2020 Gronk Watch: Gronkmania

kelpapa · Apr 21, 2020

That offense is going to be unreal. They got no production from TE last year, and had protection issues. This solves both problems.

Mueller's Twin Grannies said:
I don't have time to go through every one he's ever made BUT has BB ever made a trade where it wasn't a player for picks or picks for a player? Has there ever been a player-for-player (picks included or not) trade? If not, I don't know why anyone expected one.

Also, their cap situation still blows and they probably can't bring Howard in without moving someone else first. Or maybe Bill just doesn't want him.

WWE is going to have to send a ref to every game if he doesn't drop the 24/7 Championship prior to training camp, because every tackle will be a pinning predicament and there could be several title changes over the course of one game.

Jonathan Cooper was in the Chandler Jones trade. So, sort of.

Edit: I meant to edit this from "no production" to minimal before posting, but for some reason that didn't go through.

Hector Salamanca · Apr 21, 2020

Mueller's Twin Grannies said:
I don't have time to go through every one he's ever made BUT has BB ever made a trade where it wasn't a player for picks or picks for a player? Has there ever been a player-for-player (picks included or not) trade? If not, I don't know why anyone expected one.

Only one off the top of my head I can think of is Brissett for Dorsett. I'm sure there have been a couple others but it's definitely less common for BB.

E5 Yaz · Apr 21, 2020

moondog80 said:
You're right. Comparing 2020 Jim Brown to 2020 Gronk is a great analogy.

So is comparing Gronk 2020 to Gronk in his prime

Cellar-Door · Apr 21, 2020

Mugsy’s Walk-Off Bunt said:
I’m with the crowd pushing for Gronk for the 45. I don’t think it’s crazy to expect that, given his talent, his “draw,” and what a game changer he STILL is. Then again, BB shrugged and offered Jimmy G for a 2nd that SF fell over themselves to say yes to in ten minutes, so maybe the “6th rounder/late round pick swap” guys are on target. Feels like in the early years BB used to do better, be more aggressive when it came to extracting VALUE out of trades. Ok fingers crossed hoping for a 2nd, and will be even more psyched to root for the Bucs unless they’re playing the Pats.

Tampa isn't trading 45 for Gronk, it makes no sense, he might not even get 45 if he hadn't been retired for a year.
The comparison is obviously Marshawn. They got a lot more for Gronk than SEA got for Marshawn, in fact more of a difference than I expected.

moondog80 said:
Who is also the best at his position ever.

But hasn't been the best at his position in several years, hasn't played a full season in forever, just skipped an entire season and weighs like 30 pounds less than his playing weight

moondog80 said:
So then why did Tampa offer a 4th rounder? Why not a 6th rounder?

Because their options are a 4th and OJ Howard or
a 7th, Gronk and the pick they get for OJ Howard (hint it's gonna be better than a 4th).

The Patriots only leverage was that Tampa wanted Gronk, that's why they got what they did. That isn't unlimited leverage though, at some point for Tampa it makes sense just to keep their picks. 4th for a 7th was the middleground they found.

Ferm Sheller · Apr 21, 2020

moondog80 said:
So then why did Tampa offer a 4th rounder? Why not a 6th rounder?

Um, maybe they did offer a 6 and the Pats talked them up to 4. Pats didn't have a ton of leverage here.

Caspir · Apr 21, 2020

Melrose Diner said:
You think Gronk retiring was the reason Brady left? That feels like a stretch.

No, and I was scattered in how I said that. I think if he wanted to come back, Brady stays, but I think that’s an alternate universe given what’s happened in the past month. There’s clearly some sort of issue behind the scenes. Bound to happen after this long, but it just makes me even more curious about what went on the past three years where there was so much success to break it all up.

kelpapa · Apr 21, 2020

Cameron Brate is under contract for the next four years. He or Howard has to be traded.

Jed Zeppelin · Apr 21, 2020

Mueller's Twin Grannies said:
I don't have time to go through every one he's ever made BUT has BB ever made a trade where it wasn't a player for picks or picks for a player? Has there ever been a player-for-player (picks included or not) trade? If not, I don't know why anyone expected one.

Also, their cap situation still blows and they probably can't bring Howard in without moving someone else first. Or maybe Bill just doesn't want him.

WWE is going to have to send a ref to every game if he doesn't drop the 24/7 Championship prior to training camp, because every tackle will be a pinning predicament and there could be several title changes over the course of one game.

