I might do it if I were Houston, but really only if I could talk OKC into parting with some draft capital for Embiid, because I agree with you where he's concerned.
NBA 20/21 season thread
- Thread starter DJnVa
- Start date
The more time goes on the more I think PHI isn't interested in swapping Simmons for Harden and that's reasonable, even if the Simmons Embiid thing isn't working, you have a lot of options to trade one of them and make your team better on a longer term than a Harden deal, and with less baggage.
I think it'll end up being a 3 team trade with Brooklyn getting Harden, HOU getting LeVert, Allen, Shamet picks, and a 3rd team kicking in something to HOU for Dinwiddie
I think it'll end up being a 3 team trade with Brooklyn getting Harden, HOU getting LeVert, Allen, Shamet picks, and a 3rd team kicking in something to HOU for Dinwiddie
I liked that deal before the Klay injury, partly because the Beard and Klay would be such ideal hoops complements (and likely fast friends, too, as fellow laid back LA kids). There was also that intriguing leaked vid from the all-star break in which Curry reported Harden confiding in him he didn’t like hero ball and wanted to play a better brand of hoops. If the Big 3 and Kerr were on board (which I assume would be a prerequisite to a deal that consequential) I was all in.
With Klay done for the year — and iffy thereafter, sigh — I like it less, mostly cos it would remind me of how much better it would be with Klay. A 1-4 of Steph-Harden-Oubre-Green feels a bit short of an NBA champion (though still damned intriguing) whereas Steph-Harden-Klay-Green (6th man Oubre) feels perfect.
Another issue for me is that while you guys have been politely discussing Nesmith and Pritchard amongst yourselves, I’ve been massively drinking the Kool-Aid on Wiseman, including this vid of him swishing 30 foot threes in succession and this one of his trainer raving about his peerless work ethic and saying he would be a better player than David Robinson or Anthony Davis.
While I understand logically that “better than Robinson and Davis” is not particularly likely, there’s a mystery and joy in watching a young blue chipper try to get there that’s distinct from simply cold-hearted “maximizing immediate-term title chances,” which is what that Harden deal represents. Wiseman is no longer just an intriguing prospect to me, post-draft; he’s a Warrior, and the most exciting rook we’ve had since Curry, or really since Webber.
Meanwhile, the Kansas “Slash Brothers” Wiggins and Oubre both look ripped and fantastic in practice. Both have had erratic starts to their NBA careers, but are both coming off career seasons and are both long, athletic freaks coming into their age 25 seasons, an age when players sometimes do put things together (Steph, Klay and Draymond all turned it up a notch right around 24-25, e.g.) I want to see that tandem crush it, if nothing else so I can come here and say, “how do you like our ‘Trash Brothers’ now???”
Aaand ... I think Jordan Poole is gonna take a leap this season, too. Plus that Minny pick — a likely top 8-10 in an absolutely stacked 2021 draft — looks really tasty. And as you note, our picks post Steph prime start to have real value, particularly if you’re taking away Wiseman and our Minny 2021.
On a side note: Chris Mullin’s playful offseason edict that that the Warriors “get more lefty” need not require the Beard, as it has already already been satisfied four times over with Wiseman, Oubre, Bazemore, and draft-and-stash sharpshooter Justinian Jessup. Yankee Stadium, watch out.
TLDR: I wouldn’t hate it if that Harden deal were struck, but on balance would rather just stand pat, see what the Curry-Oubre-Wiggins-Green-Wiseman team looks like, and bide my time.
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Guy I feel bad for in all this is Silas. Lifetime assistant, well regarded, finally gets his shot, and it's with a team with an owner everyone agrees is a disaster, and a star player who is just ghosting training camp to fly around the country hitting every strip club and night club he can.
Silas was super beloved by players and staff in his Warriors tenure; I always loved his interviews. And his youth makes him pretty ideal for a 3-4-5 year rebuild. Here’s hoping Fertitta cuts him plenty of slack, or — even better — sells the team during his tenure to a more competent and deeper-pocketed owner.
I was going to casually root for the Dubs this year but you guys cut BC alum Ky Bowman and now I'm angry. Go ClippersI liked that deal before the Klay injury, partly because the Beard and Klay would be such ideal hoops complements (and likely fast friends, too, as fellow laid back LA kids). There was also that intriguing leaked vid from the all-star break in which Curry reported Harden confiding in him he didn’t like hero ball and wanted to play a better brand of hoops. If the Big 3 and Kerr were on board (which I assume would be a prerequisite to a deal that consequential) I was all in.
