Kobe should probably have retired after that '05 season when his team went 34-48 and didn't even make the playoffs!
2020-2021 NBA Game Thread
- Thread starter Kliq
- Start date
We are piling on HRB but there are players that meet his criteria. Those players never won anything anywhere though. Already mentioned Cousins but Tracy McGrady is another one.
It's not 1 or 2 seasons of suck, it's a lot of seasons of suck.
It's not 1 or 2 seasons of suck, it's a lot of seasons of suck.
In addition to the comments above, that may be more true (still not always true) when a team is building around the superstar but in this day and age, when a substantial portion of a team's salary cap is on IR, I wouldn't think it was that uncommon for a superstar's team to go under .500.
Why is .500 a line of demarcation for judging whether a player is a superstar? Why not 52% or 48% or 07% or 99%? NBA GMs should be aware of their peers who hold this view. It would make for some very interesting trades where really good players (but not superstars) who are on losing teams are traded for a pittance.
Not to diminish the greatness of Trae, who has been absolutely phenomenal so far this year, but “points per shot” always strikes me as somewhat misleading way to look at scoring, given that free throw attempts are also “shots” — just highly efficient ones — that also use up possessions (.44 of a possession per fta, on average, depending on how many and-ones and/or 3 pt fouls were involved). In the case of Trae, who’s putting up an insane **17.6 fta per 36 minutes** (that’s Harden blushing), ignoring the trips to the stripe seems needlessly myopic. His true shooting % is currently .737, which is insane enough to begin without having to gloss over the fact that free throw attempts are half-possessions.
That said, I have no doubt that if he kept up this rate or anywhere close he would crush the all-time record for “points per fga” among high-volume scorers. Question for Conigliaro’s Potential: is anyone worried long-term about Trae’s slight frame holding up to all that mauling? He’s only 22, so probably not a huge concern now, but I wonder at what point he dials down the foul-drawing just a bit to protect his body.
Yeah, I don't think PPFG means much at all, I'm just curious what the record is.
The attention hasn't quite turned on him yet because the Hawks haven't played any high-stakes games, but NOBODY, not Harden, not Durant, not LeBron, draws more little BS fouls than Trae Young. He stops in the middle of the lane and gets bumped slightly in the back, he floats away from contact, gets barely touched, and gets the whistle, etc. He has just an incredible sense of where to seek out contact and lure players into juuuuuust making enough contact to draw a foul. This isn't like Iverson exploding to the basket and getting knocked out of the air by some 275lb behemoth. It might be a concern long-term that he is small and going into the paint so much, but he isn't really taking any more punishment than the average player. Just wait until the Hawks make the playoffs; people will be up in arms about the calls Trae gets.
My boyz! They make watching the Thunder a joy. Of course, the second unit is sad (Poku is a project), but OKC is a frisky team.
Ha, thanks for the info; I was gonna ask what kind of fouls he was actually drawing. It’ll be interesting to see if/when (a) refs start to catch on; and/or (b) defenders say, “eff this, if I’m gonna get whistled anyway, I’m gonna get my money’s worth!!” and start laying some real lumber.
Fair. I just think it’s funny that someone like Shaq would get an (infinitely) higher “PPFG” for getting fouled and bricking one of the two FTs than he would for just throwing it down.
I know you’re the Thunder fan and all but I’ve already called binky dibs on Bazley. I will graciously offer you Dort though.
I love him too, I was really hoping that Boston would draft him last year rather than another point guard that needs to stand on his tippy toes in order to tie his shoes.
Dort plays hard. I watched the Lakers/Blazers game last night. Kyle Kuzma has to be one of the most worthless players in the NBA, right? Holy smokes that guy is terrible.
If he didn't play for the Lakers, he'd be as highly thought of as Taurean Prince.
Stay on course here as others are piling on down this road I never choose. I posed the question if Curry was the star of an 18-win team this year......not simply failing to make the playoffs. Two completely different scenarios.
More shots than points to start the season:
Donovan Mitchell (62-61)
Andrew Wiggins (49-44)
Devonte' Graham (44-37)
Russell Westbrook (41-36)
Kelly Oubre (40-17)
LaMarcus Aldridge (38-36)
Marvin Bagley (38-37)
Eric Bledsoe (33-30)
Jae Crowder (25-23)
Killian Hayes (25-20)
Donovan Mitchell (62-61)
Andrew Wiggins (49-44)
Devonte' Graham (44-37)
Russell Westbrook (41-36)
Kelly Oubre (40-17)
LaMarcus Aldridge (38-36)
Marvin Bagley (38-37)
Eric Bledsoe (33-30)
Jae Crowder (25-23)
Killian Hayes (25-20)
NBA Season Statistics:
Games played (for most teams): 3
Games remaining (for most teams): 69
Percentage of season remaining: 95.8% (or 94.4%)
My point is that the statistical outcomes occurring now may well be noise when this is all said and done. Sure, you can say after three games that Golden State looks terrible and the data bears out why.
