Tom Brady is retired

RedOctober3829

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
55,298
deep inside Guido territory
I believe someone on SoSH wrote this, but for 20 years, it felt like Brady was a part of the Patriots story. But the last 3 years have made it clear that it was the opposite; the Patriots were a part of Tom Brady’s story.

As a diehard fan of the Patriots, that kind of saddens me. But I obviously wouldn’t trade
those 20 years for anything.
I don't feel this way at all. In the 01-04 years, the team propped Brady up and was a group that collectively was more than the sum of it's parts. In the later years, Brady was the star and everything revolved around him. Without those early years of veterans and Belichick teaching Brady how to be a pro, you don't get the Brady of today.
 

Van Everyman

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2009
26,993
Newton
I believe someone on SoSH wrote this, but for 20 years, it felt like Brady was a part of the Patriots story. But the last 3 years have made it clear that it was the opposite; the Patriots were a part of Tom Brady’s story.

As a diehard fan of the Patriots, that kind of saddens me. But I obviously wouldn’t trade
those 20 years for anything.
Dude are you ok? Between this and your loss of faith in Bill, I feel like we need to conduct a wellness check.
 

Leskanic's Thread

lost underscore
Silver Supporter
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
2,774
Los Angeles
I’ll leave the red hat stuff for V & N, but the rest of your post is spot on. He’s a cheater, he’s a whiner, he’s soft, they changed the rules to protect him, he gets all the calls………. And on and on. I hear all this stuff from friends in rival fan bases. They’re all shitting in their hats, and I laugh at their petty bitterness, but it’s absolutely out there.
I think people hate Brady the same way NEP fans hate Manning or Mahomes: out of fan competiveness and jealousy that he didn’t play for the team they root for. When you go in with that mindset, it’s easy to find things to hang your hat on.
Yeah, I think these are doing a better job of what I was getting at. They may soften on him and say without reservation he's the GOAT...but they don't think he was scandal-free or someone everybody liked.

I also assume the people who aren't Patriots fans who recognize Deflategate was a joke pay very close attention to the league. It's more casual fans who have the narrative locked in of how Brady and Belichick won their Super Bowls underhandedly -- whether from direct cheating or being the league favorites who get all the calls. (I know, I know...a very crazy take. But I'm just reporting here, folks.)

Anyway, enough of that from me. To echo what others have said: Tom Brady joined the Patriots when I was 22. Now I'm 44 and he's retiring -- he's been a force for half my life. I remember almost skipping the Steelers game in 2001 because I figured it was a lost cause and the Snow Bowl game was our Super Bowl victory. I also remember going to City Hall Plaza to see Ray Borque show off Colorado's Stanley Cup so Boston fans could see some kind of trophy. I can barely believe the run of success and luck we've had...especially since there are at least five all-timer gut-punch playoff losses mixed in there for our four teams. Yet here we are, with all these happy memories. And Tom Brady was in the middle of more of them than anyone else. What a time to be alive.
 

loshjott

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 30, 2004
14,943
Silver Spring, MD
I’ll leave the red hat stuff for V & N, but the rest of your post is spot on. He’s a cheater, he’s a whiner, he’s soft, they changed the rules to protect him, he gets all the calls………. And on and on. I hear all this stuff from friends in rival fan bases. They’re all shitting in their hats, and I laugh at their petty bitterness, but it’s absolutely out there.
I have a good friend from college who's a huge Jets fan. We were in college before the Brady years, at the time when Marino was dominant.

Over the Brady years he'd spout his stuff to me in a joking manner and I would reply, "you're just jealous." And he was always honest "OF COURSE I'm just jealous. I'd take him on the Jets with all this bullshit in a heartbeat."

That's all it is.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

Throw Momma From the Train
Moderator
SoSH Member
May 20, 2003
35,719
Deep inside Muppet Labs
The one day contract has become a very common thing as a final "welcome back" to players who established their legacy in one place but ended their career somewhere else. Ed Reed had one, I think, as did Revis.

