Jayson Tatum's Rise to the Top

Cellar-Door

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I just don’t think any of what happened tonight was because they weren’t loose enough. I mean, I think an argument could be made that they were too loose and too lackadaisical.

Mazzulla mentioned something similar so I am probably wrong. I just would prefer the mindset to be “we are pissed and we are going to go out and take the next game” (similar to what Smart said). “We need to be more loose!” Just really doesn’t have much of a ring to it after you just got stomped on
I think they got real tight in the sense that they were just bricking easy shots and they let it compound... so starting late 2nd into the 3rd they started playing really good defense, making good plays... then they bricked more 3s, commit a foul and it gets tighter and tighter, more good looks get missed, more lapses on the other end as they get frustrated/down. And certainly Brown shooting 34% from the FT line has all the signs of a guy getting tight and in his own head.

Now I don't know if they came out tight... but I get the idea that at least offensively they played tight and it lead to a lot of shots missed that they normally make.... on defense I don't feel that way, it felt like it often does when they slip, though I guess maybe you could say all the bad decisions were caused by being too tight.
 

Auger34

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I think they got real tight in the sense that they were just bricking easy shots and they let it compound... so starting late 2nd into the 3rd they started playing really good defense, making good plays... then they bricked more 3s, commit a foul and it gets tighter and tighter, more good looks get missed, more lapses on the other end as they get frustrated/down. And certainly Brown shooting 34% from the FT line has all the signs of a guy getting tight and in his own head.

Now I don't know if they came out tight... but I get the idea that at least offensively they played tight and it lead to a lot of shots missed that they normally make.... on defense I don't feel that way, it felt like it often does when they slip, though I guess maybe you could say all the bad decisions were caused by being too tight.
That’s entirely possible and honestly I have 0 idea. Both him and Mazzzulla said something along the same lines and they would know way better than me.

Let’s just hope they don’t play tight in Game 6 (which seems like a time they actually should be tight, when they are on the road and facing elimination. Would think you’d play loose at home and with the series tied)
 

Euclis20

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That’s entirely possible and honestly I have 0 idea. Both him and Mazzzulla said something along the same lines and they would know way better than me.

Let’s just hope they don’t play tight in Game 6 (which seems like a time they actually should be tight, when they are on the road and facing elimination. Would think you’d play loose at home and with the series tied)
Hard to say how this really works. The series odds coming into today were identical to the odds heading into game 1, with Boston -310 to advance. Thursday will be the first time they are legit underdogs, maybe that frees them up a bit.
 

reggiecleveland

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Put slight differently, he is, at worst, the best Celtic since Bird's arrival. Pierce is the only other name in the conversation, and it is a legit point in Pierce's favor that he won a championship. But he won it in his 10th year, at age 30, after Ainge added 2 HoFers to the roster, while Tatum is 25, in his 6th year, and doesn't have Garnett and Allen (or McHale and Parish for that matter).
He's better than Ray Allen, KG, Reggie?
What is he at worst? You would really rather have Tatum now than Pierce at his peak?
Some of this is on the coach. I mean I can see what the Sixers are trying to do. today they had Maxxy bring it up and let Harden catch it and play 2 man game on the wing with Embid, this was change. I mean they have to have something they can run to get Tatum going. They don't run any sets in crunch time, maybe do something off the bat.
 

Devizier

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Tatum is absolutely too tight in this series. He’s bricking shots left and right, which is coincidentally part of what saw the Celtics wash out in the finals last year. I think his quote is fine, the last thing we need is Kobe brain in this guy.
 

Eddie Jurak

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I was too young for 80s Bird but people seem to remember the miss at the end of 1987 Game 4 quite well.
We remember the shot because Bird missed it. We don't remember Bird as the guy who bricked was ever so slightly long on that shot.
If tenure/longevity is out of consideration, KG is my #1 since Bird.

