Cora: Pivetta is going to the bullpen as a multi-inning reliever

soxhop411

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streeter88

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The idea that he won't try his best because before he got sent to the pen he was against it is silly. He obviously wanted to start and wasn't going to answer media questions with "sure, I'll accept a demotion" but has he ever been an attitude problem?
Exactly this. He doesn’t have to like being demoted to the bullpen, but he’s on the team, and he wants to win. If that means being a multi inning reliever for a while, so be it.

Based solely on the recent injury history of the guys in front of him, his stay in the bullpen will likely be short-lived.
 

RIrooter09

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I haven’t been following too closely, but why Pivetta to the ‘pen instead of Kluber? They’ve both sucked but Kluber has been a bit worse.
 

burstnbloom

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The idea that he won't try his best because before he got sent to the pen he was against it is silly. He obviously wanted to start and wasn't going to answer media questions with "sure, I'll accept a demotion" but has he ever been an attitude problem?
You'd like to think that but this is a player who pouted and half assed it when this exact thing happened to him in Philly 4 years ago. There is reason to be worried about his effort level given this player's past.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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I haven’t been following too closely, but why Pivetta to the ‘pen instead of Kluber? They’ve both sucked but Kluber has been a bit worse.
I suspect there's an element of veteran privilege (for lack of a better term). More though, I think there's an expectation that Pivetta's stuff can play up in the pen better than Kluber. Pivetta throws hard already (avg fastball velocity is 94 this year). Kluber barely cracks 90 mph on occasion. You can squint and see the possibility of Pivetta not having to pace himself so much and cranking up to 95-96+ to get guys out. Kluber isn't cranking anything up at this stage of his career.

I think if they decide Kluber is out of the rotation, he'll either go to the IL with some soreness or irritation, or he'll be DFA.
 

RIrooter09

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Yeah I thought about Pivetta’s stuff playing up better. Hopefully Kluber is gone once Whitlock returns.
 

jbupstate

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You'd like to think that but this is a player who pouted and half assed it when this exact thing happened to him in Philly 4 years ago. There is reason to be worried about his effort level given this player's past.
He came out and said he wants to help the team and it’s not about him. At this point in his career, he’s looking to survive. Why would he pout and had ass it when he could just shoot his way out of town?

He has plus stuff that might play better out of the bullpen. Execution of pitches is his problem, not his stuff or his attitude.

Does anyone think he can’t outperform Braiser or Ort?
 

Rovin Romine

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You'd like to think that but this is a player who pouted and half assed it when this exact thing happened to him in Philly 4 years ago. There is reason to be worried about his effort level given this player's past.
People learn.

Let's wait to see if this really is a problem before we start discussing it as though it were.
 

joe dokes

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People learn.

Let's wait to see if this really is a problem before we start discussing it as though it were.
Right. This doesn't come as anything other than a guy saying the same exact thing as 4 years ago, but he's now more mature. This is the 2019 to-the-bullpen story)
Nick Pivetta is not thrilled about bullpen assignment but he’ll suck it up for the team - NBC Sports RSN

And, I'm not sure of the definition of "half-assing it," but he had marginally better stats as a reliever in 2019.
 

jtn46

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I’d rather they just put Houck in the pen, but I think they’re in a tough spot because injuries will probably require someone goes back into the rotation and Pivetta makes the most sense to do that. Once Houck or Whitlock are in the pen that’s it, they’re effectively done as starting pitchers, and I think that will be the case for both of them, Houck’s struggles vs lefties are getting worse, not better and he is really bad second and third times through a lineup and Whitlock doesn’t seem built for it, but I get giving them their shots, they’ve earned it. Kluber DFA could be a move but Whitlock, Sale and Paxton are all pretty fragile, would hate to need a starter in 2 weeks and have Kluber mowing us down as a Ray.
 

TheYellowDart5

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I haven’t been following too closely, but why Pivetta to the ‘pen instead of Kluber? They’ve both sucked but Kluber has been a bit worse.
Kluber has exactly three relief appearances in his major league career; the last one came 10 years ago. This isn't about who's been worse but who's a better fit for the bullpen, and that's clearly Pivetta.
 

ShaneTrot

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I suspect there's an element of veteran privilege (for lack of a better term). More though, I think there's an expectation that Pivetta's stuff can play up in the pen better than Kluber. Pivetta throws hard already (avg fastball velocity is 94 this year). Kluber barely cracks 90 mph on occasion. You can squint and see the possibility of Pivetta not having to pace himself so much and cranking up to 95-96+ to get guys out. Kluber isn't cranking anything up at this stage of his career.

