That was then: Celebrating what was

Dollar

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good thing Tuna didn't ask for a 6th-rounder too.
Yeah, it's hard to imagine what the past 20 years would have been like without Chad Ward. (the 4th and 7th round picks thrown in to the Jets were in the '01 draft.)

If they had included their 6th round pick in the 2000 draft, it would have been the Antwan Harris pick because Brady came later as an untradeable compensatory selection.

I'm not really sure why I decided to look that up.
 

BigSoxFan

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Yeah, it's hard to imagine what the past 20 years would have been like without Chad Ward. (the 4th and 7th round picks thrown in to the Jets were in the '01 draft.)

If they had included their 6th round pick in the 2000 draft, it would have been the Antwan Harris pick because Brady came later as an untradeable compensatory selection.

I'm not really sure why I decided to look that up.
Wasn’t Antwan Harris the guy who Brown lateraled the ball to after the blocked punt in 2001 AFCCG? Still counts!
 

Dollar

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Wasn’t Antwan Harris the guy who Brown lateraled the ball to after the blocked punt in 2001 AFCCG? Still counts!
He also dislodged a fumble with his helmet in the Super Bowl, if I remember correctly.

edit: dammit tims! always a step ahead
 
Last edited:

sheamonu

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Just thinking...

Thirty five years ago, had you been talking with someone just after Super Bowl XIX (they used to play these things in January) and you had said “Someone, over the next 35 years an NFL team will have gone to 11 Super Bowls - can you guess who that team would be?” Someone might have listed the top five or so teams in something like the following order:

San Francisco - Starting to look like a dynasty.

Miami - Had already been five times, had that great young QB who was sure to get back.

Dallas - been a number of times, had some down years but hey -“America’s Team” - right?

Pittsburgh - Hey - great football town that had already won four.

Oakland/LA- Da Raiders seemed to go every few years.

But I’m more interested in what teams Someone in 1985 would have said were the five teams LEAST likely to have been at eleven trips to the Super Bowl in 2020. I think the list might have been something like:

Green Bay - I know they were in the first two but, they’ve sucked forever, no players (particularly black players) want to go there and (incredible to think now) they play half their home games in Milwaukee.

The New York Football Giants - The most memorable moment in their post merger history involved their QB forgetting to take a knee. They sucked, and some joker named Parcells coaches them. What’s he ever done?

Buffalo - Green Bay with a waterfall.

Tie for last between New Orleans and New England. Even Tampa and Seattle, relatively new franchises, had better futures than these two sad sacks. Saints fans literally wore sacks over their heads. But at least they had a fancy domed stadium in a warm, friendly city. New England? Well, contrary to popular opinion, their owner wasn’t cheap - he just didn’t have any money, which is different and perhaps more damaging when competing against the Lamar Hunts and Clint Murchisons of the world. The stadium sucked, the weather wasn’t great and the greatest moment in franchise history arguably involved an ex-con driving a converted power mower. Sorry- a current con, since the guy was technically still in prison, just out on work release. Getting sent to Foxboro wasn’t that great a step up from the laundry, just (maybe) a few more people and worse toilets.

Just thinking...
 

Jimbodandy

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Yep. I remember thinking that the XXXVI was a freak of luck and saying to my Yankee fan sister in law in the summer of 2002 that "if the fucking PATRIOTS can win a super bowl, the Red Sox can win a world series".

18 years later, the Sox have 4, and the Pats added 5 more wins and 8 more appearances. I would have drug tested anyone who thought that this was possible.
 

BaseballJones

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Yep. I remember thinking that the XXXVI was a freak of luck and saying to my Yankee fan sister in law in the summer of 2002 that "if the fucking PATRIOTS can win a super bowl, the Red Sox can win a world series".

18 years later, the Sox have 4, and the Pats added 5 more wins and 8 more appearances. I would have drug tested anyone who thought that this was possible.
Yep. Throw in the first Celtics' title in 22 years, and the first Bruins' title in 38 years, and that's a crap ton of hardware on the shelves. And yes, it's true...nobody in their right mind would have thought any of this possible.