Edit: I just don't think JT is wired like the greats, who have all been compete psychos (except for LeBron). That is probably good for his long-term mental health (see Barkley, Charles), but it doesn't get me all fired up for the Celtics chances in the near future. Every "great" I've ever seen errs on the side of hero ball...they NEED to have the rock. They are angry. They have a chip on their shoulder. Deep down, they hate everyone and everything except winning. I see the exact opposite from Tatum.

Again, I really do hope I'm wrong here.
I think it remains to be seen how JT is wired.
He's better than Ray Allen, KG, Reggie?

What is he at worst? You would really rather have Tatum now than Pierce at his peak?
KG had an obviously better career, but Boston had a pretty small slice of KG at his very best. Basically 2008 to the 2009 injury.

As to Pierce, he ended his 7th season as a 27-year old player who had won only 3 of 7 playoff series, including his only appearance in the ECF. He was coming off a first round loss to the Pacers in which he came out for postgame interviews with a fake bandage on his neck.

Tatum is ahead of Pierce if you look by age or by number of years in the league.
 

mikeford

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Not that I love getting into what defines a superstar, but Grant Hill is the only Duke player in the NBA hall of fame. Tatum is already the second best Duke player of all time, regarding NBA performance. Not exactly a long history of superstars underachieving when it counts, more like the school's reputation for producing NBA greatness is simply way overstated.
noted anti-semite Kyrie Irving is probably #2 behind Hill, if we're honest.
 

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Look at quotes from Curry, LeBron. Etc. after tough losses. They basically say the same thing…need to play better/loose, not over yet, we’ll see….

This generation of NBA stars are media savvy and tend not to say anything that is going to make headlines. The days of Bird saying that his team played like a bunch of sissies are gone.

I have long ago accepted that the NBA has changed, just like it was different when I was a kid in the 80s from the game in the 50s/60s.

That includes the effect of coaching on team/season, which has been on a consistent decline since the 50s/60s. A different coach is not going to change anything. It’s the players.

I continue to believe that the “peak performance” of this team was late last year with healthy RWill. He was all over the place on defense, which allowed the other players to take chances, press and go after rebounds. On offense, his mobility and leaping allowed for better spacing, passing and PnR actions. Since his injury, the defense, rebounding and offense action are not the same.
 

BigSoxFan

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7-31 from downtown last 4 games. To his credit, he’s contributing in other ways but we simply can’t afford shooting like this from him. Tatum needs to figure out a way to get going early because these slow starts are really hurting the team.
 

Mooch

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Tatum is absolutely too tight in this series. He’s bricking shots left and right, which is coincidentally part of what saw the Celtics wash out in the finals last year. I think his quote is fine, the last thing we need is Kobe brain in this guy.
I think the Kobe thing is WAY overblown in the Port Cellar.

Take Kevin Durant in this series with the Nuggets. He's shooting 45% from the floor (same as Tatum) and a jaw-dropping 22% from three. Sometimes great players run cold. It happens.
 

lars10

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Look at quotes from Curry, LeBron. Etc. after tough losses. They basically say the same thing…need to play better/loose, not over yet, we’ll see….

This generation of NBA stars are media savvy and tend not to say anything that is going to make headlines. The days of Bird saying that his team played like a bunch of sissies are gone.

I have long ago accepted that the NBA has changed, just like it was different when I was a kid in the 80s from the game in the 50s/60s.

That includes the effect of coaching on team/season, which has been on a consistent decline since the 50s/60s. A different coach is not going to change anything. It’s the players.

I continue to believe that the “peak performance” of this team was late last year with healthy RWill. He was all over the place on defense, which allowed the other players to take chances, press and go after rebounds. On offense, his mobility and leaping allowed for better spacing, passing and PnR actions. Since his injury, the defense, rebounding and offense action are not the same.
Smart was also a lot better last year..at least on defense
 

Ed Hillel

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Quotes don't matter, performances do. Brogdon gave a nice rah rah quote yesterday and then played like dogshit. Tatum's quote was fine, his performance yesterday was fine, but half the team was utter dogshit and left him literally zero margin for error.
 

