Formula 1: General Discussion and 2020 Preview

SocrManiac

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What Hulk has done so far is remarkable. This is a crazy lateral force track, too. It’s hard to imagine he’s at full fitness without the motivation of a guaranteed seat, but he’s made a case he belongs in F1. I would have given a lot to see him out-qualify Stroll. I’ll settle for finishing ahead tomorrow.
 

swiftaw

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Seb hasn’t been the same since that incident with Hamilton last season (Baku?). He doesn’t seem like he’s focused mentally and makes lots of silly errors.
 
Imagine Tiger Woods in 2000 playing with the same clubs he was using that year, while all of his competitors had to use persimmon woods. That's what Lewis Hamilton feels like right now - it's so hard to tell just how much of his excellence is down to his skills and how much is down to his car. He won't win every week, just as Tiger wouldn't have won *every* week under those conditions...but it'd be so much more fun seeing him in a fair fight.
 

swiftaw

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I think all you can say is that evidence suggests he is better than Bottas (since you can do a direct comparison), but yes, the Mercedes is so much better than every other car this year that it isn't really a fair fight.
 

Chainsaw318

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I am also intrigued by the narrativethat Mercedes buckled down over the winter after Ferrari showed much better power last year.

If it then turned out that Ferrari’s performance was due to something illegal that they had to stop doing, Mercedes then has a car even more dominant than before.

As someone who came in at the beginning of this Merc era, I have come to enjoy the mid-pack racing as where the action is, and it’s as good as ever now, as most of the teams could trade the 4-10 spots at a given track.
It does seem, 3 races in however, that the Renault is at the back of even this group. With Ferrari, McLaren and Racing point ahead.
 

cgori

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Agree with both of those points - especially that the midpack racing is quite interesting this year, I do wish Renault (and Danny Ric) could show more though.

Lewis really seems to know how to take full advantage of the machinery he's given, to his credit.
 

SocrManiac

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Thanks to F1, I’m pretty sure my 5 year old thinks “God Save the Queen” and “Das Lied ded Deutschen” are two movements of the same song.
 

DrBlinky

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And Verstappen would have won if he didn't pit trying to get the fastest lap.
Was it solely to try for fastest lap or did they suspect the same type of tire issues and decided to play it safe? Didn't see all the post-race stuff but I thought I heard Verstappen state that he had reported in on potential tire issues 10 laps prior to coming in. (As was brought up during the race, was surprised that Mercedes didn't play it safe with a stop after Bottas' issues as they certainly had a sufficient buffer to do so.)

Good day for Albon considering all the early issues.
 
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SocrManiac

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Teams seem unified in stating that bits of carbon fiber (Kimi’s wing) were contributing to severe tire damage.

As a professional amateur analyst watching hungover on TV, I call bullshit. We saw tires delaminating, not punctures.

I also think Grosjean needed a black flag. Both Haas drivers are dangerous to themselves and everybody around them. I’m not buying Albon’s penalty, either. It was a stupid move, especially that early, but Magnussen was just regaining control from the previous curb.
 

Chainsaw318

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Teams seem unified in stating that bits of carbon fiber (Kimi’s wing) were contributing to severe tire damage.

As a professional amateur analyst watching hungover on TV, I call bullshit. We saw tires delaminating, not punctures.

I also think Grosjean needed a black flag. Both Haas drivers are dangerous to themselves and everybody around them. I’m not buying Albon’s penalty, either. It was a stupid move, especially that early, but Magnussen was just regaining control from the previous curb.
I saw a statement from Red Bull’s Christian Horner to that effect, but A) I don’t really believe it, and 2) I don’t think Red Bull has anything to apologize for.

They had lucked into 2nd when Bottas’ tire blew and then made the free pit for the fastest lap. I don’t see any reason to second guess that.

Mid-field was great, with Stroll, Ocon, Sainz, Ricciardo, Norris. Wish we had seen how Ricciardo took Norris, as Lando’s pass easier in the race was sweet.
Nice to see good racing in that whole group without anyone forcing anyone else off.

Grosjean on the other hand, woof. I think he’s out at the sport after this year. Just barely competitive in all aspects of the race, and has really become the premier whiner on the track last 2-3 years.
 
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Average Reds

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Racing point fined, 15 points deducted.

