Celtics vs. Bucks, Round 2 Discussion

lexrageorge · May 12, 2022

Cesar Crespo said:
They do this against other teams and still win. You can't do that shit against a good team like the Bucks and expect a W. Yes, they lost the game because the Bucks are a good basketball team. Is it that hard to give opposing teams credit?

Not every Celtics loss is the Celtics beating themselves or on the refs.

The Bucks being good and the Celtics being sloppy aren't mutually exclusive things. Are the Bucks not a good basketball team? How'd they win the title last year?

The Bucks are an excellent team. If they win the series, I see them being the favorites to repeat, especially if Middleton returns.

But it's extremely frustrating to see Celtics players failing to get back on D in order to bark at the refs. It's an unnecessary and ineffective activity, and the fact that the Bucks are an excellent team means the Celtics need to have the discipline to stop doing that. Had they gotten back on D on 1 or 2 of those 4 drives in the 4th quarter, the Celtics would have been lauded for gutting out a tough game after withstanding a furious comeback by the Bucks. The path not taken....

JCizzle · May 12, 2022

This continues to haunt me. Any awareness and you get Derrick White WIDE OPEN for a corner three to tie the game in that situation.

Leon Trotsky · May 12, 2022

The loss sucked, no question, but I don't quite understand why people think this was the like the worst loss in the history of sports. It was not far off from the inverse of just one game before, when the Bucks had a 10 point lead with seconds left in the 3rd (not to mention the Bucks almost blowing a huge lead in the 4th in game 3 too). These are two really good teams that are really well matched and taking it to each other. Can't hang out heads about that.

Mystic Merlin · May 12, 2022

Lol that would be an absurd pass to execute there.

The screenshots are misleading, the game and clock move really fast in those full court 5-6 seconds left scenarios.

Cellar-Door · May 12, 2022

One thing I do worry a bit about.

Marcus has been a much better PG than anyone expected, but...... I don't think he's been great (or good) in close and late execution. They really needed the PG in the late 4th to settle things down, run offense, etc. and Marcus didn't. On the play where he got blocked by Jrue (terrific play), Ime was HEATED that he didn't run the ATO correctly and just freelanced it.

mcpickl · May 12, 2022

Cellar-Door said:
One thing I do worry a bit about.

Marcus has been a much better PG than anyone expected, but...... I don't think he's been great (or good) in close and late execution. They really needed the PG in the late 4th to settle things down, run offense, etc. and Marcus didn't. On the play where he got blocked by Jrue (terrific play), Ime was HEATED that he didn't run the ATO correctly and just freelanced it.

Ime was heated, but I don't think it was at Smart.

Looked to me like both Smart and Ime were gesturing to Horford that he was supposed to set the pin down for Horford much earlier.

After the play was over, Ime was still gesturing at Horford and Tatum.

I think Smart did exactly what he was supposed to do, but the inbounds pass was meant to go to Tatum at the top after Horford picked his guy. But after Horford didn't move, then Tatum didn't move, so White had to inbound to Smart since he was the only guy moving and they had no timeouts left.

jezza1918 · May 12, 2022

Cellar-Door said:
One thing I do worry a bit about.

Marcus has been a much better PG than anyone expected, but...... I don't think he's been great (or good) in close and late execution. They really needed the PG in the late 4th to settle things down, run offense, etc. and Marcus didn't. On the play where he got blocked by Jrue (terrific play), Ime was HEATED that he didn't run the ATO correctly and just freelanced it.

Why can't they let White run the PG position when they are both in there down the stretch of games?

Eddie Jurak · May 12, 2022

Leon Trotsky said:
The loss sucked, no question, but I don't quite understand why people think this was the like the worst loss in the history of sports. It was not far off from the inverse of just one game before, when the Bucks had a 10 point lead with seconds left in the 3rd (not to mention the Bucks almost blowing a huge lead in the 4th in game 3 too). These are two really good teams that are really well matched and taking it to each other. Can't hang out heads about that.

The frustrating part is that they basically layed down and tried to run out the clock, making poor decisions all the while, and (evidently) Ime was powerless to do anything about it.

https://www.celticsblog.com/2022/5/12/23068625/missed-a-golden-opportunity-10-takeaways-from-boston-celtics-milwaukee-bucks-game-5

With 8:15 to play, Payton Pritchard drove for a bucket on Grayson Allen to put Boston up 98-87. On the ensuing defensive possession, Al Horford stole the ball from Giannis Antetokounmpo and got fouled while recovering the loose ball with 8:01 remaining.

