Ben Simmons wants out of Philadelphia

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OurF'ingCity

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Morey may very well be having conversations with teams now along the lines of "we can't swing a trade for Simmons now, but if you can hold out until December 15 we'd gladly trade [Player X] for him." If so, Morey has to weigh whether two months where Simmons' roster spot is just nonexistent is worth whatever potentially improved offers he may get later in the season. Once you factor in that there is a non-zero chance that Simmons buckles and ultimately does return to the team for some portion of that two-month-ish span (even if he's surly and underperforming), I can definitely see a world where Morey does nothing until December.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Morey may very well be having conversations with teams now along the lines of "we can't swing a trade for Simmons now, but if you can hold out until December 15 we'd gladly trade [Player X] for him." If so, Morey has to weigh whether two months where Simmons' roster spot is just nonexistent is worth whatever potentially improved offers he may get later in the season. Once you factor in that there is a non-zero chance that Simmons buckles and ultimately does return to the team for some portion of that two-month-ish span (even if he's surly and underperforming), I can definitely see a world where Morey does nothing until December.
Hoops rumours has a list of guys who can't be traded until December 15 here: https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2021/09/players-who-cant-be-traded-until-december-15-5.html. I assume since that they do this for a living, no big names are missing but obviously I could be wrong. But if this list is anywhere near accurate, I doubt there's anyone on this list that would cause Morey to wait until December 15.

There's another, shorter list of players who can't be traded until January 15 here: https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2021/09/players-who-cant-be-traded-until-january-15-5.html. There are a couple of guys who might be decent assets but wouldn't be centerpieces of any trades.

At this point, IMO, Morey is hoping that WAS or PDX get off to a really bad start and Dame or Beal demand out. Or some similar situation (maybe NO?).
 

Cellar-Door

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Hoops rumours has a list of guys who can't be traded until December 15 here: https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2021/09/players-who-cant-be-traded-until-december-15-5.html. I assume since that they do this for a living, no big names are missing but obviously I could be wrong. But if this list is anywhere near accurate, I doubt there's anyone on this list that would cause Morey to wait until December 15.

There's another, shorter list of players who can't be traded until January 15 here: https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2021/09/players-who-cant-be-traded-until-january-15-5.html. There are a couple of guys who might be decent assets but wouldn't be centerpieces of any trades.
It's more likely a situation where those guys play with a guy or guys that Morey does want, and you can't make the salaries match without one of them. That's a huge chunk of cap for a lot of teams that can't be used in trades.
 

sezwho

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All trades involve internal and external leverage. Internal = we are happy to keep player x on our roster. External = other suitors and/or the potential trader partner's internal considerations…
Not trying to be pedantic, but from a game theory perspective once you have more than one bidder how does internal leverage actually impact the outcome?

As long as one bidder has at least as much urgency as the seller, feels like sellers motivation less important.

Like if I have a van Gogh painting I could give two craps about, it doesn’t change what two bidders pay to have it at Sotheby’s
 

PedroKsBambino

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Not trying to be pedantic, but from a game theory perspective once you have more than one bidder how does internal leverage actually impact the outcome?

As long as one bidder has at least as much urgency as the seller, feels like sellers motivation less important.

Like if I have a van Gogh painting I could give two craps about, it doesn’t change what two bidders pay to have it at Sotheby’s
It does---external bidder number two may think they only have to beat external bidder number one but in fact they also have to beat the internal (no trade) option. And for the seller, part of your overall leverage is that no buyer knows your internal 'reservation' value or (with certainty) how many bidders you have. So both the internal and external continue to impact leverage until a deal is done.

The Simmons situation is somewhat unusual in that it seems very unlikely there is a true long-term internal option. He's going to get traded, so here the internal is less about "keeping him" as a player than it is about "what does Morey need to not end up in internal trouble with team/ownership?" That is still a hurdle to clear, but an easier one.
 

sezwho

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It does---external bidder number two may think they only have to beat external bidder number one but in fact they also have to beat the internal (no trade) option. And for the seller, part of your overall leverage is that no buyer knows your internal 'reservation' value or (with certainty) how many bidders you have. So both the internal and external continue to impact leverage until a deal is done.