That seems like a hilariously light sentence for a team that has been caught blatantly cheating.
Actually, that seems like a cowardly decision by the stewards that does an injustice to all parties.

If the infraction is as serious as alleged, the stewards decision to allow RP to continue to use the illegal brake ducts going forward is incoherent. If the infraction is technical to the point where allowing them to continue to use the part is reasonable, then the penalty is beyond harsh.

Either way, it’s utter madness.
 

Chainsaw318

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The couple stories I have read are drawing distinction between the violation of technical regulations and the sporting regulations being the reason the penalty seems odd.

If it was a fully aware and obvious technical rules infraction, it would be a harsher penalty (unless you are Ferrari, in which case we will keep it quiet). The decision indicates that it is being treated as a sporting violation, more akin to loading up a baseball in a game than a complicated sign-stealing plot.

I don’t love the decision, but at the end of the day, didn’t want the car removed from the grid, as it’s fun to have another decent team, and happy they didnt penalize the drivers, who didn’t make the design decision.
 

Chainsaw318

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Happy to see Hulkenberg qualify so high, and at the same time, terrified to see Hulkenberg qualify so high.

it would be awesome for him to get a podium, as he has the dubious record of most races without one, and some heartbreaking near misses.

However, dude is also somewhat of a crash-magnet and engine failure warlock, so worries about what could happen at the start with him up there.

Great qualifying for Ricciardo, fingers crossed for a repeat of last weeks performance.
 

cgori

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I'm totally stealing this.

With this race believed to be a 2-stopper because of the softer tire choices, might we see a mid-pack team gamble for an advantage, do a 1-stopper and have some final lap tire issues? Sainz must be a little desperate after quali, he seems like a possibility.
 

Chainsaw318

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I found last week fairly boring, while some others I listen to for F1 stuff loved the strategy part of it, so YMMV.

Spain tomorrow looks to be potentially another 2 stop race where one of the tire types is deemed unusable (the hard in this case). It’s a course the drivers and fans know, which may play very different in the summer heat.

The Racing Point cars, if they grab points here in large number, will continue to piss off the other times mightily.

I just want the back and forth to result in the revealing of what Ferrari’s secret punishment deal from last year was about, as that will have all teams clawing each other to shreds.
 

cgori

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Lance Stroll is one of the most punchable humans I’ve seen in a long time.
It's amazing that his punchability is so high that it makes me wish that Vettel were driving better so his dad would be put in the awkward position of having to dump Lance for Seb.
 

SocrManiac

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It's amazing that his punchability is so high that it makes me wish that Vettel were driving better so his dad would be put in the awkward position of having to dump Lance for Seb.
Hulk made a pretty strong case at Silverstone. I’m still not convinced his last pit wasn’t a “get Lance ahead of him” stop.
 

Bongorific

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I’ve just started getting into F1 after watching the Netflix show/documentary for the past 2 seasons. Even knowing nothing about the sport, that show looked so amazing in 4K I was hooked. It helps that ESPN has the rights now as I’ve been watching the races through the app on Sunday nights.

Am I supposed to be rooting for a driver or a team? It seems there has been a ton of driver turnover the past couple of years. I imagine most international fans follow the driver from their home country regardless of the team? But their must be some team fandom/loyalty.

I was a fan of Sainz in the show so I’ve been pulling for him. With Haas a mess, is rooting for Zak Brown the closest thing for an American fan? I saw Sainz is moving to Ferrari next year anyway.

As a new spectator it also seems that Mercedes has been utterly dominant for several years now to the point where race outcomes are almost boring. Is this what international fans felt like with the Patriots? At least they were only 16-0 once. Here on the other hand the real completion looks to be who is competing for 4-12th place. Maybe it’s a difference between American and international sports but it’s odd how excited teams look because they secured 7th place in a race.

The show also made it seem that larger budgets equal better cars equal more podiums. While that may be unfair, I’m trying to look at it like baseball where the highest payroll doesn’t always win, but I’m not sure how true that is.

Finally I haven’t quite figured out how much teamwork is involved. I don’t know much about NASCAR but my understanding is it is very team oriented with coordinated drafting. F1 seems like sometimes teammates will compete and other times lay off. Again, the show made it seem nuts that teammates would compete against each other as it led to some costly crashes, but perhaps that is actually a rare event.
 

rguilmar

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I’ve just started getting into F1 after watching the Netflix show/documentary for the past 2 seasons. Even knowing nothing about the sport, that show looked so amazing in 4K I was hooked. It helps that ESPN has the rights now as I’ve been watching the races through the app on Sunday nights.