Are you willing to bet that teams like Washington, Cleveland (I know about Sexland and I like their squad overall - no shade here), Sacramento and Charlotte will all be more highly ranked offensively than, say the Bucks, Raptors, the 76ers, Nets, Clippers, Pelicans and Celtics after the season? How about at the break? What about at the quarter pole? By the way, I am not saying that the current rankings won't hold - just that given what we know, they are unlikely to remain the same with the fullness of time.
In short, trying to discern anything from three or five or even ten games seems silly. That said, assuming a small sample size distribution will hold as more outcomes are realized isn't a problem strictly associated with sporting events as we have seen of late.
Games played (for most teams): 3
Games remaining (for most teams): 69
Percentage of season remaining: 95.8% (or 94.4%)
My point is that the statistical outcomes occurring now may well be noise when this is all said and done. Sure, you can say after three games that Golden State looks terrible and the data bears out why.
Are you willing to bet that teams like Washington, Cleveland (I know about Sexland and I like their squad overall - no shade here), Sacramento and Charlotte will all be more highly ranked offensively than, say the Bucks, Raptors, the 76ers, Nets, Clippers, Pelicans and Celtics after the season? How about at the break? What about at the quarter pole? By the way, I am not saying that the current rankings won't hold - just that given what we know, they are unlikely to remain the same with the fullness of time.
In short, trying to discern anything from three or five or even ten games seems silly. That said, assuming a small sample size distribution will hold as more outcomes are realized isn't a problem strictly associated with sporting events as we have seen of late.
I haven’t heard it neither confirmed or denied but the 0-31 on non-dunks would make for one fabulous compilation.
According to Basketball-Reference, Oubre has 7 made FGs this year and 6 dunks; so he has one non-dunk. Not sure what officially counts as a dunk, his one made FG might be one of those Blake Griffin "throw the ball through the net" plays.
He’s taken 40 shots overall and 17 have been 3’s (0-17 lol). So, he’s 7-23 from 2 and 6 are dunks, which would mean 1-17 on non-dunks, if my math is right.
Its funny because the only time people get so caught up in 3 game streaks is at the beginning of the season purely out of convenience of looking these things up. No one cares midseason what crazy achievements guys have put up in their past 3 games (ok, sometimes if its like 3 straight 50 point games or something).
I have also wondered whether the emergence of so many incredible offensive players we have now - Doncic, Young, Curry, Harden, Giannis - how much is skill and how much is this insane trend to 3's and space? What would the league look like if they moved the 3 pt line back 2 feet? Or eliminated the corner threes?
I have also wondered whether the emergence of so many incredible offensive players we have now - Doncic, Young, Curry, Harden, Giannis - how much is skill and how much is this insane trend to 3's and space? What would the league look like if they moved the 3 pt line back 2 feet? Or eliminated the corner threes?
Kliq has bingo, I think: no Hawks fans I'm aware of have ever complained that Trae is getting hammered on his trips to the paint and is risking long-term physical wear and tear (the Grayson Allens of the world notwithstanding). He's being very careful about how he initiates contact, and frankly, he seems to be getting calls that only true superstars generally get on a regular basis. I hate superstar refball as much as anyone, even when it benefits my team, but as long as that's the way NBA referees are going to call games, it's nice to benefit from some of those calls for once.
It's a skill for sure. I think part of thing with Ice Trae is his elite floater game; defenders are well aware that when he gets into the paint that is probably how he is going to shoot the ball; and due to the physical nature of the floater; defenders are scrambling to get a hand up and leaving their feet, allowing Young to artfully bounce off of them for foul calls. He isn't going right into the body of defenders and he isn't just getting hacked (because he is such a good FT shooter) so he isn't taking as much of a beating as the FTA numbers would indicate.
Part of it is coachcentric, e.g. when Pitino took over the Knicks he encouraged his guys to shoot treys, even though it was still (in NBA/cultural terms) a relatively new shot that most guys didn't have in their arsenal. Part of it is just what kids saw when watching the NBA when they came of age. Kids that came of age in the 80s saw Bird draining treys and started adding the shot to their arsenal. Kids that came of age in the 90s/early aughts grew up watching Reggie Miller and Ray Allen torch opponents with treys and worked even harder at the shot because it was now a near necessity (even as coaches like Jim O'Brien and Mike D'Antoni were prioritizing the shot in their offenses). The kids of the late aughts early teens saw guys like LeBron, Pierce, et al shooting them at greater volume than ever and then worked even harder at the shot. And so as coaches have preached the Trey or Drive the Rim offensive philosophy we see a generation of NBA players entering the game with absurd range on their shots.