With Klay done for the year — and iffy thereafter, sigh — I like it less, mostly cos it would remind me of how much better it would be with Klay. A 1-4 of Steph-Harden-Oubre-Green feels a bit short of an NBA champion (though still damned intriguing) whereas Steph-Harden-Klay-Green (6th man Oubre) feels perfect.
Another issue for me is that while you guys have been politely discussing Nesmith and Pritchard amongst yourselves, I’ve been massively drinking the Kool-Aid on Wiseman, including this vid of him swishing 30 foot threes in succession and this one of his trainer raving about his peerless work ethic and saying he would be a better player than David Robinson or Anthony Davis.
While I understand logically that “better than Robinson and Davis” is not particularly likely, there’s a mystery and joy in watching a young blue chipper try to get there that’s distinct from simply cold-hearted “maximizing immediate-term title chances,” which is what that Harden deal represents. Wiseman is no longer just an intriguing prospect to me, post-draft; he’s a Warrior, and the most exciting rook we’ve had since Curry, or really since Webber.
Meanwhile, the Kansas “Slash Brothers” Wiggins and Oubre both look ripped and fantastic in practice. Both have had erratic starts to their NBA careers, but are both coming off career seasons and are both long, athletic freaks coming into their age 25 seasons, an age when players sometimes do put things together (Steph, Klay and Draymond all turned it up a notch right around 24-25, e.g.) I want to see that tandem crush it, if nothing else so I can come here and say, “how do you like our ‘Trash Brothers’ now???”
Aaand ... I think Jordan Poole is gonna take a leap this season, too. Plus that Minny pick — a likely top 8-10 in an absolutely stacked 2021 draft — looks really tasty. And as you note, our picks post Steph prime start to have real value, particularly if you’re taking away Wiseman and our Minny 2021.
On a side note: Chris Mullin’s playful offseason edict that that the Warriors “get more lefty” need not require the Beard, as it has already already been satisfied four times over with Wiseman, Oubre, Bazemore, and draft-and-stash sharpshooter Justinian Jessup. Yankee Stadium, watch out.
TLDR: I wouldn’t hate it if that Harden deal were struck, but on balance would rather just stand pat, see what the Curry-Oubre-Wiggins-Green-Wiseman team looks like, and bide my time.
Yeah, I was bummed out about that, too — I have no particular affection for BC (post Flutie/Bagley/Adams, anyway) but loved his energy, athleticism, toughness, and infectious joy. Got the sense Kerr and co. did, too ... I think it just came down to a numbers crunch with the signing of Wanamaker (whom they likely trusted more than Bowman to run a playoff-contending offense for 10-20 minutes a game), the drafting/signing of Mannion to a two-way (possibly some Arizona nepotism on Kerr’s part, but I have hopes for Nico), and the desire to develop Poole as a primary ballhandler.I was going to casually root for the Dubs this year but you guys cut BC alum Ky Bowman and now I'm angry. Go Clippers
Weirdly, in “2001,” it was Poole who got cut loose early on and Bowman who blew up into a giant star.
Anyway, all the best in LA, Ky.
In other Warriors news, Based on process of elimination in camp, it looks as though the two guys who tested positive for Covid are probably Draymond and Wiseman. Hoping their cases are as mild/asymptomatic as humanly possible. [praying hands]
SRN you missed the optimistic spin—Wiseman was draining 30 foot threes WITH COVID!!! Imagine what he’ll do when healthy
View: https://mobile.twitter.com/bball_ref/status/1336067218287812608
Basketball Reference
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Late yesterday evening, we convened the secret council that determines which nicknames are eligible to appear on player pages. The council approved this addition to the website
Basketball Reference
@bball_ref
Late yesterday evening, we convened the secret council that determines which nicknames are eligible to appear on player pages. The council approved this addition to the website
This is pretty cool.
https://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/miami-heat/fl-sp-miami-heat-bam-adebayo-20201207-c32fwzqkevf37nsny2mri4m2l4-story.html
Featured prominently at the house’s entrance is a picture of the single-wide trailer that had drawn mother and son so close out of necessity.
