NFL Officiating: Zebras gone wild

StuckOnYouk · Feb 13, 2023

I hate that they have changed what most people consider a catch.
The Sanders catch and fumble for a TD isnt a catch in todays game. But in the 80s when I started watching it most definitely would have been.
He caught the ball and then turned toward his defender who smoked him. No, he didn’t take steps but who cares.

Justthetippett · Feb 13, 2023

BaseballJones said:
I mean, he clearly grabbed him. But (1) it was for just a moment, (2) didn’t really impede JuJu at all, and (3) that kind of contact was something they let go all game long - including, you may all remember, on a key third down in the first half when JuJu was held much worse and they didn’t call Philly for it and it led to an incompletion. Someone said it above - it’s just consistency that fans (and players especially) are looking for. In basketball you let a certain amount of contact go all game long, and that’s how players are going to play. Then in the last few seconds you call a touch foul that you haven’t even thought about calling all game long? Of course it’s not ok. Same thing here. They literally let ALL that go all game long (I just gave an egregious example of it) and it let the players know that THIS is how they will be allowed to play, that THIS is how the game will be officiated. So that’s how they play. Then to have it called in that spot, with that minimal amount of contact (much worse ones were not called)? Yeah, they’ve got a right to be upset.

I’m just grateful that this didn’t involve the Pats either way. If it went against the Pats, I’d be SO upset. If it went for the Pats, I wouldn’t want to endure the “the Pats and Brady get ALL the calls” crap.

I think fundamentally, in whatever sport at whatever level, we don't want refs to determine the outcome of games. That's easier said than done, as non-calls can be as impactful as calls and players can't help themselves from breaking the rules, but if it's close and the call would 100% determine the outcome as it did here, the ref should not have asserted himself into the action. Stay out of it and let the players determine who wins. It's where we get beyond technical nuances and capacity to see the right call to real judgment and management of difficult situations. I would rather have refs with the latter skill every time.

Ed Hillel · Feb 13, 2023

I said this in another thread, but like is like an NBA official calling 3 seconds for the first time in an NBA game on its seemingly last possession of a one-possession game when the player is in the paint for 3.2 seconds. You know it’s happened dozens of other times that game, all of a sudden it’s deciding the game.

Jungleland · Feb 13, 2023

In a game where the refs have swallowed their whistles for 58 minutes, the standard for calling anything but a blatant penalty at that point should be whether the act fundamentally altered the outcome of the play. The jersey tug may have been a hold by the book, but you can’t call something that minor for the first time all game when it literally decides the game and when the pass still would have been incomplete without it.

I don’t think the NFL is rigged, but I also don’t think Hurts and Smith get that call in that spot. Jokes on the NFL - give the Eagles the ball down 3 with 90 seconds and a time out and short of a quick 4 and out they were pretty much guaranteed a classic ending regardless of which team won at that point.

Devizier · Feb 13, 2023

@CFB_Rules would know better than me, but could it be that the ref just choked in a high pressure situation? It doesn’t take much to get the flag out and once it’s on the field it’s rare for a call to be unmade.

Pablo's TB Lover · Feb 13, 2023

Humans are really bad at determining severity of fouls and intent in the moment. Theoretically in baseball you could digitize all calls with the exception of obstruction and runner out of baseline type calls. But football by its nature is always going to have over-officious jerks. Even if we picked up Belichick's standard of making every call reviewable, this is one where there was no "indisputable proof" that the defender did NOT grab the receiver. It just sucks that the equivalent of a borderline balk to bring in the winning run was called in that situation.

HomeRunBaker · Feb 13, 2023

So refs get crushed for:
Missing calls.
Making the correct call but too late in the game.
Fixing the game for team A.
Fixing the game for team B.
Following NFL script.

Damn, it’s surprising we even have refs to take these jobs lol.

BaseballJones · Feb 13, 2023

You know what refs don’t get crushed for? Being consistent. All the players want is consistency. At the end of the day that’s all we as fans really want (well we want every call to be in our team’s favor, let’s be honest).

They let that kind of hand checking contact go literally all game long, allowing even much worse. Then at that moment, all of a sudden to call it? That’s not good officiating.

