A lot of variables might have salvaged a victory (as I acknowledged with the rebounds), but fielding a unit of the #8-12 guys on this roster when it’s not garbage time is piss-poor coaching.
Analysis of Celtics Games, '21-'22 Season
- Thread starter Imbricus
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Counterpoint:
You want TL in when Allen and Mobley are in. Game Thread said that TL was gassed in the 4Q; you have to steal some rest when CLE's 2nd unit is out there.
Smart is not really a NBA-level creator. I don't think having Smart anchor the second unit is going to be great. Also, he played 34 minutes after playing 42 last night.
DS we saw is much better when there's another scorer (JT) on the court and lanes are open.
Finally, Parker is like the Cs best non-starter offensive creator of the remaining available players.
It's funny that halfway through the 1Q, a lot of people in the game thread thought the Cs were going to lose by 20. So the Cs played super hard, got off to a lead, found out that they couldn't score against one of the better defenses in the league, and had a chance to win/tie the game on the last possession and pitchforks are out for Ime.
@wade boggs chicken dinner this is why I think Kanter should have gotten a look. Maybe dominate the glass while otherwise sucking would have worked.
Don't you think Parker is a better offensive player than Kanter? Or, more specifically, I'm not sure I want to see Kanter on either end against Mobley.
That unit played pretty well in the first half. Ime gets roasted here for playing starters too many minutes, and then gets roasted for playing the bench. Cant win.
This is true - I think they came in and excended the lead while playing good defense.
I do think Parker is a better offensive player than Kanter, but he was awful in the 3rd/4th, and Kanter, for all his limitations, has one elite skill that might have helped against the Cavs bench players.
I’m not arguing for any one of them. I’m just saying that two of the four of them should have been on the floor together at all times until the game was put away, and the rotations should have been adjusted accordingly. Instead, Udoka went five minutes with no shot creation, no defense, and no size for rebounding, leading to a swing in momentum from which the team was unable to recover.
Enes Kanter is a more efficient offensive player than Jabari Parker. We don't need JP's chucking on offense, they had PP, Grant, Nesmith, Romeo on that asinine unit. All 4 of those players are Jabari's equal or better from 3. EK would have balanced that lineup better
EK and JP defensive difference is negligible. Parker is a slightly better perimeter defender (which is a testament to how bad JP defense is) and Kanter is a better rebounder/low post defender. Again that unit needed rebounding. A Grant/Jabari rebounding unit is asking for trouble. And they got it when the CAVs turned up the effort
Enes played in 72 games/started 35, 24.4 mpg and avg 11/11 for a playoff team last year. He has 11 DNP-CD this season. Two games of garbage time, 10 minutes in total after 1758 minutes last season. So IME is basically saying Terry Stotts/Neil Oshay are complete morons to play Enes all last season as their starting & backup Center. Right now IME has Kanter as his 6th string Center
Jabari missed a huge rebound after a FT miss that was immediately kicked out by Windler turned into a 3 during the Q3 CAVs run. He missed several other rebounds and gave up position down low for easy baskets. That's crap Kanter can do.
Worst yet, Jabari sulked and walked up the court after a turnover in the 1st half. Several of us noted that on the game thread and said he should immediately get pulled/sat for several games. He shouldn't have seen the court again after that if IME is all about defense/effort. So this isn't some Monday Morning QB job on Jabari
IME is a rookie HC who is coaching that way. He and his Asst Coaches needed to stagger the starter rotations. They have had trouble figuring out rotations/minutes, hence the many THIBs comments.
Some feel the Celtics have recently played better, but I think the BUCKs and CAVs games are two absolutely terrible performances. Usually, I lean on the bullish side of the Celtics and hope I'm wrong (very good chance of that), but I see a .500 team battling for an 8th seed all season.
that's 100% false
its real simple, you need to play a consistent rotation but they need to be STAGGERED with the starters. Literally everyone has said that around here
You don't play all 2nd unit players at once, I thought we covered this after the Toronto massacre.