In the fall of 2001, the Bruins were coming off a season where they finished 4th in their division and missed the playoffs for the second straight season. The Celtics were coming off a 36-win season (their 8th straight losing campaign). The Red Sox had just completed an 82-win season, and the Patriots were coming off a 5-11 season the year before.

I mean...things were DISMAL.
 

Leskanic's Thread

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Ray Borque bringing the Avalanche cup to City Hall Plaza turned things around!

Another way of looking at things: imagine being told in 2001 that, in the next 18 years, the Red Sox would lose two heartbreaking ALCS game 7s, the Celtics would blow a 4th quarter lead to the Lakers in a Finals game 7, the Bruins would lose two Cup finals, and the Patriots would lose three winnable Super Bowls, two of them involving horseshoe level circus catches going against them...and we would still consider the era to be an indisputable golden age of championship success. It's crazy that we've had so many heartbreaking losses, but have had even more exhilarating wins.
 

BaseballJones

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Yep and I know there's a lot of titles that Boston teams could have lost, but... The Celtics *should* have beaten the Lakers. The Patriots had late fourth quarter leads in all three SBs they lose. The Bruins lost game 7 at home last year. Boston could easily have five more championships.
 

InstaFace

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2010 vs the Lakers is second in hurt only to the Scottish Game for me, though bigger Bruins fans than I might fairly argue for the SCF last year. But this thread isn't Lamenting What Could Have Been.

For every title game that could have gone in our favor is a title that happened that took a minor miracle to come out our way. We had no business winning the WS in 2013, the Lombardi in 2001 or 2018 (or 2016 for that matter), probably others - we've had a lot of bounces go our way. I'm grateful for the varying degrees of witchcraft it took to bring those home.
 

SemperFidelisSox

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It all evens out in the end. The Tuck Rule vs The Helmet Catch. Butler’s interception vs Manningham’s catch. Aaron Boone vs Tony Clark’s ground rule double. There are a hell of a lot of ‘would’ve and could’ve’ during this run, especially with the Patriots.
 

johnmd20

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It all evens out in the end. The Tuck Rule vs The Helmet Catch. Butler’s interception vs Manningham’s catch. Aaron Boone vs Tony Clark’s ground rule double. There are a hell of a lot of ‘would’ve and could’ve’ during this run, especially with the Patriots.
It really is astounding how thin the line is between winning and losing. If Jimmy G completes that 3rd and 10 bomb, everyone is talking about how Andy Reid just can't win the big one. If SF doesn't pass on 2nd and 5 and Mostert instead rushes for 8, everyone is talking about how defense beats offense every time in the Super Bowl.

The only team that just eviscerated everyone was the 2018 Sox. That team was a juggernaut. Every other championship win or loss came down to a few plays, either way.
 

Shaky Walton

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It really is astounding how thin the line is between winning and losing. If Jimmy G completes that 3rd and 10 bomb, everyone is talking about how Andy Reid just can't win the big one. If SF doesn't pass on 2nd and 5 and Mostert instead rushes for 8, everyone is talking about how defense beats offense every time in the Super Bowl.

The only team that just eviscerated everyone was the 2018 Sox. That team was a juggernaut. Every other championship win or loss came down to a few plays, either way.
True, they played a 6 game Finals, but I would argue that the 1986 Cs were way more dominant than fortunate. I was never really worried that the Rockets would win that series and unlike the '84 Finals, it didn't turn on any freakish plays or steals. That ' 86 Celtics team was such a pleasure to watch.

All that said, your point remains. Most champions could have been second place finishers or worse and most second place finishers could have been champions. Hell, if Don Blackmon catches that pass between the 5s on his jersey....I know, I know....
 

BuellMiller

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It really is astounding how thin the line is between winning and losing. If Jimmy G completes that 3rd and 10 bomb, everyone is talking about how Andy Reid just can't win the big one. If SF doesn't pass on 2nd and 5 and Mostert instead rushes for 8, everyone is talking about how defense beats offense every time in the Super Bowl.

