Analysis of Celtics Games, '21-'22 Season

This was a frustrating one. The Celtics - as a team and as individuals - just had long stretches of time where they were just off. The officials also took some key plays off.

Jayson Tatum shot 4 for 8 from the line. From the line. Also 1 of 8 from three. He had some great drives and scored 23 points anyway, but if he has a decent shooting night this is a different game.

Jaylen Brown came into the 4th quater with just 3 points. He got fouled, hit his free throws, and then went on to score 10 in the quarter. Important needed offense when he provided it, but he was MIA for 3 quarters. Shot 5-16 overall.

Marcus Smart was off for much of the game, locked in during a key run late in the third. Shot 1 of 7, 1 of 5 from 3 including a couple of ill-advised ones.

While they were mostly playing poorly in the first half (which ended with them down 10), Dennis Schroder kept them in it with a 17 point half. He also hit a big three pointer late in the 4th. But until that 3 he scored only 2 points in the second half, finishing with just 22, also 6 assists. When Tatum was resting early in 4th, Ime had Schroder out there, and he basically did nothing. Pounded the ball a lot, didn't create much offwnse for himself or his teammates.

Parker came off the bench and gave instand first half offense.

Rob and Horford both had double doubles, all adding 4 assists, Rob adding 4 blocks. AL was on a minutes restriction but he was a beast out there. I'm convinced that Al is so happy to be back in Boston with Jayson, Jaylen, Marcus, and Rob, along with his Atlanta teammate Schoder and his Philly assistant Udoka, that he is just full of energy. His 2/3 of a season off last year probably helped.

Grant was a non-presence in the first half, but he contributed a key 6 points late in the 3rd quater, all on free throws.

Last in the game with the Celtics trying to come back and having the lead down to three, the Celtics got absolutely screwed by the officials on back to back Washinging possessions. First, Horford had a phenomenal clean block of Harrell but was whistled for the foul. Next Washington possession, the ball deflects out of bounds and Horford and Brown both chase to save it. Brown, hanging in the air, saves it cleanly. Horford, behind Brown, lands out of bounds right before Brown taps it back into play. Ref must have seen Horford's foot down or thought they were touching each other.

Jabari gave them instead first half offense - 7 points in 9 minutes.

Richardson was invisible. Nesmith and Pritchard were DNPs.

Washington lost Gafford early to an injury. In the second half, Ime went small (either one big or just Grant) when Harrell was out and that keyed the comeback in the third.

Jayson picked up a T bitching at the refs. If he keeps doing this (or anyone else), he's essentially thumbing his nose at the coach.

Thoughts....
This team has been far less than the sum of it's parts. Some of that is bedding guys into new roles, etc. Some of it is coaching/rotations, some is just guys playing poorly.

The coaching is a concern to me. The defense is a mess, they don't really have an offense, and we're 5 games in and we've already had multiple games of him having post game PCs where he complains about effort.

If you read a lot of the comments about the Celtics play, a lot of it seems coach related. Of course that was true when Brad Stevens was around too.

Maybe they need a total overhaul, not a continuation of Danny Ainge.

Or they need to trade Jaylen Brown for a better fit (a player of similar quality but better at getting others involved and less of a scorer).

Or it's just 5 games and everything is fine or Covid.

Cesar Crespo said:

If you read a lot of the comments about the Celtics play, a lot of it seems coach related. Of course that was true when Brad Stevens was around too.

Maybe they need a total overhaul, not a continuation of Danny Ainge.

Or they need to trade Jaylen Brown for a better fit (a player of similar quality but better at getting others involved and less of a scorer).

Or it's just 5 games and everything is fine or Covid.

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I think it's a lot of things. I think they need a real PG, I think they have consistency of effort issues, and as someone who DIDN'T think coaching was the issue last year... I think Udoka is a pretty major downgrade from Stevens. This team looks poorly coached. The defense has no structure and guys seem rarely on the same page, on offense... it's a dreaded "meh, who needs sets", and the rotations are baffling every game... and not even in the same ways every game, just a guy trying random things.

It's 5 games, so they could easily turn things around... but the games all count the same, and they have been pretty brutal so far.

