Pats Preseason: Catch-All Thread

Status
Not open for further replies.

Captaincoop

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
13,487
Santa Monica, CA
That being said, I think the only way we see Mac this year is if Cam gets hurt or Cam is even worse than last year (I don't think he will be).
Worse than last year? He was fucking terrible. If he's close to as bad as he was in 2020 after having the entire offense rebuilt around him, he'll be on the bench in September. He needs to be like 50% better immediately, at minimum.

Are people forgetting what we watched last year?
 

cournoyer

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 11, 2012
515
Enfield, Connecticut
Worse than last year? He was fucking terrible. If he's close to as bad as he was in 2020 after having the entire offense rebuilt around him, he'll be on the bench in September. He needs to be like 50% better immediately, at minimum.

Are people forgetting what we watched last year?
I mean I agree. He had did have some strong games early on (Miami, Seattle, Buffalo) and who could forget that Week 17 demolishing of the NYJ (I kid). My overarching point is that I think he will be considerably better this year.
 

Captaincoop

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
13,487
Santa Monica, CA
I mean I agree. He had did have some strong games early on (Miami, Seattle, Buffalo) and who could forget that Week 17 demolishing of the NYJ (I kid). My overarching point is that I think he will be considerably better this year.
I do think he's going to get way more than a fair chance to retain the job, but there are also already signs that he hasn't fixed the mechanical issues and slow decision-making. If Mac looks sharp all the way through camp and keeps improving, he's going to make it really difficult for Bill to stick with a Cam that looks anything like he did last year.

I'm sure they'd love to have a solid veteran option instead of a rookie, but they just don't right now. They have a really bad veteran, and a better alternative than Stidham/Hoyer last year. That feels like a recipe for a change at some point.
 

cournoyer

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 11, 2012
515
Enfield, Connecticut
This is probably where we start to agree to disagree - I take nothing from the early pre-pad training camps. We're still a month from the season starting and any opinion Bedard or any of those guys have has minimal effect on what I think. I like hearing what they say, but I don't actually take it too seriously. Even preseason games are a shaky way of determining true regular season worth. If Cam is healthy there's no way he's not the week 1 starter. The fact I've seen otherwise on here has me shaking my head.

Again, I hope Mac is great. The fact that he doesn't seem lost out there is a good sign. That being said, I'm ready to roll with Cam until we actually see him struggle in-game like he did at points last year, and then we can have the discussion of when it's appropriate to make the switch. Mac looking solid in camp isn't going to lose Cam his job unless we get to that point.
 

JokersWildJIMED

Blinded by Borges
SoSH Member
Oct 7, 2004
2,742
After seeing the interview with Jim Miller, I am legitimately wondering when, during the course of the dynasty, BB has given the benefit of the doubt to another player, such as he has given to Cam, after such a god awful performance over the course of an entire previous season. Historically the NEP have had an extremely short rope and everyone on the team has understood that nothing was a given, certainly not a starting job...that was a huge part of the "Patriot Way". Consistently backing Newton last season after the way he played in game after game (especially in the last 2/3 of the season) went 100% against that philosophy, and essentially naming Newton the starter going into the following season is not the Patriot Way. It would be akin to BB lauding and continuing to start Ochocinco in every game in 2011, and then naming him the starter going into 2012. Its nuts.
 

Eddie Jurak

canderson-lite
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
44,478
Melrose, MA
I feel like you're being a little obtuse here.

Of course I'm not implying BB exclusively built a $200m roster around a shaky QB with a noodle arm who may be on his last legs.

What I am saying is that he got flexible pieces in the offseason that have the ability to enhance Cams strengths. Yes, they can still run routes, catch passes, and make blocks for other QBs. But they essentially built a power offense that focuses on running and tight ends.
I guess I just see this as less of a commitment to Newton and more of an acknowledgement of the status quo. And I think it just so happens that a lot of things one would want for Newton (power offense with running game and TEs) are also things that the team has relied on before (early Brady years, Gronk/murderer, Gronk/Bennett, LGB, etc) and things one would want in place for a rookie QB.