From that point forward, the Bucks outscored Boston 23-9 to win the game.

Cellar-Door said:
One thing I do worry a bit about.

Marcus has been a much better PG than anyone expected, but...... I don't think he's been great (or good) in close and late execution. They really needed the PG in the late 4th to settle things down, run offense, etc. and Marcus didn't. On the play where he got blocked by Jrue (terrific play), Ime was HEATED that he didn't run the ATO correctly and just freelanced it.

Sticking with the “final 8:01” part, the foul by Giannis Antetokounmpo was the Bucks fourth team foul of the final period. Boston had an 11-point lead and free throws for 8:01.

The Celtics took four free throws the rest of the way. All drawn on two shooting fouls calls.

Four free throws when they were in the bonus for more than eight minutes. At home. While holding a double-digit lead.

That’s a staggering lack of an attacking mindset.

View: https://twitter.com/_Andrew_Lopez/status/1524579392021798917?s=20&t=ayZvravxV3_IkFZTbUeyFA

Andrew Lopez: Per Second Spectrum, the Celtics’ ball movement stagnated in the fourth. Here’s the Celtics’ passes and average touch length per quarter: 1Q: 73 passes, 3.2 seconds 2Q: 71 passes, 3.3 seconds 3Q: 69 passes, 2.9 seconds 4Q: 58 passes, 4.6 seconds

Boston went into this extreme kill-the-clock style of play with a ton of time left in the fourth quarter. They rarely took shots with more than five or six seconds left on the shot-clock. And most of them came out of isolation sets where one player, usually Jayson Tatum, held the ball.

Boston took zero three-pointers in the fourth quarter. Yes, the Celtics got some looks at the rim, but they also shot 2-of-6 on long two-pointers in the final 8:01 of the game. It was ISO after ISO into contested, late-clock long twos.

Not only did Milwaukee score 10 points off turnovers in the fourth quarter, they added another five in transition in the period.

The maddening thing? Nine of those points, plus another three-pointer in non-transition, came on plays where the Bucks hit three-pointers while the Celtics were complaining to the officials.

Twice, Jayson Tatum got caught up in barking at the refs, while Jaylen Brown and Grant Williams got caught once apiece. Because they weren’t defending, Milwaukee was able to find shots in advantage situations.

In a game that was very fairly officiated, with almost no controversy, that’s ridiculous. 12 points in the fourth quarter of a tight game because players engaged the officials instead of playing defense. It’s inexplicable and unacceptable.

That's a team that best itself in a range of inexcusably stupid ways.

Eddie Jurak · May 12, 2022

Cellar-Door said:
One thing I do worry a bit about.

Marcus has been a much better PG than anyone expected, but...... I don't think he's been great (or good) in close and late execution. They really needed the PG in the late 4th to settle things down, run offense, etc. and Marcus didn't. On the play where he got blocked by Jrue (terrific play), Ime was HEATED that he didn't run the ATO correctly and just freelanced it.

He was fine (more than fine) at the end of game 4.

Cellar-Door · May 12, 2022

jezza1918 said:
Why can't they let White run the PG position when they are both in there down the stretch of games?

White isn't any better at that than Smart, White's best quality is being the guy who takes the pass and makes the quick next one. He's good off ball.
Marcus isn't bad late game, he's just not a top PG in that situation, he needs to focus on getting the offense moving. Some of it is also Tatum/Brown going glacial when they touch it.

mcpickl said:
Ime was heated, but I don't think it was at Smart.

Looked to me like both Smart and Ime were gesturing to Horford that he was supposed to set the pin down for Horford much earlier.

After the play was over, Ime was still gesturing at Horford and Tatum.

I think Smart did exactly what he was supposed to do, but the inbounds pass was meant to go to Tatum at the top after Horford picked his guy. But after Horford didn't move, then Tatum didn't move, so White had to inbound to Smart since he was the only guy moving and they had no timeouts left.

Hmm maybe that was it, I thought looking at it that Smart decided not to run a play, but maybe it was that once the play was broken he just decided to go it himself.

mcpickl · May 12, 2022

Cesar Crespo said:
Honestly, has the phrase "well officiated game" ever been uttered on SoSH?

Since you asked earlier in the thread, I'd like to utter the phrase that last night was a well officiated game.

