The Mainboard MLB Lockout Thread

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YTF

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Recent history doesn’t bear this out. What is it about 162 games that would prevent this? Also, what does being the best over the course of a 162-game season even get you in today’s MLB?

I don’t know, it’s very weird to watch this conversation where some people in this thread are arguing that baseball is losing fans left and right and others are then arguing that nothing about the game should change. I don’t know that expanded playoffs would bring young fans in and casual fans back, but it’s an idea.
Kind of difficult to comment on recent history when there's been just one season that would be semi close as a comp to your suggestion. I never claimed that 162 game schedule (BTW I'm not stuck on 162) would prevent it. It is my opinion that if you add more teams to the playoff picture and drastically reduce the regular season schedule there is a greater opportunity for more than 6 teams to have the best six records in either division. I'll be happy to let any math experts here look into it and If I'm wrong, that's fine. This isn't a hill that I'm going to die on, it's an opinion. FWIW, I'm not seeing a whole lot of folks saying that nothing about the game should change. What I am seeing is a lot of discussion about various levels of change. From universal DH, to playoff formats, to banning the shift, length of game, extra innings, added double headers, length of schedule, service time and compensation issues, etc... I think we'd be hard pressed to find anyone who's not open to some sort of change.
 

ifmanis5

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Absolutely this.
View: https://twitter.com/lindseyadler/status/1498774160121729030

Rob Manfred, Dec. 2: "Simply put, we believe that an offseason lockout is the best mechanism to protect the 2022 season. We hope that the lockout will jumpstart the negotiations and get us to an agreement that will allow the season to start on time."
Next proposal: 43 days later
It was an owner-imposed lockout. It's an owner-imposed delay to the regular season. Every player I have spoken to this week wants to play — under what they consider to be a fair deal.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Honest question: WHY NOT? I mean, if there's no present collective bargaining agreement, what's to stop those players from playing? Is there a rule within the minor league teams? Or is it a MLB rule? If it's a MLB rule, just break it. I mean, right now there ARE no MLB rules since they have no CBA, right?
I imagine it's an MLBPA rule. Being on the 40-man means being in the MLBPA, and the owners have locked out the MLBPA. If players like Duran and Downs want to play, they'd have to leave the union. That ain't gonna go over too well with their teammates. Think about how MLBPA treated scabs during the 1995 strike. Duran playing for Worcester is arguably the lockout equivalent of being a scab.
 

curly2

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And again, the question no one is asking: if this is essentially about the owners trying to put restraints on the few mega-spenders, why was Steve Cohen approved 25-4 when it was crystal clear what he’d do if approved?
Maybe they figured if he took at tax hit at the staggering increase that MLB first proposed, that he would would learn his lesson and fall into line after that. And they needed to get the team out of the Wilpons' hands.

Plus the giant tax bill he paid would fatten their coffers.
 

JimD

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Just repeating that MLB games have never been lost because of an owner lockout. That streak seems to be in real jeopardy here. I get that big-market teams have wanted to show solidarity in the negotiations to this point, but it will be borderline shocking to me if ownership of Sox, Dodgers, Yankees, etc. go along with this for the long haul. John Henry will definitely feel heat from city and the sportswriters at his own paper. None of this seems to be his style.
The big-market teams will feel the heat, but they have only limited power here - they are outnumbered by their small-market and/or small-minded peers.
 

ehaz

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Manfred about to speak. Passan being interviewed on ESPN ahead of it.
 

Kliq

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Can someone explain the CBT sticking point to me like I'm five years old? I do not understand it.
 

BringBackMo

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I agree. Definitely limited power. But so far they have silently assented to this. What I'm wondering is when (if) that ends. And what it looks like when (if) it does.
 

DeadlySplitter

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Can someone explain the CBT sticking point to me like I'm five years old? I do not understand it.
Players want it to rise significantly year to year to reflect inflation in the sport. They also want lesser penalties for going over so it's less of a de facto salary cap. Owners do not really want any changes.
 

Kliq

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Players want it to reflect inflation in the sport, owners do not
But what does that mean? The small-market owners do not want the CBT tax to increase, which would therefore keep a stricter penalty on bigger-spending teams, and theoretically keep costs down as teams resist the tax?

Is there a difference between the CBT tax and the luxury tax?
 

DeadlySplitter

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I edited my post with more details, at least with how I see it.