The Simmons situation is somewhat unusual in that it seems very unlikely there is a true long-term internal option. He's going to get traded, so here the internal is less about "keeping him" as a player than it is about "what does Morey need to not end up in internal trouble with team/ownership?" That is still a hurdle to clear, but an easier one.
thanks, I can see internal motivation driving bids does make sense, but it would seem the larger the bidding pool the less it matters: essentially the ‘implied’ Reserve for the auction.

It also explains why Morey has maintained a borderline ridiculous position they really do want him.
 

Senator Donut

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Wow, the guy LeBron met at the airport is not the brilliant negotiator Simmons thought him to be?
 

EvilEmpire

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I'm entertained.

Edit: Of course he could come back and do just enough to get paid but be unavailable to play based on some lingering injury that he may or may not have and become a bigger PITA than if he stayed away. But yeah, I'm still entertained.
 

moondog80

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Could this have been avoided by Doc being a little more measured in his post game press conference after being eliminated? Doc's sharp, but that was a huge misstep.
 

ragnarok725

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This feels like a ploy to continue to maintain leverage. Maybe they really patch things up, who knows, but the fans in Philly aren’t going to let it rest, and the first sig of adversity is going to have Doc and Embiid shrugging their shoulders and looking sideways at Ben again. There’s no future here.
 

lexrageorge

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I guess Morey did have more leverage than Tyrese Maxey and his 30% 3 point percentage.

EDIT: The most likely outcome is still a trade sometime after 12/15 or 1/15.
 

BigSoxFan

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I guess Morey did have more leverage than Tyrese Maxey and his 30% 3 point percentage.

EDIT: The most likely outcome is still a trade sometime after 12/15 or 1/15.
Yeah, it’s not like Simmons shows up and the rest of the team is like, “cool, you’re back!”

He’s still getting traded. They’re just trying to quiet down the noise before that happens.
 

nattysez

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This feels like Woj carrying water for the team and agent to help grease the skids on a trade, but I guess anything is possible. Hard to imagine an egotistical 25 year-old tucking his tail between his legs and moving back into the house he just moved out of (if reports are to be believed).
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I'm entertained.

Edit: Of course he could come back and do just enough to get paid but be unavailable to play based on some lingering injury that he may or may not have and become a bigger PITA than if he stayed away. But yeah, I'm still entertained.
I'm entertained too!.

It would be one of the biggest troll jobs of all time if Simmons came back and said he couldn't shoot because he had a shoulder injury that prevented him from lifting his arm over his head. :)
Yeah, it’s not like Simmons shows up and the rest of the team is like, “cool, you’re back!”
And it's not like the PHI fans are going to welcome him back with open arms too. At least not the loud ones.

This feels like Woj carrying water for the team and agent to help grease the skids on a trade, but I guess anything is possible. Hard to imagine an egotistical 25 year-old tucking his tail between his legs and moving back into the house he just moved out of (if reports are to be believed).
Simmons apparently has two residences in the PHI area and listed one for sale: https://www.inquirer.com/sixers/76ers-ben-simmons-home-sale-nba-rumors-20211005.html
 

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I think the best case scenario for both the Sixers and Simmons is if Simmons comes back and practices/plays hard until a deal gets worked out after more players become available. Obviously good for the Sixers with regard to the on court product. But I think being professional about it would be good for Simmons too.
 

Swedgin

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Wow, the guy LeBron met at the airport is not the brilliant negotiator Simmons thought him to be?
Not a Rich Paul defender, but KOC made an excellent point on the latest Mismatch. According to KOC, Shams is very tied into Klutch. If you listen to Shams recent reporting carefully, the implication is that the refusal to come back to the team, was a Simmons being unwilling, not Rich Paul standing in the way.

View: https://twitter.com/shamscharania/status/1446460390167171072
 

Jimbodandy

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Sounds like Paul trying to pin the bad decision to play hardball on Simmons.

Which would be believable if not for the foolish Maxey threat trial balloon.

The last couple of months haven't helped Paul's image. He looks like a shithead. He'll recover. It's nice to watch though.
 