Auger34

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7-31 from downtown last 4 games. To his credit, he’s contributing in other ways but we simply can’t afford shooting like this from him. Tatum needs to figure out a way to get going early because these slow starts are really hurting the team.
100%.

The slow starts are really putting them in a hole. And, in todays NBA, the best way to get out of a hole or fight a slow start is to make 3’s…unfortunately he (and the rest of the team) have been ice cold from distance.
They managed to claw their way back one time but yesterday it was just too much. I think Smart and Brown have both been good but Brogdon/Grant/Horford/White and TimeLord really need to step it up
 

reggiecleveland

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Tatum is ahead of Pierce if you look by age or by number of years in the league.
This is the constant drumbeat about Tatum. He came into the league younger than Bird or Pierce. Since this is baseball site, and baseball is a closed sport, each play with a beginning and end, stats are a much better way of comparing than hoops. Not long ago on this site and elsewhere "Jason Tatum is the only Celtic to ______________ at this age" (many of these memes etc like to throw in steals or blocks stats that were not recorded in the past to eliminate past greats from lists) was used as flimsy reasons to absurdly say he was better than Bird. I am sure almost any NBA team can do the same thing with their young star. Trae Young has done more at this age than Nique, Luka has done more than Nash or Kid, etc. It is the nature of the game, players play at elite levels younger and more ready to play.

So Tatum's stats do not place him next to only Bird. Tatum is a very good player, but he is in a strata far below Bird, Hondo, McHale, Cowens.

Tatum is another tier with Pierce, Jojo White, Rondo, Reggie Lewis, (KG, Ray, were much better but only for a short time) and it is not clear he is better than any of them, Jojo had some epic runs through the playoffs. There reaches a point (now for example) that a guy must do more than put up numbers, he needs to play well when it matters and win.

FWIW I was not a big fan of Pierce going down like he was dead then returning moments later. But, Pierce was a fierce competitor and got the absolute most out of his talent.
 

Auger34

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So Tatum's stats do not place him next to only Bird. Tatum is a very good player, but he is in a strata far below Bird, Hondo, McHale, Cowens.

Tatum is another tier with Pierce, Jojo White, Rondo, Reggie Lewis, (KG, Ray, were much better but only for a short time) and it is not clear he is better than any of them, Jojo had some epic runs through the playoffs. There reaches a point (now for example) that a guy must do more than put up numbers, he needs to play well when it matters and win.
You think Ray Allen was better than Tatum? I’m not going to argue Bird and KG, those guys are top 30 players ever. That’s a whole different strata…

But I don’t think Ray Allen’s peak is better than what Tatum has done the last two years.

This is incredibly quick and dirty but Allen’s best MVP finish was 9th and he never made 1st Team All NBA (he made second and third team once a piece)
 

Eddie Jurak

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This is the constant drumbeat about Tatum. He came into the league younger than Bird or Pierce.
You are not being fair here. Yes, I said Tatum is younger, but if you don't want to credit that, look at NBA experience instead.

This is Tatum's 6th year. Pierce won in his 10th. He kind of embarassed himself after a first round loss in his seventh year, after which Danny Ainge shopped him, unsuccessfully, to try to draft Chris Paul. He had, arguably, his best statistical season in his 8th year on a Celtic team that missed the playoffs.

