Rolling the dice - Patriots OTL staffing plan

BigJimEd

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With Ziegler and McDaniels off to Vegas figured we could split out Patriots coaching and front office discussion.

Ziegler was the director of player personnel (i.e. second in command to Belichick) and was with the Patriots for 9 years.
Possible internal replacements include Elliot Wolf who interviewed with Chicago for their GM job. Wolf was director of football operations in GB and assistant GM in Cleveland before coming to NE in 2020. Other internal candidates for an increased role are college scouting director Matt Groh and everyone's favorite Matt Patricia.

McDaniels had a mixed reputation with Pats fans as I think most OCs do. Ithink he is one of the better ones. We'll see how he did as he's coach.

Most popular pick to replace him is Bill O'Brien. Obviously BOB had previous success here and spent the last season with Bama. An obvious fit.
Other names that have been suggested include Adam Gase, Joe Judge, Chad O'Shea, Schuplinski as well as internal candidates Caley and Lombardi.


It's likely some from the front office and/or coaching staff follow Ziegler and McDaniels to Vegas. Does McDaniels tab one of the current assistants to be his OC? Mayo as DC? We'll have to wait and see.


One loss that seems certain is Ivan Fears who appears to be retiring. Another long time coach in the Scarnecchia mold. 25 years with Patriots. Impossible to replace that institutional knowledge. Sunseri did work with the RBs this season but not a lot of experience there.
 
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amfox1

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It's likely some from the front office and/or coaching staff follow Ziegler and McDaniels to Vegas. Does McDaniels tab one of the current assistants to be his OC? Mayo as DC? We'll have to wait and see.
On the assistants, I would expect the OC/DC not to come from NEP. Wink Martindale is most likely as DC. I could easily see Schuplinski as OC. No idea on the front office folks but would guess than not more than one additional person comes from NEP.
 

BigJimEd

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Wink would be a good choice. I do think McDaniels would want a veteran at DC and don't really expect Mayo.
 

YTF

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With Ziegler and McDaniels off to Vegas figured we could split out Patriots coaching and front office discussion.

Ziegler was the director of player personnel (i.e. second in command to Belichick) and was with the Patriots for 9 years.
Possible internal replacements include Elliot Wolf who interviewed with Chicago for their GM job. Wolf was director of football operations in GB and assistant GM in Cleveland before coming to NE in 2020. Other internal candidates for an increased role are college scouting director Matt Groh and everyone's favorite Matt Patricia.

McDaniels had a mixed reputation with Pats fans as I think most OCs do. Ithink he is one of the better ones. We'll see how he did as he's coach.

Most popular pick to replace him is Bill O'Brien. Obviously BOB had previous success here and spent the last season with Bama. An obvious fit.
Other names that have been suggested include Adam Gase, Joe Judge, Chad O'Shea, Schuplinski as well as internal candidates Caley and Lombardi.


It's likely some from the front office and/or coaching staff follow Ziegler and McDaniels to Vegas. Does McDaniels tab one of the current assistants to be his OC? Mayo as DC? We'll have to wait and see.


One loss that seems certain is Ivan Fears who appears to be retiring. Another long time coach in the Scarnecchia mold. 25 years with Patriots. Impossible to replace that institutional knowledge. Sunseri did work with the RBs this season but not a lot of experience there.
I can't imagine Judge even getting a sniff at the OC job. He was special teams coach before landing the HC job with the Giants and that was a disaster. IMO there was zero growth in that Giants offense while he was there. It wasn't all his fault, but I can't for a moment imagine him getting a crack at developing Mac Jones.
 

BigJimEd

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Judge wouldn't be my choice but his name is out there and Belichick is a big fan.

Could see McDaniels hiring him in some capacity for the Raiders as well.
 

GB5

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is it above Judge's pay grade to come back and coach special teams here? I know BB is loathe to fire any coach working for him, but Accord really had a rough go of it at a position BB has a special affinity for.

What becomes of Flores if he doesnt land a HC job somewhere. I can dream, can't I. My nightmare is if Mayo leaves and he opens the door to BB to come back as DC, or assistant HC, and BB doesnt want to downgrade his son.

