Jayson Tatum's Rise to the Top

GeorgeCostanza said:

You can say he played like shit, because he did. Also if you don’t know the etymology of a word, look it up. No need to guess when we all have google at our finger tips.

Also Kobe used the F word to describe someone performance. Is that famous statement/assessment of his not allowed to be quoted or referenced? Asking for a friend. Of course it’s not allowed because we aren’t (generally) assholes here. I think you’ll manage just fine with the “ever shrinking approved list”.

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No, that would describe the quality of his play. I'm looking for the way to characterize the WAY he played, i.e., he played sans balls. And I'll choose when to google things for myself, thanks. If you think my guess was wrong, then feel free to correct me - otherwise I'll worry about where I source my etymology.

You are in a Celtics forum, and are referencing Kobe? I'll stick with Bird, thanks.

Finally, if you think this basketball forum hasn't been full of people being assholes to each other here for the last month or so, you aren't paying attention. Seriously, piranha level assholes (some of it wasn't even deserved).

RetractableRoof said:

No, that would describe the quality of his play. I'm looking for the way to characterize the WAY he played, i.e., he played sans balls. And I'll choose when to google things for myself, thanks. If you think my guess was wrong, then feel free to correct me - otherwise I'll worry about where I source my etymology.

You are in a Celtics forum, and are referencing Kobe? I'll stick with Bird, thanks.

Finally, if you think this basketball forum hasn't been full of people being assholes to each other here for the last month or so, you aren't paying attention. Seriously, piranha level assholes (some of it wasn't even deserved).

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There is certainly nothing wrong with referencing the Bird quote. But, if we are sharing our own assessments of Tatum's play in Game 3, there are certainly other words to use that are both more accurate and more appropriate.

RetractableRoof said:

This side discussion is a little on the nuts side.

1) First, sissy is straight from the Bird quote. Is that famous statement/assessment of his not allowed to be quoted or referenced? Asking for a friend.

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Hopefully we have learned something in the last (almost) 40 years. If you need to reference the quote, go ahead and cite the quote and give it attribution. But leaving aside the entire PC thing, seems like we can express ourselves just fine withoit using words that were derogatory in the past. Distracted, dispassionate, uninspired, dispirited, lethargic (etc.) all get the idea across IMO.

RetractableRoof said:

No, that would describe the quality of his play. I'm looking for the way to characterize the WAY he played, i.e., he played sans balls. And I'll choose when to google things for myself, thanks. If you think my guess was wrong, then feel free to correct me - otherwise I'll worry about where I source my etymology.

You are in a Celtics forum, and are referencing Kobe? I'll stick with Bird, thanks.

Finally, if you think this basketball forum hasn't been full of people being assholes to each other here for the last month or so, you aren't paying attention. Seriously, piranha level assholes (some of it wasn't even deserved).

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Do you think you can directly quote rap songs that use words that aren't your words to use?

What you quoted maligns both women and gay men by indicating the latter are like the former, and therefore missing something important and fundamental. The whole notion of using "not like a man" as an insult is so fundamentally fucked up that it is almost staggering that it requires explanation as to why it's offensive. Saying someone plays like a gay man because that gay man is like a girl is incredibly offensive.

"Lacking balls" is fucking offensive, for the exact same reason.

It also maligns *men* because it requires that men be a certain way lest they be "not manly", e.g. gay, e.g. like a woman. It's all built on the idea that men are better /more important / tougher.

Bird said it, in the 80s, when we were less good about this sort of thing. But it's still a terrible quote, just like people then- or now- calling someone a f*g as a pejorative.

Seriously, this has no fucking place on this forum. It's gross. Please reconsider, and just stop

Spelunker said:

Do you think you can directly quote rap songs that use words that aren't your words to use?

What you quoted maligns both women and gay men by indicating the latter are like the former, and therefore missing something important and fundamental. The whole notion of using "not like a man" as an insult is so fundamentally fucked up that it is almost staggering that it requires explanation as to why it's offensive. Saying someone plays like a gay man because that gay man is like a girl is incredibly offensive.

"Lacking balls" is fucking offensive, for the exact same reason.

It also maligns *men* because it requires that men be a certain way lest they be "not manly", e.g. gay, e.g. like a woman. It's all built on the idea that men are better /more important / tougher.

Bird said it, in the 80s, when we were less good about this sort of thing. But it's still a terrible quote, just like people then- or now- calling someone a f*g as a pejorative.

Seriously, this has no fucking place on this forum. It's gross. Please reconsider, and just stop

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Just so you can calm down a bit, I referenced it for discussion - I didn't bring up the Bird quote.

Yes this site is full of references to things like "he's got Saturn Balls", implying all the things you state that "Sans Balls" does - while we virtue signal that we are above the misogyny. It's um... a contradiction. I may not make the point very well, but the point is there. We are busy patting ourselves while we walk on by other examples of misogyny.

You have a whole lot more experience with insulting women and gay men I guess, I've never used the term in my life (other than the context of this thread). As I said, it's clearly a pejorative to me.

Sans Balls (sounds less offensive when mixed with a french word, eh?) bothers you as well, because it is demeaning to men (as well)? Have you not seen posts here where men are told to not act like a dick? Does that bother you? Or do we get to pick and choose? Does it bother you when someone says that "XYZ player needs to sack up?" What about "balls to the wall"? You do realize that a high percentage of athletic achievement (especially in our championship tournaments) is reliant on toughness, fortitude, grit. Toughness isn't a negative trait, it never has been. The participation trophy culture doesn't like it - but it's true. And women (in my experience) usually possess more of it than men. Lacking toughness doesn't capture everything that Tatum's performance is lacking, surely there is another PC way to say it? Lacking testosterone (should be safe, because men and women have testosterone)? I think I'll use that until that gets shot down.

And by the way, in a place with such niceties and manners, and looking out for our fellow humans, the level of profanity by some posters is just ugh. It's almost like they have to curse in every sentence to add an edge or a more belligerent tone to try to bully their way to their point. Surely in our effort to cleanup our speech, and make things safe for puppies everywhere we can just lose the foul language?