Am I supposed to be rooting for a driver or a team? It seems there has been a ton of driver turnover the past couple of years. I imagine most international fans follow the driver from their home country regardless of the team? But their must be some team fandom/loyalty.

I was a fan of Sainz in the show so I’ve been pulling for him. With Haas a mess, is rooting for Zak Brown the closest thing for an American fan? I saw Sainz is moving to Ferrari next year anyway.

As a new spectator it also seems that Mercedes has been utterly dominant for several years now to the point where race outcomes are almost boring. Is this what international fans felt like with the Patriots? At least they were only 16-0 once. Here on the other hand the real completion looks to be who is competing for 4-12th place. Maybe it’s a difference between American and international sports but it’s odd how excited teams look because they secured 7th place in a race.

The show also made it seem that larger budgets equal better cars equal more podiums. While that may be unfair, I’m trying to look at it like baseball where the highest payroll doesn’t always win, but I’m not sure how true that is.

Finally I haven’t quite figured out how much teamwork is involved. I don’t know much about NASCAR but my understanding is it is very team oriented with coordinated drafting. F1 seems like sometimes teammates will compete and other times lay off. Again, the show made it seem nuts that teammates would compete against each other as it led to some costly crashes, but perhaps that is actually a rare event.
I think everyone does F1 fandom their own way. There is no right or wrong way to pick who to root for. I always have a few teams and a few individual drivers who I pull for. There is a ton of turnover, so getting attached to one driver with one team is tricky. For my own reasons, I root for Ferrari and Haas, but this season find McLaren intriguing too. Always liked Danny Ric as a driver (I know I am not alone there) and to watch Charles LeClerc going back to his Sauber days. It works that he drives for Ferrari now, but I like watching him drive regardless. Likewise I have teams and drivers I root against.

Mercedes have been dominant for a while now. This year is obscene though. Their car is just so superior to everyone else. The last few years Ferrari seemed to have the pace (by breaking some rules it appears) and RB had a puncher's chance.

The more you watch F1, the more you appreciate those middle-of-the-race battles. That's where the real driving is. This season especially so. Anytime a car does better than expected is a reason for celebration because the entire team did something to make it outperform expectations.

As refreshing as the McLaren team can seem, drivers on teams usually vary from grudging respect to outright disdain for one another. The reason is mostly competitive. There are only 20 F1 drivers in the world. How good is each individual driver? It's hard to tell because there are ten teams with ten different depths of pockets and ten different cars. The only apples-to-apples comparison is the two drivers on the same team. As a result, teammates tend to battle because they are measuring themselves against each other. One who consistently loses to his teammate will likely be replaced, and possibly be the one left standing at the end of the game of musical F1 cars.
 

cgori

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Interesting, because I am really curious to see how the 3-8 (or even 3-10) battle plays out tomorrow. Yea it's not so fun knowing the 1-2 results will be Silver (and most likely HAM/BOT in that order), but after that it looks like a wide-open race, whereas it used to be Max = 3rd, almost guaranteed. I expect some weird strategy calls in the race.
 

SocrManiac

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Can we red flag the field and then give Hamilton a penalty that sends him to the back of the grid about 10 laps into every race? (Like he'd get if he were leading a Mario Kart race and got hit with a turtle or something.) Because I would watch every F1 race if that happened.
Seconded.
 

rguilmar

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Interesting, because I am really curious to see how the 3-8 (or even 3-10) battle plays out tomorrow. Yea it's not so fun knowing the 1-2 results will be Silver (and most likely HAM/BOT in that order), but after that it looks like a wide-open race, whereas it used to be Max = 3rd, almost guaranteed. I expect some weird strategy calls in the race.
I'm with you. The first two places seem pretty predictable (today's race notwithstanding) but man it can be crazy from 3-14. I've grown to really enjoy the midfield battles, so having one team far out ahead and three way behind puts 12 drivers fighting it out in the middle. Strategy, car strengths, and pure racing ability of the drivers all can be fun to watch, at least to me.