I wouldnt expect MCD to raid Bill's staff. On Bill's tv special with Saban, he made a big point of one thing that galls him more than anything else is when he helps a coach from his staff get a HC position elsewhere, and they turn around and take other members of his staff, hurting him. Bill and MCD have been toghther long enough where I think MCD wouldnt do that. However I thought the same of Flores, and took O'Shea right off the top.
 

Super Nomario

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I wouldnt expect MCD to raid Bill's staff. On Bill's tv special with Saban, he made a big point of one thing that galls him more than anything else is when he helps a coach from his staff get a HC position elsewhere, and they turn around and take other members of his staff, hurting him. Bill and MCD have been toghther long enough where I think MCD wouldnt do that. However I thought the same of Flores, and took O'Shea right off the top.
O'Shea had been WR coach for 10 seasons and there was no possibility of advancement as long as McDaniels was around - note that, in addition to McDaniels blocking the OC position, McDaniels is also listed as QB coach, generally considered the plum positional coach job as a stepping stone to a coordinator position. I'm thinking it depends on the circumstance. O'Shea had his sights set higher than WR coach and NE wasn't going to offer that, I imagine all parties were fine with him moving on. The impression I get is Belichick hates guys recruiting his staff above all else; that seemed to be the issue with Mangini and with the Easterby kerfuffle a couple years back. But if a guy like Ziegler (who was never going to get the GM title here) wants to go, I think that's different.

On the assistants, I would expect the OC/DC not to come from NEP. Wink Martindale is most likely as DC. I could easily see Schuplinski as OC. No idea on the front office folks but would guess than not more than one additional person comes from NEP.
Martindale makes a ton of sense. Ed Donatell was also in his staff in Denver. Gase was, too, and Eric Studesville. Patricia could be a DC option for McDaniels, too. The Raiders FO already has one prominent ex-Pat in DuJuan Daniels; he was a National Scout for the Pats and currently works as Assistant Director of Player Personnel. Bob Quinn is available, as is Thomas Dimitroff.
 

Eddie Jurak

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With Ziegler and McDaniels off to Vegas figured we could split out Patriots coaching and front office discussion.
I'm kind of surprised by the culture of "not only am I leaving the team, but I am taking a handful of other coaches with me on my way out." I thought that sort of things was discouraged.

Count me as one who would like to see O'Brien back as OC. As someone with HC experience - and a lot of recent experience outside New England - he would be well poised to take over the offense and Mac's development and to allow Bill to focus more on areas where his input is more important: defense and ST.
 

Justthetippett

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I'm kind of surprised by the culture of "not only am I leaving the team, but I am taking a handful of other coaches with me on my way out." I thought that sort of things was discouraged.

Count me as one who would like to see O'Brien back as OC. As someone with HC experience - and a lot of recent experience outside New England - he would be well poised to take over the offense and Mac's development and to allow Bill to focus more on areas where his input is more important: defense and ST.
I’d like to see BOB combined with a young, up and coming QB coach to ease the transition when BOB inevitably starts looking for a head job in a year or two, either in college or the NFL. They probably have that internally with Lombardi or Caley, or maybe there’s someone else from Saban’s staff that wants to come north.
 

sodenj5

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Just saw Adam Gase’s name in the first post and had myself a chuckle.
 

BaseballJones

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I'm kind of surprised by the culture of "not only am I leaving the team, but I am taking a handful of other coaches with me on my way out." I thought that sort of things was discouraged.

Count me as one who would like to see O'Brien back as OC. As someone with HC experience - and a lot of recent experience outside New England - he would be well poised to take over the offense and Mac's development and to allow Bill to focus more on areas where his input is more important: defense and ST.
I think Josh is better than BOB as OC, but since Josh is gone, I wouldn't at all mind BOB back in the role. And I wouldn't mind Flores as DC. I think this team needs an influx of experienced brain power around Belichick right now.
 

Eddie Jurak

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I think Josh is better than BOB as OC, but since Josh is gone, I wouldn't at all mind BOB back in the role. And I wouldn't mind Flores as DC. I think this team needs an influx of experienced brain power around Belichick right now.
I don't have an opinion on Josh vs O'Brien. I would consider it a huge win if we got both O'Brien and Flores back.
 