CoffeeNerdness · Feb 13, 2023

Can we get some examples of players getting away with these penalties all game? I didn't see any blatantly missed calls on replays and people are talking like it was a 60-minute wrestling match out there.

lexrageorge · Feb 13, 2023

Officials have made far worse mistakes than the holding call. The non-call of the pass interference in the Rams/Saints NFCCG was far worse. The consistent screwing up of replay reviews is far more irritating, as was their gifting of the Chiefs with random free plays against the Bengals 2 weeks ago.

The official does have to make the call based on what he sees, and likely thought he saw significant impedance in the contact and jersey grab. It was a hold as per the NFL's rules, under which defensive holds are too easily called as per the rulebook and points of emphasis; thank Poilan and the Dolts for that.

Fans have the right to be irritated because of the context of the situation and the relatively minor amount of contact/holding. But had the official let it go, the Chiefs would also have a legit complaint had such a non-call resulted in an Eagles win.

Harry Hooper · Feb 13, 2023

It's possible the slippery field played into the official's decision to throw the flag, as in the WR didn't show the usual burst on the break suggesting he had been impeded more than actually occurred.

BaseballJones · Feb 13, 2023

CoffeeNerdness said:
Can we get some examples of players getting away with these penalties all game? I didn't see any blatantly missed calls on replays and people are talking like it was a 60-minute wrestling match out there.

I mentioned one earlier. I am in the car so I can’t exactly look at all up right now. But in the first half the Eagles held juju pretty blatantly on a big third down and the ball fell incomplete but even Olsen was like wow OK he got away with one there. Now granted that one favored the Eagles to but the point is that there were more egregious instances that were let go, and that set the tone for what degree of contact the refs going to allow them to get away with during the game. You can’t allow them to get away with that and have the players adjust to that and then at the very end of the game suddenly make that much more ticky tack call.

Dave Stapleton · Feb 13, 2023

Great point by Rob Ninkovich on ESPN this am. A DB should know better than to wear black gloves when the other team is wearing white. Seems like another of the "little things" the Pats focused on.

tims4wins · Feb 13, 2023

Dave Stapleton said:
Great point by Rob Ninkovich on ESPN this am. A DB should know better than to wear black gloves when the other team is wearing white. Seems like another of the "little things" the Pats focused on.

That is fascinating. Thanks for sharing.

EvilEmpire · Feb 13, 2023

Dave Stapleton said:
Great point by Rob Ninkovich on ESPN this am. A DB should know better than to wear black gloves when the other team is wearing white. Seems like another of the "little things" the Pats focused on.

Yeah, that really is a great point.

The ref clearly saw a handful of jersey and (obviously) that doesn't always happen. Part of a DBs job is to make it a little harder for the ref to easily see stuff like that.

BaseballJones said:
I mentioned one earlier. I am in the car so I can’t exactly look at all up right now. But in the first half the Eagles held juju pretty blatantly on a big third down and the ball fell incomplete but even Olsen was like wow OK he got away with one there. Now granted that one favored the Eagles to but the point is that there were more egregious instances that were let go, and that set the tone for what degree of contact the refs going to allow them to get away with during the game. You can’t allow them to get away with that and have the players adjust to that and then at the very end of the game suddenly make that much more ticky tack call.

I'm pretty sure that was Bradberry too. I think the refs aren't always in a position to see stuff clearly, but when they are, I'm not going to complain with they call it. Do the best you can. Letting the same DB get away with holding/PI twice just because sucks in a different way.

BaseballJones · Feb 13, 2023

I don’t think it was “just because”. I thought it was because in a championship game they probably had made a decision to “let them play” a little more than usual. But I don’t really know what they were thinking.

Justthetippett · Feb 13, 2023

Dave Stapleton said:
Great point by Rob Ninkovich on ESPN this am. A DB should know better than to wear black gloves when the other team is wearing white. Seems like another of the "little things" the Pats focused on.

Somebody get Ted Wells on the phone. We've got some work for him.

EvilEmpire · Feb 13, 2023

I just doubt a decision was made to "let them play" and it is more likely that a ref didn't get a good look in the first situation but did in the second one.
At least as far as the contact goes.

That's it.

Kenny F'ing Powers · Feb 13, 2023

Everyone wants the refs to swallow the whistle in the end of a SB game on holding calls? I still get night sweats from the amount of holds on the helmet catch.

I dont care when they call the penalty, as long as its a penalty.

