Before bringing in Dad Prescott, I'd try to talk Brees out of retirement first. If you're going to have an old guy, may as well be one of the better ones.
Pats QB Options
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Daniel Jones is worse than Cam.
Edit- to be clear it's more that they are similar but Jones you have to trade for.
To me there is a big gap between 8 and 16. If I can get a top 8 QB, yes him every time. If I'm outside the top 10 I want the weapons and further down the mediocre ladder.
The last time the Bears had a good QB, Iran had only been called "Iran" for 14 years.
The reason i think its an issue is the same reason I thought it was an issue last year. If he is on the roster, BB will play him no matter what.
It really helped the 2018 Panthers to have CM go for almost 2000 yards from scrimmage and 13 TDs.
Edit - Christian McCaffrey
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It feels pointless to be talking about 2018 Cam Newton, since that guy no longer exists. I agree his 2018 was not much worse than Bridgewater. But then he missed an entire season, and what the Pats saw from him in 2020 was way worse than what Carolina got from Bridgewater. Bridgewater was just ok this past year, and that would be a huge improvement over Cam. Simply put, they cannot go forward with Cam Newton as their starting quarterback. That's a season killer.
I wonder what the price will end up being for Kirk Cousins. The Pats have cap space and Cousins is: a) likely available and b) better than most of the names being thrown around.
Is whatever they get with #15 going to end up being more valuable than solving their QB situation with a veteran who can produce?
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You're missing the point... which is that paying big money for a QB who isn't good just because you think he'll be marginally better than the not good QB you recently had is the worst thing you can do in the NFL. It's not that Bridgewater wasn't a decent bet to be better than Cam in 2020, it's that CAR spent a whole lot of money on QB hoping to be better than 2018, but instead they got similar or worse production to 2018 and now they're reportedly already looking for a new QB. They burned 2020-2021, tied up cap space and got poor QB production, because their entire thesis was dumb, you don't pay big money for low upside QBs just because it is better than what you have.
Cam Newton isn't good. But he's cheap, and if he's your QB it's bad, but it also means you can spend money on other positions. If you instead give 12-20M to a different bad QB, you have a worse roster, and a bad QB, even if it's the 25th best QB in the league instead of the 27th.
Cam Newton should not be the first choice for 2021 Patriots QB, BUT there are worse things than him coming back, so long as there is some idea on the longterm plan (draft?) The idea that a slight upgrade at the QB position is a definite good thing is a fallacy, and a dangerous one. I'd rather have Cam cheap for example than Foles at a lot of money (or FItz, or a number of other QBs who are bad and will make over $10M a year). Having a bad QB hurts you for that year, getting a bad QB on a bigger contract hurts you long term.
Edit- to be more clear.... the best way to build a good team and maybe win a Superbowl is to have a QB who is both good and cheap. The worst way to build a team that is good and could maybe win a Superbowl is to have a QB who is neither good nor cheap. Cam Newton is not good, but he may be cheap. If we can find a QB who is actually very good, we should get him, if we can't find a QB who is very good, we should find one that is very cheap.... Cam seems a good bet to fit that description. If Cam is the very cheap QB the coaches want, I'm fine with that.
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I think you're way too dismissive of the importance of supporting cast. Bridgewater was "just OK" this year, worse than average, throwing to Robby Anderson, D.J. Moore, and Curtis Samuel. What does he look like throwing to Harry, Byrd, and Meyers? Probably not a lot different than Cam. At the end of the day, the Panthers averaged 2.09 points per drive, not a drastic improvement over NE's 1.92.
Well, if auto-correct was going to change Dak, I'm glad it went Dad, and not Dark.
There is a big difference between “not good”, which implies average or below average, and where Cam is...not being able to play in the NFL as a quarterback...he’s that bad. Just ask Rodney.
Correct. People are talking about him like he is an average NFL quarterback. He should not be in the league at this point, and very soon he likely won't be.
But that's clearly not true Cam wasn't the worst producer of guys who got starts last year in the NFL, and some or arguably all of the guys he was above had better pass catchers. Cam was bad he wasn't the worst QB in the league by any means.
Edit- I get that people hated being a team for the first time in decades that has a bad QB, but that's the NFL. Cam Newton is a bad QB to be a starter in the NFL, but between 5 and 9 teams a season are getting that type of performance out of their QB position. The "Cam Newton isn't an NFL QB" stuff is fundamentally nonsense. There are 2-3 QBs on every roster, and not even close to all of them are better than Cam, in fact probably less than half of them are.