Tatum is another tier with Pierce, Jojo White, Rondo, Reggie Lewis, (KG, Ray, were much better but only for a short time) and it is not clear he is better than any of them, Jojo had some epic runs through the playoffs. There reaches a point (now for example) that a guy must do more than put up numbers, he needs to play well when it matters and win.
I said Tatum was the best since Bird (not 'second only to' Bird). I don't think Reggie's 6 seasons compare favorably to Tatum's. Jojo preceded Bird. Allen and KG were short timers, and I don't think Rondo is/was anywhere near Tatum's level.
 

jezza1918

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This is the constant drumbeat about Tatum. He came into the league younger than Bird or Pierce. Since this is baseball site, and baseball is a closed sport, each play with a beginning and end, stats are a much better way of comparing than hoops. Not long ago on this site and elsewhere "Jason Tatum is the only Celtic to ______________ at this age" (many of these memes etc like to throw in steals or blocks stats that were not recorded in the past to eliminate past greats from lists) was used as flimsy reasons to absurdly say he was better than Bird. I am sure almost any NBA team can do the same thing with their young star. Trae Young has done more at this age than Nique, Luka has done more than Nash or Kid, etc. It is the nature of the game, players play at elite levels younger and more ready to play.

So Tatum's stats do not place him next to only Bird. Tatum is a very good player, but he is in a strata far below Bird, Hondo, McHale, Cowens.

Tatum is another tier with Pierce, Jojo White, Rondo, Reggie Lewis, (KG, Ray, were much better but only for a short time) and it is not clear he is better than any of them, Jojo had some epic runs through the playoffs. There reaches a point (now for example) that a guy must do more than put up numbers, he needs to play well when it matters and win.

FWIW I was not a big fan of Pierce going down like he was dead then returning moments later. But, Pierce was a fierce competitor and got the absolute most out of his talent.
It's tough to compare eras and all that, but I think it's worth noting that Pierce finished top 10 in mvp voting once in his career (7th. at age 31 in his 11th year in the league). Tatum has already finished 6th & 4th. I think Tatum is on track to have a better career than the guys in the tier you mentioned. Pierce made all nba 3rd team 3x, 2nd team 1x. Tatum now one 3rd team and one 1st team.
Totally agree with the bolded, by the way. I just think that window is just starting to open now for him as an individual, and barring injury is likely open for another 6-7 years since we are likely 3ish years away from his peak.
 

Auger34

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It's tough to compare eras and all that, but I think it's worth noting that Pierce finished top 10 in mvp voting once in his career (7th. at age 31 in his 11th year in the league). Tatum has already finished 6th & 4th. I think Tatum is on track to have a better career than the guys in the tier you mentioned. Pierce made all nba 3rd team 3x, 2nd team 1x. Tatum now one 3rd team and one 1st team.
Totally agree with the bolded, by the way. I just think that window is just starting to open now for him as an individual, and barring injury is likely open for another 6-7 years since we are likely 3ish years away from his peak.
It’s going to be 2 1st teams after this year. I don’t think there’s any doubt he makes 1st team
 

JakeRae

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This is the constant drumbeat about Tatum. He came into the league younger than Bird or Pierce. Since this is baseball site, and baseball is a closed sport, each play with a beginning and end, stats are a much better way of comparing than hoops. Not long ago on this site and elsewhere "Jason Tatum is the only Celtic to ______________ at this age" (many of these memes etc like to throw in steals or blocks stats that were not recorded in the past to eliminate past greats from lists) was used as flimsy reasons to absurdly say he was better than Bird. I am sure almost any NBA team can do the same thing with their young star. Trae Young has done more at this age than Nique, Luka has done more than Nash or Kid, etc. It is the nature of the game, players play at elite levels younger and more ready to play.

So Tatum's stats do not place him next to only Bird. Tatum is a very good player, but he is in a strata far below Bird, Hondo, McHale, Cowens.

Tatum is another tier with Pierce, Jojo White, Rondo, Reggie Lewis, (KG, Ray, were much better but only for a short time) and it is not clear he is better than any of them, Jojo had some epic runs through the playoffs. There reaches a point (now for example) that a guy must do more than put up numbers, he needs to play well when it matters and win.