Comfortably Lomb · Feb 13, 2023

Kenny F'ing Powers said:
Everyone wants the refs to swallow the whistle in the end of a SB game on holding calls? I still get night sweats from the amount of holds on the helmet catch.

I think what people are really zeroing in on is that call was inconsistent with how the game was called to that point. Mixed with some frustration with holding basically being a penalty the refs can arbitrarily call or not whenever they feel like it in general.

Van Everyman · Feb 13, 2023

One of my big problems with this league is that they are completely untrustworthy as neutral arbiters of the game. So when they exert more control over the officiating behind the scenes, as they have been since Blandino was the head (and partying on buses with Jerry Jones), I’m just completely suspect.

For instance, that bizarre extended delay after the big Goedert catch because the refs didn’t allow the defense to make a substitution or whatever was super weird, especially for a Super Bowl. The fact that it gave the Chiefs a ton of time to review and eventually challenge a close play seemed more than a little fishy to me.

Were they intentionally giving the Chiefs extra time to review a play they didn’t seem they were going to challenge in real time? Maybe that’s stretching things too far. But it seems hard to argue that the league is bending over backwards to promote Mahomes as the face of the league – and combined with its totally weird and inappropriate application of a new catch rule for the upcoming season in the middle of Super Bowl 52, it’s hard to see these “expedited reviews” as anything other than just another way for the league to have more control and less transparency over its officiating.

No wonder Roger thinks it's better than it's ever been.

Kenny F'ing Powers · Feb 13, 2023

Comfortably Lomb said:
I think what people are really zeroing in on is that call was inconsistent with how the game was called to that point. Mixed with some frustration with holding basically being a penalty the refs can arbitrarily call or not whenever they feel like it in general.

Well, a few people absolutely said they wanted the whistles swallowed.

But addressing the other point, I do see people asking for consistency. I'll be honest, I wasn't very tuned in on the game. People keep saying they didn't call that hold all game, but is that true? Thats become one of those statements - "they let it go all game!" - that people just state as factual but don't actually have any idea.

Again, I only had the game on in the background, so...did they actually let it go all game? If someone says that, then I assume it wasn't just a few missed holds - which is easy to miss - but was a very handsy game for 58 minutes. If it wasn't handsy and physical all game, then people blanketing their assertion with "they let it go all game!" feels disingenuous and a way to validate their view without having to be held accountable to prove it.

TroyOLeary · Feb 13, 2023

Kenny F'ing Powers said:
Well, a few people absolutely said they wanted the whistles swallowed.

But addressing the other point, I do see people asking for consistency. I'll be honest, I wasn't very tuned in on the game. People keep saying they didn't call that hold all game, but is that true? Thats become one of those statements - "they let it go all game!" - that people just state as factual but don't actually have any idea.

Again, I only had the game on in the background, so...did they actually let it go all game? If someone says that, then I assume it wasn't just a few missed holds - which is easy to miss - but was a very handsy game for 58 minutes. If it wasn't handsy and physical all game, then people blanketing their assertion with "they let it go all game!" feels disingenuous and a way to validate their view without having to be held accountable to prove it.

It was the first holding call of the game on either side. They called 10 penalties, 9 accepted.

Philly penalties:
Offensive PI
Hands to the Face
False Start
Delay of Game
Offside
Defensive Holding

KC Penalties:
Offside
Encroachment
False Start
Offside (Declined)

Bowser · Feb 13, 2023

Perhaps this point has been made already, but the hold impeded the WR's horizontal progress (toward the sideline) rather than his vertical progress. And the ball was pretty well over thrown. It absolutely was a hold, but arguably it did not impact the outcome of the play. Tough to see that call made there.

Edit: Eh, maybe this is a dumb point.

Kenny F'ing Powers · Feb 13, 2023

TroyOLeary said:
It was the first holding call of the game on either side. They called 10 penalties, 9 accepted.

Philly penalties:
Offensive PI
Hands to the Face
False Start
Delay of Game
Offside
Defensive Holding

KC Penalties:
Offside
Encroachment
False Start
Offside (Declined)

Sure, but what if the secondaries were prepped for two weeks on giving space and not being physical? Not calling penalties in the secondary isn't proof in and of itself that the refs let it go all game.