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You're missing about 2 seconds and 2 players who are good from even getting into the conversation
This is spot on. If given the choice, for example, to go into next year with Cam at a virtually league-minimum salary or Goff at his current salary (or any other number of mediocre to bad QBs, arguably including Jimmy G), Cam is 100% the correct decision.
That said, if they want to go this route my hope would be they take a flyer on a QB in the mid-to-late rounds of the draft and just throw him out there - because at least that carries the potential (however small it might be) that the guy turns into a star, whereas with Cam you aren't harming yourself long-term, but there's also no real chance he becomes their next franchise QB.
Which is why trading for Watson is a terrible idea, the team needs those picks, and players, and cap space to rebuild the roster which has a litany of holes in it.
If the patriots don’t move up for a QB this season then they basically need to find the Kansas City chiefs version of Alex Smith and just keep drafting extremely well to stock pile the roster with talent and then down the road move up for the QB if you have a ready made roster that is just missing a QB similar to how KC did it.
I’m all for resigning Cam.
As long as NE drafts a QB and plans on letting him sit and learn for a year while Cam leads us to a top 12 pick in 2022.
Those two moves are not mutually exclusive of each other. In fact, they make a ton of sense together.
As long as NE drafts a QB and plans on letting him sit and learn for a year while Cam leads us to a top 12 pick in 2022.
Those two moves are not mutually exclusive of each other. In fact, they make a ton of sense together.
How does this square with the talk that the Pats are going to be very aggressive in the FA market this offseason?
We went 7-9 with Cam, well below average WR/TE units, and a subpar front 7 on D. If we add talent in many places, and roll Cam out to start again, it’s doubtful we’re going to be *worse* than 7-9/15th pick.
Fair counterpoint.
I guess I’ll believe the FA spending spree when I see it. Why do it if you’re going to scrape and claw just to get into the playoffs? Add in the fact that NE is within 1 1/2 years of a generation shift (High, DMC, Chung, Gilly...) on the defense and I can’t see the thinking behind the FA rumor.
Yeah, just imagine what a mess the Pats would be right now if this team had Watson instead of Kyle Dugger, Josh Uche, N'Keal Harry, Joejuan Williams, Isaiah Wynn and Sony Michel (their last 3 first and second round picks).
I'd trade 3 firsts and 3 second rounders for a 25 yo top 5 QB every day of the week.
I am probably out of the loop here, but why would Cam take the league-minimum salary? Didn't he just sign with New England so he could start and show other teams (and NE) that he was healthy? I am not saying Cam is going to get $20M per year, but after the first two weeks, there was some talk about extending him and what a steal the Patriots got. I guess I am curious what Cam wants (e.g., money, ability to start, better weapons, etc.). Cam on the same deal as last year wouldn't be the worst path forward (still not a good path, but not the worst), but paying Cam like $10 to $15M per year would seem less than ideal.
Unfortunately the 25 year old QB probably won't agree to be dealt to team this full of holes. So it's almost certainly a moot point.
Buffalo and Miami will be better. Even the Jets might no longer be an automatic two wins. Put another way there's a non-zero chance that their division record is 1-5 next year, and the rest of it not end up being any easier factoring in the loss of Thuney, the need to rebuild the front 7, and finding offensive weapons. New England will try hard, but it could legitimately be a 4-6 win team anyway.
Those Washington Football Teams of the 1970’s into the early 1990’s were pretty good and I think they drafted three players in the first round between 1970 and 1990. Different non salary-cap time I know but there are various ways to roster-build.
20/20 hindsight hot take aside Dugger, Uche, and Wynn are keepers, Michel looks good when he's healthy which is admittedly not often enough. The draft is a crapshoot, they need as many picks as possible to try and rebuild the roster. They need as much cap space to sign veterans in FA as possible for this exact same purpose. Watson won't solve the teams issues which are a lack of playmakers at WR and TE, a lack of talent on the DL, and an aging secondary. Dedicating resources to acquiring him will only make the situation worse.
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I'd rather watch Stid struggle (and suck) more than Cam. Another season of Cam will be a season I can tune out of.
Let's be honest: neither of these are truly competitive offenses. They're better than what the Pats were rolling out there in 2020, certainly, but they're not keeping up with the Chiefs or Bills or Bucs in a shootout.
Which is why I expect the offensive additions to be fairly modest, and a lot of the offseason spent shoring up a D that was bad in spots and old in others. They need offensive improvements, to be sure, but this team is a lot closer to being able to win low-scoring rockfights than shootouts.