I think if they decide Kluber is out of the rotation, he'll either go to the IL with some soreness or irritation, or he'll be DFA.
Chris Cotillo on his podcast a couple of weeks ago, said that the Sox are going to give Kluber a long leash because it's bad business to sign a veteran that has a good track record and then discard him after two lousy months. I find this a bit annoying because Kluber is not holding up his end, if he is not hurt, then it's highly likely he is toast. I have always liked Pivetta, there is significant value in being available to start but he has been getting destroyed since last June and he has been uncompetitive against the AL East. What are the chances that one of these guys turns it around this year?
 

chawson

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Seems short term. There are at least two multi-inning guys ahead of him (Winck and Crawford) as currently constructed.

There's no way the Sox are going to pick up his arb3 ($6-7 million?) if he's a low-leverage MIRP in 2024. I think he's probably dealt for a Josh Tobias-type in the next month.
 

Green Monster

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So how is it that Pivetta is perceived to have a bad attitude for preferring to start and Whitlock (who has had much success in the bullpen) does not have a bad attitude despite preferring to start?
 

InsideTheParker

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So how is it that Pivetta is perceived to have a bad attitude for preferring to start and Whitlock (who has had much success in the bullpen) does not have a bad attitude despite preferring to start?
Every time Whitlock opens his mouth, when I've heard him, he seems all "whatever the team wants me to do." I actually have never heard him strongly express a preference for starting.
 

nattysez

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SSS I guess, but this does not fill me with optimism about Pivetta as a reliever:

1st inning ERA: 11.25 (5.69 career)
2nd inning and 3rd inning ERA: 3.38 (4.70 and 3.52 career)
4th inning ERA: 10.12 (5.33 career)

Maybe knowing he can go full-out in his first inning of work will make him effective - we'll see.
 

streeter88

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I'm just impressed Cora thinks this guy can get more than 3 outs. 3 might be a stretch judging from this years results.
Isn’t long relief code for putting a warm body in when the game has gotten out of hand? That’s what I think they’re going to use him for until there’s an opening in the rotation again. Pivetta is if nothing else reliably healthy.
 

BaseballJones

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Exactly this. He doesn’t have to like being demoted to the bullpen, but he’s on the team, and he wants to win. If that means being a multi inning reliever for a while, so be it.

Based solely on the recent injury history of the guys in front of him, his stay in the bullpen will likely be short-lived.
Well that and…. If he sucks in this role, he’s likely gone. The best way back to the rotation is to pitch well and wait for your opportunity.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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Isn’t long relief code for putting a warm body in when the game has gotten out of hand? That’s what I think they’re going to use him for until there’s an opening in the rotation again. Pivetta is if nothing else reliably healthy.
I think it was prior to the past few years…. But recent trends will have starters going 4,5 innings more often than not (I know this isn’t breaking news). So having a long relief guy now means a 2-3 inning type that can keep you in a game rather than just prevent your good bullpen arms from being used unnecessarily
 

JM3

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I think it was prior to the past few years…. But recent trends will have starters going 4,5 innings more often than not (I know this isn’t breaking news). So having a long relief guy now means a 2-3 inning type that can keep you in a game rather than just prevent your good bullpen arms from being used unnecessarily
To some extent, yeah. But if he's the 3rd best long relief guy, he's probably not going to get the highest leverage long relief spots.
 

streeter88

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Let's review what we have in Pivetta.
  • 30 year old SP, making $5.3M, last year pre arbitration. He's a less expensive option, but his salary would jump next year with good results - and this also may inform his reluctance to go to the pen.
  • Has pitched to 4.48 FIP or 96 ERA+ in his 2+ years with Boston. Classic 5th starter material.
  • Never made fewer than 30 starts and good for 5+ innings per start on average. He's durable.
But this year...
  • 2023 has started a bit slow with 5.78 FIP, with big jumps in H/9, BB/9 and HR/9.
  • So far, Pivetta is giving up "hard contact" on 51.7% of batted balls so far this season (yikes!)
Here's what MLBTR's Anthony Franco says about his performance so far in 2023:

It has been more of the same for the 30-year-old to this point in 2023. Pivetta has taken all eight turns through the rotation and logged 40 innings of 6.30 ERA ball. While his 23% strikeout rate and 10.7% swinging strike percentage are respectable, he has issued free passes at an elevated 10.4% clip. Pivetta has surrendered nine home runs and given up hard contact on a massive 51.7% of batted balls. He’s perhaps fortunate to have surrendered “only” a .309 batting average on balls in play in light of that contact quality.
https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2023/05/red-sox-move-nick-pivetta-to-bullpen.html

And yet, his recent results are not awful, with the exception of the Atlanta game on May 9th he's been good for 5-6 IP and 3-4 ER per game. And he is 3-2 in those 5 starts. I dunno, kind of looks like an average 2023 Red Sox starter... (ducks)

64946

I wonder what the increased hard contact is due to? Is it the pitch clock? A tell? Or just he isn't as good mediocre as he was last year?
 

streeter88

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And how does one post the data like streeter88 did instead of using a URL link?
I just snipped a screen shot. But there are cleverer people than me who can actually put tables in their posts. Check out this post by @Jman for the syntax...