Super Nomario

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Yeah, who in the world has suggested Gase. I'd like to have a word with them.
That was me. He wouldn't be the first bad head coach / good OC. There was some rumored interest last year (and the Pats wound up hiring Bo Hardegree, Gase's right-hand man), BB and Gase have a good relationship, and Gase was originally a McDaniels hire in Denver so there's system familiarity.
 

sodenj5

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That was me. He wouldn't be the first bad head coach / good OC. There was some rumored interest last year (and the Pats wound up hiring Bo Hardegree, Gase's right-hand man), BB and Gase have a good relationship, and Gase was originally a McDaniels hire in Denver so there's system familiarity.
Not sure if Gase’s ego will allow him to fit in as an OC in New England, but maybe he sees it as his chance to succeed Bill when he hangs it up now that McDaniels is out.

I can see him falling in line for a few years before Bill eventually hangs it up. It’s possible he has learned from his mistakes as the HC in Miami and NY.

I just think that as an OC and a “QB whisperer” he’s been exposed as a bit of a fraud. I would probably take BO’B over Gase if I had the choice.
 

jsinger121

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BB won’t hire Gase as he rarely if ever goes outside the family for an important hire.
 

CoffeeNerdness

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That was me. He wouldn't be the first bad head coach / good OC. There was some rumored interest last year (and the Pats wound up hiring Bo Hardegree, Gase's right-hand man), BB and Gase have a good relationship, and Gase was originally a McDaniels hire in Denver so there's system familiarity.
Ok, that's some solid reasoning/connections, but it still seems like a huge long shot given his in-division high profile flameouts. Plus the keeping it in the family precedent as noted above.
 

Cellar-Door

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I assume O'Brien gets the OC call, if he says no then likely O'Shea.

What I would like to see is for Bill to backfill some of the other spots with young guys who have some experience in other organizations (or college).
 

Super Nomario

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I can see him falling in line for a few years before Bill eventually hangs it up. It’s possible he has learned from his mistakes as the HC in Miami and NY.
I think the nice thing about a Gase hire vs O'Brien or O'Shea or whoever is, as a two-time loser, Gase is nowhere close to getting another HC job. He wouldn't be as smooth an integration as those guys right off the bat, but he might be the best chance to Mac to have the same OC for five or six years.

I just think that as an OC and a “QB whisperer” he’s been exposed as a bit of a fraud. I would probably take BO’B over Gase if I had the choice.
I think O'Brien is my first choice too, but Gase isn't a bad alternative. I don't think I really believe in QB whisperers, but the idea that Gase was poison for young QBs took a hit this year. Darnold didn't look any better with Carolina, the Jets continued to suck, and even Ryan Tannehill turned back into a pumpkin.

BB won’t hire Gase as he rarely if ever goes outside the family for an important hire.
Gase hasn't worked for the Patriots before, but he's not really outside the family either. He got his start under Saban and he was McDaniels' WR coach in Denver. He's not immediate family, maybe more like a second cousin.
 

JokersWildJIMED

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Would love to see BoB but fear that it’s going to be in house or Judge. They have had an amazing institutional brain drain the past 3 years and they really should consider outside voices. I’d love to see Patricia go with Josh, and for Belichick to bring in a veteran on the defensive side as a true DC, say Mike Zimmer, although it’ll never happen and he’s probably going to go to Dallas.
 

JimD

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I'm more than a little concerned about the eventual succession plan when Bill finally does step down. Josh clearly had stayed the past few years when he would likely have had other HC opportunities, but taking the Raiders job appears to indicate that he wasn't willing to wait forever (not that the Patriots owed him anything as long as BB is still up for the job). Numerous scribes have already written that one of the pluses of bringing back O'Brien is that he also could serve as an in-house head coach in waiting. I know that whoever succeeds Belichick has massive shoes to fill and will likely comes across as a huge downgrade, but the idea of BOB being that guy makes me want to throw up in my mouth.
 