Refs let them play for the most part, no foul trouble, no free throw parade, play ball.

Ed Hillel · May 12, 2022

Leon Trotsky said:
The loss sucked, no question, but I don't quite understand why people think this was the like the worst loss in the history of sports. It was not far off from the inverse of just one game before, when the Bucks had a 10 point lead with seconds left in the 3rd (not to mention the Bucks almost blowing a huge lead in the 4th in game 3 too). These are two really good teams that are really well matched and taking it to each other. Can't hang out heads about that.

It's the way it happened. It's not like they just started missing open looks, they literally gave the ball away on a handful of possessions, didn't get back on D because they were arguing with officials, and couldn't execute a defensive rebound to save their lives. That was a Godawful loss, as bad a Celtics loss in a big game as I can remember. And don't bring up 2010, Joey Crawford totally changed the complexion of that game by calling things tight as a tick's anus after letting the teams batter each other the first three quarters of the game.

Hopefully they prove me wrong as LeBron did in Game 6 in 2013 in the Garden, but I just flat out don't believe in this core to get over the hump until I see it. I have developed a Sisyphus complex when it comes to watching them.

mcpickl said:
Since you asked earlier in the thread, I'd like to utter the phrase that last night was a well officiated game.

Refs let them play for the most part, no foul trouble, no free throw parade, play ball.

Agreed, outside of the 3rd quarter, where they called a bunch of touch fouls on the Celtics for some reason.

riboflav · May 12, 2022

kelpapa said:
The Lakers had home court against the Celtics in the 2010 finals. They split the first two, battled back and won one on the road, then lost game 5 at home. Do you remember what happened in that series?

I’m sure this was pointed out to you already but the lakers lost game 5 at Boston. 2-3-2 in the finals. No offense but you should know that.

mcpickl · May 12, 2022

Cellar-Door said:
Hmm maybe that was it, I thought looking at it that Smart decided not to run a play, but maybe it was that once the play was broken he just decided to go it himself.

I had to go back and look at it.

You can see both Smart and Ime gesturing to Horford immediately before Smart even starts to break for Al to go set the pick.

Then after the play Ime gestures to Horford again, then the clip ends with him pointing to the corner where Hotford was supposed to be.

Video and Shotcharts | Stats | NBA.com

Ed Hillel · May 12, 2022

Also, Brad needs to get his ass at practice and tell the team that he has informed Ime the next person who argues with an official and doesn't get back on D will be immediately removed from the game and benched. And Brad needs to do it as a shot at Ime, as well as the players, who apparently cannot get this through their heads. I don't care if it's Tatum, you take him out in front of everyone else and set the example.

jezza1918 · May 12, 2022

mcpickl said:
I had to go back and look at it.

You can see both Smart and Ime gesturing to Horford immediately before Smart even starts to break for Al to go set the pick.

Then after the play Ime gestures to Horford again, then the clip ends with him pointing to the corner where Hotford was supposed to be.

Video and Shotcharts | Stats | NBA.com

Can you walk me through how play was supposed to happen? Is Al meant to set the pick on Portis, which wouldn't leave Holiday free to leave Brown?

Leon Trotsky · May 12, 2022

Eddie Jurak said:
That's a team that best itself in a range of inexcusably stupid ways.

All true. But even with all that, it took incredible play and a lot of luck for Mil to win. The Giannis 3 was a lot of luck, as well as, you could argue, him missing the 2nd free throw and Portis getting a tough put back. The C's were tired, just like the Bucks were the game before, and it came down to the wire. Good games.

riboflav · May 12, 2022

Mueller's Twin Grannies said:
Okay, leave out the favored team/city stuff.

Is JT getting superstar treatment in the league? If not, why?

Because he often avoids contact instead of going through it.

joe dokes · May 12, 2022

mcpickl said:
I had to go back and look at it.

You can see both Smart and Ime gesturing to Horford immediately before Smart even starts to break for Al to go set the pick.

Then after the play Ime gestures to Horford again, then the clip ends with him pointing to the corner where Hotford was supposed to be.

Video and Shotcharts | Stats | NBA.com

My default is that Smart was probably running the play correctly, and if he ended up with the ball is was because someone else wasn't.

