The Michael McCorkle "Mac" Jones Thread

E5 Yaz

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It seems obvious that there is a lot of room for improvement that is not related to arm strength. Whether and how much he improves remains to be seen. But the takes that focus solely on his arm are ignorning that.
Experience will hopefully clean up some of those recognition and awareness issues. What is clear is that he had the best rookie season of the vaunted quarterback class. What's yet to be seen is whether he'll plateau while the others move past him.
 

MuppetAsteriskTalk

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I'm more convinced than ever that Mac is the guy. Put some better players around him, give him a little more experience, and this offense is going to cook.
 

Mystic Merlin

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I don’t see the top 5 ceiling. Who are the top 5 now? Candidates: Rodgers, Brady, Mahomes, Dak, Allen, Herbert, Burrow.

Mac’s arm is not close to most of these guys and it is wishcasting to think it become so. He sure as hell is not going to run a lot so you have a pocket passer with a weak (relatively) arm, great accuracy, who can see the field. That can be a plus QB but what’s the story you have to tell that makes this a top 5 guy?

He is good at reading the D, he does some things that remind me of my guy, Penny. That guy can win a lot of games.
Burrow is an interesting guy to cite because his arm is not elite and he’s not a great athlete, either. I think he grades out better than Mac in both areas right now, but of the active QB he is the model you’d look at for Mac’s progression.
 

Cotillion

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Can't wait to see what full offseason NFL does for Mac. Work on some mechanics. Work on speeding up the reads so the game slows down for him. Happy they don't have to already be looking for QB again in the draft.

Was a more than adequate first year for a true Rookie QB. It was definitely in the good-great range to my untrained eye.
 

Mooch

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The interception:
View: https://twitter.com/SethWalder/status/1482527041971003402?s=20

Seth Walter: Micah Hyde INT dots!! (NFL Next Gen Stats)

Crazy to see where everyone was when Mac released the ball. Also, everyone is covered when Mac lets the ball go. Mac was looking right at first, but there were only covered receivers there, so maybe an easy decision for the safety to help deep?
A half second more patience and it looks like he has Myers on the crosser with no one between him and the end zone.
 

McBride11

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A half second more patience and it looks like he has Myers on the crosser with no one between him and the end zone.
Was just gonna say that. Of course Hyde breaks towards Meyers not Algholor then. Probably a completion but maybe not a TD.

Overall, I am satisfied with Mac's rookie year. He was not perfect and has some weaknesses. But a full offseason of training and video review will likely do him wonders, especially if his work ethic is to be believed.
 

Jimbodandy

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I don’t see the top 5 ceiling. Who are the top 5 now? Candidates: Rodgers, Brady, Mahomes, Dak, Allen, Herbert, Burrow.

Mac’s arm is not close to most of these guys and it is wishcasting to think it become so. He sure as hell is not going to run a lot so you have a pocket passer with a weak (relatively) arm, great accuracy, who can see the field. That can be a plus QB but what’s the story you have to tell that makes this a top 5 guy?

He is good at reading the D, he does some things that remind me of my guy, Penny. That guy can win a lot of games.
Is Brady the goat because of his arm strength? Velocity is overrated.

Mac’s accuracy and decision-making is already above average, and he's a rookie starter. It will improve. His arm is below average, and it will also improve.

Plus plus accuracy, recognition, and decision-making and average to slightly above average arm is at least a top 10 QB and maybe more.

Aaron Rodgers regularly chokes in the playoffs and has the best arm that we've ever seen and is mobile. Mac doesn't need a cannon. He needs to improve.
 

Devizier

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Pretty happy with the guy, but next season will tell us if he’s the long term solution or not. I’m guessing that he won’t get a ton of additional help on offense this off-season, though.
 

BaseballJones

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Pretty happy with the guy, but next season will tell us if he’s the long term solution or not. I’m guessing that he won’t get a ton of additional help on offense this off-season, though.
One lineman
One quality WR
Return of White

Offense will be really good.
 