tims4wins

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I'm more than a little concerned about the eventual succession plan when Bill finally does step down. Josh clearly had stayed the past few years when he would likely have had other HC opportunities, but taking the Raiders job appears to indicate that he wasn't willing to wait forever (not that the Patriots owed him anything as long as BB is still up for the job). Numerous scribes have already written that one of the pluses of bringing back O'Brien is that he also could serve as an in-house head coach in waiting. I know that whoever succeeds Belichick has massive shoes to fill and will likely comes across as a huge downgrade, but the idea of BOB being that guy makes me want to throw up in my mouth.
Could still be Josh. Say BB goes another 4-5 years. Then even if Josh is successful, they could recruit him back (or trade for him)
 

dynomite

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Count me as one who would like to see O'Brien back as OC. As someone with HC experience - and a lot of recent experience outside New England - he would be well poised to take over the offense and Mac's development and to allow Bill to focus more on areas where his input is more important: defense and ST.
I agree with wanting BOB back. Obviously it's hard to tease apart responsibility when Brady is the QB and Belichick is the head coach, but for BOB to have been at the helm of the offense in 2010/2011 carries a lot of weight. Because they ultimately fell short in those years it can be tempting (at least for me) to forget how outstanding those teams were on offense.

- 2 of the 4 seasons in which the Patriots have scored 500+ points in franchise history
- 1 ('11) of the 3 seasons in which the Patriots were the #1 offense by points scored (others were '07 and '12)
- Oversaw development of Gronk and Hernandez into unprecedented 2 TE monster
- Helped turn unheralded BJGE and Woodhead into reliable RBs

While there is much to say about his tenure with the Texans and performance as GM, despite inheriting a 2-14 team with no QB, he did have winning seasons in 5 of his 6 years and oversaw the development of Deshaun Watson.

Especially given the exodus of veteran coaching talent from the Patriots in the last 3-4 seasons (Flores, O'Shea, McDaniels, Fears, etc.) I imagine it would be nice to restock with someone Belichick knows and trusts.
 

CoffeeNerdness

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I was wondering the other day about Stevie Mullet... has anyone ever heard or read any interviews with him? Does he come off as a good football mind in the mold of dear old dad? BB strikes me as the type of dude to loath nepotism, so despite its stink surrounding Steve's elevation to a prominent role, I feel like he must have earned it. If he actually is the DC (is he?) then he's worked himself into a position in the NFL where he's one step away from his own head coaching position (although realistically he seems like he'd probably be 2-3 more good years away from having his name bandied about.) Might young Steve be a successor candidate when life on VII Rings calls his dad away from the football field or is he more on the Roman Roy close but just not the guy treadmill?
 

Mystic Merlin

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I was wondering the other day about Stevie Mullet... has anyone ever heard or read any interviews with him? Does he come off as a good football mind in the mold of dear old dad? BB strikes me as the type of dude to loath nepotism, so despite its stink surrounding Steve's elevation to a prominent role, I feel like he must have earned it. If he actually is the DC (is he?) then he's worked himself into a position in the NFL where he's one step away from his own head coaching position (although realistically he seems like he'd probably be 2-3 more good years away from having his name bandied about.) Might young Steve be a successor candidate when life on VII Rings calls his dad away from the football field or is he more on the Roman Roy close but just not the guy treadmill?
I’ve heard him speak a few times, same cadence/low energy delivery as Bill.

Hard to glean much about football acumen from what he or any other Pats coach says to the press. It’s safe to say he knows a lot about football, but as far as how he compared to peers? Shrug.
 

lexrageorge

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I was wondering the other day about Stevie Mullet... has anyone ever heard or read any interviews with him? Does he come off as a good football mind in the mold of dear old dad? BB strikes me as the type of dude to loath nepotism, so despite its stink surrounding Steve's elevation to a prominent role, I feel like he must have earned it. If he actually is the DC (is he?) then he's worked himself into a position in the NFL where he's one step away from his own head coaching position (although realistically he seems like he'd probably be 2-3 more good years away from having his name bandied about.) Might young Steve be a successor candidate when life on VII Rings calls his dad away from the football field or is he more on the Roman Roy close but just not the guy treadmill?
I honestly think Steve Belichick would be best served at some point by being a defensive coordinator with another team under a different head coach. Otherwise, there would be too many complaints by the media and fans about "nepotism", and understandably so. Doesn't have to be in 2022, but would be good for all concerned to do it at some point if he desires to eventually rise to a head coaching job, IMHO.