Auger34 · May 12, 2022

I’ll be the turd in the punch bowl and say I didn’t think it was a well officiated game. I think in the context of how awful the officiating was in the series prior, it looked good but it was still pretty poor overall. I don’t think it’s one of the main reasons (or even a top 10 reason) why the Celtics lost but still didnt love the foul disparity

mcpickl · May 12, 2022

jezza1918 said:
Can you walk me through how play was supposed to happen? Is Al meant to set the pick on Portis, which wouldn't leave Holiday free to leave Brown?

AL is meant to set the pick on Wes Matthews, allowing to ball to be inbounded to Tatum going downhill on Portis.

They ran this play two possessions earlier, I believe the idea was to fake that exact play again, by having Smart head that way then double back the way he did so instead of inbound to Smart, then a pick, then a pass to Tatum, they were going directly to Tatum.

Here's how the original version looked.

(1) BFBQBGURUMEAT on Twitter: "@Tom_NBA They ran similar motion out of same inbounds set with 37 seconds left in game https://t.co/yf5fKZYZfH" / Twitter

Going earlier gives Giannis much less time to challenge at the rim, he probably wouldn't be a factor at all.

Cesar Crespo · May 12, 2022

lexrageorge said:
The Bucks are an excellent team. If they win the series, I see them being the favorites to repeat, especially if Middleton returns.

But it's extremely frustrating to see Celtics players failing to get back on D in order to bark at the refs. It's an unnecessary and ineffective activity, and the fact that the Bucks are an excellent team means the Celtics need to have the discipline to stop doing that. Had they gotten back on D on 1 or 2 of those 4 drives in the 4th quarter, the Celtics would have been lauded for gutting out a tough game after withstanding a furious comeback by the Bucks. The path not taken....

It's definitely frustrating. If the C's had shown more discipline, there is a very good chance they are up 3-2. They didn't though, and I think discipline is a skill. It's easy to say the C's would have won had they limited the mistakes, but discipline is sometimes a team weakness. Is the game NBA live still a thing? Anyway, my point is discipline would be one of the categories a player would be rated in. If a player with a 54/100 in discipline makes a stupid mistake, you can't really chalk it up to them beating themselves. I mean, you could. I don't know. I could see it both ways with discipline.

Actually, this probably makes my point better. If you have 2 teams that are pretty even, the more disciplined team is probably going to win more often than not. So are those 2 teams actually even at all?

reggiecleveland · May 12, 2022

RSN Diaspora said:
I posted this in the game thread last night, but this seemed to encapsulate the Celtics on the boards, especially on offense. Under four to shoot, so time was of the essence, but when you have literally no one at the hoop, you will never get an offensive board:

View attachment 51538

This is the NBA today. This is why Westbrook can simply demand his teammates allow him to go from an 8 rebound-a-game guy to to 10-11 by letting him collect the many uncontested boards. Look at Westbrooks's stats, his O rebounds stay the same but he gets a jump or drop in D boards depending on the team he is on. His o rebounds dropped .3 per game with the Lakers, but d rebounds dropped 3.9. Lost of those infield fly rebounds belong to LeBron. The NBA is full of uncontested rebounds because transition is so deadly.

Auger34 · May 12, 2022

We can talk about discipline and smart basketball until we are blue in the face and I understand why that’s a topic with how badly the Celtics boxed out…

But, I really think it just comes down to it being a “make or miss” league. Giannis was shooting like 5% for the series from 3 and buries 2 in a row at pivotal moments in the 4th quarter. I think everyone would argue that was decidedly not smart basketball from Giannis but he stepped up and made them. Wes Matthews hit some heavily contested 3’s. The guy is completely washed as an offensive player but managed to hit those shots when it counted. Meanwhile, on the other end Tatum missed some in rhythm, open 3’s that he normally drills. Peyton Pritchard airballed an open corner 3. As a shooter, Pritchard has chunks of Wes Matthews in his stool but didn’t matter for this one night.

If the Celtics can rebound (please come back TimeLord!) and win the turnover battle, the Bucks don’t have a shot. Easier said than done, but I still feel confident the Celtics win this series in 7. Minor setback for a major comeback

Just a bit outside · May 12, 2022

Celtics just need to play. Forget the refs, forget it is the playoffs, just play. They are the better team with Middleton out and just need to play the full 48 minutes. It is a make or miss league but even with the Bucks shooting in the fourth quarter the Celtics win if they just play the game the way they have for the last 3 months.

DeJesus Built My Hotrod · May 12, 2022

All I know is that dissecting a single trip down the floor or highlighting a few sequences in a one possession playoff game is a fool's errand.