The only team that just eviscerated everyone was the 2018 Sox. That team was a juggernaut. Every other championship win or loss came down to a few plays, either way.
The 2007 Red Sox obviously wasn't quite as impressive as the 2018 version in terms of the playoff run, in that they went 7 games with the Indians. But of the 4 games they won, what "lucky" moments did they really have? G1 and G5 were Beckett dominating with more than enough offense. Game 6 was the JD Drew led blow-out. Game 7, had the Lofton hold at 3rd in the later innings? But that game still turned into a blow-out after...
 

InstaFace

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Yeah, if you're ranking how dominant our teams were in their runs to the title, the 2007 Sox were pretty far up there in terms of "never in doubt". Right with them would be the 2004 Patriots, and both decently behind the 2018 Red Sox. But even great teams like the 2008 Celtics or 2018 Patriots had at least one game or series where it got close, and failure was a realistic possibility.

Bottom of the list, in terms of "squeakers where we straight-up stole a title", would have to be the 2001 Pats and 2013 Sox.
 

BaseballJones

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Yeah, if you're ranking how dominant our teams were in their runs to the title, the 2007 Sox were pretty far up there in terms of "never in doubt". Right with them would be the 2004 Patriots, and both decently behind the 2018 Red Sox. But even great teams like the 2008 Celtics or 2018 Patriots had at least one game or series where it got close, and failure was a realistic possibility.

Bottom of the list, in terms of "squeakers where we straight-up stole a title", would have to be the 2001 Pats and 2013 Sox.
Quibble about the 2007 Red Sox....they were down 3-1 to a really good Indians team in the ALCS following three straight losses by a combined score of 24-11. They were so very much on the ropes, especially with CC going in game 5. They proceeded to pound the Indians 3 straight but that was dicey there after the game 4 drubbing. They could easily have lost that series.
 

Soxy

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I'd also put the 2018 Patriots much closer to "straight up stole a title" than a "great team." They went 11-5, which was their worst regular season record since the 2009 season, when Brady was coming back from ACL surgery. They sucked on the road, all five losses were to teams that didn't make the playoffs, and they got blown out by the 5-11 Jags and the 6-10 Lions. Not to mention the uncharacteristically un-Patriots-like debacle at the end of the Miami game. They even lost to the damn Steelers, who the Pats own.

Going into KC and winning was awesome, the defense shutting down the Rams offense was awesome, but that playoff run kinda came out of nowhere, and anyone saying otherwise is using revisionist history. A lot of people were predicting they would lose at home to the Chargers in their first playoff game.
 

BaseballJones

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I'd also put the 2018 Patriots much closer to "straight up stole a title" than a "great team." They went 11-5, which was their worst regular season record since the 2009 season, when Brady was coming back from ACL surgery. They sucked on the road, all five losses were to teams that didn't make the playoffs, and they got blown out by the 5-11 Jags and the 6-10 Lions. Not to mention the uncharacteristically un-Patriots-like debacle at the end of the Miami game. They even lost to the damn Steelers, who the Pats own.

Going into KC and winning was awesome, the defense shutting down the Rams offense was awesome, but that playoff run kinda came out of nowhere, and anyone saying otherwise is using revisionist history. A lot of people were predicting they would lose at home to the Chargers in their first playoff game.
Well if not for a stupid once-in-a-generation play by Miami, they would have been 12-4, just like every year basically. And while they lost to five non-playoff teams, the flip side is that they beat every single playoff team on their schedule - both in the regular season and in the post season. So that's pretty impressive. They were a very good team last year. They 100% earned their championship by being better than their opponents. Not luck. Better.
 

johnmd20

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I'd also put the 2018 Patriots much closer to "straight up stole a title" than a "great team." They went 11-5, which was their worst regular season record since the 2009 season, when Brady was coming back from ACL surgery. They sucked on the road, all five losses were to teams that didn't make the playoffs, and they got blown out by the 5-11 Jags and the 6-10 Lions. Not to mention the uncharacteristically un-Patriots-like debacle at the end of the Miami game. They even lost to the damn Steelers, who the Pats own.