Jungleland

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This is probably better for a deep dive in another thread, but I think this is the biggest thing AND within reach. Assuming Meyers comes back, I really don't think they're two receivers short. Bourne/Meyers/Agholor is a more than adequate 2-4 on the depth chart, especially when they have Henry at tight end. The problem this year was that Agholor is a miserable #1 X receiver and Harry is an inadequate 4th option, not that the entire group is subpar.
 

BaseballJones

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This is probably better for a deep dive in another thread, but I think this is the biggest thing AND within reach. Assuming Meyers comes back, I really don't think they're two receivers short. Bourne/Meyers/Agholor is a more than adequate 2-4 on the depth chart, especially when they have Henry at tight end. The problem this year was that Agholor is a miserable #1 X receiver and Harry is an inadequate 4th option, not that the entire group is subpar.
I agree. I honestly don’t think that the offense will be the issue next year. Mac will be improved - maybe much improved. The RBs are really good. Solid OL. I’m worried about the defense especially if Jackson doesn’t return.
 

Super Nomario

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This is probably better for a deep dive in another thread, but I think this is the biggest thing AND within reach. Assuming Meyers comes back, I really don't think they're two receivers short. Bourne/Meyers/Agholor is a more than adequate 2-4 on the depth chart, especially when they have Henry at tight end. The problem this year was that Agholor is a miserable #1 X receiver and Harry is an inadequate 4th option, not that the entire group is subpar.
The problem is how to acquire a WR1 in an offseason where they have very little cap space and also have major needs at OT, LB, S, and CB.
 

RG33

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I agree. I honestly don’t think that the offense will be the issue next year. Mac will be improved - maybe much improved. The RBs are really good. Solid OL. I’m worried about the defense especially if Jackson doesn’t return.
I almost feel that Jackson is a must signing. We saw what happened from a depth standpoint after trading Gilmore and having Jonathan Jones go down, and having the likes of JoeJuean, Miles Bryant, and Jalen Mills as folks you needed to rely on in the secondary. If you use what is truly a #1 CB, the domino effect will be really hard to overcome without signing another #1 caliber guy. In this NFL, it just feels like it is the 2nd most important position on the field after QB. JC is legit and I hope he is their #1 priority this offseason.
 

McBride11

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If the rumors are true Oak may want a reset on Carr. Big IF I know esp since they made the playoff

trade a second for Renfrow? Bb isnt exactly known for his drafting of WR prowess

but IF oak is gonna move on, 26 yo Renfrow is a rfa after 2022, so unlikely to be in their rebuild window.

Likely beyond wishful thinking but im bored by this halftime
 

BaseballJones

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The problem is how to acquire a WR1 in an offseason where they have very little cap space and also have major needs at OT, LB, S, and CB.
The draft. Philly got one. Cincy got one. Minnesota got one last year. This is a BB weakness of course, so it's not likely, but that's probably the best way. Maybe the Alabama WR who tore his ACL (Williams?), who was one of the top rated picks in the draft, will fall due to injury. Maybe the Pats can snag him later on (i.e., trade down to get him) and he turns out to be phenomenal anyway. Actually Metchie also tore his ACL so you've got two possibilities. Those two are potentially awesome and might not require the Pats' current #1 pick.
 

jsinger121

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The draft. Philly got one. Cincy got one. Minnesota got one last year. This is a BB weakness of course, so it's not likely, but that's probably the best way. Maybe the Alabama WR who tore his ACL (Williams?), who was one of the top rated picks in the draft, will fall due to injury. Maybe the Pats can snag him later on (i.e., trade down to get him) and he turns out to be phenomenal anyway. Actually Metchie also tore his ACL so you've got two possibilities. Those two are potentially awesome and might not require the Pats' current #1 pick.
And if anything both of those receivers already have a prior relationship having played with Mac. The transition should be a lot easier for those two guys.
 

Dr. Gonzo

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Allen Robinson will be 29 in August and just had a down year. Any chance his value is down and he’s not looking at big offers come free agency?

Gallup would be my preferred FA target but I don’t see the money working.
 