It's harmless and it's a nice touch. I'm here for it.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

Found no thrill on Blueberry Hill
SoSH Member
Sep 9, 2008
42,271
AZ
I believe someone on SoSH wrote this, but for 20 years, it felt like Brady was a part of the Patriots story. But the last 3 years have made it clear that it was the opposite; the Patriots were a part of Tom Brady’s story.

As a diehard fan of the Patriots, that kind of saddens me. But I obviously wouldn’t trade
those 20 years for anything.
Nah, it’s a team game. Edelman, Gronk, Vini, Troy Brown, Teddy. Etc. They all mattered. 51 guys and the coaches doing their job for two decades is what it took. No player wins a championship.
 

cornwalls@6

Less observant than others
SoSH Member
Apr 23, 2010
6,247
from the wilds of western ma
Nah, it’s a team game. Edelman, Gronk, Vini, Troy Brown, Teddy. Etc. They all mattered. 51 guys and the coaches doing their job for two decades is what it took. No player wins a championship.
This, exactly. You don’t dominate for 20 years without all of that in place. And this past season in Tampa revealed what happens when a lot of it is missing. He’s the greatest player in the history of the sport, but it remains a team game, and he doesn’t achieve that status without the culture, coaching, and teammates he had in New England.
 

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
18,096
Tom Brady has thrown 50+ passes in a playoff game 10 times. He's 6-4 in those games. With New England, he's 6-2 in such games.

Here are the other QBs who have thrown 50+ passes in an NFL playoff game:
Dan Marino is 0-2.
Ben Roethlisberger is 0-2.
Drew Brees is 0-2.
Jim Kelly is 0-3.
Steve Young is 0-1.
Bernie Kosar is 1-0.
Lamar Jackson is 0-1.
Eli Manning is 1-0.
Derek Carr is 0-1.
Andrew Luck is 0-1.
Geoff George is 0-2.
Neil O'Donnell is 0-1.
Randall Cunningham is 0-1.
Troy Aikman is 0-1.
Danny White is 0-1.
Vinny Testaverde is 0-1.
Deshaun Watson is 0-1.
Warren Moon is 0-2.
Philip Rivers is 0-1.
Andy Dalton is 0-1.
Matt Schaub is 0-1.
Donovan McNabb is 0-1.
Neil Lomax is 0-1.
Richard Todd is 0-1.
Alex Smith is 0-1.
Todd Collins is 0-1.
Drew Bledsoe is 0-1.
Dave Krieg is 0-1.
Jay Schroeder is 0-1.

So these other 29 QBs have played 36 playoff games where the QB has thrown 50+ passes. They're a combined 2-34 (.056). Meanwhile, Tom Brady is 6-4 (.600), and 6-2 (.750) with the Pats in these kinds of games.

System quarterback though. LOL.


For the record, here are Brady's 10 playoff games with 50+ passing attempts, in chronological order:

With New England
1-19-02 vs Oak (Div round): 32-52 (61.5%), 312 yds, 0 td, 0 int, Pats win 16-13 in OT
1-14-07 at SD (Div round): 27-51 (52.9%), 280 yds, 2 td, 3 int, Pats win 24-21
1-20-13 vs Bal (AFCCG): 29-54 (53.7%), 320 yds, 1 td, 2 int, Pats lose 28-13
1-10-15 vs Bal (Div round): 33-50 (66.0%), 367 yds, 3 td, 1 int, Pats win 35-31
2-1-15 vs Sea (Super Bowl): 37-50 (74.0%), 328 yds, 4 td, 2 int, Pats win 28-24
1-24-16 at Den (AFCCG): 27-56 (48.2%), 310 yds, 1 td, 2 int, Pats lose 20-18
2-5-17 vs Atl (Super Bowl): 43-62 (69.4%), 466 yds, 2 td, 1 int, Pats win 34-28 in OT
1-13-18 vs Ten (Div round): 35-53 (66.0%), 337 yds, 3 td, 0 int, Pats win 35-14

With Tampa Bay
1-23-22 vs LAR (NFCCG): 30-54 (55.6%), 329 yds, 1 td, 1 int, Bucs lose 30-27
1-16-23 vs Dal (WC round): 35-66 (53.0%), 351 yds, 2 td, 1 int, Bucs lose 31-14


Only 6 times in NFL history has a QB thrown 50+ passes in a Super Bowl.