The last Cs offensive possession was indeed frustrating however you can go back and find so many other inefficient or wasted opportunities. I simply choose not to - its done and nothing changes the outcome. But they are there if you choose to look - I just don't see any value in going down that rabbit hole.

These teams are pretty closely matched so close game(s) going forward seem likely. If anyone can blow the other out, I'd lean Celtics though. Its not my base case. They can win the next two but it won't be easy on them, or us.

reggiecleveland · May 12, 2022

They quit running too early. Always a tough decision when to play the clock, and just one play goes differently at the D end and playing the clock was the right call.

It is interesting to me that FIBA games have developed to the point at the highest levels teams don't play the clock with the lead until inside a minute. Now the stated objective of the FIBA rules committee is to make teams keep scoring until the very end. To me, this series has been reffed more like FIBA, so much physical play allowed it is tough to score in the 1/2 court. My observation of the Suns and Warriors is they keep the pace up and take transition shots all game, and at the end. I am not so sure that isn't more than style, and a decision about avoiding the 1/2 court D.

fairlee76 · May 12, 2022

riboflav said:
Because he often avoids contact instead of going through it.

Yes. Or he pre-emptively flails and then expects a call. It would be hilarious to watch if he was on an opposing team.

Cesar Crespo · May 12, 2022

Just a bit outside said:
Celtics just need to play. Forget the refs, forget it is the playoffs, just play. They are the better team with Middleton out and just need to play the full 48 minutes. It is a make or miss league but even with the Bucks shooting in the fourth quarter the Celtics win if they just play the game the way they have for the last 3 months.

I think the C's are better too but some of the Middleton loss is offset by no TL.

I'd rather be in the Bucks position but it's still anyone's series. Hope the C's pull it out because I think the winner of this series determines the champion.

reggiecleveland · May 12, 2022

fairlee76 said:
Yes. Or he pre-emptively flails and then expects a call. It would be hilarious to watch if he was on an opposing team.

Especially if the guy on the opposing team did not run back on D.

I absolutely despise the deification of Micahel Jordan. Last Dance makes North Korean publicists think "you know that went a bit far in the whole mythmaking thing" but, young players could watch the beatings MJ took before winning championships to understand why he got away with a blatant pushoff at the end of his career.

dhellers · May 12, 2022

Just a bit outside said:
Celtics just need to play. Forget the refs, forget it is the playoffs, just play. They are the better team with Middleton out and just need to play the full 48 minutes. It is a make or miss league but even with the Bucks shooting in the fourth quarter the Celtics win if they just play the game the way they have for the last 3 months.

I would add that means they should trust themselves, and play their winning ballMovement/manMovement game. If that means they have a couple of extra turnovers that's a price worth paying, considering the alternative is to repeatedly get nothing useful out of a possession.

Bleedred · May 12, 2022

reggiecleveland said:
They quit running too early. Always a tough decision when to play the clock, and just one play goes differently at the D end and playing the clock was the right call.

I agree, and I would expand that to not just that they quit running, but that they stopped playing their effective offense way too soon. I know you're a coach, and I've coached quite a bit myself (HS level aged teams, but not HS). It's my view that a team should continue to run their offense late into the 4th quarter rather than trying to play the clock, on the theory that all 5 players are engaged, know the offense well, know their responsibilities and will not feel as much pressure by having to go to the "play the clock" offense, which can be a bit unorthodox. Granted, NBA teams have structure to their "play the clock" offenses, but for my money, I'd prefer that they cycle through their regular sets late into the 4th, with some emphasis on getting the ball into JT's hands or if he's hot, JB's hands, but not to the exclusion of running conventional offense a majority of that time.

wade boggs chicken dinner · May 12, 2022

Eddie Jurak said:
Andrew Lopez: Per Second Spectrum, the Celtics’ ball movement stagnated in the fourth. Here’s the Celtics’ passes and average touch length per quarter: 1Q: 73 passes, 3.2 seconds 2Q: 71 passes, 3.3 seconds 3Q: 69 passes, 2.9 seconds 4Q: 58 passes, 4.6 seconds

The Cs haven't learned how to play with a lead. There's a fine line between not rushing and letting the clock run down versus being forced into tough shots.

It's very hard. Frankly, MIL did it when they had the lead in the last game too. They completely stopped moving down the stretch.