Cellar-Door said:

I think it's a lot of things. I think they need a real PG, I think they have consistency of effort issues, and as someone who DIDN'T think coaching was the issue last year... I think Udoka is a pretty major downgrade from Stevens. This team looks poorly coached. The defense has no structure and guys seem rarely on the same page, on offense... it's a dreaded "meh, who needs sets", and the rotations are baffling every game... and not even in the same ways every game, just a guy trying random things.

It's 5 games, so they could easily turn things around... but the games all count the same, and they have been pretty brutal so far.

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Let's hope Udoka grows into the job.

Cellar-Door said:

Thoughts....
This team has been far less than the sum of it's parts. Some of that is bedding guys into new roles, etc. Some of it is coaching/rotations, some is just guys playing poorly.

The coaching is a concern to me. The defense is a mess, they don't really have an offense, and we're 5 games in and we've already had multiple games of him having post game PCs where he complains about effort.

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Seems like the only time they are engaged on D is when they are putting some early pressure on the ballhandler and not just conceding the 3pt line screen and switch D.

Forcing the screen well outside the arc also allows the option of going under the pick without handing away an open look.

Even token pressure forces the O to initiate their offense later and force some bad/rushed shots. Otherwise they are so passive.

Edit: I’m willing to give a pass on a lot of the coaching side, however, because last season was one of the least enjoyable sports viewing experiences I’ve ever had, so I’m never going to pine for last year’s “effort.”

Cellar-Door said:

I think it's a lot of things. I think they need a real PG, I think they have consistency of effort issues, and as someone who DIDN'T think coaching was the issue last year... I think Udoka is a pretty major downgrade from Stevens. This team looks poorly coached. The defense has no structure and guys seem rarely on the same page, on offense... it's a dreaded "meh, who needs sets", and the rotations are baffling every game... and not even in the same ways every game, just a guy trying random things.

It's 5 games, so they could easily turn things around... but the games all count the same, and they have been pretty brutal so far.

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Lonzo would have been great. He covers the Jay's weaknesses, can switch, is great off the ball. So it's possible they could acquire another player that would makes the Jays more compatible.

As a duo, they are fine but as HRB said earlier, they aren't MJ/Pippen, IT/Dumars, Curry/Thompson, PP/KG. They are more like Dame and CJ. That's fine, but it's not going to win any titles unless you acquire a wing who is among the top 20-40 best players in the NBA. Brown and Tatum are probably slightly better than that pairing. I think Ball would move the needle a lot but there aren't exactly many Lonzo Ball types out there either.

In some ways, I think the C's would be better with Malcom Brogdon than Jaylen Brown. I know that's crazy because Jaylen is quite a bit better than Brogdon and fit cant matter that much. I'm not sure if it'll be easier to add the 3rd piece to Tatum and Brown or to trade Brown (for someone comparable in talent, not Brogdon) for someone who is jelly to Tatum's PB. Moving JB for a player who involves others more improves players 3-15 whereas adding a 3rd star may only improve players 1-3, depending on who the 3rd star is. I'm not sure Beal fixes things if the goal is to win a title. It would help just because he's that good but he's not a natural playmaker either. He's decent despite that. Donovan Mitchell would be a great fit but that's not happening for at least 3 or 4 years if it ever does.

What playmaker who isn't a top 40ish player would make enough of a difference with the Jays to make them serious contenders if Jayson stays in the "2nd tier" of players? The 2nd tier is very small mind you, about as small as the first. It's also far different than the 3rd. I can't think of any, and none that are available. That's why I think trading Jaylen for a star PG might be the answer. Of course, I'm not even sure there is a 6'4+ playmaker with similar value to Jaylen.

There are non PGs that would be better fits with Jayson too. KAT comes to mind, but KAT is staying in Minnesota. They are going to be a very good team for years to come if healthy.

I'd have to look to see if there are any 2nd bananas/Robins that would be a much better fit than Brown. And that might be available. Also for PGs who would make Tatum/Brown an above average pairing rather than an average one.

There was a reason a lot of us wanted Ball and always named Ball. It was never going to happen though.

5/82=6.1%

DeJesus Built My Hotrod said:

5/82=6.1%

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Nice quick correction lol.