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This is probably better for a deep dive in another thread, but I think this is the biggest thing AND within reach. Assuming Meyers comes back, I really don't think they're two receivers short. Bourne/Meyers/Agholor is a more than adequate 2-4 on the depth chart, especially when they have Henry at tight end. The problem this year was that Agholor is a miserable #1 X receiver and Harry is an inadequate 4th option, not that the entire group is subpar.
I feel like Agholor is best suited to be Donte Stallworth, but they had him needing to be Randy Moss.
Get a 1, slide NA to 2, Bourne and Meyers as the new version of Edelman/Amendola.
 

Super Nomario

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The draft. Philly got one. Cincy got one. Minnesota got one last year. This is a BB weakness of course, so it's not likely, but that's probably the best way. Maybe the Alabama WR who tore his ACL (Williams?), who was one of the top rated picks in the draft, will fall due to injury. Maybe the Pats can snag him later on (i.e., trade down to get him) and he turns out to be phenomenal anyway. Actually Metchie also tore his ACL so you've got two possibilities. Those two are potentially awesome and might not require the Pats' current #1 pick.
We could, but the first- rounder is maybe our most premium asset in a year where we don't have much cap space and major holes to fill at 5 or 6 other positions. So there's an opportunity cost.
 

SMU_Sox

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Yeah, I still think that's the throw you make versus single coverage, not with a safety lurking there. Ball was a little late, a little short and a little inside. Not terrible, but I've seen a lot of people say it was a great pass and it just wasn't in my opinion. Ball hung in the air for a while. Still, not the kind of mistake you kill a QB over by any stretch.
It should have been thrown, Agholor had the corner cooked. Just lay it further and to his outside shoulder and it's a TD. I don't fault the decision.
I think it was too close to the numbers. He puts that just a yard outside or like you said his outside shoulder and it is a TD. Sucks that their safety has that kind of range but he's had that range all year. At Bama Mac would miss in similar fashion on deeper balls but got away with it because of the competition and the skill of his receivers. It's not an extremely bad throw but it wasn't a good one. I just hope he takes similar leaps that Burrow did with his deep balls in year 2. Burrow got the ball out quickly and improved his limited arm strength (although most of it was throwing earlier and good accuracy).
 

j44thor

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I think it was too close to the numbers. He puts that just a yard outside or like you said his outside shoulder and it is a TD. Sucks that their safety has that kind of range but he's had that range all year. At Bama Mac would miss in similar fashion on deeper balls but got away with it because of the competition and the skill of his receivers. It's not an extremely bad throw but it wasn't a good one. I just hope he takes similar leaps that Burrow did with his deep balls in year 2. Burrow got the ball out quickly and improved his limited arm strength (although most of it was throwing earlier and good accuracy).
Isn't a lot of Burrow's improvement having a physical freak like Chase and another very good #2 WR in Tee Higgins, when you include Boyd I think all 3 would be better than anything NE trots out there, you could argue Bourne is better than Boyd at this point but you can't even squint and come up with a comparable for Higgins let alone Chase. Having WRs that can reliably make contested catches, out muscle and run by corners will make up for a lot of QB mistakes. Pats WRs get open with scheme and that is about it.
 

SMU_Sox

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Isn't a lot of Burrow's improvement having a physical freak like Chase and another very good #2 WR in Tee Higgins, when you include Boyd I think all 3 would be better than anything NE trots out there, you could argue Bourne is better than Boyd at this point but you can't even squint and come up with a comparable for Higgins let alone Chase. Having WRs that can reliably make contested catches, out muscle and run by corners will make up for a lot of QB mistakes. Pats WRs get open with scheme and that is about it.
You are absolutely right but he has also made noticeable improvements. Having studs like that to throw to certainly helps... a lot. I agree with you that they often struggle against man. There isn't anything wrong with guys getting open to scheme and spacing although when teams can go toe to toe with you there yeah it really helps to have guys who can win on their own. Agholor had a mixed year but there were multiple times when he had a step or was open but Mac either didn't throw or didn't make a good enough throw. If he throws that ball better yesterday or hit him instead of Meyers or White on that flea-flicker ages ago that's another 70-80+ yards and 2 TDs. I hope next year that changes.
 

rodderick

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You are absolutely right but he has also made noticeable improvements. Having studs like that to throw to certainly helps... a lot. I agree with you that they often struggle against man. There isn't anything wrong with guys getting open to scheme and spacing although when teams can go toe to toe with you there yeah it really helps to have guys who can win on their own. Agholor had a mixed year but there were multiple times when he had a step or was open but Mac either didn't throw or didn't make a good enough throw. If he throws that ball better yesterday or hit him instead of Meyers or White on that flea-flicker ages ago that's another 70-80+ yards and 2 TDs. I hope next year that changes.
I thought I read some articles this offseason about how Burrow worked on his mechanics to improve arm strength. I actually thought it was noticeable compared to how he looked last year. Maybe Mac can progress similarly.
 