“I wanted it by the front of the door,” the gregarious 23-year-old said. “I wanted everybody to see where we actually came from. That doesn’t matter who walks in. You’re always going to see the picture. So my whole goal putting it there was just so everybody could see where we actually come from and how I was raised and what I went through, the struggle.”
https://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/miami-heat/fl-sp-miami-heat-bam-adebayo-20201207-c32fwzqkevf37nsny2mri4m2l4-story.html
Featured prominently at the house’s entrance is a picture of the single-wide trailer that had drawn mother and son so close out of necessity.
“I wanted it by the front of the door,” the gregarious 23-year-old said. “I wanted everybody to see where we actually came from. That doesn’t matter who walks in. You’re always going to see the picture. So my whole goal putting it there was just so everybody could see where we actually come from and how I was raised and what I went through, the struggle.”
LeBron claps back at World B. Flat’s comment that he finally has a teammate that he can trust with a last second crunch time shot.
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/30474789/lebron-james-says-kyrie-irving-comments-implying-lack-faith-late-game-abilities-hurt-little-bit
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/30474789/lebron-james-says-kyrie-irving-comments-implying-lack-faith-late-game-abilities-hurt-little-bit
I'm generally a sucker for these feel good stories - but guy who signs max contract and buys a house for his mother doesn't really do it for me.
How about Atlanta as a trade partner for Houston in a Harden deal? Primary assets would be Trae Young, John Collins, some picks, maybe some additional young players (e.g. Cam Reddish) and salary ballast (Snell's expiring would be useful). Atlanta gets to fast forward to what they hope Trae develops into, which is basically Harden, and they give up a player they might not even want to pay after this year in Collins. Houston gets a fun young duo and can either re-sign Collins or do a sign-and-trade next year with him for assets and/or a TPE, plus picks to stock their war chest. Atlanta seems like a city with a fun nightlife that Harden might actually get excited about going to, and the Hawks' off-season acquisitions make it so that they can sell Harden on being a playoff team today, but not so good that Houston devalues their picks. Atlanta also makes the best of the Trae-over-Luka debacle by closing the door on that comparison; now they got Harden instead of Luka, which seems more reasonable. Atlanta might be too attached to their current plan of building around Trae to make that move, but I think it could work for both teams.
In all seriousness, there is something there but given the Hawks job is Schlenk's first and he is still fairly new, it seems like too risky a move. This is the sort of transaction someone like Buford or Myers or Ujiri or Ainge or Morey could make and still weather the storm, especially if it didn't work. Travis Schlenk just doesn't have the CV to play at this table yet imo.
Well Tobias Harris ain’t gettin’ it done. No matter how many picks in the 25-30 range you’re including. An interesting, and possibly hilarious, angle is Brooklyn. Houston really has two contracts they’d like to dump, and the Nets are one of the few franchises with the necessary contracts to make it work. A third team would need to be involved since I doubt that they’d have any interest in World B Flat.
Anyway, Harden and Wall make around $82.5 million, meaning that Brooklyn needs to send out $66 million or so to make it work. World B Flat gets you half way there. After that you’re talking LaVert, Dinwiddie, Jarrett Allen and a minimum salary and you have the necessary salary ballast. If Houston could exile Irving to Madison Square Garden for Randall, a minimum salary and some Knicks #1s, so much the better for the basketball world.
Anyway, Harden and Wall make around $82.5 million, meaning that Brooklyn needs to send out $66 million or so to make it work. World B Flat gets you half way there. After that you’re talking LaVert, Dinwiddie, Jarrett Allen and a minimum salary and you have the necessary salary ballast. If Houston could exile Irving to Madison Square Garden for Randall, a minimum salary and some Knicks #1s, so much the better for the basketball world.
I would think Atlanta's starting point is "anyone but Trae Young." If you are them, it's crazy to trade Young for Harden imo, given timeline, cost, and age of Harden.
If you can have both of them, putting aside lots of defense and fit uncertainties, it's an interesting thought experiment to accelearate where they are
If you can have both of them, putting aside lots of defense and fit uncertainties, it's an interesting thought experiment to accelearate where they are
yep, anyone but Trae Young.
This works: Collins + Reddish + Hunter + 2021 first + '22 Pick swap + 2023 First + Snell/Capela
Hawks end up: Trae, Harden, Gallinari, Bog, Rondo, Huerter, Okongwu, Dunn, Fernando
Not sure Houston should actually want Collins, since he is about to get expensive and they would be going deep into a rebuild (not to say that Tillman will not push for him - you can sell his stats to fans). I would demand Okongwu, Reddish and Hunter along with those picks and use Snell, Fernando and Goodwin as the filler. I might also push for the picks to be further out.