Cesar Crespo said:

Nice quick correction lol.

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I made a typo. You called it out. Good work!

DeJesus Built My Hotrod said:

I made a typo. You called it out. Good work!

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Or I've done the same thing a million times and thought it was relatable and funny.

edit: I'm a math nerd. Weird sense of humor.

Cesar Crespo said:

Or I've done the same thing a million times and thought it was relatable and funny.

edit: I'm a math nerd. Weird sense of humor.

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I deal with basis points and (sadly) fractions thereof so actual percentages will throw me off.

Back to the team, please don't take this as an attempt to dampen discussion but I was resigned to a middling start. The core is the same but this is an all new coaching staff and a good chunk of the rotation is brand new. Its not a surprise that everyone is trying to figure it out including Udoka and his crew (e.g. Jaylen comments).

I am inclined to give them about 20-30 games to get into a rhythm but context will matter - are they repeating mistakes etc and losing or are they adjusting and suffering from bad luck.

My .0002

Eddie Jurak said:

Jaylen Brown came into the 4th quater with just 3 points. He got fouled, hit his free throws, and then went on to score 10 in the quarter. Important needed offense when he provided it, but he was MIA for 3 quarters. Shot 5-16 overall.

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JB looked less than 100% to me. I was shocked that he couldn't take advantage of KCP.

I was hoping they'd build off their second half defense against CHA but no such luck. I guess this switch everything defense id the way they are going to play and hopefully they'll get better at it. OTOH, WAS played a lot of drop coverage and it wasn't like BOS was killing them by hitting open shots.

And earlier today I said JRich has been okay but he was not tonight.

Cesar Crespo said:

Maybe they need a total overhaul, not a continuation of Danny Ainge.

Or they need to trade Jaylen Brown for a better fit (a player of similar quality but better at getting others involved and less of a scorer).

Or it's just 5 games and everything is fine or Covid.

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1. I expected an overhaul and in Brads first offseason while he added Horford, Schroder, J-Rich and Hernangomez…….there is still a ton of stale leftover pieces. I’ll give him a pass as it was his first offseason on the job.

2. I’ll warn you one time and one time only…….stay outta my lane with the Jaylen trade!!

3. I don’t buy the “time to gel” or whatever. At this level or really at any level you either fit together or you don’t. The teams that make excuses about needing time are only acknowledging that something is wrong with the natural chemistry on the court. These things aren’t easily fixed but hopefully aren’t severe. I don’t see the Cavs or Bulls complaining about all of their new pieces……in general, it’s a bs excuse.

DeJesus Built My Hotrod said:

5/82=6.1%

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Indeed. I'm honestly surprised by all the "sky is falling" takes after 5 games.

Various guys don't look right just yet, not sure why.

Eddie Jurak said:

Indeed. I'm honestly surprised by all the "sky is falling" takes after 5 games.

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I think it's because this is so reminiscent of how the C's started last season (and then played the rest of the way).

I'm disappointed by not really surprised, if that makes sense? I agree they don't look cohesive at either end. It will take time to build in the right mindsets as Udoka has tried to change things at both ends---more motion/passing on offense and more switching on defense---plus a fair amount of player turnover. But they don't look good right now.

In terms of individual players (putting aside that how they fit is critical and not yet working well), impressed with Grant, Schroder, Al, TL. Disappointed in Nesmith, Smart, and Richardson.

Udoka has a very strong pedigree and it is very early. For whatever set of reasons they were stale last year and key guys---Jaylen, Jayson, Smart---are going to take time to fully adjust. I'd like to see some more spurts of good defense to believe we're on the path at that end, but recognize this is going to take time.

It’s been said above but it bears repeating: if Ime is calling the players out for effort essentially every other night at the beginning of his tenure, that seems pretty bad.

The team seemed to love him and gave him the big celebration for his first win, but they sure don’t look like they’re going to lay it all out on the floor every night for him.

This smells like late-season Brad last year already, a steady stream of, “I’m not sure what to tell you guys. We just got beat. The NBA is a competitive league and if you don’t bring the effort every night, the other team is going to take advantage. Simple as that. We’ll keep working, but the players have to want it.”