Broncos 2023 schedule
[TH]Wk[/TH] [TH]Date[/TH] [TH]Opponent[/TH] [TH]Time (MT)[/TH] [TH]TV[/TH]
1 9/10/2023 vs. Las Vegas Raiders 2:25 PM CBS
2 9/17/2023 vs. Washington Commanders 2:25 PM CBS
 

Al Zarilla

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Pivetta last year got black ink for number of games started (33). His ERA+ was 92, FIP 4.42, WHIP 1.38. Those aren't bad numbers for a back of the rotation guy. And, he's always available. Are they pulling the (starter) plug too soon?
 

LogansDad

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Pivetta last year got black ink for number of games started (33). His ERA+ was 92, FIP 4.42, WHIP 1.38. Those aren't bad numbers for a back of the rotation guy. And, he's always available. Are they pulling the (starter) plug too soon?
A month ago, I would have agreed with you, but he has been absolutely dreadful this year. His HR/9 and BB/9 are both way up, his FIP is close to 6 and rising, and his "solid" FIP and ERA numbers from last year are misleading because he was one of the best pitchers in the game from the first week of May until the end of June. Outside of that stretch he has been one of the worst pitchers in the league, and he isn't really showing any signs of catching fire at the moment. his most recent start, one in which he likely knew he was fighting for a rotation spot, he walked 4 guys and let up a home run to Taylor Trammel, a guy with a career .655 OPS.

After his hot streak ended last year, he let up 13 home runs in 66 innings, and his FIP was 5.16, with an OPS against of .827 (basically, the average hitter against him was Rafael Devers).

His hot streak last year was really fun, but he simply isn't a good pitcher.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Pivetta last year got black ink for number of games started (33). His ERA+ was 92, FIP 4.42, WHIP 1.38. Those aren't bad numbers for a back of the rotation guy. And, he's always available. Are they pulling the (starter) plug too soon?
Using the old Billy Beane measure of two months to evaluate (give guys long leashes, let guys try to bust out of slumps), two months to adjust (cut guys, trade guys, demote guys, bring guys up, etc), and two months to run with what you've got, we're getting close to put-up-or-shut-up time with the weak links on the roster. So between that and the plethora of starters on the team, it's not too soon to pull the plug on Pivetta. Especially since he can be plugged right back in if there's a need.
 

TheYellowDart5

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Pivetta is not hard to understand: his command is terrible. That will always be his undoing and is at the heart of all his issues. He can't throw strikes when he needs to and can't consistently put his pitches where they need to go, and he probably never will. It's why the Phillies gave up on him, and why the sum total of his career in Boston will be a few hundred average innings for reasonable money before he gets non-tendered this winter and joins a losing team on the relative cheap. Don't overthink this, folks.
 

AB in DC

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Pivetta is not hard to understand: his command is terrible. That will always be his undoing and is at the heart of all his issues. He can't throw strikes when he needs to and can't consistently put his pitches where they need to go, and he probably never will. It's why the Phillies gave up on him, and why the sum total of his career in Boston will be a few hundred average innings for reasonable money before he gets non-tendered this winter and joins a losing team on the relative cheap. Don't overthink this, folks.
Except for weird stretches when he was just nails (spring 2022, fall 2021). He's a tease.
 

derekson

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Pivetta is not hard to understand: his command is terrible. That will always be his undoing and is at the heart of all his issues. He can't throw strikes when he needs to and can't consistently put his pitches where they need to go, and he probably never will. It's why the Phillies gave up on him, and why the sum total of his career in Boston will be a few hundred average innings for reasonable money before he gets non-tendered this winter and joins a losing team on the relative cheap. Don't overthink this, folks.
Nick Pivetta, 2024 A's ace
 

soxhop411

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Pivetta’s curve is so nasty tonight. It just keeps falling.
I like this version of Pivetta where every appearance is essentially Pedro in game 5 of the 99 ALDS. His K rate as a reliever is insane.
Nick Pivetta has set the Red Sox single-game record for strikeouts in relief (13). Who are the only other sox RP to have 11 K’s in a single game?
Diego Segui had 12 in 7 2/3 innings in 1974, and Dick “The Monster” Radatz had 11 in 8 2/3 innings in 1963.
View: https://twitter.com/alexspeier/status/1681149397978021893?s=46
 
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Harry Hooper

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Diego Segui? Holy crap!

Piveta gets 12 K's to tie the record.

Addendum: He breaks the record with a baker's dozen.
 

Tangled Up In Red

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Stuff like this just makes me feel good.
There are different paths to comfort and success. Hope he can stay on this one.