We're going to have losses, too, though. Thuney is a FA; he was the best player on offense. Andrews, too. Gilmore might get traded. DMac is old. The whole DL basically is hitting free agency. Special teams has a bunch of key free agents, and it was a huge part of winning as many games as they did. They're going to have to spend quite a bit just to tread water in some of the areas we are taking for granted.
This might be a weird year, though. Every team has a version of the bolded - guys who are good and want to get paid, or are getting old and need to be replaced. What no team has? Enough money. With a $180m cap, teams are going to have to make tradeoffs. The Pats certainly don't have ideal roster construction, but they do have more money than many other teams.
Also, re Cam - please, no. A Cam-led offense is pretty well unwatchable. I would take Tyrod Taylor over Cam without a second's hesitation. I'd probably hesitate for a bit, but I'd rather have Brissett, even. There's no proof that either of these guys can win the in NFL, but there's a season's worth of proof that Cam in NE=losses plus discouragingly uninspired offense. As the old saying goes, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting a different result.
If they were all likely to cost the same I completely agree. But certainly Taylor, and very likely Brissett, are going to be materially more expensive and probably want multi-year deals. And as Cellar-Door has pointed out, every dollar the Pats spend “upgrading” from Cam to some other mediocre QB is a dollar they can’t spend to address the numerous other weaknesses on the team.
But I also agree that it doesn’t have to be Cam specifically - Stidham or a rookie from this year’s draft, or some other close-to-league-min vet, would fill the same role.
Minshew's cheap salary is going to make him more expensive in picks than we probably want to pay for his level of production. He's an option for a team with big cap issues, but staying an affordable backup right where he is seems just as likely.
Also, Minshew?
Also, Minshew?
Man BBTL might be real empty with all the people allegedly skipping the season if Cam is back.
It won't really be of course they are all full of shit. Does really highlight how the spoiled and soft the Brady/Belichick Era made the fanbase though that 1 year of living like the rest of the league has people threatening to quit, not even a particularly Bad year by rest of the league standards.
It won't really be of course they are all full of shit. Does really highlight how the spoiled and soft the Brady/Belichick Era made the fanbase though that 1 year of living like the rest of the league has people threatening to quit, not even a particularly Bad year by rest of the league standards.
I think Carson Wentz is not a bad option for this team if a 1st round pick is not involved. His contract is not bad as they would only have 2 guaranteed years on it. They could try to stay competitive while also getting a QB through the draft. if he works out, great then the contract is fine for the next 2 years afterwards. If not, cut him after 2022.
Former #2 pick, athletic enough to run the RPO and present a running threat, spent his career stuck in a bad system so far...ripe for an OC who thinks he can fix a QB and will probably take a short, make good deal built around incentives.
Definitely enjoying this thread, with not much to offer otherwise, but on this point, having a better receiving corps will not eliminate the mental mistakes Cam made this year. Or even his own physical mistakes. I mean, that fumble against the Bills. Aaaaaarrrrrrgggghhh.
View: https://youtu.be/jpq_mmhYvfw
Yes and no.
Better WRs and TEs make bad QBs better because they get separation and create explosive plays, that reduces the number of decisions and tough throws a QB has to make and so reduces the mistakes.
Having better skill position players doesn't change who your QB is but does usually improve the results you get.
Indy or Chicago are my 2 best bets. Chicago has John DeFillipo who was Carson's QB coach in Philly in 2017.
Unless Indy or Chicago were the team Bedard says hung up on the Eagles when they were asking for 2 1st round picks for Wentz. They'd be getting a lot of dial tones if that is their price.
View: https://twitter.com/GregABedard/status/1358151026285641733
This would be one of my concerns with Wentz
Lowest % of accurate passes thrown from a clean pocket over the past three seasons (2018-20), per @PFF's ball location charting:
30. Mitch Trubisky (59%)
31. Jameis Winston (59%)
32. Lamar Jackson (58%)
33. Cam Newton (58%)
34. Carson Wentz (57%)
View: https://twitter.com/PFF_AustinGayle/status/1358150215207944195?s=19
Lowest % of accurate passes thrown from a clean pocket over the past three seasons (2018-20), per @PFF's ball location charting:
30. Mitch Trubisky (59%)
31. Jameis Winston (59%)
32. Lamar Jackson (58%)
33. Cam Newton (58%)
34. Carson Wentz (57%)
View: https://twitter.com/PFF_AustinGayle/status/1358150215207944195?s=19
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