128 said:

I think it's because this is so reminiscent of how the C's started last season (and then played the rest of the way).

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Yeah. I know it’s a comforting to assume they’ll figure it out…but sometimes teams don’t. Ime calling out effort after the first couple of weeks is no bueno. I certainly hope they improve because this team sucks to watch right now.

They've got to be more consistent on defense. Got slaughtered by Harrell on the block and boards last night. They continue to struggle with communicating on switches and rotations. Smart seemed better on D last night, but they never really applied any extended pressure. It's baffling: between Smart, Richardson, Horford, TL, and Tatum, you've got five guys with great defensive reps... But they can't get a stop. I think they'll lock in eventually. They looked tired last night, and it's a young season, and they've been on the road, and they've already played two OT thrillers... But it's been frustrating nonetheless. Not sure what the hell is going on with Richardson. He doesn't look right on either end.

On offense, I don't know. Brown was really bad last night, that's been covered, but Point Tatum was also struggling to create for others. Schroder looked pretty good again, but he also missed nine shots.

Richardson has got to take more shots on the second unit - preferably from Smart, who is now shooting a miserable 25% from the field on the season. He's got to be more assertive. I wouldn't mind seeing more of a timeshare at the 2 between him and Smart - that way they can both leave it all out there every night. But Richardson has got to get it going first, on both ends.

Jabari was fine again. Defense was meh to bad again, but he wasn't killing us with his minutes.

HomeRunBaker said:

1. I expected an overhaul and in Brads first offseason while he added Horford, Schroder, J-Rich and Hernangomez…….there is still a ton of stale leftover pieces. I’ll give him a pass as it was his first offseason on the job.

2. I’ll warn you one time and one time only…….stay outta my lane with the Jaylen trade!!

3. I don’t buy the “time to gel” or whatever. At this level or really at any level you either fit together or you don’t. The teams that make excuses about needing time are only acknowledging that something is wrong with the natural chemistry on the court. These things aren’t easily fixed but hopefully aren’t severe. I don’t see the Cavs or Bulls complaining about all of their new pieces……in general, it’s a bs excuse.

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I think the "time to gel" can be a valid excuse for some teams. Installing new defensive schemes and rotations can take some time. Brooklyn and the 2 LA teams are a combined 5-9. The defending champs lost to the Timberwolves at home, and the Suns are 1-3. And the small sample size thingy can apply; every team in history has had a bad 5 game stretch at some point in their respective seasons. The poster team for "time to gel" is the 2010-11 Heat, who started out 9-8.

But, I'll be the first to say that this team is not the 2010-11 Heat, and while I'm not surprised at the slow start, I'm not necessarily buying the "time to gel" argument either. The root causes could run more deep than just players and coaches trying to figure things out. Still I'm going to wait until 20 games have passed just to see how the team is playing at that point, as I think that will be a more telling point than today. By then we will have a good idea how the players are responding to the circumstances. And, yes, the 2007-08 Celtics used their first 32 games as a "time to gel" to the tune of a 29-3 record.

wade boggs chicken dinner said:

JB looked less than 100% to me. I was shocked that he couldn't take advantage of KCP.

I was hoping they'd build off their second half defense against CHA but no such luck. I guess this switch everything defense id the way they are going to play and hopefully they'll get better at it. OTOH, WAS played a lot of drop coverage and it wasn't like BOS was killing them by hitting open shots.

And earlier today I said JRich has been okay but he was not tonight.

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Very concerned about three things - two of which you touch on here. First is Jaylen's health. He had a bad knee all of last year, and he's already missed a game this year because of it. And he looks like he did last year with the bad knee in his bad games, but he looks like pre-injury Jaylen in his good games. They need to figure the knee out.

Second, Richardson is a total nothing out there. I thought he was bigger than he looks t least, but he seems tiny. It seems like a real bad contract.

Third, Smart is completely lost for more than half of every game. I know there was some preseason chatter that something was up with him. He missed the plane, and got suspended. Feels like he needs a change of scenery, but can't be traded for three months.

Hopefully Romeo comes back strong and can help with the Richardson problem a bit. And maybe some of the Smart issue as well.

Any team that needs to be rescued by Romeo is in deep, deep doo doo.