I think Cam is an incumbent starting QB whose job security is… not great. And I don’t think anything about the BB’s free agency spree contradicts that.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
24,386
It's perfectly fine for Cam to be first in line for the starting role. I do think he will be better this year than last year, for several reasons. First, it's almost impossible for him to be worse. Second, he faces what should be, on paper, an easier schedule. Third, he has a year in the system and a whole legit training camp and offseason. Fourth, he's not dealing with Covid. And fifth, he has a lot more talent around him on offense.

This team shouldn't need him to be THAT much better in order to improve a couple of games from last year's 9-7 record.

But I still think Mac Jones will push him because he throws a much better ball and seems to be a much faster processor, even as a rookie.
 

simplyeric

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 14, 2006
14,037
Richmond, VA
Slightly different? Sure. But a 'slight' difference is very different from building a team for one specific guy.
that’s fair. I mean, it’s hard to improve every aspect of the roster and have it only benefit one specific QB. But as others have noted, it’s not like BB stocked up on timing route guys or what have you. He didn’t have McCorkle when he started making love, so he made moves based on the guy he had. And he made good moves. He didn’t try to turn Cam into a classic qb. He made moves to play to Cam’s strengths, and I think it will work.

I think Cam has the potential to have a pretty good season, team-wise. As I’ve said before: he basically needs to out-perform final-year Peyton Manning corpse in Denver. That’s sortof the kind of team BB is building.
After seeing the interview with Jim Miller, I am legitimately wondering when, during the course of the dynasty, BB has given the benefit of the doubt to another player, such as he has given to Cam, after such a god awful performance over the course of an entire previous season. Historically the NEP have had an extremely short rope and everyone on the team has understood that nothing was a given, certainly not a starting job...that was a huge part of the "Patriot Way". Consistently backing Newton last season after the way he played in game after game (especially in the last 2/3 of the season) went 100% against that philosophy, and essentially naming Newton the starter going into the following season is not the Patriot Way. It would be akin to BB lauding and continuing to start Ochocinco in every game in 2011, and then naming him the starter going into 2012. Its nuts.
He plays who he has. Remember when Reche Caldwell was a central cog in our offense? He also sees more from Cam than we do, in terms of practice and understanding the playbook.
I also think that BB did not consider last season to be a ‘normal’ season. 1st season in our offense. Almost no pre-season prep. All sorts of weird behavior issues due to Covid. Cam had The C mid-season. Lots of speed bumps, and maybe BB has been looking down the middle distance all this time, seeing that cam has more to offer than what we saw.
don’t get me wrong. If Cam shits himself we’ll probably see McCorkle at some point, likely if/when Cam gets dinged and has to sit out a game. Then its McCorkle’s chance to keep the starting position.
 

4 6 3 DP

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 24, 2001
2,370
I just can't imagine if cam is healthy that anyone but him is starting week 4.

I have assumed Jones gets the starting job after the Tampa game if qb play is a problem but just can't imagine Bill sending him into that buzzsaw.
 

Super Nomario

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 5, 2000
14,012
Mansfield MA
Again, do deep threats help every QB? Duh. So does well rounded receivers like Corey Davis. But what did BB aggressively target extremely early in the offseason? Bulking up the line (Trent Brown). Tight ends. Very specific WR types. Built "exclusively" for Newton? Of course not. But Newtons strengths certainly align with the roster construction.
Yeah, I don't think they built the team for Cam, but it is a good fit. We saw even last year how Cam can help the run game, and they're pretty clearly still going to pound the rock a ton. And Cam had his best seasons in Carolina with a TE as his primary target.

After seeing the interview with Jim Miller, I am legitimately wondering when, during the course of the dynasty, BB has given the benefit of the doubt to another player, such as he has given to Cam, after such a god awful performance over the course of an entire previous season. Historically the NEP have had an extremely short rope and everyone on the team has understood that nothing was a given, certainly not a starting job...that was a huge part of the "Patriot Way". Consistently backing Newton last season after the way he played in game after game (especially in the last 2/3 of the season) went 100% against that philosophy, and essentially naming Newton the starter going into the following season is not the Patriot Way. It would be akin to BB lauding and continuing to start Ochocinco in every game in 2011, and then naming him the starter going into 2012. Its nuts.
N'Keal Harry was trash as a rookie and they handed him a starting job last year (with predictable results). They also handed Ryan Izzo an everydown role and they didn't even invest any draft capital in him. You can't always address every issue in the offseason, and QB is especially tough / costly to improve on.
 