GB5

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As for Doc, that was a CYA postgame statement from him. DOC is a 100% fraud as a coach. He gets credit for winning his Boston title, but lets not act like he won with the little sisters of the poor. He has been at the helm of some of the worst playoff collapses of all time. Multiple 3-1 series leads lost. Never even making a conference finals with those Clippers teams. There wasnt a prognosticator in the world who thought that Atl team had a chance against the Sixers, and then sometime in the middle of game 5 when Doc was beginning to throw up his 3-1 lead and double digit leads in Games 5, and 6 and a home loss in Game 7, the media finally began to catch on, and a few articles started seeping out with historical perspective on Doc's playoff failures. Nobody would write about them because Doc is great on TV and even better with the press. They all love him. I am sure he saw the narrative of his coaching career start to change and as soon as they went belly up in Game 7, he backed up the bus and ran over Simmons repeatedly. Not that Simmons didnt deserve it, but Doc wasnt letting any of the fallout from another meltdown stick to him.
 

benhogan

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the media finally began to catch on, and a few articles started seeping out with historical perspective on Doc's playoff failures. Nobody would write about them because Doc is great on TV and even better with the press. They all love him. I am sure he saw the narrative of his coaching career start to change and as soon as they went belly up in Game 7, he backed up the bus and ran over Simmons repeatedly. Not that Simmons didnt deserve it, but Doc wasnt letting any of the fallout from another meltdown stick to him.
nice work, this had me laughing out loud
 

nighthob

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As for Doc, that was a CYA postgame statement from him. DOC is a 100% fraud as a coach. He gets credit for winning his Boston title, but lets not act like he won with the little sisters of the poor. He has been at the helm of some of the worst playoff collapses of all time. Multiple 3-1 series leads lost. Never even making a conference finals with those Clippers teams. There wasnt a prognosticator in the world who thought that Atl team had a chance against the Sixers, and then sometime in the middle of game 5 when Doc was beginning to throw up his 3-1 lead and double digit leads in Games 5, and 6 and a home loss in Game 7, the media finally began to catch on, and a few articles started seeping out with historical perspective on Doc's playoff failures. Nobody would write about them because Doc is great on TV and even better with the press. They all love him. I am sure he saw the narrative of his coaching career start to change and as soon as they went belly up in Game 7, he backed up the bus and ran over Simmons repeatedly. Not that Simmons didnt deserve it, but Doc wasnt letting any of the fallout from another meltdown stick to him.
The man took a CBA team to a 41-41 record. In the NBA. Cut him some slack for having been cursed in terms of injury luck.
 

Cellar-Door

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My take on this is....

Ben would like to get traded, but also paid.
Morey thinks he has more leverage for trades if Simmons is in camp. Also, some general twitter chatter that people (ie agents) were surprised Morey played hardball on max fines for everything when everyone knows he's working on a trade, not having to fine Simmons probably helps Morey's already not great rep with agents from getting worse.

Probably works out for both sides.

Real question is... will Ben PLAY?
 

Gdiguy

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Exactly, this all stems from the fact that Simmons wants to get paid, and presumably is willing to do just the minimum necessary to make that happen until he is traded.
The other part here is - not only do the 76ers not really actually want him, but also isn't the worst possible outcome (for basically everyone) that Simmons reports, gets injured day 3 of practice, and then the 76ers not only are stuck paying his full contract but also his trade value tanks even more?

To me the Dec thing makes the most sense - the 76ers are willing to wait until Dec to get a better deal, and if Simmons (and his side) believe that that plan is legitimate, he doesn't really gain anything from holding out until then (and loses $ in the meantime). So might as well report if that's the plan
 

Cellar-Door

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If I were Ben, I'd play but I'd minimize risk as much as possible. You know, sit out on the perimeter and just shoot thr....err, nevermind.
Playing Simmons seems crazy, he has no incentive to play hard on defense, and the fans probably boo him every time he touches it. Your home games become truly toxic
 

terrynever

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Ben is currently selling his two Philly homes and bought a $14.5M “farm” in Southern California. I think he’ll play for Philly until the 76ers get a good offer. Ben is a submissive personality on and off the court. He will make up with Embiid. But did he work on his shooting in the offseason or did he fix up his new farm? Probably the latter.
 