Brady - SB LI - 62 attempts - WIN
Kelly - SB XXVI - 58 attempts - LOSS
McNabb - SB XXXIX - 51 attempts - LOSS
Brady - SB XLIX - 50 attempts - WIN
Kelly - SB XXVIII - 50 attempts - LOSS
Marino - SB XIX - 50 attempts - LOSS

So everyone else is 0-4 in Super Bowls when throwing 50+ passes. Brady, meanwhile, is 2-0.
I decided to quote this post in the Brady thread ;) . Anyway, Brady's regular season record when he hoists 50+ is similarly remarkable: 19-10. No QB has come close. It's the #1 stat to cite to anyone that claims Brady is overrated.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
24,375
One day contract would be cool, I just think Brady will likely be a little peeved Kraft put that out there as now if it doesn't get done, Tom will take the blame.
Well, since it seems that Kraft is 100% in on it, if it doesn't happen, uh, yeah, it would be Brady's fault.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
24,375
I decided to quote this post in the Brady thread ;) . Anyway, Brady's regular season record when he hoists 50+ is similarly remarkable: 19-10. No QB has come close. It's the #1 stat to cite to anyone that claims Brady is overrated.
Something about all those losses by all those other QBs - including some big time hall of famers - tells us that when you throw that much, it's actually a detriment, even if the guy throwing is an all time great quarterback. Just standing back there and chucking is a bad way to try to win football games. Often that many throws comes because you're down so much, but whatever the reason, it allows the defense to just concentrate on the passing game and pay virtually no attention to the running game. When any team is one-dimensional, no matter how great the quarterback is, it makes it very difficult to win.

That unbelievable 2-34 record is more than enough evidence for that. Yet Brady is 6-4 - and yes, 6-2 with the Pats. :)
 

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
21,754
Pittsburgh, PA
I have a good friend from college who's a huge Jets fan. We were in college before the Brady years, at the time when Marino was dominant.

Over the Brady years he'd spout his stuff to me in a joking manner and I would reply, "you're just jealous." And he was always honest "OF COURSE I'm just jealous. I'd take him on the Jets with all this bullshit in a heartbeat."

That's all it is.
Brady should sign a contract with the Jets and then resign after 1 day.
 

Ed Hillel

Wants to be startin somethin
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2007
43,558
Here
I don't feel this way at all. In the 01-04 years, the team propped Brady up and was a group that collectively was more than the sum of it's parts. In the later years, Brady was the star and everything revolved around him. Without those early years of veterans and Belichick teaching Brady how to be a pro, you don't get the Brady of today.
Not to mention the last Superbowl season, the better unit was the D. The idea BB and the defense didn't play a huge part in the championships is patently absurd.
 

rodderick

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 24, 2009
12,750
Belo Horizonte - Brazil
This, exactly. You don’t dominate for 20 years without all of that in place. And this past season in Tampa revealed what happens when a lot of it is missing. He’s the greatest player in the history of the sport, but it remains a team game, and he doesn’t achieve that status without the culture, coaching, and teammates he had in New England.
Sure, that's what happens when a lot of it is missing and Brady is a 45 year old who unretired and had a tumultuous divorce in training camp. Kinda crazy to take that as representative of his career.

Obviously it's a team game. Just so happens he was the only guy who played on all of those teams. Maybe it was right place, right time I guess.
 

rodderick

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 24, 2009
12,750
Belo Horizonte - Brazil
Not to mention the last Superbowl season, the better unit was the D. The idea BB and the defense didn't play a huge part in the championships is patently absurd.
Huh? The 2018 offense ranked higher than the defense by points, yards, EPA/Play and DVOA. They scored 78 points in the two playoff games preceding the Super Bowl.
 