Bleedred said:
I agree, and I would expand that to not just that they quit running, but that they stopped playing their effective offense way too soon. I know you're a coach, and I've coached quite a bit myself (HS level aged teams, but not HS). It's my view that a team should continue to run their offense late into the 4th quarter rather than trying to play the clock, on the theory that all 5 players are engaged, know the offense well, know their responsibilities and will not feel as much pressure by having to go to the "play the clock" offense, which can be a bit unorthodox. Granted, NBA teams have structure to their "play the clock" offenses, but for my money, I'd prefer that they cycle through their regular sets late into the 4th, with some emphasis on getting the ball into JT's hands or if he's hot, JB's hands, but not to the exclusion of running conventional offense a majority of that time.

I don't know what the answer is but the problem is when a team "just runs their sets," if they turn the ball over or take quick shots and the other team comes back, the coach will get crucified.

That's why NBA games often come down to which team can create the best shots when the shot clock is running down and the defense is geared up to stop him. MIL has the better guy unfortunately.

wade boggs chicken dinner · May 12, 2022

tbb345 said:
The big adjustment that Bud made in the last game was playing Portis and Giannis together. Both Al and Grant aren’t great rebounders and continually got abused on the boards.

If TimeLord can play in Game 6, then Bud will have to adjust again because the Celtics will be much more capable of defending the Portis/Giannis pairing

If TL plays, one of GW or Al is probably sitting, which removes on of our two best defenders on GA. MIL is not a great matchup for TL on the defensive end.

joe dokes · May 12, 2022

wade boggs chicken dinner said:
If TL plays, one of GW or Al is probably sitting, which removes on of our two best defenders on GA. MIL is not a great matchup for TL on the defensive end.

If he just gets Theis's minutes (and maybe a spot on the lane during a crucial free throw), the team will be better for it.

wade boggs chicken dinner · May 12, 2022

joe dokes said:
If he just gets Theis's minutes (and maybe a spot on the lane during a crucial free throw), the team will be better for it.

Theis got 11:29, went 5-5 from the field and 1-1 from the 3P line. I doubt TL is going to top that.

JakeRae · May 12, 2022

mcpickl said:
Ime was heated, but I don't think it was at Smart.

Looked to me like both Smart and Ime were gesturing to Horford that he was supposed to set the pin down for Horford much earlier.

After the play was over, Ime was still gesturing at Horford and Tatum.

I think Smart did exactly what he was supposed to do, but the inbounds pass was meant to go to Tatum at the top after Horford picked his guy. But after Horford didn't move, then Tatum didn't move, so White had to inbound to Smart since he was the only guy moving and they had no timeouts left.

This is a significant component of most situations where people complain about Smart doing too much. Smart will willingly step in and stretch his skills when his teammates fail to execute their roles. That means sometimes he is playing outside his skill and ends up looking bad. But Smart rarely does this when his teammates are doing their jobs. He’s not trying to be an alpha scorer or “the guy” but he’s not going to stand idly by if there isn’t a guy. He also, like with heaves, doesn’t care if that makes him look bad or hurts his stats.

I think the other decision I would question a bit is the timeout after the Portis put back. I thought at the time it was risky because if we didn’t convert, we wouldn’t have enough time to foul and then get the ball up the court for a clean look. If we had not called a timeout and pressed off the make, we likely could’ve gotten a decent look quickly against a Bucks defense that was in semi-transition while preserving enough time that if we needed to foul, we’d have 3-4 seconds left to run a sideline play for a last second three. I get why we called the timeout, and it’s the standard play, but also disappointing after Ime had great success with the opposite approach against Brooklyn.

Edit: I should add that if semi-transition didn’t work, we would have the timeout left to reset and get a last shot to win. I think the odds of getting a second look that isn’t awful with 12 seconds after a play/miss/foul/full court scenario is incredibly low, as we saw play out. The odds of getting a decent look in 7 seconds when the Bucks cannot afford to foul down 1 with 12 seconds is much much better and preserves the ATO option for the 3 to force OT.

Auger34 · May 12, 2022

wade boggs chicken dinner said:
If TL plays, one of GW or Al is probably sitting, which removes on of our two best defenders on GA. MIL is not a great matchup for TL on the defensive end.

He can rebound effectively and allows Al to rest more to save his legs.
Grants been so bad offensively I am not sure that his defense on GA offsets that.