I mean, the few times I was paying attention, there seemed to be a LOT of open receivers and very little physical contact in the secondary. AJ Browns long TD came through 2 defensive backs that did everything in their power to avoid both him and the ball.

j44thor · Feb 13, 2023

Kenny F'ing Powers said:
Well, a few people absolutely said they wanted the whistles swallowed.

But addressing the other point, I do see people asking for consistency. I'll be honest, I wasn't very tuned in on the game. People keep saying they didn't call that hold all game, but is that true? Thats become one of those statements - "they let it go all game!" - that people just state as factual but don't actually have any idea.

Again, I only had the game on in the background, so...did they actually let it go all game? If someone says that, then I assume it wasn't just a few missed holds - which is easy to miss - but was a very handsy game for 58 minutes. If it wasn't handsy and physical all game, then people blanketing their assertion with "they let it go all game!" feels disingenuous and a way to validate their view without having to be held accountable to prove it.

Without the All-22 it is nearly impossible to see plays that weren't called during the game, especially since the last thing they want networks doing is criticizing the refs. It is entirely possible that was the first and only legit DB holding all game but I find it rather hard to believe the 31st ranked KC secondary gave PHI as much trouble as it did in the 2nd half vs. an elite mobile QB. I have zero evidence but I'd be willing to bet the all-22 will show more than a few grabs that went uncalled.

Bowhemian · Feb 13, 2023

Bowser said:
Perhaps this point has been made already, but the hold impeded the WR's horizontal progress (toward the sideline) rather than his vertical progress. And the ball was pretty well over thrown. It absolutely was a hold, but arguably it did not impact the outcome of the play. Tough to see that call made there.

Edit: Eh, maybe this is a dumb point.

Not a dumb point, but holding is holding, regardless of where the ball was thrown.

EvilEmpire · Feb 13, 2023

If there was a point of emphasis with the refs, I think it was to call what they could see clearly and not infer quite as much as we might see in a regular season game. I think they probably called what they were sure of, and that is why there wasn't a lot of penalties in the game.

So yeah, they missed stuff. But we also didn't see any phantom penalties called either. That last hold certainly wasn't one.

Kenny F'ing Powers · Feb 13, 2023

j44thor said:
Without the All-22 it is nearly impossible to see plays that weren't called during the game, especially since the last thing they want networks doing is criticizing the refs. It is entirely possible that was the first and only legit DB holding all game but I find it rather hard to believe the 31st ranked KC secondary gave PHI as much trouble as it did in the 2nd half vs. an elite mobile QB. I have zero evidence but I'd be willing to bet the all-22 will show more than a few grabs that went uncalled.

Again, I'm not saying its the first/only legit hold. But if they had missed a few throughout the game...that shits just going to happen.There is SO much for refs to watch, I'm not bothered by it. And I'd rather watch a game where, if they aren't sure its a hold, they don't call it.

But "They let it go all game" is becoming a bit of a "just trust me, bro" statement. If someone says that the refs let DB's hold all game, than that to me indicates a high level of physical play that was pretty consistent throughout the game. If that were the case, then I get the frustration of the call. But from what I saw, the back 7 on both teams was more concerned with not getting burned deep and giving some serious cushion throughout the game.

So, is it possible the refs just wanted to insert themselves into the game? I guess. I think its also possible that there was some soft coverage all game and, when the ref saw an undeniable hold, he called it.

Edit: or What EE said above this post.

8slim · Feb 13, 2023

Kenny F'ing Powers said:
But addressing the other point, I do see people asking for consistency. I'll be honest, I wasn't very tuned in on the game. People keep saying they didn't call that hold all game, but is that true? Thats become one of those statements - "they let it go all game!" - that people just state as factual but don't actually have any idea.

Yep, the two big ones are "they could call [X] on every play!" and your aforementioned "they let [X] go all game!". Both are rarely true.

Honestly, for all the commotion about the last penalty, give me the NFL calling games like they did last night all season. Most of the penalties were procedural: false starts, offsides, delays of game. Only a couple of game-action calls (I believe it was one PI and one holding). No OL holding, no personal fouls for roughing or late hits, etc. That's the way the game should be called all the time. Just call the obvious stuff and stay the hell out of the way.

Justthetippett · Feb 13, 2023

8slim said:
Yep, the two big ones are "they could call [X] on every play!" and your aforementioned "they let [X] go all game!". Both are rarely true.