FWIW I was not a big fan of Pierce going down like he was dead then returning moments later. But, Pierce was a fierce competitor and got the absolute most out of his talent.
I don’t think Darko is a perfect tool for this, but it’s the best one out there. I can’t go back and look at the earlier generation greats as it doesn’t go back that far, but here’s a few charts comparing Tatum’s career trajectory against KG, Pierce, Ray Allen, and Rondo. I think including Rondo is silly, but the charts just highlight that. I’ve done these both by games and age, in that order.

Two things are clear. The first is that KG was much better than Pierce or Allen, surprising no one. The second is that Tatum is, at a minimum, a meaningfully better player than Pierce or Ray were at the same level of NBA experience. By age, he’s on a trajectory that more or less matches KG.

I’m not showing it here, but if you do the same thing with Lebron, Durant, and Curry you’ll see that Tatum is behind the first two by games, but on a similar trajectory to Steph. By age, he and Durant look very similar with Steph trailing behind (shouldn’t be a surprise) and Lebron clearly ahead. In short, Tatum is unlikely to be in a GOAT conversation 10 years from now but his early career compares favorably to pretty much any other level of player, which is backed up by things like MVP and All NBA voting.

64581

64582
 

reggiecleveland

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I would expect the players whose early years match up better are more frequent with the recent changes in players being more NBA ready at younger ages, and the turn away from physical play that really hurt younger guys.

To be clear Pierce was just a borderline all-star in my opinion, but he had the thing Tatum seems to lack, the fire and confidence to exceed his abilities.

I expect Tatum will have a better career than Pierce, but Pierce played on terrible teams with some bad coaches. But, looking at the finals last year and this last week I would take 2008 Pierce in s must-win game over current Tatum.

I think Tatum needs a different coach or (shudder) a different team to be successful. He needs guys, and a system dedicated to getting him the ball. Something is wrong, and I think it is more likely the coach than Tatum.
 

slamminsammya

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I would expect the players whose early years match up better are more frequent with the recent changes in players being more NBA ready at younger ages, and the turn away from physical play that really hurt younger guys.

To be clear Pierce was just a borderline all-star in my opinion, but he had the thing Tatum seems to lack, the fire and confidence to exceed his abilities.

I expect Tatum will have a better career than Pierce, but Pierce played on terrible teams with some bad coaches. But, looking at the finals last year and this last week I would take 2008 Pierce in s must-win game over current Tatum.

I think Tatum needs a different coach or (shudder) a different team to be successful. He needs guys, and a system dedicated to getting him the ball. Something is wrong, and I think it is more likely the coach than Tatum.
In 2008 pierce had his legendary game 7 against lebron. But in the game 6? 16 points on 15 shots and 6 turnovers.

How do we forget.so quickly what Tatum did down 3-2 on the road in Milwaukee last year?
 

MannyRam

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In 2008 pierce had his legendary game 7 against lebron. But in the game 6? 16 points on 15 shots and 6 turnovers.

How do we forget.so quickly what Tatum did down 3-2 on the road in Milwaukee last year?
Think we're going to need another epic performance. Philly is going to be a mad house tomorrow night and they smell blood in the water.
 

Reverend

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If tenure/longevity is out of consideration, KG is my #1 since Bird.

Edit: I just don't think JT is wired like the greats, who have all been compete psychos (except for LeBron). That is probably good for his long-term mental health (see Barkley, Charles), but it doesn't get me all fired up for the Celtics chances in the near future. Every "great" I've ever seen errs on the side of hero ball...they NEED to have the rock. They are angry. They have a chip on their shoulder. Deep down, they hate everyone and everything except winning. I see the exact opposite from Tatum.

Again, I really do hope I'm wrong here.
It’s not out of the question that Deuce is the worst thing to ever happen to Tatum’s future basketball legacy.

eek.
 

reggiecleveland

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That is maybe the most =impressive performance I have seen from JT. He was tentative and shooting terribly, but made the shots when it mattered.