Who was the coach who went with 2 different units? I want to say Pitino.
He'd take all 5 starters out at the same time and go with the 2nd unit, every game. It was awful.
He'd take all 5 starters out at the same time and go with the 2nd unit, every game. It was awful.
That sounds very slick Rick-ish. Probably did that at Kentucky with ten 5-star recruits needing minutes.
Doing that in the NBA (and running full-court press for 48mpg) would be coaching malpractice
Sometimes it's as simple as this. They are 1-5 in games that were within one possession at the end of regulation. When your highest usage player is playing like this more than 15% of the way into the year, it hurts.
What's a 100% false? That they played well in the first half? They were +1 as a group over 8-10 minutes, buying the starters some valuable time off after an OT game the night before. Didn't work well in the second half obviously, but the starters weren't much better down the stretch either.
Tough loss on the road against a team playing well, after an OT game the night before. Maybe ease off on the pitchforks for IME.
Nah, he's been awful and deserves any criticism he gets. It doesn't mean he can't improve but through 13 games, he's been a pile of suck.
I mean we have two threads about how Nesmith and Romeo are headed for Canton and Cooperstown if only BB and Cora would give them snaps/at bats, then it's the coaches fault he plays them?
Tatum plays average they win easily, or Tatum plays badly they win.
Tatum plays average they win easily, or Tatum plays badly they win.
Agreed there, he really needs to step up and acknowledge that he could do better. BB is a great example of this, always saying he needs to coach better.
Besides the fact that +/- over such a SSS is meaningless. Below is not why 99% of the board is criticizing IME
this statement is 100% false, IME needs to mix and match players 7-11 with 1-6 in his rotations.
Staggering your bench players with your starters is a basic concept.
You just don't want to concentrate bench players, that haven't played all that much, on the court at the same time for numerous reasons.
PLUS Jabari should never have seen the light of day after walking up the court, not even a jog, a full-on stomp for the entire CAV possession in the first half. OR should we just ignore that also?
Heck they could have had Tristan Thompson at the 5 and won that game
that's how low the bar was
The Port Cellar. Where the Head Coach is criticized in the morning for riding his starters too hard only to be criticized in the evening for keeping his bench out there too long on the 2nd night of a road B2B while missing 3 rotation players. This place is truly Gold sometimes.
That's a gross oversimplification of things but it doesn't matter. This is a .500 team regardless of who is coaching. The coach doesn't seem inclined to develop young players and the C's young players aren't all that worth developing anyway.The Port Cellar. Where the Head Coach is criticized in the morning for riding his starters too hard only to be criticized in the evening for keeping his bench out there too long on the 2nd night of a road B2B while missing 3 rotation players. This place is truly Gold sometimes.
Hopefully things change soon because this season is looking to be worse than last year.
It's completely fair to say this team goes as Tatum (he's been worse than awful) goes AND the C's defense has been better.
But to claim people wanted 7-11 on the floor all at once isn't accurate. Just go back to the Toronto blowout, it was the same nonsense with the smurf unit.
using straw sucks
But to claim people wanted 7-11 on the floor all at once isn't accurate. Just go back to the Toronto blowout, it was the same nonsense with the smurf unit.
using straw sucks
That would require a Tatum injury. If he misses any significant time, the season is over anyway.
Hey, I said by 15.
I thought they looked really flat out of the gate last night. I watched the first half, and I wasn't so much impressed by the Celtics as surprised by how bad the Cavs looked.
Other than that, Tatum seemed to be dragging. He clanked a couple of shots off the front of the rim. I thought Ime made a great move, bringing in the deep bench early (not that he had a lot of choice, with Horford, Brown and Richardson out).
Count me as one of those who are puzzled by why Ime doesn't seem to want to use Kanter. Okay, he's not much of a defender. But he had a few really big games for Portland last year, playing that muscle game on offense near the basket. He brings size and rebounding.