Honestly, for all the commotion about the last penalty, give me the NFL calling games like they did last night all season. Most of the penalties were procedural: false starts, offsides, delays of game. Only a couple of game-action calls (I believe it was one PI and one holding). No OL holding, no personal fouls for roughing or late hits, etc. That's the way the game should be called all the time. Just call the obvious stuff and stay the hell out of the way.

Well, right. Which is why they shouldn't have called the last hold....

I get that this is a endless digression. And that it's basically an impossible game to officiate. I do think it's a better product overall when there are fewer interventions from the refs outside of the unavoidable calls. And that's particularly the case in end of game situations.

tims4wins · Feb 13, 2023

TroyOLeary said:
It was the first holding call of the game on either side. They called 10 penalties, 9 accepted.

Philly penalties:
Offensive PI
Hands to the Face
False Start
Delay of Game
Offside
Defensive Holding

KC Penalties:
Offside
Encroachment
False Start
Offside (Declined)

Thanks for this. My takeaway is that there were only 2 judgment calls made all game (OPI and holding), and both went against Philly. Zero judgment calls against KC. That is hard to fathom.

8slim · Feb 13, 2023

Justthetippett said:
Well, right. Which is why they shouldn't have called the last hold....

I get that this is a endless digression. And that it's basically an impossible game to officiate. I do think it's a better product overall when there are fewer interventions from the refs outside of the unavoidable calls. And that's particularly the case in end of game situations.

I would prefer they let that hold go, but it was pretty darn obvious.

Jimbodandy · Feb 13, 2023

If this game ended 13-10, I could understand the sour grapes a little. But given that the Eagles didn't stop KC once in the second half, this controversy seems wildly overblown.

Kenny F'ing Powers · Feb 13, 2023

8slim said:
I would prefer they let that hold go, but it was pretty darn obvious.

Right. Had the let it go, wouldn't the Chiefs fans have an even bigger gripe? The refs absolutely saw a hold that could impact the outcome in the final stretch of a game, but they dont call it because...its been a pretty clean game so far?

Philip Jeff Frye · Feb 13, 2023

CoffeeNerdness said:
Can we get some examples of players getting away with these penalties all game? I didn't see any blatantly missed calls on replays and people are talking like it was a 60-minute wrestling match out there.

But that's the point. If there's no flag on that play, literally nobody is going to think about it ever again. It was just a usual play where the DB gets a tiny bit handsy, the QB throws the ball away under pressure, and we move on. If you had the time and inclination, you could probably go back and find many, many individual plays where a DB (on either team) puts his hands where he's technically not supposed to or has a tiny bit of a jersey for a split second, but nobody wants to do that.

If there's no call there, the Chiefs have to settle for a field goal and then the Eagles drive the length of the field to win the game in the last 90 seconds or thereabouts, nobody is going to be screaming "The Chiefs were robbed because there was uncalled defensive holding!"

BaseballJones · Feb 13, 2023

Don't have time to go through the whole game, but this is the one I was referring to. 2nd quarter, KC facing 3rd and 8, down 14-7. Pass over the middle to JuJu is incomplete. He screams for a flag. If you have the video you can see how blatant a hold it was. But here's the screenshot. (I don't know how to paste the clip).

Even Olsen was commenting how the refs missed that one.

Also note that it was Bradberry - the same one who committed the penalty at the end. If he was getting away with this during the game, obviously it would make sense that he would play it the same way at the end, having been given no reason to think that the refs would call it. This one above was WAY worse than the one at the end, by the way.

Then there was this one at the end of the first half, on the deep ball to Smith down the right sideline. He hauled it in, but that's when the refs delayed the snap for some reason (I don't recall why) and KC ended up challenging the catch and it was overturned.

Bunch of comments in the game thread, and the video is pretty conclusive, but yeah, Sneed totally interfered with Smith on this play - got there and grabbed Smith's arms before the ball got there. That Smith caught it was pretty amazing actually, though it got overturned.

Anyway, those are two examples of physical play by DBs that didn't get called. Both were significantly worse than what happened at the end when they DID throw a flag.

ngruz25 · Feb 13, 2023

I miss the good old days when the Pats would go a game without being penalized and we'd smugly chalk it up to their discipline.