Smart is off to an especially brutal start. 4-for-13 from 2 point range and 8-for-34 from 3 point range with a career high 19.6 percent turnover rate per Brian Robb. I wanted him off this team a couple years ago and thought it was a mistake to trust him to be a facilitator for Tatum/Brown. SSS, but he's brutal.

It’s so early. They could turn this around next week and race to an eventual 3 seed, and no one would remember or care about the slow start.

That being said I did not share the same optimism about this team that much of the board did. The offseason approach seemed to be about tinkering around the edges, replacing bench guys and gaining more flexibility. That’s fine, but this team was not good last year and it’s possible that tinkering and a fresh coaching voice were not enough, especially in light of how deep and strong the East is this year. This team could be right back in the play-in.

cheech13 said:

It’s so early. They could turn this around next week and race to an eventual 3 seed, and no one would remember or care about the slow start.

That being said I did not share the same optimism about this team that much of the board did. The offseason approach seemed to be about tinkering around the edges, replacing bench guys and gaining more flexibility. That’s fine, but this team was not good last year and it’s possible that tinkering and a fresh coaching voice were not enough, especially in light of how deep and strong the East is this year. This team could be right back in the play-in.

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I was one of the optimists but given what I have seen so far, I am no longer. If there were things to be optimistic about interspersed with the bad things we're seeing then that would be a different story and we could plausibly throw the "flip the switch" notion into the mix. I just don't see any reason for that happening.

Fool me once...

This team has the collective attention span of a toddler. Last night they started well and were energized, FOR 6 MINUTES, and then wandered on the court for the remainder of the half and most of the game. I think there still remains a "flip the switch" mindset that Coach U better find a way to convince them it won't work against most teams.

I think Coach U is still trying combos and chemistry and its only been 5 games, but sometimes you need to light the bunsen burner to get some fucking reaction.

Strike4 said:

I was one of the optimists but given what I have seen so far, I am no longer. If there were things to be optimistic about interspersed with the bad things we're seeing then that would be a different story and we could plausibly throw the "flip the switch" notion into the mix. I just don't see any reason for that happening.

Fool me once...

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Yipes, it could get real late real early if the stumbling blocks prove identical to last year’s.

Hopefully the SSS doesn’t become an LSS, and I’m willing to accept they need time to gel and settle into roles.

That said, the voice that’s asking if the defensive challenges are really scheme related, and noting Schroder is career 33 from 3, etc. is getting louder.

Three things:
1) Come on Js, we need consistently solid production from both to be competitive. Why is this not a given? Will it be?

2) What’s up with the energy? It’s like they are led by General Malaise this year too.

3) Smart? The numbers are too SSS for me to even point at, and I’ve been his apologist for sure, but he just looks not focused somehow…like he’s barely contained and about to spill into chaos.

Eddie Jurak said:

Indeed. I'm honestly surprised by all the "sky is falling" takes after 5 games.

Various guys don't look right just yet, not sure why.

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It's because they never play a game for a full 48 minutes, the same as last year. The team is also incredibly unenjoyable to watch in the early going. Same as last year.

The team hasn't been fun to watch for awhile.

cheech13 said:

It’s so early. They could turn this around next week and race to an eventual 3 seed, and no one would remember or care about the slow start.

That being said I did not share the same optimism about this team that much of the board did. The offseason approach seemed to be about tinkering around the edges, replacing bench guys and gaining more flexibility. That’s fine, but this team was not good last year and it’s possible that tinkering and a fresh coaching voice were not enough, especially in light of how deep and strong the East is this year. This team could be right back in the play-in.

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Yeah, I said it a few days ago that the talent on this team is actually less than last year. Not many agreed. They had 7 solid rotation players going into the year without banking on any improvement from Grant, RL, AN and PP. JRich has looked completely lost. So now they are down to 6 (maybe 7 if you add Grant).

bankshot1 said:

This team has the collective attention span of a toddler. Last night they started well and were energized, FOR 6 MINUTES, and then wandered on the court for the remainder of the half and most of the game. I think there still remains a "flip the switch" mindset that Coach U better find a way to convince them it won't work against most teams.