Bleedred · May 12, 2022

Smart had an unfortunate 4-5 minutes at the end of yesterday's game, but he has played pretty fantastically IMO in this series and I'm a frequent critic of his. His defense has been excellent, his shooting surprisingly solid and his floor generalship mostly very good. If I have one quibble, I wish he would stop reacting to contact as if he has a torn ligament, broken nose or other severe malady. It's happened a few times in this series, but particularly one time late in the 4th yesterday (maybe around the 4 or 5 minute mark?), where he takes some contact and turns from the play as if he is seriously hurt or injured (obviously to try to draw a foul). Last night, he took himself completely out of the play, and Milwaukee effectively played 5 on 4, forcing the other Celtics into scramble mode, resulting in an uncontested three from the right side that hit the bottom of the net. As I said, I think Marcus has been playing excellent ball, but this feigning of injury or pain hurts the team one at least 1 or 2 possessions per game, IMO. Last night, it was a critical possession.

reggiecleveland · May 12, 2022

Bleedred said:
I agree, and I would expand that to not just that they quit running, but that they stopped playing their effective offense way too soon. I know you're a coach, and I've coached quite a bit myself (HS level aged teams, but not HS). It's my view that a team should continue to run their offense late into the 4th quarter rather than trying to play the clock, on the theory that all 5 players are engaged, know the offense well, know their responsibilities and will not feel as much pressure by having to go to the "play the clock" offense, which can be a bit unorthodox. Granted, NBA teams have structure to their "play the clock" offenses, but for my money, I'd prefer that they cycle through their regular sets late into the 4th, with some emphasis on getting the ball into JT's hands or if he's hot, JB's hands, but not to the exclusion of running conventional offense a majority of that time.

Well said, especially the bolded.

JakeRae · May 12, 2022

wade boggs chicken dinner said:
If TL plays, one of GW or Al is probably sitting, which removes on of our two best defenders on GA. MIL is not a great matchup for TL on the defensive end.

We aren’t really switching a ton, so I’m not sure it matters that much so long as one of them is on the court, which they would be. TL should solidify our rebounding and provides a safety valve to make Giannis’ life a little harder when he inevitably gets to the rim. He also gives us an extra element offensively with his ability to provide vertical spacing and finish when the Bucks’ bigs are helping on dribble penetration. This isn’t the best matchup for TL, but 25 minutes from him translates to no minutes from Theis, 5 fewer minutes from Horford to keep him fresh, and shifting Grant back into his natural role as a bench 3&D player and may help reset his mindset to press less on offense and just be an outlet shooter.

joe dokes · May 12, 2022

wade boggs chicken dinner said:
Theis got 11:29, went 5-5 from the field and 1-1 from the 3P line. I doubt TL is going to top that.

Only 1 or 2 of those FG's were not-dunks. At the same time he got 1 rebound, and was anchored to the floor several times while everyone around him was taking flight to get others. (eyeball test. If there are numbers out there that suggest more effectiveness than I'm giving him credit for, then I stand corrected.)

Devizier · May 12, 2022

I think it’s worth re-emphasizing, as @Cesar Crespo has, that the Celtics are going up against the defending champs here! They lost composure late, but the Bucks had a lot to do with that. By no means are the Celtics out of this, but it’s going to be a grind no matter what.

128 · May 12, 2022

reggiecleveland said:
They quit running too early. Always a tough decision when to play the clock, and just one play goes differently at the D end and playing the clock was the right call.

It is interesting to me that FIBA games have developed to the point at the highest levels teams don't play the clock with the lead until inside a minute. Now the stated objective of the FIBA rules committee is to make teams keep scoring until the very end. To me, this series has been reffed more like FIBA, so much physical play allowed it is tough to score in the 1/2 court. My observation of the Suns and Warriors is they keep the pace up and take transition shots all game, and at the end. I am not so sure that isn't more than style, and a decision about avoiding the 1/2 court D.

That's interesting. Why, in FIBA, are the final minutes of games so different? Are teams penalized somehow for playing the clock?

BigSoxFan · May 12, 2022

Devizier said:
I think it’s worth re-emphasizing, as @Cesar Crespo has, that the Celtics are going up against the defending champs here! They lost composure late, but the Bucks had a lot to do with that. By no means are the Celtics out of this, but it’s going to be a grind no matter what.