Back to basketball... Tatum's performance lacked testosterone.

wade boggs chicken dinner said:

Hopefully we have learned something in the last (almost) 40 years. If you need to reference the quote, go ahead and cite the quote and give it attribution. But leaving aside the entire PC thing, seems like we can express ourselves just fine withoit using words that were derogatory in the past. Distracted, dispassionate, uninspired, dispirited, lethargic (etc.) all get the idea across IMO.

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I accept your point, and wasn't condoning [Edit:advocating] for the use of the word - even if I didn't make that point clearly.

The bolded... don't capture Tatum's performance. It was more than that...

RetractableRoof said:

Just so you can calm down a bit, I referenced it for discussion - I didn't bring up the Bird quote.

Yes this site is full of references to things like "he's got Saturn Balls", implying all the things you state that "Sans Balls" does - while we virtue signal that we are above the misogyny. It's um... a contradiction. I may not make the point very well, but the point is there. We are busy patting ourselves while we walk on by other examples of misogyny.

You have a whole lot more experience with insulting women and gay men I guess, I've never used the term in my life (other than the context of this thread). As I said, it's clearly a pejorative to me.

Sans Balls (sounds less offensive when mixed with a french word, eh?) bothers you as well, because it is demeaning to men (as well)? Have you not seen posts here where men are told to not act like a dick? Does that bother you? Or do we get to pick and choose? Does it bother you when someone says that "XYZ player needs to sack up?" What about "balls to the wall"? You do realize that a high percentage of athletic achievement (especially in our championship tournaments) is reliant on toughness, fortitude, grit. Toughness isn't a negative trait, it never has been. The participation trophy culture doesn't like it - but it's true. And women (in my experience) usually possess more of it than men. Lacking toughness doesn't capture everything that Tatum's performance is lacking, surely there is another PC way to say it? Lacking testosterone (should be safe, because men and women have testosterone)? I think I'll use that until that gets shot down.

And by the way, in a place with such niceties and manners, and looking out for our fellow humans, the level of profanity by some posters is just ugh. It's almost like they have to curse in every sentence to add an edge or a more belligerent tone to try to bully their way to their point. Surely in our effort to cleanup our speech, and make things safe for puppies everywhere we can just lose the foul language?

Back to basketball... Tatum's performance lacked testosterone.

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Oh you nailed it this time for sure!

Do you really not understand the difference between pejoratives/slurs and some F and S bombs?

RetractableRoof said:

It's almost like they have to curse in every sentence to add an edge or a more belligerent tone to try to bully their way to their point. Surely in our effort to cleanup our speech, and make things safe for puppies everywhere we can just lose the foul language?

Back to basketball... Tatum's performance lacked testosterone.

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Yeah, I can’t fucking believe the shit that people post here. Assholes.

Let's get back to the other part of this thread that is odious - the knee-jerk reaction to Tatum having a poor ECF game when the opposing team is prepared, focused and equipped to stop him.

Those questioning Tatum's toughness are ignoring a large sample size of an extremely durable player who takes a lot of punishment on both ends of the floor. Yet he leads all remaining players in mpg while also playing in the second most (tied with a bunch of others including Jaylen) games this post-season. Despite his struggles on Saturday evening he is fourth overall in scoring of all remaining players and he has done more heavy lifting than any of them - save for maybe Butler - in terms of defense in the playoffs.

I would bet that Bird would take Tatum as a player or even teammate any day - even after that last game.

nighthob said:

Yeah, I can’t fucking believe the shit that people post here. Assholes.

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I laughed.

DeJesus Built My Hotrod said:

Let's get back to the other part of this thread that is odious - the knee-jerk reaction to Tatum having a poor ECF game when the opposing team is prepared, focused and equipped to stop him.

Those questioning Tatum's toughness are ignoring a large sample size of an extremely durable player who takes a lot of punishment on both ends of the floor. Yet he leads all remaining players in mpg while also playing in the second most (tied with a bunch of others including Jaylen) games this post-season. Despite his struggles on Saturday evening he is fourth overall in scoring of all remaining players and he has done more heavy lifting than any of them - save for maybe Butler - in terms of defense in the playoffs.

I would bet that Bird would take Tatum as a player or even teammate any day - even after that last game.

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I think it is fair to question, not just Tatum's but the whole team's mental toughness and maturity. It's fair to question it, not to definitively answrr it.

Part of mental toughness is staying on your game after what you think is a bad call, instead of shifting focus to the refs. Is anyone willing to claim with a straight face that Tatum hasn't repeatedly cost his team by barking at the refs instead of getting back on defense, leading to easy baskets? No. No one can honestly make that claim.

Why should a team whose calling card is its defense suddenly develop a problem giving up fast breaks after made baskets? This is a generally rare occurrence in basketball generally but has been a pretty common one against the Celtics in the playoffs.

He's had 2 games now where not only has his scoring been shut down, his whole game has been shut down to the point of his arguably being a liability (in Miami game 3 4th quarter, the team played better with Tatum on the bench than in the game).

Tatum and the team just aren't there yet. Maybe they get there this season, but they are running out of time to do that.

Edit: Bird's comments, misogynistically phrased as they were, were really about questioning the team's mental toughness and maturity on the court. Like Tatum now, Bird was a fifth-year player in his team's playoff run when he said those things. Unlike Tatum now, Bird was 3.5 years older. Bird can be forgiven some of his language because such thigs were commonly said back then. If asked, I think Bird would not disavow calling out his team but would (rightly) disavow the misogynistic manner in which he chose to do it. Having said that, despite being younger, Tatum has more off the court maturity today than Bird did back then. Less than a year after calling out his team, Bird would get into a barfight on the eve of the playoffs and potentially, unprovably, cost his team a title. But in terms of mental toughness and maturity on the court, Bird showed he had it in 1984, Tatum has yet to show the same. (Which is different from saying he never will; he is only 24. And maybe he will this postseason.)

Eddie Jurak said:

I think it is fair to question, not just Tatum's but the whole team's mental toughness and maturity. It's fair to question it, not to definitively answrr it.

Part of mental toughness is staying on your game after what you think is a bad call, instead of shifting focus to the refs. Is anyone willing to claim with a straight face that Tatum hasn't repeatedly cost his team by barking at the refs instead of getting back on defense, leading to easy baskets? No. No one can honestly make that claim.