Going into KC and winning was awesome, the defense shutting down the Rams offense was awesome, but that playoff run kinda came out of nowhere, and anyone saying otherwise is using revisionist history. A lot of people were predicting they would lose at home to the Chargers in their first playoff game.
That KC win last year was *definitely* one of those games that turned on a couple of plays. The offsides. The 3 3rd and 9 or more conversions in OT.(seriously, how fucking amazing were they) If any go the other way, the Pats probably lose. Obviously if Ford is not offsides, the Patriots do lose.

A lot of these titles are on a hair. Even the Chiefs this year. If Houston doesn't completely fall apart, they should have beaten KC. Up 24-0. And then they just blew up. And, obviously, if SF made a single play over the course of the final 5 minutes, they win, too.

It's unbelievable how thin the line is.
 

Soxy

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Well if not for a stupid once-in-a-generation play by Miami, they would have been 12-4, just like every year basically. And while they lost to five non-playoff teams, the flip side is that they beat every single playoff team on their schedule - both in the regular season and in the post season. So that's pretty impressive. They were a very good team last year. They 100% earned their championship by being better than their opponents. Not luck. Better.
They only played three playoff teams in the regular season, with all of those wins coming in the first seven weeks of the season. Just when it looked like they were putting things together for the stretch run, like the Pats always do, they got blown out in Tennessee and ended up going 4-3 down the stretch. That team looked a lot more like the 2019 Pats did heading into the playoffs than some world beating juggernaut. They were lucky to get a bye.

I'm not sure even the most ardent Pats homer would have thought they would blow out the Chargers, shutout the #1 scoring team in the NFL for a half before trading haymakers with them down the stretch, then hold the #2 scoring offense in the NFL to 3 points in the Super Bowl.

I'm not saying they didn't deserve it or anything like that, but the way it unfolded.... I mean, nobody saw that coming. They turned it on in the playoffs, but I wouldn't put them up there with the best Pats teams. If you ranked the six Pats Super Bowl winning squads from best to worst, I'd put the 2018 team 5th, ahead of the 2001 team, and behind all of the others.
 

BaseballJones

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They only played three playoff teams in the regular season, with all of those wins coming in the first seven weeks of the season. Just when it looked like they were putting things together for the stretch run, like the Pats always do, they got blown out in Tennessee and ended up going 4-3 down the stretch. That team looked a lot more like the 2019 Pats did heading into the playoffs than some world beating juggernaut. They were lucky to get a bye.

I'm not sure even the most ardent Pats homer would have thought they would blow out the Chargers, shutout the #1 scoring team in the NFL for a half before trading haymakers with them down the stretch, then hold the #2 scoring offense in the NFL to 3 points in the Super Bowl.

I'm not saying they didn't deserve it or anything like that, but the way it unfolded.... I mean, nobody saw that coming. They turned it on in the playoffs, but I wouldn't put them up there with the best Pats teams. If you ranked the six Pats Super Bowl winning squads from best to worst, I'd put the 2018 team 5th, ahead of the 2001 team, and behind all of the others.
Oh I agree. Of the six, last year was the second least expected title, IMO, following SB 36. I guess, in order of my expectations that they'd win it all, it was...

2004 - 14-2 season, absolute juggernaut and defending SB champs
2003 - 14-2 season, looked dominant but hadn't yet become a "dynasty"
2016 - 14-2 season, tremendous year in all ways, and rolled through the AFC playoffs
2014 - 12-4 season, were a great team, but I knew Seattle was waiting in the wings and they were GOOD (defending champs)
2018 - 11-5, and for all the reasons you gave, were a bit of a surprise
2001 - 11-5 and came out of nowhere for their first title
 

Soxy

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That KC win last year was *definitely* one of those games that turned on a couple of plays. The offsides. The 3 3rd and 9 or more conversions in OT.(seriously, how fucking amazing were they) If any go the other way, the Pats probably lose. Obviously if Ford is not offsides, the Patriots do lose.

A lot of these titles are on a hair. Even the Chiefs this year. If Houston doesn't completely fall apart, they should have beaten KC. Up 24-0. And then they just blew up. And, obviously, if SF made a single play over the course of the final 5 minutes, they win, too.