My takeaway from last night's game: Forget about it. Celtics were on the road, back to back, missing three key players, against a team that has a decent record this year. I saw some good ball movement in the first half, and that was what was most encouraging to me. If there was any game that should be, "it's just one game," it was last night's game. I still think it's too early to predict what they'll be this year.
Yes. In their first 5 games, they were 2-5, but with 2 absolute beat-downs for losses. In the past 6, they are 4-2, with 3 convincing regulation wins and 2 close losses (by a combined 5 points). Clearly they are getting better.
The improvement has been on the defensive end. In the first 7 games, all but one opponent scored 100 points in regulation. In the last 6, only two have.
If I had to guess, I'd guess that Ime was thinking that Kanter's low post game wasn't going to work against Mobley and since Parker might hit a 3P, perhaps he might bring Mobley out of the paint.
I dunno. When players 2, 3, and 6 in the rotation aren't playing, the rotations are going to be screwed up. And maybe that second unit played pretty well in practice together. Who knows?
Ime isn’t coaching the OKC roster. He was given a handful of veterans to play alongside Tatum and Jaylen. Even with us not being in rebuilding mode there are minutes for the younger players provided they don’t suck out loud. When they are competing they earn minutes. Pritchard doesn’t deserve minutes based on performance. I’d we were rebuilding or in tank mode that wouldn’t matter but when you have a veteran team competing to win games it does matter.
Would anyone say no to this other than Chicago? I wouldn't even wait until the deadline. Anyway, Coby White makes his debut tonight.
He was mentioned before awhile back and I'm still not sure why Chicago would be looking to move him. Even with Ball and Caruso, there should be minutes for White. He doesn't turn 22 until February and showed year over year growth as a playmaker his 2nd year. He also appears to have around a league average 3 point shot and one would assume he'd improve in that area with age and the fact he's a really good FT shooter (.849 career, .901 last year). The only real downside is the 6'5 wingspan on a 6'4 frame. The 8'1.5 standing reach is fine. The 6'5 wingspan isn't even that problematic at the PG position.
What are the protections on the pick? Top 10? I could see maybe Chicago trading White for DS and like a top 5 protected pick if they thought the C's were going to be bad. If there's no room for White because of Caruso and Ball, I don't know how there would be room for DS either.
But yeah, I'd be all over White for DS and a protected 1st. Would anyone say no? I'm not sure the C"s would be materially worse with White, he fits into the Jay timeline, and it would be much easier for the C's to retain him. Plus there's a very good possibility he gets better. It's not hard to see White scoring 18-20 a game on .450/.375/.850 shooting, 5-6 rebounds, 5-6 assists. Not the perfect fit on D but should be passable and he fits well on O. He can create his own shot and hit the corner 3.
There is definitely some speculative reasoning on my part. Fake trades have less than a 1% chance of happening. BUT here are some reasons why Chicago may want DS++ and be willing to part with a young PG. It could be a win for both teams at different stages of contending. Bulls may be in full GFIN mode if they continue to play well.
1. HC Billy Donovan is very familiar with Schroder. DS had his best season on record for Billy in OKC. Their 3-guard line-up with DS was extremely effective that season. DS has been playing great lately and contending teams will want his services, even if it's for 1/2 a year + the playoffs when veteran ballhandling is a high priority. DS is better than White at the moment IMO, if you don't agree with that then this trade makes zero sense. No need to read further.
2. Coby and his agent may feel slighted with the Ball/Caruso signing. Zach LaVine can also play PG. That may create an unhealthy situation. Also, it may dampen White's future trade value if he's relegated to a bench role.
3. There is no way White will get the shots he got in the past with the addition of DeRozen/Vucevic. Coby not getting points = less $$$.
4. We saw how Karnisovas felt about Markkenan, he may have a similar unattached feeling about White, who he didn't draft. Why sign 2 PGs, draft a guard and your franchise player, LaVine, can also play PG. Seems odd.