Why should a team whose calling card is its defense suddenly develop a problem giving up fast breaks after made baskets? This is a generally rare occurrence in basketball generally but has been a pretty common one against the Celtics in the playoffs.

He's had 2 games now where not only has his scoring been shut down, his whole game has been shut down to the point of his arguably being a liability (in Miami game 3 4th quarter, the team played better with Tatum on the bench than in the game).

Tatum and the team just aren't there yet. Maybe they get there this season, but they are running out of time to do that.

Edit: Bird's comments, misogynistically phrased as they were, were really about questioning the team's mental toughness and maturity on the court. Like Tatum now, Bird was a fifth-year player in his team's playoff run when he said those things. Unlike Tatum now, Bird was 3.5 years older. Bird can be forgiven some of his language because such thigs were commonly said back then. If asked, I think Bird would not disavow calling out his team but would (rightly) disavow the misogynistic manner in which he chose to do it. Having said that, despite being younger, Tatum has more off the court maturity today than Bird did back then. Less than a year after calling out his team, Bird would get into a barfight on the eve of the playoffs and potentially, unprovably, cost his team a title. But in terms of mental toughness and maturity on the court, Bird showed he had it in 1984, Tatum has yet to show the same. (Which is different from saying he never will; he is only 24. And maybe he will this postseason.)

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I think this is a fantastic post. I know we try not to +1 around here, but this is really well said and accurate.

Eddie Jurak said:

I think it is fair to question, not just Tatum's but the whole team's mental toughness and maturity. It's fair to question it, not to definitively answrr it.

Part of mental toughness is staying on your game after what you think is a bad call, instead of shifting focus to the refs. Is anyone willing to claim with a straight face that Tatum hasn't repeatedly cost his team by barking at the refs instead of getting back on defense, leading to easy baskets? No. No one can honestly make that claim.

Why should a team whose calling card is its defense suddenly develop a problem giving up fast breaks after made baskets? This is a generally rare occurrence in basketball generally but has been a pretty common one against the Celtics in the playoffs.

He's had 2 games now where not only has his scoring been shut down, his whole game has been shut down to the point of his arguably being a liability (in Miami game 3 4th quarter, the team played better with Tatum on the bench than in the game).

Tatum and the team just aren't there yet. Maybe they get there this season, but they are running out of time to do that.

Edit: Bird's comments, misogynistically phrased as they were, were really about questioning the team's mental toughness and maturity on the court. Like Tatum now, Bird was a fifth-year player in his team's playoff run when he said those things. Unlike Tatum now, Bird was 3.5 years older. Bird can be forgiven some of his language because such thigs were commonly said back then. If asked, I think Bird would not disavow calling out his team but would (rightly) disavow the misogynistic manner in which he chose to do it. Having said that, despite being younger, Tatum has more off the court maturity today than Bird did back then. Less than a year after calling out his team, Bird would get into a barfight on the eve of the playoffs and potentially, unprovably, cost his team a title. But in terms of mental toughness and maturity on the court, Bird showed he had it in 1984, Tatum has yet to show the same. (Which is different from saying he never will; he is only 24. And maybe he will this postseason.)

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Re barking at the refs and not getting back.. look at LeBron.. he’s done that his entire career.

Would be interesting to see how many times that’s actually happened.. same with the getting beat up floor on made baskets… my sense is it’s a molehill being made into a mountain.. the celts defense was beat straight up or on turnovers for most of the game.

Tatum missed 1:38 of game time… in that time Jaylen scored 5 points.. Tatum was back on the floor for the Jaylen three that closed it to one. He didn’t shoot the rest of the way. He had a foul and a turnover. And the Cs also had a shot clock turnover that I don’t remember. I thought it was a lot longer that he was out.. and they scored more.. but basically Jaylen took almost every shot in the 4th and didn’t miss many. The Strus 3 was really the killer… and then the parade of FTs for Miami really sealed it.

I think fortitude and grit are mostly about perseverance. (Forgive me if that's a little circular, Socrates might have a fit).

Basically, what do you do when you're down? Do you get back up and learn from your mistakes... or do you give up? It's as simple as that to me.

I think this Celtics team has proved again and again that they will get back up and keep fighting. That's true top to bottom. It's an impressive quality. This team was playing .500 ball, starting veterans who refused to buy in or play team defense, and turned it around in the second half of this season to become the best team in basketball by the numbers. Not only that, they beat two teams that were favorites to win the title -- teams that were led by two of the very best players the NBA has to offer. I can't say they'll go on to beat the Heat, because there's no doubt that the Heat are an extremely tough team themselves. I think the Celtics have more and better talent, but sometimes guys slump or lose their willpower. It's not a reflection on their character in the long-run.

Side bar: I know we're supposed to leave it alone, but please let me just say: my perspective has nothing to do with "virtue signaling" and everything to do with the work that I've done, which includes hundreds of hours answering the phone for suicide hotlines. There is no way around it: the way we talk about each other affects how people internalize their identities. It's no accident that LGBTQ+ people suffer higher rates of suicide. Language like "sissy" gets used to rationalize crimes against people who own those identities. Language like that makes those people feel like they don't belong in this world. Language like that leads these people to harm themselves and others to harm them. We're all only as safe as we feel we are.

The reason why I get so frustrated with the casual use of these slurs has nothing to do with "political correctness" and everything to do with marginalizing and threatening (whether unintentionally or intentionally) people who are already minorities. I don't mean to shame anyone -- or at least I shouldn't have, because it doesn't help. Only want to educate.