Some players are just not talented, or put another way, some physical gifts are less visible than others.
I suspect HRB meant his post to be an exaggerated hot take but, that said, I agree with you that Curry is a superstar until proven otherwise. That said, your analogy to LeBron is a bit ironic given that -- if memory serves (and perhaps it doesn't, I'm not so hot on details of posts/posters) -- you've spent years here talking about how LeBron is fading citing things like his +/- etc.
I am in violent agreement with all of this — my son and I went to Celts-Hawks last year and the whole crowd grew increasingly enraged with Trae. He goes contact hunting, and every time he‘s touched, he’s been shot by a sniper. Head snaps back, checks for the exit wound, seeks medical help from the refs. Smart nearly started a brawl he was so pissed off.
Trae may be an exceptional offensive players, but I can’t stand the kid.
Milwaukee is up 83-51 in Miami at the half. 83 in Miami... at the half.
edit: no Butler but still.
edit: no Butler but still.
Also: short offseason, ongoing COVID pandemic, etc.
There's always weird variance at the beginning of the season, and the early part of this season is weirder than most.
I don’t think ones frame has much, if any, of an affect short term. The issues are of the wear and tear variety once they hit the magic 30 number from having to put forth so much physical effort over the years.
In other news, maybe Andrew Wiggins is the superstar after bailing out Steph in the 4Q tonight in Detroit. /baiting
Exactly. You nail it - most early season games are noisy but this year in particular it feels like waiting a month to really evaluate teams is the way to go. Six hours ago, Steph Curry was considered a has been and Andrew Wiggins was a flawed player who occasionally gets buckets. Oh wait. He still is...
LaMelo had a half.
15 points on 4/6 shooting, 3/5 from 3, 6 rebounds, 4 assists, 1 steal, 1 block in 16 minutes.
15 points on 4/6 shooting, 3/5 from 3, 6 rebounds, 4 assists, 1 steal, 1 block in 16 minutes.
To be fair, Gordon's Captain of his Charlotte-based Fortnite team, which is 16-2 now.
AND they'd be undefeated if Mitchell Kupstein didn't have to attend his bar mitzvah
#moreshots4JayCrew
https://www.hyperxgaming.com/unitedstates/us/experience/gordon-hayward
He did get up 16 shots.
CHA had 42 bench points in the first half and went up by 30+ in the second half. For anyone who watches their games, does DAL have issues or is 1-3 just a SSS blip?
edit: I had mentioned elsewhere that before last night BOS was allowing opponents to shoot over 80% at the rim. DAL was even worse than that allowing 85% at the rim.
"That's not basketball"...
View: https://twitter.com/TalkinNets/status/1344497844540076032
Tbh, I don't find that one play in isolation nearly as egregious as Nash (and the Nets announcers) seem to, but I see now what Kliq means by "little BS fouls." His body should probably be able to handle up to that level of (wait for it) TLC.
View: https://twitter.com/TalkinNets/status/1344497844540076032
Tbh, I don't find that one play in isolation nearly as egregious as Nash (and the Nets announcers) seem to, but I see now what Kliq means by "little BS fouls." His body should probably be able to handle up to that level of (wait for it) TLC.
Kyrie looked good last night when his shots were falling. Unfortunately he took 27 and only made 10. The reality is that those nights are painful to watch if he is playing for your team and he really does need another star to cover for him because when the ball isn't going in the hoop, the guy tends to be a negative on the court in a basketball value sense.
in fairness, Trae is incorporating all of Steph's moves, that's right out of Curry's playbook
I guess. I feel like it's more of CP3 or DLo move than a Steph move, tbh — the way they get into the lane, get their defender on their back, and then weirdly chill out in that situation for several seconds (obviously CP3 tends to figure how to end the play better than DLo does). In general, Trae seems much closer to Harden than to Steph in the way he actively hunts and gets whistles.
FTA per 36, career / peak / season to date...
Steph 4.3 / 6.7 / 7.1
Harden 9.5 / 11.6 / 12.0
Trae 7.8 / 9.5 / 17.7 (????)
I've been saying for a while that Trae is more of a mini-Harden than Steph, despite the easy comparison you can make between Trae and Curry. One thing I'm curious about is over the course of this season, how does Trae's game change with more offensive talent around him? Part of the reason I think he has so many FTA during his career is because he is playing with limited offensive talent and always had the ball in his hands. This made him more Harden than Steph, because Steph has that killer off-ball game that he has been able to develop playing with other creators (not just Durant, Klay and Draymond either, people like Iggy and Bogut are also creative playmakers that surely helped Steph become so lethal off-ball). I wonder if playing with Bogdanovic and Gallinari, two guys who can create their own shot and pass the ball, will change Trae's usage, and he will be more of an off-ball threat and less of a Harden-type, dominating the ball.