But today's race was awesome to watch.
 

cgori

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This really is a great sport to watch. 2 hours, no commercials, drink the coffee and make a nice breakfast on a Sunday morning. Less guilt when your church isn’t holding in person services, too.
It used to air on NBCSN with ads, in the beginning of their coverage package. They would miss stuff on track as a result, fairly regularly. :( Later they switched to that picture-in-picture thing where the ad shows next to the program. Still not great.

But F1 (as on ESPN now, and how it was on Fox sports a long time ago) + Premier League soccer make it really really clear to me how much we as Americans are accustomed to advertising being *constantly* part of the media we consume. It's a little disturbing.
 

cgori

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Just to check, was I the only one for whom the "first" broadcast of the race was on ESPNNews in the mid-afternoon? And they had ads but "paused the action" for the ads? And then about an hour into the broadcast, forgot they were showing F1 during an ad break and swapped to a WTA Singles event for part of a set, then swapped back to F1 because someone in a booth realized what they had done? Yeesh.

Interesting race though, clearly more tire graining/wear is better for competitive results.
 

SocrManiac

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Mercedes eeked out their title today. I wonder if Hamilton can hang on by his fingernails.

At least Danny got his second podium and gave Lewis some Aussie foot bacteria.
 

Chainsaw318

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Weird race -

George Russell, still looking for his first points in the worst car on the grid, was absolutely heartbroken after botching the restart and spinning into the wall under the safety car. You could see him hanging his head and banging the fence in a shot as they moved his car, and then he sat on the side of the race area for a bit, like a far less dramatic Luke Wilson in the Royal Tenenbaums when he has his breakdown on the tennis court. Made me feel for the guy.

The opposite of what I feel for Max V, after his continual baby antics and hand-waving at apologizing for calling Stroll a "mongloid" at the last race. And someone needs to sit Stroll down for a bit as well, as he's had numerous incidents the last few races, tested Covid+, and almost ran over a mechanic in the pits today.
 

SocrManiac

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Stroll has absolutely no business in F1. He’s a menace all over the circuit, from his Covid-spreading in the paddock, his stupidity on the track, and now nearly murdering a mechanic by being unable to stop in the pit box. Now Perez doesn’t have a drive so daddy can maintain his little prince’s seat. I’ve had it watching this guy botch races and ruin others’. For everything drivers can earn penalty points for, running over his own crew should be on the list.
 

Chainsaw318

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Stroll had seemed much improved at the beginning of the year, which was promising, with a couple of high finished and some good consistency, but has taken a huge step backward the last 4 races he's been in and the one he missed due to illness.

If Perez ends up with Verstappen next year at Red Bull, they are going to go at it something fierce, Perez is not going to defer to Max's shit.
 

swiftaw

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Anyone watching this morning? Big crash on the start, Grojean's car hit the barrier, split into 2 and burst into flames (he's okay).
 

SocrManiac

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Most terrifying thing I’ve seen in F1 live in a long time.

Inappropriate, weak attempt at humor removed.
 
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SocrManiac

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From an engineering perspective, I’m curious about the spectacular failure of all of the fuel safety equipment. How does that happen to a modern F1 car?

I’m also blown away by safety systems that allow him to hop out of that with just minor burns on his wrists and ankles. Absolutely incredible.
 

swiftaw

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They dont think the tank ruptured otherwise there would've been a much bigger explosion. They think it was the small amount of fuel that is not in the tank.
 

kfoss99

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That was the worst survivable crash I've seen since Michael Waltrip's car was split down the middle front to back at Bristol in 1990.

Remarkable bravery by the safety crew.

Bless the engineers who designed a car that allowed Grojean to literally walk away.
 

Average Reds

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They dont think the tank ruptured otherwise there would've been a much bigger explosion. They think it was the small amount of fuel that is not in the tank.
I buy that. The car had max fuel at the outset of the race, which means the residual amount of fuel in the engine, fuel lines and fuel bag (which they are talking about now) is what caused the fireball.
 

Average Reds

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The one thing that I haven’t heard them talk about (and I was away for 30 minutes so I might have missed it) is the collapse of the wall that he hit.

If that wall doesn’t give, he breaks his legs and he doesn’t climb out of that fireball.

The amount of things that had to go right - in addition to the incredible safety advances - to allow him to walk away from that is amazing.