It's not that I don't find it FAIR to question Tatum's mental toughness/maturity/ability to lead his team to a championship, I just find it somewhat fruitless because it's an impossible question to answer until he actual does it...or down the road to look back and try to figure out why it never happened. Don't get me wrong, it's an internet message board and I totally understand why we do it...but it didn't dawn on me til this weekend why the convo seems to be going around in circles. Listening to Russillo discuss his thoughts on why Harden (mental) or Paul (physical) haven't gotten there yet makes a lot more sense to me at their ages than discussing why Tatum isn't there yet. When the same conversations could be had for Lebron, Curry, Durant, Jordan, etc at 24 I'm just not sure I get the relevance of said conversation. That said, and I hope it doesn't sound like I'm speaking out of both sides of my mouth here, but I still largely agree with everything you wrote in your latest post @Eddie Jurak. On the larger picture/positive side, one thing I've loved about both watching Tatum & Brown develop is I've loved watching both of them clearly put lots of work into turning weaknesses in their respective games into strengths. If they do indeed come up short this year because of some of the issues we've been discussing in this thread, I have zero doubt they will put the work to ATTEMPT to patch up those holes...sadly it still might not be enough.
On a side but slightly related note, I also have a lot of faith that Ime will learn a lot from this playoff run and apply it to the future as well.

Fishy1 said:

I think fortitude and grit are mostly about perseverance. (Forgive me if that's a little circular, Socrates might have a fit).

Basically, what do you do when you're down? Do you get back up and learn from your mistakes... or do you give up? It's as simple as that to me.

I think this Celtics team has proved again and again that they will get back up and keep fighting. That's true top to bottom. It's an impressive quality. This team was playing .500 ball, starting veterans who refused to buy in or play team defense, and turned it around in the second half of this season to become the best team in basketball by the numbers. Not only that, they beat two teams that were favorites to win the title -- teams that were led by two of the very best players the NBA has to offer. I can't say they'll go on to beat the Heat, because there's no doubt that the Heat are an extremely tough team themselves. I think the Celtics have more and better talent, but sometimes guys slump or lose their willpower. It's not a reflection on their character in the long-run.

Side bar: I know we're supposed to leave it alone, but please let me just say: my perspective has nothing to do with "virtue signaling" and everything to do with the work that I've done, which includes hundreds of hours answering the phone for suicide hotlines. There is no way around it: the way we talk about each other affects how people internalize their identities. It's no accident that LGBTQ+ people suffer higher rates of suicide. Language like "sissy" gets used to rationalize crimes against people who own those identities. Language like that makes those people feel like they don't belong in this world. Language like that leads these people to harm themselves and others to harm them. We're all only as safe as we feel we are.

The reason why I get so frustrated with the casual use of these slurs has nothing to do with "political correctness" and everything to do with marginalizing and threatening (whether unintentionally or intentionally) people who are already minorities. I don't mean to shame anyone -- or at least I shouldn't have, because it doesn't help. Only want to educate.

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Great fucking post.

I think the fact that this team was even in position to steal Game 3 shows their resilience. Yes, no Butler obviously played a role but they dug a 26 point hole and probably “should” have won. We’ve seen 60 win teams like the Suns completely wilt in a home Game 7.

This team doesn’t quit. Sometimes they play with their heads firmly up their own asses…but they don’t quit.

I expect a really good performance tonight. May not win because Miami is really good too but I’m confident they won’t hand a game over like they did on Friday.

jezza1918 said:

It's not that I don't find it FAIR to question Tatum's mental toughness/maturity/ability to lead his team to a championship, I just find it somewhat fruitless because it's an impossible question to answer until he actual does it...or down the road to look back and try to figure out why it never happened. Don't get me wrong, it's an internet message board and I totally understand why we do it...but it didn't dawn on me til this weekend why the convo seems to be going around in circles. Listening to Russillo discuss his thoughts on why Harden (mental) or Paul (physical) haven't gotten there yet makes a lot more sense to me at their ages than discussing why Tatum isn't there yet. When the same conversations could be had for Lebron, Curry, Durant, Jordan, etc at 24 I'm just not sure I get the relevance of said conversation. That said, and I hope it doesn't sound like I'm speaking out of both sides of my mouth here, but I still largely agree with everything you wrote in your latest post @Eddie Jurak. On the larger picture/positive side, one thing I've loved about both watching Tatum & Brown develop is I've loved watching both of them clearly put lots of work into turning weaknesses in their respective games into strengths. If they do indeed come up short this year because of some of the issues we've been discussing in this thread, I have zero doubt they will put the work to ATTEMPT to patch up those holes...sadly it still might not be enough.
On a side but slightly related note, I also have a lot of faith that Ime will learn a lot from this playoff run and apply it to the future as well.

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I largely agree with you, but if Tatum was putting up some good numbers and losing it's a little bit of a different story than putting up the stinkers he has put up. IOW, you're right that it is kind of impossible to answer unless he does it, but if Tatum goes down swinging this series and the Celts still lose I think it's a slightly different conversation vs. Tatum putting up a few stinkers and them losing.

lars10 said:

Tatum missed 1:38 of game time… in that time Jaylen scored 5 points.. Tatum was back on the floor for the Jaylen three that closed it to one. He didn’t shoot the rest of the way. He had a foul and a turnover. And the Cs also had a shot clock turnover that I don’t remember. I thought it was a lot longer that he was out.. and they scored more.. but basically Jaylen took almost every shot in the 4th and didn’t miss many. The Strus 3 was really the killer… and then the parade of FTs for Miami really sealed it.

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The Celtics went on a 12-0 run to cut the deficit to 1. Tatum didn't attempt so much as a shot, didn't get an assist, didn't get a rebound. Maybe, he did some things that do not show up in boxscores that were good.

However, what did he do? Here's the run:

• Smart 8-foot jumper, unassisted, at 6:17, 93-82.
• Adebayo offensive foul, drawn by Smart, at 5:47
• Tatum turnover, Oladipo steal, at 5:33, Tatum goes down in a heap
• Strus transition layup-attempt blocked by Brown at 5:29, while Tatum is still lying on the court in the Celtics offensive zone
• Williams missed three, Brown offensive rebound, Brown layup at 5:18, fouled by Oladipo and hits the and-1, 93-85, Tatum continued to lie on the court until the whistle for the Oladip foul. Pritchard in for Tatum.
• Oladipo missed jumper, Brown rebound, Brown 8-foot jumper at 4:54, 93-87, Miami timeout.
• Lowry turnover (Grant steal), Brown layup (assisted by Smart) at 4:14, 93-89.
• Tucker missed layup, Horford rebound, Brown fouled by Strus at 3:40. Tatum checks back in for Pritchard.
• Tatum gets tied up y Lowry for a jump ball at 3:25.
• Horford gains posession but misses, rebound to Bam, Tatum fouls Bam at 3:05.
• Lowry misses a jumper, Horford rebound, Brown hits a 3 (assist Smart) at 2:40, 93-92.
• Smart fouls Oladipo, Strus hits a 3 at 2:16, 96-92.
• Celtic turnover shot clock violation at 1:46.
• Bam jumper at 1:21, 98-92.
• Tatum turnover (bad pass stolen by Tucker) at 1:09.
• Grant fouls Bam at 1:07, Bam hits the free throws, 100-92 and good night.