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Yeah, it's concerning that Al Horford had this to say five games into the season: "We have a lot of depth with this group and a lot of guys that are hungry, that want to play. ... The minutes that we get out there, guys need to make the most out of them. ... We should never have to question effort."

View: https://twitter.com/ByJayKing/status/1453548900439240709

I think the team needs Al's leadership, court smarts on O and D, and ball handling and his general maturity. For some reason there was a big chunk of last night's game where IIRC he was sitting and the game went to shit.

I think Al's a real positive, damn shame he's 35.

This team also need a real PG, I'm not sure Schroeder is the guy. He brings energy but it seems its mostly spent on himself.

And the "it's early" stuff is even less applicable because the same personnel are connected with the same issues as last year and before. It's one thing if we were talking about structural issues related to new players or coaching. We're once again talking about Marcus doing Marcus things, poor defense, not executing, etc.

Strike4 said:

And the "it's early" stuff is even less applicable because the same personnel are connected with the same issues as last year and before. It's one thing if we were talking about structural issues related to new players or coaching. We're once again talking about Marcus doing Marcus things, poor defense, not executing, etc.

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Yeah, this isn't just a team missing shots.

There's still time to fix things though. 77 more games. For better or worse.

Cesar Crespo said:

It's because they never play a game for a full 48 minutes, the same as last year. The team is also incredibly unenjoyable to watch in the early going. Same as last year.

The team hasn't been fun to watch for awhile.

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I wish I could find the statistics on this but I'd bet over the last two year, there would be a strong correlation between the number of passes the Jays make and the Cs winning.

The team isn't enjoyable to watch because when the going gets tough, the Cs turn into a one-on-one basketball team and then it appears to devolve into the "It's my turn" basketball. To my eyes, that's what happened last night only the shots stopped falling in the 4Q.

wade boggs chicken dinner said:

The team isn't enjoyable to watch because when the going gets tough, the Cs turn into a one-on-one basketball team and then it appears to devolve into the "It's my turn" basketball. To my eyes, that's what happened last night only the shots stopped falling in the 4Q.

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This happens a lot more than gets talked about - because when it works and Tatum or Brown carries the team to victory, we overlook it (Hornets game). It is impressive when Tatum is on and hits very difficult shots and drains 3's, but even when watching it you know it's not a sound team strategy, nor is it repeatable with enough regularity. It's almost an indication of how wrong things are when they only time the Celtics can win is when somebody goes off. (That's an exaggeration but still.)

RedOctober3829 said:

Smart is off to an especially brutal start. 4-for-13 from 2 point range and 8-for-34 from 3 point range with a career high 19.6 percent turnover rate per Brian Robb. I wanted him off this team a couple years ago and thought it was a mistake to trust him to be a facilitator for Tatum/Brown. SSS, but he's brutal.

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He’s the only player/thing on this team I am truly concerned about.

It’s only 5 games in with a new coach and a new system and key players have missed practice and game time with injuries and illness. It’s not shocking it’s been a rocky start.

However, with the noise surrounding Marcus (suspension, people saying he doesn’t seem right) combined with the way he’s looked on the court…something seems very wrong. He’s been actively awful 4 of the 5 games this year and seems to not be playing with the energy we are accustomed to from him.

he did an interview at the beginning of the season where he basically said he still thinks he’s underpaid, although he recognized that it was the most the Celtics could offer. It also seems Ime is much more focused on the Jays becoming leaders and not quite propping Smart up the way Brad always seemed too. Could a combination of those things be effecting him both on and off the court?

wade boggs chicken dinner said:

I wish I could find the statistics on this but I'd bet over the last two year, there would be a strong correlation between the number of passes the Jays make and the Cs winning.

The team isn't enjoyable to watch because when the going gets tough, the Cs turn into a one-on-one basketball team and then it appears to devolve into the "It's my turn" basketball. To my eyes, that's what happened last night only the shots stopped falling in the 4Q.