Super Nomario

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I would say the Patriots have less flexibility than most teams to create more cap space. Most of their big / long-term contracts, which are the easiest to create cap space with by simply converting salary to bonus and spreading over the length of the deal, were a) signed just last year and b) already pretty backloaded to begin with. Like they can save $7 MMish by reducing Judon's 2022 salary to the minimum and spreading the remainder over the length of the deal as bonus, but his cap hit is already $16.5 MM in 2023 and 2024 as it is. And most of the players they can get significant savings by cutting played major roles for them in 2021. The players who can save them $5MM+ are Mason, Jonathan Jones, Agholor, Van Noy, and Godchaux, all of whom except Jones played major snaps this year. It's not going to be easy to cut a guy like KVN or Godchaux and replace him for less money.
 

rodderick

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I also don't think it's right to think of owners as ATM machines solely limited by the cap in what they are willing to spend. Kraft shelled out over 200 million last offseason. Even if they have the cap space, is he down to throw big money around once again?
 

Traut

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I think this point was raised during the game and it’s worth repeating: it’s been a long 18 months for Mac.

- He leads Bama to a National Championship which results in him playing the SEC championship plus 2 playoff games;

-Then he’s off to the combine;

-Drafted and then spring workouts;

-Training camp;

-Beats out Newtown in the preseason;

-Starts and plays the first 17 game NFL regular season; and

-Ends with a playoff game in Buffalo.

That’s a lot for anyone. This kind of thing is a gauntlet and speaks well for his future. He’s a worker.

What it doesn’t do is allow him to focus or really make meaningful changes to his game.

I’m optimistic that he puts in focused work this offseason, builds on the last 18 months, and the Patriots future is bright.
 

Eddie Jurak

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I’m optimistic that he puts in focused work this offseason, builds on the last 18 months, and the Patriots future is bright.
This overall point is very well taken, and, given what we know of Mac, it seems a certainty that he will be putting in that work. Year 1 to year 2 will be a big and important step for him.
 

speedracer

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I thought I read some articles this offseason about how Burrow worked on his mechanics to improve arm strength. I actually thought it was noticeable compared to how he looked last year. Maybe Mac can progress similarly.
Any expert opinions on Mac's ability to progress in this area? My non-expert take is that anybody who ends up on an NFL roster should be able to master mechanics, footwork, etc. and has more than enough raw body strength, but it Mac has unusually small hands or tendon/ligament/flexibility issues that limit his ability to make his arm whip that might put a ceiling on his ability.
 

tims4wins

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I think this point was raised during the game and it’s worth repeating: it’s been a long 18 months for Mac.

- He leads Bama to a National Championship which results in him playing the SEC championship plus 2 playoff games;

-Then he’s off to the combine;

-Drafted and then spring workouts;

-Training camp;

-Beats out Newtown in the preseason;

-Starts and plays the first 17 game NFL regular season; and

-Ends with a playoff game in Buffalo.

That’s a lot for anyone. This kind of thing is a gauntlet and speaks well for his future. He’s a worker.

What it doesn’t do is allow him to focus or really make meaningful changes to his game.

I’m optimistic that he puts in focused work this offseason, builds on the last 18 months, and the Patriots future is bright.
This is all good context. We know that training for the combine is not the same as training to actually play in the NFL. When he arrived in Foxboro in the spring, at that point it was all about starting to work on the playbook, learn the team, learn the scheme, learn the facility, learn his teammates, etc. I'm sure there was some work on fundamentals but that had to take a back seat to everything else. And then training camp is a continuation of the playbook, etc., and then you're into the season with gameplanning and the week to week grind.