It is not about stats it is about making the plays to win, and he did what had to be done.
 

jezza1918

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I don’t know how to reconcile my feelings on Tatum right now. He was so so awful for the first 3 quarters, and he knows was the main reason the game wasn’t a route heading into the 4th. I was this close to basically giving in and agreeing with the naysayers he will never be The Man. To be able to shake that off and close out the game the way he did, on the road, says a lot about how mentally tough he is. And how I am…well, not.
 

reggiecleveland

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I don’t know how to reconcile my feelings on Tatum right now. He was so so awful for the first 3 quarters, and he knows was the main reason the game wasn’t a route heading into the 4th. I was this close to basically giving in and agreeing with the naysayers he will never be The Man. To be able to shake that off and close out the game the way he did, on the road, says a lot about how mentally tough he is. And how I am…well, not.
Don't overthink
They won
He made plays to win it.
This is better than having forty and missed five in a row at the end and losing.
 

Euclis20

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Tatum was 5 minutes away from basically being labelled a choker, something he likely wouldn't have shook off until he won a title. Here's hoping he's about to go one a 3 point heater. I'm a big fan of his all around game, but at his core he's a scorer, one of the best in the league. It'd be nice for him to finally go off in game 7.
 

RorschachsMask

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Tatum’s crunch time numbers in these playoffs, after tonight

32 minutes
29/6/3 on a 76% TS, 9-16 from the field, 6-10 from deep, and 0 turnovers.
 

NJ_Sox_Fan

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I spent a lot of time at the game hating Tatum, but the 2 minutes I spent loving him were well worth it.
 

RorschachsMask

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Is there a difference between how crunch is defined compared to clutch stats on nba.com?
I believe it’s within 5 points in the last 5 minutes. Nba.com hasn’t updated to include tonight’s game yet, but I came across someone on Twitter who did the math lol.

I use nba.com, I just said crunch instead of clutch lol. It might be 26 points not 29 though, lead was 8 when he hit the last one.
 
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Eddie Jurak

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That is maybe the most =impressive performance I have seen from JT. He was tentative and shooting terribly, but made the shots when it mattered.

It is not about stats it is about making the plays to win, and he did what had to be done.
He did a similar but less extreme thing in game 3. He wasn't as bad for as long as he was in this one, and then he only hit 2 shots versus 4, but the pattern was similar.
I don’t know how to reconcile my feelings on Tatum right now. He was so so awful for the first 3 quarters, and he knows was the main reason the game wasn’t a route heading into the 4th. I was this close to basically giving in and agreeing with the naysayers he will never be The Man. To be able to shake that off and close out the game the way he did, on the road, says a lot about how mentally tough he is. And how I am…well, not.
I thought he looked OK early in this game (was producing secondary stats while not scoring) but started pressing and playing worse in the third quarter before catching fire late in the 4th.
  • Q1: 1 point on 0-5 shooting, 4 rebounds, 4 assists, 1 block, 0 turnovers
  • Q2: 0 points on 0-5 shooting, 3 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 block, 1 turnover
  • Q3: 2 points on 1-3 shooting, 0 rebounds, 0 assists, 0 blocks, 1 steal, 2 turnovers
  • Q4: 16 points on 4-8 shooting, 2 rebounds, 0 assists, 0 blocks, 1 steal, 1 turnover
12 of his 4th quarter points were part of the last 14 points the Celtics scored, starting with just over 4 minutes left, on the 14-3 run that took them from 2 points down to winning by 9.
 

kfoss99

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I caught a few minutes of the Big Jab, Portland, ME's local sports radio morning show. They were all in a tizzy that Tatum said he was "Humbly, one of the greatest basketball players in the world."

I know sports radio is indistinguishably less conservative than conservative talk radio. But it's the truth, Tatum is one of the greatest basketball players in the world. He closed that game out in a way very few could.
 

NomarsFool

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He was just named to first team All-NBA. He is inarguably, one of the best basketball players on earth. Some people think he's not top 5, sure, but I doubt there are even few who would say he's not top 10.