One consideration about his future is that there's a decent chance that it will be Jonathan Kraft pulling the organizational strings in a couple of years.
 

E5 Yaz

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I honestly think Steve Belichick would be best served at some point by being a defensive coordinator with another team under a different head coach. Otherwise, there would be too many complaints by the media and fans about "nepotism", and understandably so. Doesn't have to be in 2022, but would be good for all concerned to do it at some point if he desires to eventually rise to a head coaching job, IMHO.

One consideration about his future is that there's a decent chance that it will be Jonathan Kraft pulling the organizational strings in a couple of years.
Speaking of nepotism
 

joe dokes

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I'm mostly agnostic on BO'B's overall skills (in BB I trust with the hire), but I think that his time at Alabama (though not with Jones) gives him a good eye towards "what they were doing" in college and might give him some additional useful insight or ability to make inroads with Jones.
 

Cellar-Door

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I was wondering the other day about Stevie Mullet... has anyone ever heard or read any interviews with him? Does he come off as a good football mind in the mold of dear old dad? BB strikes me as the type of dude to loath nepotism, so despite its stink surrounding Steve's elevation to a prominent role, I feel like he must have earned it. If he actually is the DC (is he?) then he's worked himself into a position in the NFL where he's one step away from his own head coaching position (although realistically he seems like he'd probably be 2-3 more good years away from having his name bandied about.) Might young Steve be a successor candidate when life on VII Rings calls his dad away from the football field or is he more on the Roman Roy close but just not the guy treadmill?
Yeah, he might be Kyle Shanahan, where people thought he was just a nepotism hire of his father's (I mean technically he was), but then he went elsewhere and people realized... oh yeah, but also being an NFL coach's son gets you a ridiculous level of insight and he's a really good offensive mind with creative run game designs.
 

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I'm mostly agnostic on BO'B's overall skills (in BB I trust with the hire), but I think that his time at Alabama (though not with Jones) gives him a good eye towards "what they were doing" in college and might give him some additional useful insight or ability to make inroads with Jones.
I also think he would likely have some excellent insight into which Tide kids might be good fits for the Pats to target in the draft.
 

SamCassellsStones

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Predicted Pats 2022 coaching staff:
HC: Bill Belichick
OC: Brian Belichick
DC: Steve Belichick
ST coach: Linda Holliday
 

leftfieldlegacy

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I'm mostly agnostic on BO'B's overall skills (in BB I trust with the hire), but I think that his time at Alabama (though not with Jones) gives him a good eye towards "what they were doing" in college and might give him some additional useful insight or ability to make inroads with Jones.
One downside would be if he leaves after one year for a HC position and Mac ends up with his third OC in 3 years.
 

leftfieldlegacy

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This is one of the things I like about Adam Gase as an option - no one's hiring him as a HC anytime soon.
I live in NJ and saw too much of Gase with the Jets to have anything positive to think about him, but I'm confident that your assesment of him is far more objective and in depth than mine. For me, hiring Gase as OC would fall under the "in Bill we trust" category.
 

Cellar-Door

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I really don't get the idea that you should hire someone who hasn't shown any indication of being good at something for a good 7 years because his repeated failures mean he can be not good at it for you for several years, vs. getting someone who is good at the job but might be so good that someone wants to give him a promotion.
 

Super Nomario

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I really don't get the idea that you should hire someone who hasn't shown any indication of being good at something for a good 7 years because his repeated failures mean he can be not good at it for you for several years, vs. getting someone who is good at the job but might be so good that someone wants to give him a promotion.
Gase is not a good head coach. His track record as OC is pretty good. He wouldn't be the first quality coordinator to get Peter Principled.
 

Cellar-Door

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Gase is not a good head coach. His track record as OC is pretty good. He wouldn't be the first quality coordinator to get Peter Principled.
Is it really that good though? His offenses when he was a HC (and at times the playcaller) were not very good, the Bears weren't good his year there (basically in line with before he was added), his entire rep is built on 2 years with pre-washed Peyton Manning.
 