Player for player trades are pretty rare in the NFL in general. Like, to the point that the ones that first come to mind are deals like Clinton Portis for Champ Bailey, Santana Moss for Laveranues Coles and, more recently, Shady McCoy for Kiko Alonso...5 years ago.

kelpapa · Apr 21, 2020

Caspir said:
No, and I was scattered in how I said that. I think if he wanted to come back, Brady stays, but I think that’s an alternate universe given what’s happened in the past month. There’s clearly some sort of issue behind the scenes. Bound to happen after this long, but it just makes me even more curious about what went on the past three years where there was so much success to break it all up.

I'm guessing the Lions trade for Gronk really pissed him off.

Ferm Sheller · Apr 21, 2020

moondog80 said:
You're right. Comparing 2020 Jim Brown to 2020 Gronk is a great analogy.

Gronk was still very good last time we saw him, and he's had a full year to heal up.

Jim Brown has had a ton of years to heal up. Gronk turns 31 in May -- they're not getting the 25 year-old version.

moondog80 · Apr 21, 2020

Ferm Sheller said:
Um, maybe they did offer a 6 and the Pats talked them up to 4. Pats didn't have a ton of leverage here.

Obviously the Pats talked them up to a 4th. I was responding to the logic that since Gronk wasn't going to play, the Pats should be happy with anything at all that was more than nothing.

Spelunker · Apr 21, 2020

Oppo said:
Rooting for no sports this year just to gloat about trading Betts and Gronk and then not even playing.

This is basically where I am now. Which is...a turn of events.

ndpope · Apr 21, 2020

Mueller's Twin Grannies said:
I don't have time to go through every one he's ever made BUT has BB ever made a trade where it wasn't a player for picks or picks for a player? Has there ever been a player-for-player (picks included or not) trade? If not, I don't know why anyone expected one.

Also, their cap situation still blows and they probably can't bring Howard in without moving someone else first. Or maybe Bill just doesn't want him.

WWE is going to have to send a ref to every game if he doesn't drop the 24/7 Championship prior to training camp, because every tackle will be a pinning predicament and there could be several title changes over the course of one game.

Jacoby Brissett for Phillip Dorsett

Ferm Sheller · Apr 21, 2020

moondog80 said:
Obviously the Pats talked them up to a 4th. I was responding to the logic that since Gronk wasn't going to play, the Pats should be happy with anything at all that was more than nothing.

Gotcha. But moving up from the 7th to the 4th is far from nothing. They need a kicker and could turn a 7th into the best kicker in the draft (or at least one better than one they could get in the 7th).

InstaFace · Apr 21, 2020

E5 Yaz said:
So is comparing Gronk 2020 to Gronk in his prime

When last we saw him in spandex, Gronk wasn't some shell of himself, he was catching the decisive pass in the super bowl.

Yeah he's lost 30 lbs of muscle since then, he's also got 6 months to put it back on now. I don't see why we should assume he's done, unless we're really motivated to not feel hurt.

E5 Yaz · Apr 21, 2020

Oppo said:
Rooting for no sports this year just to gloat about trading Betts and Gronk and then not even playing.

Why screw things up for everyone else, just because you don't want to follow your teams this year?

Just don't follow them

jsinger121 · Apr 21, 2020

Ferm Sheller said:
Gotcha. But moving up from the 7th to the 4th is far from nothing. They need a kicker and could turn a 7th into the best kicker in the draft.

They have 2 other 7th rounders to pick a kicker.

E5 Yaz · Apr 21, 2020

InstaFace said:
When last we saw him in spandex, Gronk wasn't some shell of himself, he was catching the decisive pass in the super bowl.

Definitive proof that he hasn't lost a step and/or injuries haven't taken a toll!!!

moondog80 · Apr 21, 2020

Ferm Sheller said:
Gotcha. But moving up from the 7th to the 4th is far from nothing. They need a kicker and could turn a 7th into the best kicker in the draft.

Sure, it's not nothing. And they are in a far better position that I am to determine the best they could get. But if 1.5 years of Sanu was worth a 2nd round pick, I thought they could have at least gotten a 3rd for a year of Gronk.

InstaFace · Apr 21, 2020

I mean, I'm rooting against Gronk un-retiring for this, just because I love the guy but he has absolutely no regard for his own well-being and has taken way too many concussive hits over the last decade. Like Brady once felt about Welker, at some point if you care about the guy you hope he stays retired, and stops taking brutal hits.

Ferm Sheller · Apr 21, 2020

jsinger121 said:
They have 2 other 7th rounders to pick a kicker.

I meant that the best kicker in the draft might not last until the 7th, but might last until the pick they get from Tampa. Just saying that you can look at this as moving up to get the best K in the draft (or whomever they feel is the best K).