So it feels like, generally speaking, after you take a break to re-set after your season ends (whenever that may be - early January or early-mid February), the real window for focusing on "yourself" is from that point up until mid-May or whenever the mini camps begin. In the Man in the Arena and Tom vs. Time series we saw lots of footage of Tom working out at his house, at the beach, at parks, etc... that was all during the offseason on his own time.

Mac definitely both deserves and needs to take a break given his 18 month whirlwind, but when he is ready it's pedal to the metal time.
 

sodenj5

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Any expert opinions on Mac's ability to progress in this area? My non-expert take is that anybody who ends up on an NFL roster should be able to master mechanics, footwork, etc. and has more than enough raw body strength, but it Mac has unusually small hands or tendon/ligament/flexibility issues that limit his ability to make his arm whip that might put a ceiling on his ability.
I may be mistaken, but I believe that Joe Burrow re-tooled his mechanics in college and it’s been credited as a large reason that he went from relative unknown transfer from Ohio State to Heisman Trophy winner in dramatic fashion.

I feel like mechanics generally will lead to more consistency and maybe help you squeeze the last 3-5% of untapped of arm talent, but Mac or Tua or anyone else that is “limited” isn’t going to suddenly look like Justin Herbert. Even Burrow still doesn’t have high end arm strength, but he has great mechanics and great consistency.
 

BigJimEd

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I thought I read some articles this offseason about how Burrow worked on his mechanics to improve arm strength. I actually thought it was noticeable compared to how he looked last year. Maybe Mac can progress similarly.
Yes, that was a talking point at the beginning of camp.

https://www.espn.com/blog/cincinnati-bengals/post/_/id/33304/how-joe-burrows-improved-velocity-could-have-bengals-thinking-playoffs

Palmer said Burrow didn’t set out to increase his velocity. Instead, Palmer asked Burrow to pull up some clips where things didn’t feel right. They quickly found out why.

Burrow had a tendency of throwing from his toes, and slightly lifting his feet off the ground. So, he worked with Palmer to keep his cleats planted, which, Burrow said, allows him to generate more torque and power through his core, which eventually travels upward to the arm on throws.

Palmer used his array of biometric testing equipment to quantify the impact. He said Burrow’s throwing velocity, just days after being cleared to throw, went from 48.5 miles per hour to 54 -- a number he believes has increased as Burrow continued his rehab in Cincinnati.
 

BroodsSexton

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I also don't think it's right to think of owners as ATM machines solely limited by the cap in what they are willing to spend. Kraft shelled out over 200 million last offseason. Even if they have the cap space, is he down to throw big money around once again?
Wait, are you challenging the economics of fielding a team for Robert Kraft? Like, you don’t think this is a profitable endeavor for him?
 

MillarTime

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Can't wait to see what full offseason NFL does for Mac. Work on some mechanics. Work on speeding up the reads so the game slows down for him. Happy they don't have to already be looking for QB again in the draft.

Was a more than adequate first year for a true Rookie QB. It was definitely in the good-great range to my untrained eye.
This is a 100% where I am. Excited to see how Mac progresses, would love to see them find a way to get a true #1 WR to help him out (I too think Jameson Williams might be a good option if we slides due to his ACL).
 

rodderick

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Wait, are you challenging the economics of fielding a team for Robert Kraft? Like, you don’t think this is a profitable endeavor for him?
No? How did you get that from my post? I just don't think cap space is the only thing on owner's minds when deciding how much money to spend, especially when you're handing out longer term deals that could mean big money that takes a while to really hit your cap.
 

BaseballJones

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The Pats' pass-catching weapons are, by general acclaim, no better than league average. Henry is a solid TE, Smith was a disappointment. They lost one of the best pass-catching RBs in the world in James White. The WRs don't scare anyone, but Meyers and Bourne especially are solid, but it drops off considerably from there. In an ideal world, Bourne is a #2 and Meyers a possession #3, but they have to play more prominent roles given the rest of the talent.

Now all that being said, consider that they have a rookie QB. Not working with all-world receiving talent. Just average receiving talent at best. Not terrible. I don't believe for a second that the Pats have BAD talent at the skill positions. But it's no better than average.