His fingerprints were all over the last 6 minutes (minus the 2 he missed), and never in a good way.

tims4wins said:

I largely agree with you, but if Tatum was putting up some good numbers and losing it's a little bit of a different story than putting up the stinkers he has put up. IOW, you're right that it is kind of impossible to answer unless he does it, but if Tatum goes down swinging this series and the Celts still lose I think it's a slightly different conversation vs. Tatum putting up a few stinkers and them losing.

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Yeah, that also tracks. But even if Tatum lays another egg or two and they lose this series...regarding his future potential to lead a team to a title I'd be buoyed enough by his responses to his eggs this postseason so far (most specifically, that game 6 performance in Milwaukee). Also, I just think - using the reasoning he's cleared most hurdles placed in front of him so far - he will figure out how to draw a bit more contact on some of the plays he currently turns the ball over on and get a foul called instead...which IMO will go a fairly long way in helping out with some of the other issues as well.
Specifically regarding his game 3 stinker...question for those that are better at this than me - did he also lay an egg defensively (after Q1)? Using extremely basic numbers, he was on the floor for most of the last 3 quarters and they only gave up 70 points despite turning the ball over 17 times.

I re-read my earlier post and it reads much more negative than I intended it to be.

I think Tatum will have a fantastic game tonight. I believe in him as a player 100%.

My intention was to say that his last game was his worst of the season and I think it should be called out as such. When you factor in the fact that Butler was gone for the Heat (and will probably be back tonight) while Smart came back in for the Celtics (and will probably miss tonight) it makes it that much more frustrating that he was a complete 2nd half no show.

However, this team and Tatum have proven time and time again how resilient they are this year.

I still think they win this series and I’m not going to count them (or Tatum) out until they’ve lost 4 games in a series

jezza1918 said:

Yeah, that also tracks. But even if Tatum lays another egg or two and they lose this series...regarding his future potential to lead a team to a title I'd be buoyed enough by his responses to his eggs this postseason so far (most specifically, that game 6 performance in Milwaukee). Also, I just think - using the reasoning he's cleared most hurdles placed in front of him so far - he will figure out how to draw a bit more contact on some of the plays he currently turns the ball over on and get a foul called instead...which IMO will go a fairly long way in helping out with some of the other issues as well.
Specifically regarding his game 3 stinker...question for those that are better at this than me - did he also lay an egg defensively (after Q1)? Using extremely basic numbers, he was on the floor for most of the last 3 quarters and they only gave up 70 points despite turning the ball over 17 times.

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I agree with you, regardless of how this plays out I still would be hopeful for the future. But 1-2 more stinkers and a Heat series win in 5-6 games and it would feel less likely that they will eventually win a title with Tatum leading the way.

tims4wins said:

I agree with you, regardless of how this plays out I still would be hopeful for the future. But 1-2 more stinkers and a Heat series win in 5-6 games and it would feel less likely that they will eventually win a title with Tatum leading the way.

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Also fair...I was going to reference Lebron's games 4/5 against the Celtics in 2010 as a rebuttal until it dawned on me that I really don't want to see Tatum win titles for another franchise!

Tatum HAS to play much better than the other night, was a nightmare game across the board. But even with that, he’s averaging 27/6/6 on a 58% TS in these playoffs. We can absolutely win the title, but in doing so, they’d be doing something that almost never happens.

View: https://twitter.com/lissmx14/status/1525141400496615424?s=20&t=W7c9da_rHgEKy_kOqL5v9w

Eddie Jurak said:

The Celtics went on a 12-0 run to cut the deficit to 1. Tatum didn't attempt so much as a shot, didn't get an assist, didn't get a rebound. Maybe, he did some things that do not show up in boxscores that were good.

However, what did he do? Here's the run:

• Smart 8-foot jumper, unassisted, at 6:17, 93-82.
• Adebayo offensive foul, drawn by Smart, at 5:47
• Tatum turnover, Oladipo steal, at 5:33, Tatum goes down in a heap
• Strus transition layup-attempt blocked by Brown at 5:29, while Tatum is still lying on the court in the Celtics offensive zone
• Williams missed three, Brown offensive rebound, Brown layup at 5:18, fouled by Oladipo and hits the and-1, 93-85, Tatum continued to lie on the court until the whistle for the Oladip foul. Pritchard in for Tatum.
• Oladipo missed jumper, Brown rebound, Brown 8-foot jumper at 4:54, 93-87, Miami timeout.
• Lowry turnover (Grant steal), Brown layup (assisted by Smart) at 4:14, 93-89.
• Tucker missed layup, Horford rebound, Brown fouled by Strus at 3:40. Tatum checks back in for Pritchard.
• Tatum gets tied up y Lowry for a jump ball at 3:25.
• Horford gains posession but misses, rebound to Bam, Tatum fouls Bam at 3:05.
• Lowry misses a jumper, Horford rebound, Brown hits a 3 (assist Smart) at 2:40, 93-92.
• Smart fouls Oladipo, Strus hits a 3 at 2:16, 96-92.
• Celtic turnover shot clock violation at 1:46.
• Bam jumper at 1:21, 98-92.
• Tatum turnover (bad pass stolen by Tucker) at 1:09.
• Grant fouls Bam at 1:07, Bam hits the free throws, 100-92 and good night.

His fingerprints were all over the last 6 minutes (minus the 2 he missed), and never in a good way.

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I know.. but you said that the Celtics played much better when Tatum was out than when he was in.. I was just pointing out that he was only out for 1:38 and they only scored 5 points.. which was all Jaylen Brown. I'm not really disagreeing with you, I was really surprised that he was only out for that long, so the sample size was a lot shorter than I thought. I'm not disagreeing at all that he was a huge part of the problem.. especially with his turnovers late... and the fact that he didn't shoot.