InstaFace · Apr 21, 2020

moondog80 said:
Sure, it's not nothing. And they are in a far better position that I am to determine the best they could get. But if 1.5 years of Sanu was worth a 2nd round pick, I thought they could have at least gotten a 3rd for a year of Gronk.

Sanu was willing to play for Atlanta.

Cellar-Door · Apr 21, 2020

Ferm Sheller said:
Gotcha. But moving up from the 7th to the 4th is far from nothing. They need a kicker and could turn a 7th into the best kicker in the draft (or at least one better than one they could get in the 7th).

They have multiple 7ths, but also....... you don't really have to draft a kicker, decent chance the best kicker to come out of this draft is undrafted, there are also a lot of FA kickers out there who can be had for vet min.

Edit- just saw your post. Under no circumstances should anyone ever draft a kicker in the 4th. MAYBE a "can't miss" guy you take late 6th, but even can't miss kickers often.... miss.

Ferm Sheller · Apr 21, 2020

moondog80 said:
Sure, it's not nothing. And they are in a far better position that I am to determine the best they could get. But if 1.5 years of Sanu was worth a 2nd round pick, I thought they could have at least gotten a 3rd for a year of Gronk.

Sanu was an in season trade and the Pats very possibly/likely had competitors for him. For Gronk, it's TB or nothing (presumably). IOW, Atlanta had much more leverage with Sanu than NE does with Gronk.

RedOctober3829 · Apr 21, 2020

I expect Gronk to come out and have a really good season. He had a whole year to heal up and gets to play in an offense with Mike Evans and Chris Godwin so he should have much better matchups than he had at the end with the Pats.

ifmanis5 · Apr 21, 2020

Honestly I'm fine with how this played out. Good luck to the oldies Gronk and TB, I've already turned the page.
The Betts trade, on the other hand... still furious.

Cellar-Door · Apr 21, 2020

moondog80 said:
Sure, it's not nothing. And they are in a far better position that I am to determine the best they could get. But if 1.5 years of Sanu was worth a 2nd round pick, I thought they could have at least gotten a 3rd for a year of Gronk.

Sanu was....
1. Not retired for a year
2. Playing every week for the team trading him (pretty well too) and willing to do so going forward,
3. A trade option for every other team in the league, with no real ability to stop a trade anywhere.

Zedia · Apr 21, 2020

Cellar-Door said:
They have multiple 7ths, but also....... you don't really have to draft a kicker, decent chance the best kicker to come out of this draft is undrafted, there are also a lot of FA kickers out there who can be had for vet min.

I think Kyed has had the Pats taking Rodrigo Blankenship in just about every mock he’s done (I’m not even sure it’s not a bit at this point). He seems to think it’s a foregone conclusion that they’d take a kicker mid-rounds.

Ferm Sheller · Apr 21, 2020

Cellar-Door said:
They have multiple 7ths, but also....... you don't really have to draft a kicker, decent chance the best kicker to come out of this draft is undrafted, there are also a lot of FA kickers out there who can be had for vet min.

Edit- just saw your post. Under no circumstances should anyone ever draft a kicker in the 4th. MAYBE a "can't miss" guy you take late 6th, but even can't miss kickers often.... miss.

Ghost was taken in the fourth. If there's a guy they like as much or nearly as much (and other teams feel the same way), they're more likely to get him in the 4th than the 7th. That's all I'm saying.

Average Reds · Apr 21, 2020

Mystic Merlin said:
Why wouldn’t Tampa wait until he unretired amdeffectively force the Pats to release him? Who else would trade for his rights if he unretired, as there’s no indication that Gronk would play for any other team?

Why piss off the Pats and possibly trigger a tampering investigation when you can make everyone happy and get what you want for peanuts?

RedOctober3829 · Apr 21, 2020

View: https://twitter.com/diannaESPN/status/1252696470031130624

Oppo · Apr 21, 2020

E5 Yaz said:
Why screw things up for everyone else, just because you don't want to follow your teams this year?

Just don't follow them

Because I want to see de facto trades netting Verdugo/Downs/Wong/4th rd pick for Price/7th rd pick

Ed Hillel · Apr 21, 2020

RedOctober3829 said:
View: https://twitter.com/diannaESPN/status/1252696470031130624

What a scoop!

Ed Hillel · Apr 21, 2020

Gronk could have just come back and held out, so gotta just take the 4th and be happy. Not like Gronk was a monster his last season, either.

Salem's Lot · Apr 21, 2020

I don’t know why anyone is upset with this. It’s basically a free mid round pick in a rebuild. Maybe they can get a 3rd for Jules somewhere before he’s a pain in the ass in training camp? As soon as Brady was gone Bill should get all the TB 12 out of the room.