BigSoxFan

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Playing Simmons seems crazy, he has no incentive to play hard on defense, and the fans probably boo him every time he touches it. Your home games become truly toxic
All true. It would be a gigantic distraction. But as someone who loves NBA drama, I’m all in favor for that awkward scenario materializing.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Simmons agreeing to show up, do conditioning, and project that he might stay for a couple weeks works for everyone—Simmons gets paid and looks less awful; Morey can pretend they might keep him; drama level goes down at least temporarily

Doing that with an understanding Morey will take best deal on table in early Nov would also make sense - that’s my guess at what is going on here. Toughest part of that is believing Klutch won’t leak it.
 

terrynever

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All true. It would be a gigantic distraction. But as someone who loves NBA drama, I’m all in favor for that awkward scenario materializing.
As The Athletic speculated today, Ben doesn’t have the angry personality to tank his way out of town the way Harden and other stars have done. He’ll do what he can for his teammates, although I doubt we will see him diving on the floor for loose balls, or bellying up big men in the post.
 

slamminsammya

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Ben is currently selling his two Philly homes and bought a $14.5M “farm” in Southern California. I think he’ll play for Philly until the 76ers get a good offer. Ben is a submissive personality on and off the court. He will make up with Embiid. But did he work on his shooting in the offseason or did he fix up his new farm? Probably the latter.
Source?
 

Cellar-Door

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As The Athletic speculated today, Ben doesn’t have the angry personality to tank his way out of town the way Harden and other stars have done. He’ll do what he can for his teammates, although I doubt we will see him diving on the floor for loose balls, or bellying up big men in the post.
Don't know if he's angry, but I watched Simmons at LSU, his effort level there once he realized the team wasn't going anywhere was... pretty awful. In the NBA if he mails it in like that on D he's not very valuable.
 

terrynever

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Don't know if he's angry, but I watched Simmons at LSU, his effort level there once he realized the team wasn't going anywhere was... pretty awful. In the NBA if he mails it in like that on D he's not very valuable.
Definitely bears watching. People thought he took the easy way out by choosing LSU over Kentucky.
 

terrynever

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You're being asked to source the part of the quote that was bolded - i.e.:
The source is me and anyone who follows the 76ers. He chose LSU in college. His court tendency is to pass the ball rather than shoot it. How is this even debatable? He submitted today when he completely changed course in his holdout.

Hell, I’m being kind compared to this hatchet job:

https://www.inquirer.com/sixers/ben-simmons-money-return-philadelphia-76ers-20211011.html
 
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slamminsammya

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The source is me and anyone who follows the 76ers. He chose LSU in college. His court tendency is to pass the ball rather than shoot it. How is this even debatable? He submitted today when he completely changed course in his holdout.

Hell, I’m being kind compared to this hatchet job:

https://www.inquirer.com/sixers/ben-simmons-money-return-philadelphia-76ers-20211011.html
How is your armchair psychologizing of a person based on their college choice and the choice to not lose 8 million dollars debatable? Its one thing to say he is deferential on the court. I thought you had more meat behind the claim he is "submissive" off the court besides what you mention here, which I would have found interesting.
 

terrynever

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How is your armchair psychologizing of a person based on their college choice and the choice to not lose 8 million dollars debatable? Its one thing to say he is deferential on the court. I thought you had more meat behind the claim he is "submissive" off the court besides what you mention here, which I would have found interesting.
Sorry to disappoint you. I’m watching the 76ers now. Just put me on ignore.
 

Cellar-Door

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It would be amazing if Simmons went full Bynum. Just "oh you want me to shoot 3s?. Enjoy this 40 footer!, ooh 38 foot pullup on a 3v1." And just rained bricks on terrible low probability 3s.
"
 

djbayko

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Whatever happens, this should be fun. The coach and best player made it clear they didn't want him last year. It doesn't matter what they say now that they know their only option is to let him back in. The fans will be all over him. I can't wait.
 

EvilEmpire

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Philly fans are going to shower Simmons with love, kindness and understanding. That's who they are. That's what they do.
 
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