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
21,754
Pittsburgh, PA
I assume he's speaking mostly of the Superbowl itself, where our D went up against the #2-scoring offense in the league which had been getting a ton of hype, and did the following on the Rams' drives:

3 plays, 2 yds, punt
5 plays, 17 yds, punt
3 plays, 3 yds, punt
5 plays, 23 yds, punt
3 plays, -6 yds, punt
3 plays, 8 yds, punt
--- halftime ---
5 plays, 21 yds, punt
3 plays, 4 yds, punt
10 plays, 42 yds, Field Goal
9 plays, 23 yds, punt
7 plays, 48 yds, Interception
6 plays, 45 yds, Missed FG

I hope Bill's defensive gameplan from that game was written down somewhere, because it should be in the hall of fame sitting right next to his plan to beat Jim Kelly.

Meanwhile, Brady and the offense sputtered against the #20 defense in the league for most of the game, until McDaniels and Brady finally got what they were looking for.
 

Ed Hillel

Wants to be startin somethin
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2007
43,558
Here
Huh? The 2018 offense ranked higher than the defense by points, yards, EPA/Play and DVOA. They scored 78 points in the two playoff games preceding the Super Bowl.
The defense also held KC scoreless in the first half and shut down San Diego and statistically one of the best offenses ever in the Superbowl. There was a lot of talent on that side of the ball and they stepped it up when it mattered. The secondary was absurd, maybe one of the best you'll ever see.
 

rodderick

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 24, 2009
12,750
Belo Horizonte - Brazil
The defense also held KC scoreless in the first half and shut down San Diego and statistically one of the best offenses ever in the Superbowl. There was a lot of talent on that side of the ball and they stepped it up when it mattered. The secondary was absurd, maybe one of the best you'll ever see.
I completely disagree with the last point and I don't think any stat bears that out. They were a good secondary, but really, one of the best ever? I agree with the rest of your post, but the offense was still the better unit all year long. Even in the Super Bowl they moved the ball reasonably well (over 400 yards of offense), just were done in by a great Hekker performance and poorly timed lapses in execution.
 

rodderick

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 24, 2009
12,750
Belo Horizonte - Brazil
I assume he's speaking mostly of the Superbowl itself, where our D went up against the #2-scoring offense in the league which had been getting a ton of hype, and did the following on the Rams' drives:

3 plays, 2 yds, punt
5 plays, 17 yds, punt
3 plays, 3 yds, punt
5 plays, 23 yds, punt
3 plays, -6 yds, punt
3 plays, 8 yds, punt
--- halftime ---
5 plays, 21 yds, punt
3 plays, 4 yds, punt
10 plays, 42 yds, Field Goal
9 plays, 23 yds, punt
7 plays, 48 yds, Interception
6 plays, 45 yds, Missed FG

I hope Bill's defensive gameplan from that game was written down somewhere, because it should be in the hall of fame sitting right next to his plan to beat Jim Kelly.

Meanwhile, Brady and the offense sputtered against the #20 defense in the league for most of the game, until McDaniels and Brady finally got what they were looking for.
That's all true. Then again, if that's the criteria I guess we have to credit the 2003 season to the offense, considering they were the ones mostly responsible for the win against the Panthers. I don't think that's fair analysis.
 

Jimbodandy

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
11,403
around the way
I hope Bill's defensive gameplan from that game was written down somewhere, because it should be in the hall of fame sitting right next to his plan to beat Jim Kelly.
Someone posted a video that described what the Pats did to that offense (5-1) and how it effectively broke that Rams/McVay offense for good. Teams just executed that blueprint until McVay had to abandon a bunch of the concepts and do something completely different.