EvilEmpire · Feb 13, 2023

tims4wins said:
Thanks for this. My takeaway is that there were only 2 judgment calls made all game (OPI and holding), and both went against Philly. Zero judgment calls against KC. That is hard to fathom.

Eh. Penalties not called can be judgement calls too. Barnwell talks about a big one here that favored Philly:

It's true this had been a relatively hands-off game, with the only other judgment call on the books before the fourth quarter having been an offensive pass interference call on Eagles wideout Zach Pascal. In this particular instance, though, the most obvious missed call in pass coverage before the Bradberry play had been ... a play in which Bradberry grabbed Smith-Schuster's arm on third-and-8 in the second quarter and no flag was thrown.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/35649198/how-patrick-mahomes-chiefs-played-perfect-second-half-super-bowl-2023-nfl-win-jalen-hurts-eagles

Barnwell's writeup for the game is pretty good and he devotes more space to penalty discussion than what I've quoted here.

Kenny F'ing Powers · Feb 13, 2023

BaseballJones said:
Don't have time to go through the whole game, but this is the one I was referring to. 2nd quarter, KC facing 3rd and 8, down 14-7. Pass over the middle to JuJu is incomplete. He screams for a flag. If you have the video you can see how blatant a hold it was. But here's the screenshot. (I don't know how to paste the clip).

View attachment 61172

Even Olsen was commenting how the refs missed that one.

Also note that it was Bradberry - the same one who committed the penalty at the end. If he was getting away with this during the game, obviously it would make sense that he would play it the same way at the end, having been given no reason to think that the refs would call it. This one above was WAY worse than the one at the end, by the way.

Then there was this one at the end of the first half, on the deep ball to Smith down the right sideline. He hauled it in, but that's when the refs delayed the snap for some reason (I don't recall why) and KC ended up challenging the catch and it was overturned.

View attachment 61173

Bunch of comments in the game thread, and the video is pretty conclusive, but yeah, Sneed totally interfered with Smith on this play - got there and grabbed Smith's arms before the ball got there. That Smith caught it was pretty amazing actually, though it got overturned.

Anyway, those are two examples of physical play by DBs that didn't get called. Both were significantly worse than what happened at the end when they DID throw a flag.

I remember that first play pretty vividly. I remember thinking, "they shouldn't call that PI" because the throw was pretty wildly off. So, by definition, if it isn't catchable, it isn't interference.

BaseballJones · Feb 13, 2023

Kenny F'ing Powers said:
I remember that first play pretty vividly. I remember thinking, "they shouldn't call that PI" because the throw was pretty wildly off. So, by definition, if it isn't catchable, it isn't interference.

It should have been called holding (the one to JuJu), not DPI. The hold came as he was coming out of his break, and it held him up, which is why the pass was "uncatchable".

genoasalami · Feb 13, 2023

So much to not like about the holding call, but when I watch it a few more times, by the rule book, it was holding. What is important is that if he is not held, the WR releases, and Mahomes has an easy TD. It is kinda like the NHL, when a marginal penalty occurs that would have led to an open shot at the net or a breakaway, the penalty is always called, because the marginal penalty denied a scoring chance.

Kenny F'ing Powers · Feb 13, 2023

genoasalami said:
So much to not like about the holding call, but when I watch it a few more times, by the rule book, it was holding. What is important is that if he is not held, the WR releases, and Mahomes has an easy TD. It is kinda like the NHL, when a marginal penalty occurs that would have led to an open shot at the net or a breakaway, the penalty is always called, because the marginal penalty denied a scoring chance.

Right. Again, had they NOT called the hold, the Chiefs would have a MUCH larger gripe than the Eagles.

Tony C · Feb 13, 2023

EvilEmpire said:
Eh. Penalties not called can be judgement calls too. Barnwell talks about a big one here that favored Philly:

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/35649198/how-patrick-mahomes-chiefs-played-perfect-second-half-super-bowl-2023-nfl-win-jalen-hurts-eagles

Barnwell's writeup for the game is pretty good and he devotes more space to penalty discussion than what I've quoted here.

Thx for posting and this quote is crazy:

The Chiefs converted 93.8% of their first downs into another first down or a touchdown in the second half, and the only reason they didn't hit 100% is because Jerick McKinnon slid down on the 1-yard line to set up the title-winning field goal

Andy Reid just absolutely changed the game with his adjustments and play-calling.