5. Chicago can dream on Patrick Williams as their young stud. As we have seen with the Celtics you can't really have numerous young players playing key roles
6. White will start getting expensive after next season
7. Adding a Boston 1st, could be used to add veteran talent at the trade deadline
The Celtic reasoning is obvious.
1. The DS deal was a great value signing.
2. When you're a 7-8 seed/play-in team, there is no reason to hang on to 1yr contracts that they can't re-sign.
3. The best way to extract value is trade the player/contract. White would be a downgrade from DS this season BUT does it matter if they are 41-41 or 43-39? Milwaukee/Nets will sweep this team in a heartbeat.
4. They need a ballhandler to play alongside the JAYs for future seasons so Smart can return to being a wing/secondary ballhandler (or be traded in a bigger package).
The Celtic's fortunes could change if Tatum and Brown start playing well. BUT still believe this team is a year away from contending, even if the JAYs return to their All-Star/ascending form. So I want this team to develop a younger/controllable PG around them.
As far as the Celtic draft pick, I don't really care all that much about draft picks now. With the Jays approaching 25, they should start packaging picks to upgrade the roster around them for next season (like they did to move Kemba for Horford). They should also look at combining/trading some of their younger players this summer (Langford, Nesmith, PP, GW).
I'm not concerned with the pick either unless it ends up being top 5 or maybe top 10. Also, Patrick Williams is out for the rest of the season.
Its still very early but defensive stats are always interesting. Smart is third in deflections per game and sixth for total deflections. Meanwhile, Schroder is tied at fourth for both loose balls recovered per game and loose balls recovered overall. Finally, Horford is second overall in both contested threes per game as well as contested shots per game.
I understand I am on my own tiny island over here but I am still pretty bullish on this team's prospects given their defense. Offense feels like it can be found or sourced from elsewhere in season whereas defense is more a function of organizational philosophy. I cannot see the future so I won't predict how they will finish or how far they will go however my base case is that over the next few weeks, they will continue to improve their offensive approach, especially with Brown back and they will deepen out the rotation. YRMV.
I understand I am on my own tiny island over here but I am still pretty bullish on this team's prospects given their defense. Offense feels like it can be found or sourced from elsewhere in season whereas defense is more a function of organizational philosophy. I cannot see the future so I won't predict how they will finish or how far they will go however my base case is that over the next few weeks, they will continue to improve their offensive approach, especially with Brown back and they will deepen out the rotation. YRMV.
There's always a possibility the team is a few ( or several) games over .500 come the trade deadline and adding players makes sense, especially if those players are here for next year and beyond. I'm not all that bullish on the team but the NBA is weird and if you can add talent, you add talent. If they can acquire another Evan Fournier for nothing, they should do it. Especially if the player is here beyond this year.
It just seems if offense was so easy to find elsewhere, they'd have more offense. Then again, Fournier was cheaper than Gordon.
I'm with you on this island for mostly the same reasons, they look better on defense than they did last season at any point, and I think the offense will improve as Tatum finds his game. Their 3PT defense is much better, I believe they're 6th in the NBA after finishing 22nd last year. They're 25th in the NBA in 3PT percentage, after being 10th last season. I don't believe the 3PT defense is a fluke and it looks sustainable to me. The 3PT shooting seems like a function of Tatum shooting 32% and Horford shooting 24%. If you expect that to continue, then I suppose it makes sense to be panicking.
The loss Saturday night sucked, but I'm not ready to make definitive pronouncements based on that. Others have correctly pointed out the context of that loss (second night of a back-to-back, after playing overtime, missing three of your top eight, including two starters) and I buy that. I'm sure some folks think of that as an excuse, but I would say it's just context, and context is the enemy of the hot take.
To be 6-7 when Tatum has been pretty consistently awful to start the season, and when your second-best player has missed 5 games, I think is fine for a rookie coach. And that improvement in 3PT defense has something to do with the coach, though obviously some of it is taking bad defenders like Kemba and Fournier out of the rotation. I expect Ime to improve as time goes on as well, he's learning on the job, and I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for a while longer. I think the "trade Schroder" and "they're a .500 team going nowhere NBA purgatory" stuff is a bit premature. But, we'll see.