It's unbelievable how thin the line is.
They also needed a 7-7 Eagles team, led by old friend Nick Foles, to lead a 2-minute drive for a game winning FG at the gun in week 16 against Houston just to get a bye. They were very close to being in the same spot as this year's Pats team: playing on Wild Card weekend.
 

BaseballJones

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They also needed a 7-7 Eagles team, led by old friend Nick Foles, to lead a 2-minute drive for a game winning FG at the gun in week 16 against Houston just to get a bye. They were very close to being in the same spot as this year's Pats team: playing on Wild Card weekend.
Foles taketh away, and Foles giveth.
 

Dollar

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I wasn't sure whether this belonged here or the TB12 thread, but it's about a Super Bowl win so here should work.

NFL Films made a 51-minute long documentary about the theft of Tom Brady's SB 51 jersey from the winning locker room and everything that took place after it. It's much better than I thought it would be.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I29ZMIOZwX0
 

tims4wins

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I wasn't sure whether this belonged here or the TB12 thread, but it's about a Super Bowl win so here should work.

NFL Films made a 51-minute long documentary about the theft of Tom Brady's SB 51 jersey from the winning locker room and everything that took place after it. It's much better than I thought it would be.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I29ZMIOZwX0
Seconded. Fun, interesting watch.
 

Unin10D

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I wasn't sure whether this belonged here or the TB12 thread, but it's about a Super Bowl win so here should work.

NFL Films made a 51-minute long documentary about the theft of Tom Brady's SB 51 jersey from the winning locker room and everything that took place after it. It's much better than I thought it would be.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I29ZMIOZwX0
Tom Brady has specific jersey requirements that help with performance, because of course he does
 

Mystic Merlin

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And about as many plays are between 6 and zero.

In summary, you’re a really great team that plays in a sport with a one game elimination playoff format!!
 

Euclis20

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It's a good counter for people who claim (not incorrectly) that the Pats were just a few bounces away from winning just 1-2 super bowls. That's how it works when you've built a team that has been a legitimate super bowl contender for nearly 20 years.
 

BuellMiller

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It's a good counter for people who claim (not incorrectly) that the Pats were just a few bounces away from winning just 1-2 super bowls. That's how it works when you've built a team that has been a legitimate super bowl contender for nearly 20 years.
And he probably could have added at least 1 or 2 more without too much of a stretch, and then a couple more with a little bit more of a stretch. I mean, the only seasons since BB took over where the Patriots weren't a handful of plays away from a legitimate shot of winning a SB were 2000, 2002, and 2009.
In 2005, if Asante Samuel doesn't get called for a BS interference in the end zone, and/or the Watson play is called a fumble out of the end zone, the Patriots possibly win that game, get to play a Steelers team that they had usually played well, and then the Seahawks (whether the Pats would have gotten any ref help like the Steelers, open for debate).
In 2008 if Brady doesn't get Pollard-ed, they likely win at least one more game, make the playoffs (2 wins or a win against the Steelers, gets them a bye), and then who knows.
In 2010, if they beat the Jets (let's say Crumpler catches it or Brady doesn't throw that awful int on a screen or Chung doesn't muff the 4th down snap (or doesn't call it in the first place), they get the Steelers next. While January is different from November, the Patriots did beat the Steelers at Heinz during the season pretty convincingly. The Packers would have been a challenge, but at least a coinflip. They had beaten them during the season, but against Flynn not Rodgers and with some help from KR Dan Connolly.
In 2012, the Patriots were shutting down the Ravens until Talib got hurt, and then probably would have done better against the 49ers and Kaep the 2nd time around.
In 2013, who knows what happens if Talib doesn't get Welker-ed (or Gronk doesn't get TJ Ward-ed earlier in the year)? Obviously, the Seahawks played great against an alltime offense in the Broncos, but the Patriots had played them closer in the regular season.

How many other teams can say they had more than 2 or 3 of these since 2000?
 