Why Ime didn't put in PP for at least a five minute stretch is beyond me... or even White to try and get some energy on D.

RorschachsMask said:

Tatum HAS to play much better than the other night, was a nightmare game across the board. But even with that, he’s averaging 27/6/6 on a 58% TS in these playoffs. We can absolutely win the title, but in doing so, they’d be doing something that almost never happens.

View: https://twitter.com/lissmx14/status/1525141400496615424?s=20&t=W7c9da_rHgEKy_kOqL5v9w

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Is the Finals win by Wade.. THE finals where it was absolutely tilted for him to win?

lars10 said:

Is the Finals win by Wade.. THE finals where it was absolutely tilted for him to win?

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It was, and he had a still pretty dominant Shaq, as well.

From the Globe:

Tatum has at least six turnovers in five of Boston’s 14 playoff games and has an NBA-high 60 overall. His average of 4.3 per game is the highest among remaining players.

128 said:

From the Globe:

Tatum has at least six turnovers in five of Boston’s 14 playoff games and has an NBA-high 60 overall. His average of 4.3 per game is the highest among remaining players.

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Is there some kind of advanced metric/stat that gives a TO/usage rate number? Because a quick glance at the past few post seasons the leaders in TO's/game it littered with all-NBA players. And champions. I'm not trying to defend Tatum here or pretend 4.3/game is fine, but just trying to place it in context because (and I could very much be wrong here) the raw numbers don't seem to tell us all that much.

jezza1918 said:

Is there some kind of advanced metric/stat that gives a TO/usage rate number? Because a quick glance at the past few post seasons the leaders in TO's/game it littered with all-NBA players. And champions. I'm not trying to defend Tatum here or pretend 4.3/game is fine, but just trying to place it in context because (and I could very much be wrong here) the raw numbers don't seem to tell us all that much.

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Luka has 52 in 13 games, although he handles the ball more than Tatum. Tatum's care with the ball needs to be much better, but the raw numbers don't necessarily tell the entire story.

Fishy1 said:

I think fortitude and grit are mostly about perseverance. (Forgive me if that's a little circular, Socrates might have a fit).

Basically, what do you do when you're down? Do you get back up and learn from your mistakes... or do you give up? It's as simple as that to me.

I think this Celtics team has proved again and again that they will get back up and keep fighting. That's true top to bottom. It's an impressive quality. This team was playing .500 ball, starting veterans who refused to buy in or play team defense, and turned it around in the second half of this season to become the best team in basketball by the numbers. Not only that, they beat two teams that were favorites to win the title -- teams that were led by two of the very best players the NBA has to offer. I can't say they'll go on to beat the Heat, because there's no doubt that the Heat are an extremely tough team themselves. I think the Celtics have more and better talent, but sometimes guys slump or lose their willpower. It's not a reflection on their character in the long-run.

Side bar: I know we're supposed to leave it alone, but please let me just say: my perspective has nothing to do with "virtue signaling" and everything to do with the work that I've done, which includes hundreds of hours answering the phone for suicide hotlines. There is no way around it: the way we talk about each other affects how people internalize their identities. It's no accident that LGBTQ+ people suffer higher rates of suicide. Language like "sissy" gets used to rationalize crimes against people who own those identities. Language like that makes those people feel like they don't belong in this world. Language like that leads these people to harm themselves and others to harm them. We're all only as safe as we feel we are.

The reason why I get so frustrated with the casual use of these slurs has nothing to do with "political correctness" and everything to do with marginalizing and threatening (whether unintentionally or intentionally) people who are already minorities. I don't mean to shame anyone -- or at least I shouldn't have, because it doesn't help. Only want to educate.

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I agree, fantastic post. Further, thank you for being on the other end of those phones.

My initial attempt (which went sideways 35 ways from jump) was to call out the "up in arms" behavior regarding one term while allowing other terms which imply basically the same thought process. Policing words is not the same as changing viewpoints or actions. Being unable to get there without going sideways is on me - but I won't apologize for trying to make the point. I can however work at posting better while trying to make those points.
--------------
WRT basketball: I will state up front that people display different behaviors, traits in different situations. Any statements made about athletic performance should be confined to that venue. If I wanted one athlete to save my life with the success of his play - I'm choosing Lawrence Taylor. As a fan, I couldn't root for him. My compliments about his play do not also infer that he is a positive to me off the field. The inverse is also true - I criticized JB for not adapting to Oladipo stripping him 5-6 times in the 4th quarter, just a futile attempt to use the same approach. That doesn't change the fact that I would vote for him post career as a Senator should he roll that way. These terms we are trying to use have books written about them individually, companies pay massive amounts of money to glean that knowledge from psychologists.

• Perseverance: the Cs and Tatum seem to have coming out their ears. I think that is as you describe - getting up again. Regardless of the final outcome of this season - they have demonstrated that repeatedly.
• Toughness: What do you do when you are punched in the mouth? Responding in the moment - not an hour from now, nor tomorrow but the next trip down the court - that is toughness. Digging your heels in and fighting back while something overwhelming is happening. I think Tatum and the Cs have SOME of that - in football we see terms surrounding the playoff run like "battle hardening" leading up to the final superbowl test. That hardening for the Cs is different than the perseverance they needed early in season sticking with Udoka's changes for the teams expectations for style of play. Blowing out the league post January by 10 points a game was important - but by definition does not harden, does not impart toughness because a) there were fewer close games due to the level of play and b) the stakes were different. The playoff series with BKN and especially the long one with MIL was a hardener, but that doesn't mean the team was done - the 3rd quarter in G1 MIA showed they didn't respond to their own standards when being overwhelmed.
• Grit: I'll defer to anyone else on this one, I think in sports terms maybe it's like sandpaper. If your opponent is wearing sandpaper, you simply wouldn't enjoy and therefore don't want to play against them. Assuming that definition is palatable, I don't think Tatum has (or even needs) sandpaper in his game. I think every team needs an element of it, but not every player has to have it. I think Ainge brought in Morris for example to ensure the Cs had a certain amount of it when the Js were younger. We know the DPOY has it, lol.