And with that, with a rookie QB, the Pats finished with these rankings in terms of pass offense:

#14 in pass yds per game (226.9) - top 56% of NFL
#7 in pass yds per attempt (7.7) - top 78% of NFL
#5 in pass completion percentage (68.0%) - top 84% of NFL
#16 in pass TD (24) - top 50% of NFL
#15 in pass TD percentage (4.5) - top 53% of NFL
#12 in pass INT (12) - top 63% of NFL
#16 in pass INT percentage (2.4) - top 50% of NFL
#3 in sacks allowed (28) - pretty amazing for a rookie - top 91% of NFL
#9 in sack percentage (5.0%) - top 72% of NFL
#12 in passer rating (95.5) - top 63% of NFL
#9 in passer DVOA - top 72% of NFL
#12 in ANY/A (6.7) - top 63% of NFL
#13 in expected points contributed by the passing game (115.80) - top 59% of NFL
AVG rank: #11 - top 66% of NFL


So you look at all that, and there's no way that Mac Jones' 2021 season was anything worse than a top third QB in the league. Add in that he had average receiving talent around him (again, not BAD, but no better than average), and that's a pretty remarkable season for a true rookie.
 

Cellar-Door

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The Pats' pass-catching weapons are, by general acclaim, no better than league average. Henry is a solid TE, Smith was a disappointment. They lost one of the best pass-catching RBs in the world in James White. The WRs don't scare anyone, but Meyers and Bourne especially are solid, but it drops off considerably from there. In an ideal world, Bourne is a #2 and Meyers a possession #3, but they have to play more prominent roles given the rest of the talent.

Now all that being said, consider that they have a rookie QB. Not working with all-world receiving talent. Just average receiving talent at best. Not terrible. I don't believe for a second that the Pats have BAD talent at the skill positions. But it's no better than average.

And with that, with a rookie QB, the Pats finished with these rankings in terms of pass offense:

#14 in pass yds per game (226.9) - top 56% of NFL
#7 in pass yds per attempt (7.7) - top 78% of NFL
#5 in pass completion percentage (68.0%) - top 84% of NFL
#16 in pass TD (24) - top 50% of NFL
#15 in pass TD percentage (4.5) - top 53% of NFL
#12 in pass INT (12) - top 63% of NFL
#16 in pass INT percentage (2.4) - top 50% of NFL
#3 in sacks allowed (28) - pretty amazing for a rookie - top 91% of NFL
#9 in sack percentage (5.0%) - top 72% of NFL
#12 in passer rating (95.5) - top 63% of NFL
#9 in passer DVOA - top 72% of NFL
#12 in ANY/A (6.7) - top 63% of NFL
#13 in expected points contributed by the passing game (115.80) - top 59% of NFL
AVG rank: #11 - top 66% of NFL


So you look at all that, and there's no way that Mac Jones' 2021 season was anything worse than a top third QB in the league. Add in that he had average receiving talent around him (again, not BAD, but no better than average), and that's a pretty remarkable season for a true rookie.
Not sure why you are using team ranks to grade an individual's place considering it would roll in backups.

I don't think Mac was a top third QB this year (that's top 10 or so), I think he was solidly in the next tier.

PFF (for all it's flaws we'll include it here) had him 11th
QBR had him 16th
Simple Rating had him 15th
DVOA had him 13th
 

BaseballJones

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Not sure why you are using team ranks to grade an individual's place considering it would roll in backups.

I don't think Mac was a top third QB this year (that's top 10 or so), I think he was solidly in the next tier.

PFF (for all it's flaws we'll include it here) had him 11th
QBR had him 16th
Simple Rating had him 15th
DVOA had him 13th
Because it was easier than parsing out each team's relative backup contributions. If you want to do that work, be my guest.

EDIT: To your point, we can say that the Patriots had about the 11th best passing offense in the NFL this year. Which is pretty remarkable given that they started a rookie all 17 games. (there...that makes it more of a team thing)

I see Mac as at the bottom of the top third. I have him basically as the 11th best QB. I don't have any idea how PFF does it, but my final result is basically where they're at. If you average out the four ratings that you offer, it averages out to 13.75, which is pretty close to where I have him.