expiring, not with two years at massive money left.
 

lovegtm

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Does Smart look slimmer and way more competitive against quick guards lately?

That + Fournier changes this team's upside a lot.