Jamal Murray and Gary Harris or Will Barton for James Harden.
Can't really compete with a Young + Collins offer but not much could. I doubt Young is on the move. It would really depend on Collins vs Murray as I'm sure Denver could tweak their deal a little. They do have Porter.
Can't really compete with a Young + Collins offer but not much could. I doubt Young is on the move. It would really depend on Collins vs Murray as I'm sure Denver could tweak their deal a little. They do have Porter.
I am a big Harden fan, but some of these offers people are speculating about seem way off to me. Harden has just run Westbrook and Paul out of town. He is pouting his way to a trade by refusing to show up. If (when) he gets traded it is going to be for a lot less than some of these hypotheticals. I doubt that anyone as good as Trae Young or Ben Simmons is in the deal. To me, it seems like a clear salary + a bunch of picks type of deal
Probably. The flip side is he's a top 5 or so player in the league with multiple years on his contract, if it's salary and picks that deal will be there in a year. HOU probably won't get Simmons, or a similar top young player, but if they don't there isn;t much value to making a trade now.
Tim MacMahon was on Zach Lowe's podcast on Monday discussing Houston options and potential trades, they seemed to think that Houston's current position is that calling Harden's bluff and keeping him until at least the deadline was preferable to taking a package that didn't include a young star plus future picks. (They also went through which young stars would definitely be unavailable, including Tatum, Mitchell, Murray, etc. I don't think I heard Young's name there but I'm not sure). Lowe seems of a mind that a Simmons package makes the most sense, though he thought Philly may still be hesitant to make that move until they try their new look lineup and see how they play early this year.
I can't see ATL trading Trae for Harden, but, they should strongly consider it. Trae's ceiling is Harden but worse on defense right?
Yeah, but how much longer does Harden have and does Atlanta really have a path to a title in the next few years?
Surprised Murray is untouchable but he was pretty lights out at the end of the season/playoffs.
How do people think Harden ages? He's about 31.3 years-old right now and is sure to have a couple elite years left but not sure beyond that. He needs to go to a team that has a very real chance at a title in the next 2-3 years. Atlanta isn't on that track so they seem to be an odd fit even if they might have the pieces. The Nets obviously make sense given the age of Durant but they don't have the pieces unless it's a forced sale. Philly also makes sense since you probably can't count on Embiid to be elite far beyond his 30th bday and he turns 27 in March. But giving up Simmons is risky since they don't really have any other young talent.
All things equal, who would people rather have going forward, Ben or Bam?
Not related to Harden at all, just curious. Ben is 1 year older and hasn't changed much where as Bam took a huge leap last year and is a much better FT shooter.
Not related to Harden at all, just curious. Ben is 1 year older and hasn't changed much where as Bam took a huge leap last year and is a much better FT shooter.
I can see the appeal of adding Harden from Denver's POV, but I wouldn't feel great about giving up Murray to do so. He's still only 23, had an impressive playoff run this season where he demonstrated an ability to elevate his game (punctuated by two 50 point performances), and seems to genuinely enjoy his partnership with Jokic. Maybe I'm bullish on him compared to the rest of the Port Cellar, I don't know.
Trading Murray for a 31 year old Harden, who would inarguably take the ball out of Jokic's hands more than Murray, also really ratchets up the pressure for the Nuggets to win now. It feels similar to what Philly did when they dealt for Harris and Butler in 2018 - the raised the teams ceiling in the short term, but created a ton of uncertainty going forward. Denver has assets to add talent to their roster via trade, or allow some of their young guys to develop around Murray and Joker, and given the age of some of the other elite teams in the West, I think I'd be more inclined to build for the long haul rather than try to go for it now with Harden.
Additionally, the Beard has logged a shitload of minutes while remaining remarkably durable over the last eight years, but I do worry about how he'll age going forward, especially since the team that acquires him will be staring down the prospect of extending him sooner than later.
Harden for Porter Jr. is a much more interesting proposition for the Nuggets.
Harden for Embiid/filler/picks makes a lot of sense for Houston, presuming they can loop OKC in to swap Embiid for Horford and a pile of draft capital. And you're right, in the modern NBA the Sixers should just make Simmons the starting five and go for it with Harden and Simmons.