It belongs in the HOF with his Rams v1 game plan (smash everyone, especially Faulk, for five yards to disrupt the timing) and a few others (that Buffalo one that you linked, e.g.). What an innovator.

That's not to take anything away from Tom, but this Tom vs. Bill nonsense scandal misses the obvious symbiosis between those two guys.
 

cornwalls@6

Less observant than others
SoSH Member
Apr 23, 2010
6,247
from the wilds of western ma
Sure, that's what happens when a lot of it is missing and Brady is a 45 year old who unretired and had a tumultuous divorce in training camp. Kinda crazy to take that as representative of his career.

Obviously it's a team game. Just so happens he was the only guy who played on all of those teams. Maybe it was right place, right time I guess.
Nobody’s denying his greatness or his central role in the dynasty, just pointing out that that coaching, system, and teammates have to be in place to maximize it.
 

rodderick

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 24, 2009
12,750
Belo Horizonte - Brazil
Nobody’s denying his greatness or his central role in the dynasty, just pointing out that that coaching, system, and teammates have to be in place to maximize it.
Sure, but no one argues he was solely responsible. A lot of people do argue that his contributions were the preponderant factor in their success. I don't think anyone out there believes he'd manage to do anything on the 2017 Browns.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

Throw Momma From the Train
Moderator
SoSH Member
May 20, 2003
35,719
Deep inside Muppet Labs
Someone posted a video that described what the Pats did to that offense (5-1) and how it effectively broke that Rams/McVay offense for good. Teams just executed that blueprint until McVay had to abandon a bunch of the concepts and do something completely different.

It belongs in the HOF with his Rams v1 game plan (smash everyone, especially Faulk, for five yards to disrupt the timing) and a few others (that Buffalo one that you linked, e.g.). What an innovator.

That's not to take anything away from Tom, but this Tom vs. Bill nonsense scandal misses the obvious symbiosis between those two guys.
IIRC, the conceit of changing the defensive look when 15 seconds or less remained on the play clock was originally used by Patricia that season as HC of the Lions. BB saw that (and likely consulted with Patricia) and they implemented that in the SB to confuse Goff. Hoyer was apparently the one to watch film and sweat the details as to how to change the approach most efficiently.
 

BusRaker

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 11, 2006
2,371
Something about all those losses by all those other QBs - including some big time hall of famers - tells us that when you throw that much, it's actually a detriment, even if the guy throwing is an all time great quarterback.
Let's not confuse cause and effect. If you're down by two scores you end up throwing 50 times
 

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
21,754
Pittsburgh, PA
That's all true. Then again, if that's the criteria I guess we have to credit the 2003 season to the offense, considering they were the ones mostly responsible for the win against the Panthers. I don't think that's fair analysis.
Ed Hillel's point that you were responding to was, "The idea BB and the defense didn't play a huge part in the championships is patently absurd."

Nobody was arguing that we "should credit season X to the [defense | offense]", so I'm not sure what you're taking issue with.
 

JohnnyK

Member
SoSH Member
May 8, 2007
1,941
Wolfern, Austria
I assume he's speaking mostly of the Superbowl itself, where our D went up against the #2-scoring offense in the league which had been getting a ton of hype, and did the following on the Rams' drives:
not to take anything away, but that the Rams offense was basically missing its most important player in Todd Gurley; he played some snaps but was clearly a shell of his healthy self
 

rodderick

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 24, 2009
12,750
Belo Horizonte - Brazil
Ed Hillel's point that you were responding to was, "The idea BB and the defense didn't play a huge part in the championships is patently absurd."

Nobody was arguing that we "should credit season X to the [defense | offense]", so I'm not sure what you're taking issue with.
I'm taking issue with the statement that the defense was the better unit in the 2018 title season when I don't think there's anything to bear that out. Thought it was pretty clear.
 