Jimbodandy

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
11,406
around the way
I think Cam is an incumbent starting QB whose job security is… not great. And I don’t think anything about the BB’s free agency spree contradicts that.
It doesn't. It doesn't imply that Cam is the starter. It doesn't imply that Mac is the starter. It implies that both sides of the ball needed serious shoring up. Perhaps Dr. Suess ryhmes or limerick form would be a more effective way of delivering this message.
 

Captaincoop

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
13,487
Santa Monica, CA
Bill Bill.
Fill Fill.
Bill sees Holes.
Bill Fills Holes.
See Bill Fill Holes.

Can't Can
Cam Can't
Mac Can
See Bill Can Cam

Can't get Stops.
Bill Shops For More Stops.

Pats O is a Bore
New Pats, Can Score

Pats in Hats.
New Pats in New Hats.
 

Shelterdog

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Feb 19, 2002
15,375
New York City
Worse than last year? He was fucking terrible. If he's close to as bad as he was in 2020 after having the entire offense rebuilt around him, he'll be on the bench in September. He needs to be like 50% better immediately, at minimum.

Are people forgetting what we watched last year?
I think we just understand what we wastched last year differently from how you undrestand it. We saw a fair Qb who sometimes struggles with accuracy particularly on short throws but has some real value running the ball and we saw him struggle with a bad team. I don't think he was good, certainly not, but "kind of below average when you throw in the running," not "fucking terrible."

If you view him as kind of shitty rather than hyperbolically bad, then everyting BB is doing make sense. Sign to a short contract? Check. Get someone who can be a long term replacement hopefully? Check--used a first round pick. Try to QB proof a team with defense and a running game (and get receivers who are nice big targets for someone who won't exactly be running the greatest show on turf playbook)? Check.
 

Captaincoop

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
13,487
Santa Monica, CA
I think we just understand what we wastched last year differently from how you undrestand it. We saw a fair Qb who sometimes struggles with accuracy particularly on short throws but has some real value running the ball and we saw him struggle with a bad team. I don't think he was good, certainly not, but "kind of below average when you throw in the running," not "fucking terrible."

If you view him as kind of shitty rather than hyperbolically bad, then everyting BB is doing make sense. Sign to a short contract? Check. Get someone who can be a long term replacement hopefully? Check--used a first round pick. Try to QB proof a team with defense and a running game (and get receivers who are nice big targets for someone who won't exactly be running the greatest show on turf playbook)? Check.
And right on cue, apparent he had a very sharp day of practice today.
 

Shelterdog

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Feb 19, 2002
15,375
New York City
And right on cue, apparent he had a very sharp day of practice today.
Doing what i do -- reflexicely saying "BB is making a smart choice" -- is ususally a pretty good approach to analyzing football. As frustrating as it was to watch Cam throw six yard passes into the dirt, BB isn't bringing a hopeless QB back.
 
Apr 24, 2019
1,278
I would just add that he brought Cam back DIRT CHEAP. It's essentially back-up money. That figures into this recipe of WHAT IT ALL MEANS, as well.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

posts way less than 18% useful shit
SoSH Member
Nov 17, 2010
14,429
Bill Bill.
Fill Fill.
Bill sees Holes.
Bill Fills Holes.
See Bill Fill Holes.

Can't Can
Cam Can't
Mac Can
See Bill Can Cam

Can't get Stops.
Bill Shops For More Stops.

Pats O is a Bore
New Pats, Can Score

Pats in Hats.
New Pats in New Hats.
This made me love SoSH a little more and you a lot more. What are you doing later?

Again, I'll fully admit that I'd prefer Mac. Theres significantly less hoops you need to jump through in order to build an offense around a guy who can read the field, make his progressions, and throw accurately. That's obvious. But I'm kind of on board to see what Cam can do for the first half of the season.