That would seemingly make a lot of sense. OKC has to cash in some of their chips at some point. Getting an in-his-prime Embiid gets them a marketable star. Or maybe Houston would just prefer to keep him. Who knows. In any event, Philly seems like the most logical location but not sure if they have the desire to make the deal.
I would think Atlanta might be interested in getting Harden - not for Trae (under any circumstances), but for Collins plus maybe two of their best young players plus some draft picks and swaps and salary filler - to showcase the viability of Atlanta as a marquee free agent destination. Have the Hawks *ever* signed or traded for one of the best players in the game at something near his peak? Schlenk has made it clear that all of his offseason moves are designed to be flexible enough to facilitate possibly acquiring a superstar if the opportunity arises, and once you get two (assuming Harden and Trae can partner each other in such a way that Trae looks fully like a superstar), it's much easier to get three, even when the cap math doesn't seem plausible on the surface.
Having said that, I don't know if Harden would want to go to Atlanta, or to stay there after a trade - the Hawks don't fit the "I want to be traded to a contender" narrative he seems to be peddling. (Plenty of good strip clubs in the A-T-L, though, as Harden himself seems to already know.) And I don't know that Schlenk would view Harden as enough of a piece to make the Hawks a contender while he's still in his prime. And I don't know that the Hawks would have the best offer anyway, in the context of someone like Simmons or Embiid potentially being available (even if Morey protests that they're not). So for my money, this is still all rather insubstantial speculation, even if it is nice for me to dream about the Hawks being truly relevant. And enough people seem to think that Atlanta really ought to be a marquee destination for NBA players that I really want to believe it might yet become one at some stage; if not now, then hopefully soon.
Having said that, I don't know if Harden would want to go to Atlanta, or to stay there after a trade - the Hawks don't fit the "I want to be traded to a contender" narrative he seems to be peddling. (Plenty of good strip clubs in the A-T-L, though, as Harden himself seems to already know.) And I don't know that Schlenk would view Harden as enough of a piece to make the Hawks a contender while he's still in his prime. And I don't know that the Hawks would have the best offer anyway, in the context of someone like Simmons or Embiid potentially being available (even if Morey protests that they're not). So for my money, this is still all rather insubstantial speculation, even if it is nice for me to dream about the Hawks being truly relevant. And enough people seem to think that Atlanta really ought to be a marquee destination for NBA players that I really want to believe it might yet become one at some stage; if not now, then hopefully soon.
Atlanta can't really make a Harden deal without Houston taking back Capela, at which point they can't include the other C on their roster, meaning that they either have to hold on to/pay Collins, or find someone to give them something for Capela, which seems unlikely.
Not really, he is way smaller than Harden. Luka is more like Harden. Trae is like a Kemba or a discount rack Steph Curry at best.
I mean in terms of raw production, not player type. Luka can be Harden, Trae can give you immense volume scoring and assists, but he'll never even be close to Harden's mediocre D.
Harden with historically bad D seems about right, value wise. I'm going to guess building around Trae Young would be like building around the 16/17 version of IT4.
I didn’t express that I think body size matters for playoff success. So Trae regular season might be able to put up big numbers, that’s a decent argument. James Harden is an all time great offensive player so I still think that’s a bit too high of a ceiling.
idle speculation, but ATL could keep Okongwu and find a Cauley-Stein out in the market
I like Collins offense a lot, probably too much (with his terrible defense)... + Hunter + Reddish + plenty of picks + Snell/Capela filler...it's a bunch of young players for Houston to start rebuilding around (C Wood +++ move).
Probably not enough...but may trump the Nets offer... Ben Simmons trumps all
I see Houston picked up Mason Jones, damn I liked him for the 2nd round.
How much of Collins defensive problem is Young and how much is him? Hard to know.
yea, ATL is a bad situation to show off your defensive skills. By midseason most of their games are meaningless.
in the right situation/coach (CBS) I think Collins is athletic enough to be a very effective 5
Trae Young at age 21 compared favorably with Steph Curry at age 25. Trae’s numbers last year 29/9/4 with 9.3FTs a game) came on a bottom tier team, but he’s an offensive dynamo. I don’t see how adding Harden is the way to build around Young. Rim protectors who can screen and rim run, and tall, long wings who can defend is the way to go.