Ok we are definitely on the same island.
Regarding the observation that @Cesar Crespo made about defense being valued more highly than offense, we kind of have the ultimate example in Kanter who has some elite offensive skills but whose defense all but negates them. Kanter's DNPs may have something to do with his statements but the majority of them are a function of the fact that he is targeted almost instantly upon checking in. Portland struggled in part last year because they had few options besides Kanter minutes early in the season and he was a turnstile for them on D.
Closer this year's rotation, its why some here are hoping so hard on Langford and Nesmith to develop. Cost controlled wings who can defend and shoot credibly are obviously a gold standard for a reason in a league where defensive weakness is mercilessly punished.
Do the “second night of a B2B and shorthanded” people realize that the Cavs were also on their second night of a B2B without 3 key players as well? That’s the REAL context without a hot take necessary. So many excuses…..they gave away a nearly certain W. Tonight they should play a focused 48 if they care enough to be pissed off about the loss.
I'm not denying that Saturday's loss was a bad one, I don't think anyone else who has made a similar argument is either. I'm just not willing to make a ton of meaning from it given that context, I don't think it's particularly representative of anything for this team moving forward, and "Kevin Love didn't play either" is not really compelling me to change my thinking.
If two teams are very shorthanded and on the second night of a B2B, I would tend to think it favors the home team, especially when that club has a better overall record.
We aren't going to convince one another and I am certainly not even remotely close to judging Udoka as a coach yet or proclaiming this season a loss. Others have seen enough and they may be 100% correct. The good news is that it will all be revealed by the passage of time. And if it makes you feel better, I will try to be the first to give you props if you are proven correct.
We aren't going to convince one another and I am certainly not even remotely close to judging Udoka as a coach yet or proclaiming this season a loss. Others have seen enough and they may be 100% correct. The good news is that it will all be revealed by the passage of time. And if it makes you feel better, I will try to be the first to give you props if you are proven correct.
Love on his own wouldn’t make an impact just as J-Rich on his own wouldn’t but when his 20mpg along with Markkanen and Sexton out you are left with Garland as your entire offense. It’s funny to read how context is only one-sided toward the Celtics agenda that’s all.
I did find this stat from a betting website that supports the idea that Saturday's loss was, in fact, as bad as some say:
I am still unmoved by the second half of a B2B loss on the road with several key players out.
I understand where you're coming from, I was being slightly facetious in my post. Brown and Sexton cancel each other out. But, neither Markkanen or Love is as good as Horford, to my mind. He's a crucial player for this Celtics team on both ends, for a variety of reasons. I suppose that's partially a roster construction issue, the lack of competent big depth, but I can't really blame Ime for that. It's much harder for them to win when he (or TL) is out.
No I hear ya and don’t mean to single out you even though you are who I’m responding toward. I was referring to a much larger group using the excuse angle.
I don't disagree with much of what you said BUT the "trade Schroder" idea is trying to maximize assets in a year when the odds are very long on the Celtics even making the EC Finals. Haven't we've seen enough assets walk away for nothing, while we wishcast?
If "purgatory" is upsetting let's call this season what it really is (and has been before it started). It's a "bridge" year to the start of the JAYs peak, while other NBA superstars start to age out. I'm vehemently against blowing it up and trading Jaylen Brown, that's much more apocalyptic.
PLUS it's going to take longer than this season to adapt to IME's style/system. He's a rookie HC that is learning on the job and developing his style. No legitimate poster is saying IME should be fired.
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I thought last year was a bridge year to this year, when the Jays we’re going to be ready to lead and be at their peak. That’s been pushed back to next year?
Al's contract size will probably be used as part of a much bigger deal
The beauty of DS's contract is it's so easy to match without a contender having to give up veteran pieces