Super Nomario

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Is it really that good though? His offenses when he was a HC (and at times the playcaller) were not very good, the Bears weren't good his year there (basically in line with before he was added), his entire rep is built on 2 years with pre-washed Peyton Manning.
Those were two great years with Manning though. Jay Cutler put up the best ANY/A of his career with Gase. Ryan Tannehill put up what at the time was the best ANY/A of his career in his first season with Gase, though he then got hurt and subsequently put up much better seasons in Tennessee. Darnold had his best year in his first year with Gase, though all his seasons have been terrible and his second season with Gase was probably his worst.
 

dynomite

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Those were two great years with Manning though. Jay Cutler put up the best ANY/A of his career with Gase. Ryan Tannehill put up what at the time was the best ANY/A of his career in his first season with Gase, though he then got hurt and subsequently put up much better seasons in Tennessee. Darnold had his best year in his first year with Gase, though all his seasons have been terrible and his second season with Gase was probably his worst.
This is why it's so hard to judge offensive coaches despite the context of their QB.

Bill O'Brien was Pats Offensive Coordinator in 2010 & 2011 for two of the top scoring offenses in NFL history (16th and 17th I believe). Adam Gase was Broncos Offensive Coordinator in 2013 for the top scoring offense in NFL history. Their QBs, of course, were Tom Brady and Peyton Manning.

On the other hand, as you point out, Gase's record with the three horses of the mediocpocalypse in Cutler/Tannehill/Darnold was decidedly mixed, with some improvement in QB play as you point out with Cutler and Tannehill, although since leaving Denver Gase has never had an offense finish above 21st in yards gained or 17th in points scored.

Still, I defer to the high regard in which Belichick and Saban reportedly hold both of them. Heard on the radio the other day that most football folks expect Gase and BOB to be the OCs at Alabama and New England, and the question is just which will be where. Who knows whether that's true, just passing along.
 

sodenj5

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Those were two great years with Manning though. Jay Cutler put up the best ANY/A of his career with Gase. Ryan Tannehill put up what at the time was the best ANY/A of his career in his first season with Gase, though he then got hurt and subsequently put up much better seasons in Tennessee. Darnold had his best year in his first year with Gase, though all his seasons have been terrible and his second season with Gase was probably his worst.
I made this point back when Gase was in Miami: If you need a Hall of Fame QB with a borderline legendary understanding of the game and an enormous forehead to run your offense well, then you aren’t a very good coach or teacher of the game of football. He’s never come close to recapturing that Broncos magic, which should probably suggest that Peyton Manning was really good and Adam Gase was there.

Gase was famous for bringing in “his guys” because they “got it.” They understood the offense and understood Gase and understood why running with Frank Gore for 2.5 yards on first and second down was a net positive. He was also famous for running guy that weren’t “his guys” out of town.
 

Shelterdog

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Those were two great years with Manning though. Jay Cutler put up the best ANY/A of his career with Gase. Ryan Tannehill put up what at the time was the best ANY/A of his career in his first season with Gase, though he then got hurt and subsequently put up much better seasons in Tennessee. Darnold had his best year in his first year with Gase, though all his seasons have been terrible and his second season with Gase was probably his worst.
Also hard for at least this fan to disaggregate his play calling game plans and scheme from his crappy talent.
I made this point back when Gase was in Miami: If you need a Hall of Fame QB with a borderline legendary understanding of the game and an enormous forehead to run your offense well, then you aren’t a very good coach or teacher of the game of football. He’s never come close to recapturing that Broncos magic, which should probably suggest that Peyton Manning was really good and Adam Gase was there.

Gase was famous for bringing in “his guys” because they “got it.” They understood the offense and understood Gase and understood why running with Frank Gore for 2.5 yards on first and second down was a net positive. He was also famous for running guy that weren’t “his guys” out of town.
honestly sounds like the complaint a lot of fans have had about the patriots (our schemes are too complicated just play young fast guys!).

If GMs kept giving him dumb players and his scheme needed smarter but not necessarily physically talented guys it’s not hard to see him (and his teams) struggling.