So beyond some additional toughness, what is missing in Tatum's play? Allen Iverson played on the court way I am picturing in my mind. Smaller physically, but that didn't matter. He was going to get from point A to point B and you weren't going to stop him. It was more than physical dominance, it was knowing that not only was he going to beat you going around you in 10 different ways you couldn't stop, if necessary he was going through you. At his size, that approach caused him to just wreak havoc on his body. At Tatum's size I don't think that would be an issue. I personally want to see Tatum let other players know, that if necessary he is going to go through them. More frequently he needs to choose not to Eurostep around a player, but go through them, so the next time he comes in they are dreading the drive. Not Giannis level battering ram, that's not a good fit for him. But his opponents should know that he has a deep bag to work with (they already do), but one of those options will be going through them. The moment he walks on the court, other players should know. Some great players do not work this way - I understand that. It's what Tatum is missing from being THE star in a galaxy of stars. That unstoppable force in a field of immovable objects. If Tatum doesn't harness that in his game he will still be an incredible player that will be a joy to watch for years to come. It might also mean that he has a KD in OKC existence, where they never get over the hump, unless there is additional growth around him (TL, Grant improve, maybe another guard who can shoot but also defend). Personally, I'm hoping for him to develop an occasional Incredible Hulk alter ego that allows him to just go through a few people when the situation allows/demands it. So put whatever label on it one wants. Remember that 1st year playoff dunk on Lebron? Not only did he go at him, after the play he went and bumped Lebron as well. He has it in him, it's not on the court enough. That moment, that's what I want him reaching for (without the taunting bump after the play).

Let's me be clear, this doesn't imply that I want him just putting his head down and running over a player and getting called for charges (though additional charges will come as a result).

128 said:

From the Globe:

Tatum has at least six turnovers in five of Boston’s 14 playoff games and has an NBA-high 60 overall. His average of 4.3 per game is the highest among remaining players.

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This isn’t great but I don’t think it’s terrible. The only players on teams left that have the ball more than him are Curry, Luka, and Butler.

Again, not ideal but I don’t think it’s some huge news or anything

tbb345 said:

This isn’t great but I don’t think it’s terrible. The only players on teams left that have the ball more than him are Curry, Luka, and Butler.

Again, not ideal but I don’t think it’s some huge news or anything

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it's 33% higher than his regular season figures and would have been the 2nd highest in the NBA during the regular season. Its also been about the only thing that's kept this team down, and he's been a major contributor to it.

Tatum had 7 TO in game 7 against MIL and was incredibly impactful in helping the C's win.

For some reason the other night he was much more passive on the floor than at any point I'd seen all season. I'm confident it's a one off, and he'll be great tonight.

As I said earlier, I was at the game, was shocked by how passive he played, was critical of it in real time, but the idea anyone can come to some sort of evaluation of his toughness or any other personal characteristic is insane. I do think that the Celtic offense works best when game flow runs through him and not Brown or Smart, but i don't think that's some sort of crazy observation - he's a top player in the league, we want him ball dominant ideally unless the other team is completely taking him away.

Honestly, I think the domination by Spoelstra of the head coaching matchup was as prevalent a reason for the Miami victory as Jayson Tatum, but if Tatum had played well, it wouldn't have mattered that Ime struggled terribly with the lineup most of the night. It's a players league, after all.

I look forward to celebration in this thread later this evening.

4 6 3 DP said:

Tatum had 7 TO in game 7 against MIL and was incredibly impactful in helping the C's win.

For some reason the other night he was much more passive on the floor than at any point I'd seen all season. I'm confident it's a one off, and he'll be great tonight.

As I said earlier, I was at the game, was shocked by how passive he played, was critical of it in real time, but the idea anyone can come to some sort of evaluation of his toughness or any other personal characteristic is insane. I do think that the Celtic offense works best when game flow runs through him and not Brown or Smart, but i don't think that's some sort of crazy observation - he's a top player in the league, we want him ball dominant ideally unless the other team is completely taking him away.

Honestly, I think the domination by Spoelstra of the head coaching matchup was as prevalent a reason for the Miami victory as Jayson Tatum, but if Tatum had played well, it wouldn't have mattered that Ime struggled terribly with the lineup most of the night. It's a players league, after all.

I look forward to celebration in this thread later this evening.

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How exactly did Ime struggle with the lineup though? He basically made no changes for almost the entire game. He changed up the lineup in the first quarter a couple times.. and a little in the third, but basically the entire fourth was the same lineup other than the injuries and right at the very end. Not sure how Spoelstra gets a nod here other than the fact that Ime basically did nothing to change pretty much anything...to the point that it was odd.

Fishy1 said:

The "sissy" stuff is not only stupid, it's misogynistic and homophobic. I thought this board was better than that bullshit, but of course it isn't.

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It's really not and it's weird that people still believe it is. At least it's generally called out - but it happens frequently.

RetractableRoof said:

No, that would describe the quality of his play. I'm looking for the way to characterize the WAY he played, i.e., he played sans balls.

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Exhibit 53b. This kind of stuff happens allllll the time.

As to Tatum, he's done nothing but respond to bad games, bad tendencies, etc. Superstars have bad games. 24-year-old superstars are sometimes not as consistent as you'd like them to be. But his bounce back stats have been well discussed.

Aren't Sansaballs slacks for fat people?

I suppose we should be relieved that this thread has gone dormant. Very good game from Tatum. Not great, because the three-ball was pretty awful. He really seems pot-committed to faking that shoulder injury, I guess.

jmcc5400 said:

I suppose we should be relieved that this thread has gone dormant. Very good game from Tatum. Not great, because the three-ball was pretty awful. He really seems pot-committed to faking that shoulder injury, I guess.

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Yeah 31/8/5 on a 67% TS is pretty sweet, was unstoppable once he got inside the paint. Defensively was just as good as the other end, too.

Some of the threes were ugly as hell, but I’m glad that the one he hit was the last one. Pure as hell too, so hopefully he figured something out mechanically.