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This is 100% correct. When you have the “your turn/my turn offense” and combined that with the fact that bascially no player on the team can get consistent easy buckets or get to the FT line….you can get some ugly ass offense and prolonged slumps where it seems like no one is doing anything

Strike4 said:

This happens a lot more than gets talked about - because when it works and Tatum or Brown carries the team to victory, we overlook it (Hornets game). It is impressive when Tatum is on and hits very difficult shots and drains 3's, but even when watching it you know it's not a sound team strategy, nor is it repeatable with enough regularity. It's almost an indication of how wrong things are when they only time the Celtics can win is when somebody goes off. (That's an exaggeration but still.)

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I understand what you say but I think the CHA game is a bad example because as posted elsewhere (JT thread?) JT had 8 assists and could have had as many as something like 17 if people hit shots.

I think JB is a great person and I'm super glad that he's on the Cs but someone has got to get in his ear and tell him that if he wants to win a championship, the best way to do that is to make other players better. For all of our hand-wringing about the rest of the rotation the fact of the matter is that beyond stars, the other parts of a NBA's team rotation is basically fungible and it's up to the superstars to make them better whether on defense or offense. By my eyes, JB really more than anyone to figure out how he can makes his teammates better, particularly when JT is sitting.

tbb345 said:

he did an interview at the beginning of the season where he basically said he still thinks he’s underpaid, although he recognized that it was the most the Celtics could offer. It also seems Ime is much more focused on the Jays becoming leaders and not quite propping Smart up the way Brad always seemed too. Could a combination of those things be effecting him both on and off the court?

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Yes Marcus isn't shooting well but he doesn't really have a role on offense these days with Schroder handling the ball as much as he does.

I'd be more concerned about Smart if he wasn't balling out on defense. But in terms of effort plays - getting back on TOs, guarding mismatches, giving up his body - to my eyes, he's been the most consistent non-big defender.

But yeah, let's hope he starts shooting better soon.

wade boggs chicken dinner said:

Yes Marcus isn't shooting well but he doesn't really have a role on offense these days with Schroder handling the ball as much as he does.

I'd be more concerned about Smart if he wasn't balling out on defense. But in terms of effort plays - getting back on TOs, guarding mismatches, giving up his body - to my eyes, he's been the most consistent non-big defender.

But yeah, let's hope he starts shooting better soon.

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Yeah as long as he doesn't start throwing the ball away 5-6 times a game, Marcus isn't the problem here. He's the only non big that consistently impacts plays on defense at least. I too wish that he'd shoot less, but this is what happens when the ball movement stops and there's aren't any actions at all. Launching no hope 3s is his version of "ok fine, I'll do something." It's worse than Tatum's "dribble for 10 seconds and launch stepback" because Tatum hits more. And it's worse than Brown's "put my head down and spin my way to the rim" because he hits more too. But in all three cases, it's generally bad offense.

wade boggs chicken dinner said:

Yes Marcus isn't shooting well but he doesn't really have a role on offense these days with Schroder handling the ball as much as he does.

I'd be more concerned about Smart if he wasn't balling out on defense. But in terms of effort plays - getting back on TOs, guarding mismatches, giving up his body - to my eyes, he's been the most consistent non-big defender.

But yeah, let's hope he starts shooting better soon.

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I'm very concerned about Smart, because what made him solid was that he was very good on D, and while not a good 3pt shooter, he brought some minimal value on offense. The wastelands are loaded with guys who were really good on D but terrible on O.

This year he is:
1. Taking 72% of his shots from 3
2. Taking a career low % of his shots at the rim, or withing 10 feet.
3. Drawing FTs at an all-time low rate
4. Has his lowest AST% since 15-16
5. Highest TOV% of his career
6. Lowest TRB% of his career

All on a career low USG.

He's been unequivocably bad at just about everything except defense, and you can't play a guy like that more than 15 MPG.

Have the Celtics erred by trying to follow a defensive strategy that requires significant effort? To be more specific, is the heavy switching approach to defense too reliant on player effort? In other words, is it the best possible strategy with a team that is super committed, but not compatible with today's NBA players?

it's far from a perfect analogy, but I remember back when Pitino wanted to implement the full court press. Was highly effective for him in college, when college coaches had absolute authority, but didn't translate super well to the NBA.

Cellar-Door said:

I'm very concerned about Smart, because what made him solid was that he was very good on D, and while not a good 3pt shooter, he brought some minimal value on offense. The wastelands are loaded with guys who were really good on D but terrible on O.