CBT and luxury is the same thing, "competitive balance" tax
 

ehaz

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Manfred: "We can't budge on the CBT because we have a payroll disparity problem." OK so what about the clubs spending $40M per year on payroll?
 

Kliq

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Manfred: "We can't budge on the CBT because we have a payroll disparity problem." OK so what about the clubs spending $40M per year on payroll?
Yeah like, why is there a payroll disparity?

A buddy of mine is INSISTING that the union only cares about the stars, which is why they are stuck on the CBT issue because it presumably benefits stars the most. I have not been following that closely, but that sounds incorrect, right?
 

Ale Xander

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Manfred: "We can't budge on the CBT because we have a payroll disparity problem." OK so what about the clubs spending $40M per year on payroll?
Then perhaps put in a salary floor, Rob.

Manfred is Robbing baseball fans (and the players)
 

soxhop411

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Manfred went out of his way to say that the last offer was not their best and final. Why did you cut off negotiations before you gave them your best offer? What a clown show.
View: https://twitter.com/alexspeier/status/1498784778107199494

Manfred: "It's important to look at the patterns of CBT increases over the last several agreements." Had been a huge increase in the 2007-11 CBA, then minimal ones in the last two. Manfred says clubs not prepared to change course on how CBT operates.
“The concerns of our fans are at the very top of our consideration list.” — Rob Manfred, on the day MLB canceled regular-season games, during a league-initiated lockout
View: https://twitter.com/JeffPassan/status/1498784146671427590

Manfred: "If it was solely within my ability or the ability of the clubs to get an agreement, we'd have an agreement. The tough thing about this process is we have to get an agreement from both parties."
View: https://twitter.com/alexspeier/status/1498785357881655296
View: https://twitter.com/michaelFhurley/status/1498785205393444870


If Manfred and the owners thought they could rely on the reporters who cover the sport to help them with their misinformation campaign when they blame the players for this.

yah. That’s not going to happen.
 
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RedOctober3829

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Yeah like, why is there a payroll disparity?

A buddy of mine is INSISTING that the union only cares about the stars, which is why they are stuck on the CBT issue because it presumably benefits stars the most. I have not been following that closely, but that sounds incorrect, right?
It benefits everyone if the CBT is higher. All the players are asking for is the payrolls to be in line with both inflation and the rising revenues coming from TV and other places. Teams START with a $100-$150 million in revenues before one pitch is thrown. Go look at some teams' payrolls and tell me they are putting money back into their teams in a proper way.
 

YTF

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Minimum salary seems to be the easiest thing to solve since we're talking a few thousand bucks per team per year.

I'm surprised they haven't solved that.
Yeah, from here it seems to be the easiest fix in these negotiations. Either one side cedes to the other as a good faith gesture or you just pull a page from American Pickers, do the dance and split the difference.
 

Kliq

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It benefits everyone if the CBT is higher. All the players are asking for is the payrolls to be in line with both inflation and the rising revenues coming from TV and other places. Teams START with a $100-$150 million in revenues before one pitch is thrown. Go look at some teams' payrolls and tell me they are putting money back into their teams in a proper way.
Agreed, that is why it doesn't make any sense to me to put this on the players, if the CBT is really the major sticking point.
 

snowmanny

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Manfred: "If it was solely within my ability or the ability of the clubs to get an agreement, we'd have an agreement. The tough thing about this process is we have to get an agreement from both parties”

I’m definitely stealing this one. It applies to so many situations at work and in life in general.
 

Pablo's TB Lover

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It's my birthday and have been drinking away the afternoon so pardon my French, but...

Fuck John Henry.
Fuck Tom Werner.
Fuck Rob Manfred.

That is all.
 

Ale Xander

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It's my birthday and have been drinking away the afternoon so pardon my French, but...

Fuck John Henry.
Fuck Tom Werner.
Fuck Rob Manfred.

That is all.
I don’t think we can blame Henry here (at least relatively and before we know more specifically to Henry) They are likely the 2nd closest to the players wishes after the Dodgers.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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I know Manfred hasn't gone so far as to declare an impasse, but outright cancelling games already seems a pretty big step in that direction. I mean, there's nothing stopping the two sides from continuing to meet tonight and tomorrow and the next day to keep working toward a deal. Doing so, combined with some creative re-scheduling, could still keep the prospects of a full 162 game schedule alive, at least for a few more days. Instead, they're apparently just going to cancel week by week and if/when they reach an agreement, play the remainder of the uncancelled schedule, and be okay with teams will playing an unequal number of games (in total and in terms of who they play when).