That was a great game by Tatum. He asserted himself on both ends, finishing through contact despite his injury and took control of the game early. The whole affair was a slugfest and Tatum is the one player who managed to score with any sort of efficiency. His overall body of work throughout these playoffs continues to impress.

Tatum with a game high +37. Despite 1-7 from 3 which is likely attributable to his stinger (and enough bs in questioning this injury - the guy has been tough as nails this post-season consistently logging huge minutes) he was easily the most consistent offensive player on the court.
White took some of the pressure off early scoring the first 7 points but then returned to form. Jaylen was a miserable 5-20.
This was a rock fight through and through yet despite that Tatum dropped 31 points. So big kudos to him.
But…he wasn’t the most important Celtic on the court last night. That was TL. He imposed his will more than any other player and reduced Miami’s offense to the perimeter where the C’s did a much better job contesting shots. He’s a game changer who provided relief for Tatum from his defensive responsibilities and some space to focus on getting his offensive mojo back.
Honestly if there is one takeaway here for the NBA it’s to space these games out a bit. Having just one day off after a grueling Bucks series and then only a day off between each game has got to be completely exhausting. Everyone is perplexed as to why these games have been erratic but it seems pretty clear that injuries and exhaustion are having a major impact on the quality of play. Better to have fewer games off in round 1 and 2 and get the best from the surviving teams with an extra travel day or two.

Made the point somewhat tongue-in-cheekily during the game but he can be absolutely dominant playing a “Melo” game in the paint using his size and strength and a dose of patience to find daylight and get to the line. He’s not as big as Melo but a similar skillset is there for when the shot isn’t falling. Hell, a lot of people said Melo was his upside coming out of college when they didn’t know he would also be a 40% outside shooter and great defender.

He was really effective last night getting defenders isolated and spinning/driving his way to the hoop when they overcommitted—the standard Miami individual D is to place yourself on the opponents back as if you are their tight-fitting jacket, which can be exploited under the right circumstances.

DeJesus Built My Hotrod said:

Let's get back to the other part of this thread that is odious - the knee-jerk reaction to Tatum having a poor ECF game when the opposing team is prepared, focused and equipped to stop him.

Those questioning Tatum's toughness are ignoring a large sample size of an extremely durable player who takes a lot of punishment on both ends of the floor. Yet he leads all remaining players in mpg while also playing in the second most (tied with a bunch of others including Jaylen) games this post-season. Despite his struggles on Saturday evening he is fourth overall in scoring of all remaining players and he has done more heavy lifting than any of them - save for maybe Butler - in terms of defense in the playoffs.

I would bet that Bird would take Tatum as a player or even teammate any day - even after that last game.

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Tatum is second in total regular season + playoff minutes (3,334) behind Mikal Bridges (3,354).

Remaining teams' leaders:

DAL: Dorian Finney-Smith (3,254)
GSW: Andrew Wiggins (2,790)
MIA: Tyler Herro (2,525)

Remaining teams' stars:

DAL: Luka Doncic (2,776)
GSW: Stephen Curry (2,682)
MIA: Jimmy Butler (2,426)

Likely getting named 1st team all nba tonight, which is cool for him.

So is he back to being a no brainer top 10 player and fringe top 5? Or does he still have too many no shows?

Looking at his game log, I'd say he's had 2 games where he was a "no show" this playoffs. People can argue what a "no show" is. 2 out of 15 doesn't seem like a lot to me. Obviously we'd rather it be 0 or 1, but it's not like he disappears as a reoccurring act. And whenever he does lay a dud, he responds in a big way the following game.

I don't know if he's in my top 5. He might be but I'd have to put some thought into it. He's definitely in my top 10 and I don't have to do any thinking.

Cesar Crespo said:

I don't know if he's in my top 5. He might be but I'd have to put some thought into it. He's definitely in my top 10 and I don't have to do any thinking.

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Giannis, Jokic and Embiid are still ahead of him.

On paper, Tatum's game looks more complete than Luka's given the former's edge on defense (as has been lengthily litigated in this thread). But in practice, Luka doesn't have the stinkers in his playoff game log that Tatum does. Until Tatum becomes more consistent, I'm taking Luka.

That puts Tatum in the 5-8 range with Curry, Morant and Butler (or am I overrating Butler?). At the moment, I'd put him at the top of this group at #5, but it's highly debatable.

Going into the playoffs, you would have likely put Durant and CP3 over him, but I think it's hard to make that case now. LeBron and AD are in the mix, but it's hard to place those guys over Tatum today given age, injuries and the fact that they're watching the playoffs at home.

Edit: Trae and DeRozan in the mix as well.

I think he's solidly in the 6-9 range. Almost every non top 5 player has no shows, and he sneaks into the top 5 maybe only if the injured players don't come back close to where they were. Giannis, Jokic, Embiid are locks. Healthy Kawhi is a lock. Then it's murky - is KD still better? Luka? I think the public does consider those 2 as above Tatum though there are plenty of analytics that argue otherwise. What about Motivated Playoff Lebron? I think Tatum's overall game puts him above Steph or healthy Dame or healthy AD for sure but say that out loud and there are sure to be a few complaints. That's 10 that could be ahead, but I don't think all of them are. The rest of the best are healthy PG13, Butler, Trae, Ja, Booker, KAT and I think it's clear that Tatum is better than those guys.

Top 5 without a doubt. #4 to be exact and I prefer him over Embiid. Luca #5.

Rustjive said:

I think he's solidly in the 6-9 range. Almost every non top 5 player has no shows, and he sneaks into the top 5 maybe only if the injured players don't come back close to where they were. Giannis, Jokic, Embiid are locks. Healthy Kawhi is a lock. Then it's murky - is KD still better? Luka? I think the public does consider those 2 as above Tatum though there are plenty of analytics that argue otherwise. What about Motivated Playoff Lebron? I think Tatum's overall game puts him above Steph or healthy Dame or healthy AD for sure but say that out loud and there are sure to be a few complaints. That's 10 that could be ahead, but I don't think all of them are. The rest of the best are healthy PG13, Butler, Trae, Ja, Booker, KAT and I think it's clear that Tatum is better than those guys.

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To me, there's too much uncertainty around whether we ever see either of the bolded again. But, otherwise, I mostly agree...