BaseballJones

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And he probably could have added at least 1 or 2 more without too much of a stretch, and then a couple more with a little bit more of a stretch. I mean, the only seasons since BB took over where the Patriots weren't a handful of plays away from a legitimate shot of winning a SB were 2000, 2002, and 2009.
In 2005, if Asante Samuel doesn't get called for a BS interference in the end zone, and/or the Watson play is called a fumble out of the end zone, the Patriots possibly win that game, get to play a Steelers team that they had usually played well, and then the Seahawks (whether the Pats would have gotten any ref help like the Steelers, open for debate).
In 2008 if Brady doesn't get Pollard-ed, they likely win at least one more game, make the playoffs (2 wins or a win against the Steelers, gets them a bye), and then who knows.
In 2010, if they beat the Jets (let's say Crumpler catches it or Brady doesn't throw that awful int on a screen or Chung doesn't muff the 4th down snap (or doesn't call it in the first place), they get the Steelers next. While January is different from November, the Patriots did beat the Steelers at Heinz during the season pretty convincingly. The Packers would have been a challenge, but at least a coinflip. They had beaten them during the season, but against Flynn not Rodgers and with some help from KR Dan Connolly.
In 2012, the Patriots were shutting down the Ravens until Talib got hurt, and then probably would have done better against the 49ers and Kaep the 2nd time around.
In 2013, who knows what happens if Talib doesn't get Welker-ed (or Gronk doesn't get TJ Ward-ed earlier in the year)? Obviously, the Seahawks played great against an alltime offense in the Broncos, but the Patriots had played them closer in the regular season.

How many other teams can say they had more than 2 or 3 of these since 2000?
Yep.

2005-06 - Could have beaten Denver, Pittsburgh, and Seattle. But losing in Denver is pretty standard.

2006-07 - Lost to Indy in the stupid flu dome let's turn up the indoor temperature and watch the Patriots melt away a 21-3 lead.

2007-08 - The Scottish Game. Enough said.

2008-09 - Brady injured a nanosecond into the season. Not gonna win it that year.

2009-10 - Well, ok, got decimated by the Ravens and the Pats weren't going anywhere that year.

2010-11 - Shocking loss to the Jets. The Pats were the best team in the league that year and Brady was in peak form.

2011-12 - Another loss to the Giants that shouldn't have happened.

2012-13 - Loss to Baltimore in the AFCCG. Got beat soundly. But Talib's injury was huge. And the Pats were driving in the 4th when Pollard had the helmet-to-helmet hit on Ridley, knocking him out and causing the fumble that sealed the game for Baltimore.

2013-14 - Loss to Denver in the AFCCG. Denver was great that year, no shame in losing that. Plus an all-time great Seattle team awaited, but yeah, NE had played them tough in Seattle earlier in the year (that was the dumb Brady grounding penalty late in the first half).

2015-16 - Another loss to Denver in the AFCCG. Should have had HFA and even then, nearly won in Denver. Would have beaten Carolina most likely in the SB.

2017-18 - Shocking loss to Philly. Butler not playing. Everyone knew the Pats were going to drive to win that game until Brady fumbled at the end.

I'd realistically say the Pats very easily could have won 2 more SBs (2007-08 and 2006-07), and it's not remotely a stretch to say that they could have won a total of 4 more (2007-08, 2006-07, 2011-12, and 2017-18). Brady could have 10 rings right now, and it's not at all a crazy thought.
 

Rudy's Curve

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2013-14 - Loss to Denver in the AFCCG. Denver was great that year, no shame in losing that. Plus an all-time great Seattle team awaited, but yeah, NE had played them tough in Seattle earlier in the year (that was the dumb Brady grounding penalty late in the first half).
The Patriots played the Seahawks in 2012, not '13. Given that they were badly outplayed in the AFCCG and the Seahawks destroyed Denver, it's a bit of a stretch to look at that year as a what if.
 

BaseballJones

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The Patriots played the Seahawks in 2012, not '13. Given that they were badly outplayed in the AFCCG and the Seahawks destroyed Denver, it's a bit of a stretch to look at that year as a what if.
I got that year mixed up, yep. But I didn't include it in the four I think they could have won.
 

BigSoxFan

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Re: 2006 AFCCG

How about the bogus OPI on Troy Brown as the Pats were threatening to step on the Colts’ neck?