Salem's Lot · Apr 21, 2020

RedOctober3829 said:
View: https://twitter.com/diannaESPN/status/1252696470031130624

That’s top notch investigative journalism there Dianna. Way to work that story.

RedOctober3829 · Apr 21, 2020

Salem's Lot said:
That’s top notch investigative journalism there Dianna. Way to work that story.

It's almost like Brady is de facto GM now in Tampa.

Mugsy's Jock · Apr 21, 2020

RedOctober3829 said:
View: https://twitter.com/diannaESPN/status/1252696470031130624

All this time I was assuming it was Ronald Jones who connected the dots.

DourDoerr · Apr 21, 2020

moved to other thread

Soxy · Apr 21, 2020

InstaFace said:
When last we saw him in spandex, Gronk wasn't some shell of himself, he was catching the decisive pass in the super bowl.

Yeah he's lost 30 lbs of muscle since then, he's also got 6 months to put it back on now. I don't see why we should assume he's done, unless we're really motivated to not feel hurt.

He came up big in the AFC Championship and Super Bowl, but he was really a shell of himself for the bulk of that season. Anyone expecting top vintage Gronk is likely to be disappointed.

The plus side for him and Tampa is that he won't have to be vintage Gronk. His presence alone will create matchup problems for opposing defenses.

The Social Chair · Apr 21, 2020

DourDoerr said:
Perhaps Tampa weather and locale played a large part too. Would Gronk have followed TB to Green Bay?

Probably. Seems like his conditions were a) Brady is his QB b) Belichick is not his coach.

Mugsy's Jock · Apr 21, 2020

Ed Hillel said:
Not like Gronk was a monster his last season, either.

I'd take issue with this -- Gronk's blocking in 2018 was outstanding. Not that a slimmed-down Gronk will be able to blow people up like the 2018 version, but he was amazing.

BigSoxFan · Apr 21, 2020

Soxy Brown said:
He came up big in the AFC Championship and Super Bowl, but he was really a shell of himself for the bulk of that season. Anyone expecting top vintage Gronk is likely to be disappointed.

The plus side for him and Tampa is that he won't have to be vintage Gronk. His presence alone will create matchup problems for opposing defenses.

I feel like he could be like 2010 Gronk from production standpoint. Limited targets and yardage but lots of TDs.

GoDa · Apr 21, 2020

One 4th round pick? Are you kidding me? Could've easily twisted TB arms for more. That's a joke.

Euclis20 · Apr 21, 2020

Soxy Brown said:
He came up big in the AFC Championship and Super Bowl, but he was really a shell of himself for the bulk of that season. Anyone expecting top vintage Gronk is likely to be disappointed.

The plus side for him and Tampa is that he won't have to be vintage Gronk. His presence alone will create matchup problems for opposing defenses.

This is, of course, a relative term. Per FO he was the 6th best TE in 2018, despite only playing 13 games. In 2017 he missed two games (one due to suspension) and was far and away the best TE in the league:

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/nfl/te/2017

Euclis20 · Apr 21, 2020

GoDa said:
One 4th round pick? Are you kidding me? Could've easily twisted TB arms for more. That's a joke.

Or Tampa could have said no and waited it out for the Pats to either cut him entirely (how long would they keep their HOF tight end hanging?) or give him up for a 6th or 7th round pick. If they held out for more it would have turned into an ugly staring contest that had no guarantee of turning out better than a 4th round pick.

bankshot1 · Apr 21, 2020

Big winner was Fox. Watching Gronk in that role was painful.

Addition by subtraction.

dixoncox · Apr 21, 2020

moondog80 said:
Who is also the best at his position ever.

Did Tampa trade for Tony Gonzalez?

ifmanis5 · Apr 21, 2020

Nink on ESPN said he was lifting with Gronk while he was retired and Gronk hinted at a comeback. Nink also said he'd guess that Tom called Gronk and talked him into it.

GoDa · Apr 21, 2020

Euclis20 said:
Or Tampa could have said no and waited it out for the Pats to either cut him entirely (how long would they keep their HOF tight end hanging?) or give him up for a 6th or 7th round pick. If they held out for more it would have turned into an ugly staring contest that had no guarantee of turning out better than a 4th round pick.

I'm sorry. Neither Gronk, nor TB had any leverage. Leak out that Gronk is looking to move to TB - but the Pats are looking for a better deal than swapping 4th and 7th round picks.. and ALL of the pressure if on TB. What - are they building for the future?

2020 Gronk Watch: Gronkmania

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