This year he is:
1. Taking 72% of his shots from 3
2. Taking a career low % of his shots at the rim, or withing 10 feet.
3. Drawing FTs at an all-time low rate
4. Has his lowest AST% since 15-16
5. Highest TOV% of his career
6. Lowest TRB% of his career

All on a career low USG.

He's been unequivocably bad at just about everything except defense, and you can't play a guy like that more than 15 MPG.

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OTOH, Smart has a career high in REB% and STL% and is shooting 1.00% from the FT line.

As you indicate, Marcus doesn't have the ball in his hand as much. Yes, he's struggling on offense. Yes if this continues it will be a huge problem. But is not an effort issue, and he should be given IMO more than 5 games particularly since he thought he would be handling the ball more but he has ended up not doing that. Plus he's always been a super streaky shooter.

From a quick look at BRef's shot chart, it looks like he's shooting corner 3Ps okay but is miserable on above-the-break 3Ps. Maybe one solution is to move him to a corner instead of above-the-break while he is waiting for someone to pass to him, although the Cs would definitely lose floor balance if that happened.

The bigger issue arises if your concerns trump my long-term optimism and Marcus continues to be abysmal on offense. Can't imagine Marcus taking benching very well, or maybe he'll get more opportunities to play with the ball in his hands.

NomarsFool said:

Have the Celtics erred by trying to follow a defensive strategy that requires significant effort? To be more specific, is the heavy switching approach to defense too reliant on player effort? In other words, is it the best possible strategy with a team that is super committed, but not compatible with today's NBA players?

it's far from a perfect analogy, but I remember back when Pitino wanted to implement the full court press. Was highly effective for him in college, when college coaches had absolute authority, but didn't translate super well to the NBA.

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On paper, they have the talent to switch all day. That doesn't mean it will translate on the court though.

Paper champions.

Cesar Crespo said:

On paper, they have the talent to switch all day. That doesn't mean it will translate on the court though.

Paper champions.

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I don't even understand if they are in the "constant switch" defense anymore. I was watching Tatum go under screens all night last night, which he wouldn't be doing if they were switching. I watched Marcus chase Beal off the ball and then on the ball around, under and through a million screens.

I asked the question at one point in the game thread "Does this team even know if they are switching everything or not?" I honestly have no idea what kind of defense they are playing half the time.

Deathofthebambino said:

I don't even understand if they are in the "constant switch" defense anymore. I was watching Tatum go under screens all night last night, which he wouldn't be doing if they were switching. I watched Marcus chase Beal off the ball and then on the ball around, under and through a million screens.

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Do you mean 'over' screens? Under is what you do if you are switching, because it puts you between the pick setter and the basket, preventing the easy roll to the basket.

There were screwups in the NY game because not everyone was on the same page. They changed from switch everything to switch everything except for Rob on Randle. Randle sets a pick for Fournier, Brown goes under it thinking Rob would pick up Fournier, and that his (Brown's) job was to take Randle. Fournier stops and takes (and hits) a practice 3. Tatum made the same mistake.

Successful defense is always going to require significant effort. There isn't really a scheme, outside of a zone D, that can make up for deficiencies in effort. Having a KG-level transcendent switching monster or Gobert-level interior destroyer helps. I'm sure you could simplify the scheme a little bit but it still largely comes down to effort in the end. Fighting through/over picks, rotating like madmen, filling the passing lanes, over-communicating, etc. This is all universal stuff you need to have regardless of scheme.

Maybe my anecdotal recollection is bullshit and romanticized but those post-KG mid-teens teams were solid to great on D despite nearly always being undersized and underathletic. They didn't take anything for granted and fought on every possession because they knew they had to. Over the years we have replaced guys like Avery Bradley and Jae Crowder in the starting lineup with better players but have struggled to consistently backfill their toughness and defensive aggression particularly at the guard/wing level. Smart taking steps back on D is catastrophic, because we've lost the guys who take defense as personally as he does at his best.

Those teams always seemed better than the sum of their parts, and it's been about 4 seasons since anyone said that about the Celtics (Hayward/Kyrie injury year).