EvilEmpire · Feb 13, 2023

BaseballJones said:
Also note that it was Bradberry - the same one who committed the penalty at the end. If he was getting away with this during the game, obviously it would make sense that he would play it the same way at the end, having been given no reason to think that the refs would call it. This one above was WAY worse than the one at the end, by the way.

I think it's kind of funny that you took at a more egregious example of referee error and your takeaway is that they should have been more consistent...in making errors.

Of course I don't think a ref saw that first penalty and decided not to call it. He just missed it. The game is moving fast and I think he didn't get a good enough look to be sure. The guy who called the penalty at the end did see things clearly and called it.

It's not a perfect system. I liked the way they called the game overall. Try to consistently call what you're sure of.

Strike4 · Feb 13, 2023

Van Everyman said:
One of my big problems with this league is that they are completely untrustworthy as neutral arbiters of the game. So when they exert more control over the officiating behind the scenes, as they have been since Blandino was the head (and partying on buses with Jerry Jones), I’m just completely suspect.

This is a good point, divided into two parts:

The NFL has lost control of the narrative and is widely seen as non-neutral arbiters; and
The NFL has made so many rule changes over the years to gin up portions of the game for entertainment value (i.e. passing) that we have lost the meaning of "fair play" in the NFL rules context. What I mean by this is that we no longer refer to a common standard of "catch" or "fumble"; we instead have to collectively navigate rules which we might perceive to be stupid and ridiculous but we still have to be like "well that's the way the rule is written".

genoasalami · Feb 13, 2023

Why in 2023 are we still bitching about refs? Maybe, it's an incredibly difficult sport to properly call every play?? You know what? in 2033 we will still be bitching about refs. What is the solution? Have eyes in the booth watching replays in 8k and have every call and missed call dissected and analyzed?

BaseballJones · Feb 13, 2023

EvilEmpire said:
I think it's kind of funny that you took at a more egregious example of referee error and your takeaway is that they should have been more consistent...in making errors.

Of course I don't think a ref saw that first penalty and decided not to call it. He just missed it. The game is moving fast and I think he didn't get a good enough look to be sure. The guy who called the penalty at the end did see things clearly and called it.

It's not a perfect system. I liked the way they called the game overall. Try to consistently call what you're sure of.

Of course it's not perfect. These refs have a hard job. But players adjust to how the game is being called. They literally called ZERO defensive holding or DPI all game long. Not a single one. The question is whether or not players were actually NOT holding or interfering, or whether they WERE, but the refs just weren't calling it. Off the top of my head, I gave two glaring examples where the defense WAS holding or interfering, and neither was called. I suspect that you could go back through the game film and find a lot more examples besides these two.

Which would lead me to the conclusion that they simply were not calling it - they surely didn't miss EVERY SINGLE ONE the whole game until the last play right? That would mean they were incompetent. The better explanation is that they, as often happens in championship games in all sports (think game 7 in a stanley cup final), let the players get away with a little more than usual. But that being the case (if I'm right), you can't let them do that all game long and THEN, in the last moment, on a call that was MUCH weaker than previous ones you let go, throw a flag.

Philip Jeff Frye · Feb 13, 2023

Strike4 said:
This is a good point, divided into two parts:

The NFL has lost control of the narrative and is widely seen as non-neutral arbiters; and

The NFL has made so many rule changes over the years to gin up portions of the game for entertainment value (i.e. passing) that we have lost the meaning of "fair play" in the NFL rules context. What I mean by this is that we no longer refer to a common standard of "catch" or "fumble"; we instead have to collectively navigate rules which we might perceive to be stupid and ridiculous but we still have to be like "well that's the way the rule is written".

I suppose rule changes don't help, but the real change has been the ubiquity of high def, slow motion instant replay. We used to know what a catch was because we didn't have 14 different angles showing that the ball moved a smidge when the receiver hit the ground. Now we can never be sure until the next play starts.

EvilEmpire · Feb 13, 2023

BaseballJones said:
Which would lead me to the conclusion that they simply were not calling it - they surely didn't miss EVERY SINGLE ONE the whole game until the last play right?

I think your conclusion that the refs saw all kinds of penalties in the secondary and decided not to call them until they did at the end is nonsense.

I don't think there was a lot of holding and PI to begin with, but yeah, they didn't see everything.

NFL Officiating: Zebras gone wild

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