Just like the Heat had a lot to do with it in the bubble, etc…

I’m ready for this team to make that leap and they were oh so close last night. Avoiding the road close out against the defending champs who happen to have the best player on the planet who also gets every call…won’t be easy. We’ll see how they respond.

wade boggs chicken dinner · May 12, 2022

JakeRae said:
We aren’t really switching a ton

We aren't? Looks to me that we're switching pretty much everything. That's why GA can pick who he goes up against.

DourDoerr · May 12, 2022

128 said:
Al's tip-in would have forced OT. No guarantee the C's would have gone on to win that game. But, yes, the C's have made tough luck.

When the legend becomes fact, print the legend. Damn you and your facts.

reggiecleveland · May 12, 2022

128 said:
That's interesting. Why, in FIBA, are the final minutes of games so different? Are teams penalized somehow for playing the clock?

You can call only two timeouts in the last 3 minutes, and you tend to save those to advance the ball. Defence on the ball is allowed to be more physical, so it is tougher to penetrate. The three point line is closer, and easier, making comebacks more likely, but also 3pt shooters being just 18 inches closer to the hoop make post entry passes a bit easier. Fiba refs tend to call more defensive fouls on post defenders too. At the top FIBA levels the best individual players tend to be in the NBA, leveling the field a bit. Zone defence rules also allow you to double team star players even without the ball. Also FIBA has a "zero step" which is basically an extra step if player picks up the ball driving, again this favors the attacking team. A big one is any foul in transition that is not a legit play on the ball is "Unsportsmanlike" two shots and the ball. This is way more strict than the clear path rule. FIBA teams also tend to be really skilled at passing and everyone can make 3s. It is just the culture and style that scoring is a 5 players thing so, slowing it down negates the best way teams want to play.

So coaches can't stop the game, your players need to know what to do, and if you slow it down you may get trapped, and it will be harder to get your star the ball, unless you keep the pace up. Going from NCAA rules back to FIBA as a coach I hated it. I loved getting the ball over half, calling timeout and using my genius to win the game with a set play. OR subbing O/D every possession the last 2 minutes. Now I can't call timeout, and my players have to keep scoring if we want to win, and if we play well I end up having my timeouts left, because I saved them, and since we got stops I didn't even use them. It flies by.

128 · May 12, 2022

reggiecleveland said:
You can call only two timeouts in the last 3 minutes, and you tend to save those to advance the ball. Defence on the ball is allowed to be more physical, so it is tougher to penetrate. The three point line is closer, and easier, making comebacks more likely, but also 3pt shooters being just 18 inches closer to the hoop make post entry passes a bit easier. Fiba refs tend to call more defensive fouls on post defenders too. At the top FIBA levels the best individual players tend to be in the NBA, leveling the field a bit. Zone defence rules also allow you to double team star players even without the ball. Also FIBA has a "zero step" which is basically an extra step if player picks up the ball driving, again this favors the attacking team. A big one is any foul in transition that is not a legit play on the ball is "Unsportsmanlike" two shots and the ball. This is way more strict than the clear path rule. FIBA teams also tend to be really skilled at passing and everyone can make 3s. It is just the culture and style that scoring is a 5 players thing so, slowing it down negates the best way teams want to play.

So coaches can't stop the game, your players need to know what to do, and if you slow it down you may get trapped, and it will be harder to get your star the ball, unless you keep the pace up. Going from NCAA rules back to FIBA as a coach I hated it. I loved getting the ball over half, calling timeout and using my genius to win the game with a set play. OR subbing O/D every possession the last 2 minutes. Now I can't call timeout, and my players have to keep scoring if we want to win, and if we play well I end up having my timeouts left, because I saved them, and since we got stops I didn't even use them. It flies by.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lnu5vMfPtbw

Check out the final minute of this title-deciding game. It unfolds pretty much in real time. It's a startling reminder of how many stoppages there are in NBA games today.

NomarsFool · May 12, 2022

As was mentioned during the game by the announcers, the Bucks are having excellent success quickly pushing the ball up the floor on made baskets. So, while the Celtics are busy hugging each other and giving high fives and all that, the Bucks are putting themselves in position to score.

Contrast that with the Celtics, who after every time the Bucks score are walking it back up the floor.

That's on top of the silly ref arguing, which of course needs to stop.

Celtics vs. Bucks, Round 2 Discussion

Who you got?

Celts in 4

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Bucks in 4

Bucks in 5

Bucks in 6

Bucks in 7

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