Ed Hillel

Wants to be startin somethin
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2007
43,558
Here
I completely disagree with the last point and I don't think any stat bears that out. They were a good secondary, but really, one of the best ever? I agree with the rest of your post, but the offense was still the better unit all year long. Even in the Super Bowl they moved the ball reasonably well (over 400 yards of offense), just were done in by a great Hekker performance and poorly timed lapses in execution.
The secondary talent that year was crazy. Gilmore was first team all pro, Jason McCourty had a fantastic pro-bowl caliber year, JC Jackson/Jonathan Jones were your nickel and dime, and the safeties were peak McCourty, Chung, and Harmon.

The unit that immediately jumps to mind is the Legion of Boom, but I think this unit is up there.
not to take anything away, but that the Rams offense was basically missing its most important player in Todd Gurley; he played some snaps but was clearly a shell of his healthy self
Even worse, it was missing Cooper Kupp, who tore his ACL late in the season. He was always the best player on that offense imo.
 

Omar's Wacky Neighbor

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
16,626
Leaving in a bit to the studio :)
I don’t want to pee in anyone’s Cheerios…but saying virtually the entire world recognizes Deflategate was a fraud is 1,000% wrong. Would that it weren’t…but outside New England, Tom being a cheater is taken as a given.
Reminder that even Neil Degrasse Tyson was one of several scientists/academics who got the IGL wrong at the time.
 

wiffleballhero

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 28, 2009
4,529
In the simulacrum
The one day contract thing is dumb unless they use it as a vehicle to sign him to an extension.

I'm around tons of Bills fans who historically were always happy to cart out all the dumbest spygate/deflated football nonsense any chance they could. But with a combination of the passage of time and the Bills now actually being pretty good they seem to have come to a new understanding: the Bills, in retrospect, kinda just sucked.

I think Brady's legacy will leave all the loser, paranoid accusations in the rearview mirror really quickly in part because a little bit of distance makes it pretty easy to see the flaws in a person's beloved 10-6 team from a dozen years ago or whatever.
 

snowmanny

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 8, 2005
15,667
Brady/Belichick vs MVPs in the playoffs:

2001 Warner W
2003 Manning W
2003 McNair W
2004 Manning W
2006 Tomlinson W
2013 Manning L
2016 Ryan W
2018 Mahomes W

Brady also had:
2020 Rodgers W

Brady was 7-1 vs MVP QBs in the playoffs.
 

Van Everyman

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2009
26,993
Newton
Brady/Belichick vs MVPs in the playoffs:

2001 Warner W
2003 Manning W
2003 McNair W
2004 Manning W
2006 Tomlinson W
2013 Manning L
2016 Ryan W
2018 Mahomes W

Brady also had:
2020 Rodgers W

Brady was 7-1 vs MVP QBs in the playoffs.
Unfortunately, as an MVP, he is also 0-3 in the SB.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
24,375
Who are the six QBs who have won the league MVP and the Super Bowl in the same year?

1966 - Bart Starr
1978 - Terry Bradshaw
1989 - Joe Montana
1994 - Steve Young
1996 - Brett Favre
1999 - Kurt Warner

So it's been 23 years since it's happened. Crazy.
 

tims4wins

PN23's replacement
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
37,054
Hingham, MA
Who are the six QBs who have won the league MVP and the Super Bowl in the same year?

1966 - Bart Starr
1978 - Terry Bradshaw
1989 - Joe Montana
1994 - Steve Young
1996 - Brett Favre
1999 - Kurt Warner

So it's been 23 years since it's happened. Crazy.
Not to mention, the MVP QB lost the Super Bowl in 3 straight years from 2015 through 2017 (among some other losses).
 

Remagellan

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Who are the six QBs who have won the league MVP and the Super Bowl in the same year?

1966 - Bart Starr
1978 - Terry Bradshaw
1989 - Joe Montana
1994 - Steve Young
1996 - Brett Favre
1999 - Kurt Warner

So it's been 23 years since it's happened. Crazy.
Joe Namath was the AFL MVP in 1968, the same season the Jets won Super Bowl III, so he should be on the list