GJGE
 

normstalls

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I know Manfred hasn't gone so far as to declare an impasse, but outright cancelling games already seems a pretty big step in that direction. I mean, there's nothing stopping the two sides from continuing to meet tonight and tomorrow and the next day to keep working toward a deal. Doing so, combined with some creative re-scheduling, could still keep the prospects of a full 162 game schedule alive, at least for a few more days. Instead, they're apparently just going to cancel week by week and if/when they reach an agreement, play the remainder of the uncancelled schedule, and be okay with teams will playing an unequal number of games (in total and in terms of who they play when).

GJGE
That's a good point. If they eventually come to an agreement and decide to start on May 1 for example and just play out the schedule from there, it would be a logistical challenge to say the least to have every team play the same number of games. Having to re-build a reduced game schedule from scratch also seems like it would be a challenge. I am curious how they plan to solve this potential problem.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Agreed, that is why it doesn't make any sense to me to put this on the players, if the CBT is really the major sticking point.
It's my understanding that only three teams (BOS, LAD, and PHI) exceeded the luxury tax last year. The teams that are near or over the cap are typically signing big name free agents to very large contracts.

Obviously, any increase in the luxury tax will create further payroll imbalance. Obviously, that can be compressed from the bottom, as suggested upthread, but that's probably a non-starter with the small-market owners unless the top were compressed a good deal too (one of the owners' offers addressed this if I remember correctly). That was rejected by the players.

There were also proposals by the players to give lots more money to players who weren't eligible for arbitration. Those were rejected by the owners.
 

YTF

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That's a good point. If they eventually come to an agreement and decide to start on May 1 for example and just play out the schedule from there, it would be a logistical challenge to say the least to have every team play the same number of games. Having to re-build a reduced game schedule from scratch also seems like it would be a challenge. I am curious how they plan to solve this potential problem.
No matter the eventual start of the season, the overwhelming majority of teams should have the same amount of games scheduled from that point going forward. It shouldn't be much more of a matter of 1-3 games difference for the rest of the teams. It should be easy enough to correct that via double headers and get everyone to the same amount of games.
 

JOBU

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Between this and the Rivian (price increase) news, I have been having a horseshit day. Fuck management. Always and forever.
 

axx

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What does “last, best offer” mean?
Before this deadline of cancelling games. It's going to be awhile before they continue negotiations.

Agreed, that is why it doesn't make any sense to me to put this on the players, if the CBT is really the major sticking point.
It's not. Sure sounds like they are far apart on just about everything.

They could lift it at some point sure, but there's no way the season would be completed without a strike happening.
 

Murderer's Crow

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Manfred: "If it was solely within my ability or the ability of the clubs to get an agreement, we'd have an agreement. The tough thing about this process is we have to get an agreement from both parties”

I’m definitely stealing this one. It applies to so many situations at work and in life in general.
I think that was a sloppy way of implying not all the owners are in agreement on each concession.
 

Philip Jeff Frye

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Pat Ragazzo, beat reporter for the Mets for SI, and blue checkmarked, reporting the lockout could be over by tomorrow.
View: https://twitter.com/ragazzoreport/status/1498690914318958594


Sources: MLB and MLBPA are hopeful that they will agree on a new CBA by tonight or tomorrow by the latest They’ve made significant progress but there are still some details to hammer out
I'm late reading through all of this but knowing what I know now, this tweet reads like Neville Chamberlin proclaiming "Peace in our time!" as he steps off the plane from Munich in 1938.
 

Murderer's Crow

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I don’t. He is talking about the players as the other party, not differences among his group of owners. Ownership is one party.
Yea, I might be reading too much into what I think Manfred is saying because he's always all over the place. I just imagine sitting in that room and Oakland is arguing about the minimum threshold while Hal is fighting to keep the CBT lower.
 

edoug

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I'm late reading through all of this but knowing what I know now, this tweet reads like Neville Chamberlin proclaiming "Peace in our time!" as he steps off the plane from Munich in 1938.
Yes it does. You can't trust Nazis or MLB owners.
 

JimD

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Between doomscrolling the Ukraine thread and having Rob 'Lucy' Manfred pull the football away after getting our hopes up yesterday, this has been a pretty crappy day. But hey, the global pandemic that we've been living through for two years is in a sort of remission after killing just under a million Americans, so we've got that going for us, I guess.
 
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