Think about how excited we were with how the offense performed the first few weeks of the season. It was fun to watch, and we assumed the team would gel and grow as they found their new offensive identity. It didnt happen for many reasons. But with the influx of talent, I think the same offensive philosophy has the potential to show us an amplified version of that offense we saw the first few weeks. The amount of flexible talent at key positions in this scheme should really lend itself to fast decisions on first options for Cam.

Edit: boring, deleted
 

rodderick

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 24, 2009
12,751
Belo Horizonte - Brazil
I think we just understand what we wastched last year differently from how you undrestand it. We saw a fair Qb who sometimes struggles with accuracy particularly on short throws but has some real value running the ball and we saw him struggle with a bad team. I don't think he was good, certainly not, but "kind of below average when you throw in the running," not "fucking terrible."

If you view him as kind of shitty rather than hyperbolically bad, then everyting BB is doing make sense. Sign to a short contract? Check. Get someone who can be a long term replacement hopefully? Check--used a first round pick. Try to QB proof a team with defense and a running game (and get receivers who are nice big targets for someone who won't exactly be running the greatest show on turf playbook)? Check.
I mean, QBR takes running value into account and Cam ranked 30th out of 33 QBs by that metric. He was really, really bad and while there were indeed extenuating circumstances (COVID, limited offseason, lack of weapons around him) that lead me to believe he can improve significantly this year, let's not downplay how poorly he performed in 2020.
 

simplyeric

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 14, 2006
14,037
Richmond, VA
I mean, QBR takes running value into account and Cam ranked 30th out of 33 QBs by that metric. He was really, really bad and while there were indeed extenuating circumstances (COVID, limited offseason, lack of weapons around him) that lead me to believe he can improve significantly this year, let's not downplay how poorly he performed in 2020.
Not that rhis would prove much, but what did that stat show for his first 3-4 games? He showed some potential last year, then it all went to shit. Even if we got nothing better than early-season-2020 Cam, that would be an improvement, no?
 

rodderick

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 24, 2009
12,751
Belo Horizonte - Brazil
Not that rhis would prove much, but what did that stat show for his first 3-4 games? He showed some potential last year, then it all went to shit. Even if we got nothing better than early-season-2020 Cam, that would be an improvement, no?
It would be an improvement, sure. I just don't think he is capable of running a consistently good passing offense. Now maybe the Pats can win a ton of games by running the ball, getting a key throw here and there and playing tough defense, I don't discard that possibility because the roster is actually really talented.
 

Jimbodandy

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
11,406
around the way
It would be an improvement, sure. I just don't think he is capable of running a consistently good passing offense. Now maybe the Pats can win a ton of games by running the ball, getting a key throw here and there and playing tough defense, I don't discard that possibility because the roster is actually really talented.
Serious question for you and the other vehemently anti-Cam posters here: do we think that Belichick is trying to lose, or do we think that he forgot how to coach football?

I'll hang up and listen.
 

rodderick

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 24, 2009
12,751
Belo Horizonte - Brazil
Serious question for you and the other vehemently anti-Cam posters here: do we think that Belichick is trying to lose, or do we think that he forgot how to coach football?

I'll hang up and listen.
Why even have BbtL if we can't offer up an opinion on a player that by any available metric had a terrible season in 2020 just because Bill thinks he can play? If the default is "Bill did it and he's great and knows better than you, so there" let's just do away with the board. Cam sucked last year, there are a lot of reasons to believe he can improve in 2021, but seeing as he's not dynamic in the running game anymore (more of a power back) and has never really been an elite passer even when healthy, I think there's a ceiling on what he can provide as QB of the Patriots. Is that an unreasonable opinion? I have nothing against Cam, I just won't be brainwashed into thinking he was actually okay last year.
 

simplyeric

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 14, 2006
14,037
Richmond, VA
Serious question for you and the other vehemently anti-Cam posters here: do we think that Belichick is trying to lose, or do we think that he forgot how to coach football?

I'll hang up and listen.
I’m pro-Cam, but this seems like the wrong approach to this discussion.
No one questions that BB is trying to win games, win the season, win the trophy if he can.

what people are questioning is:

Are his decisions correct?

And even before that: is what he is saying now really informative on what his decisions will be when the games actually start?

And separately: assuming certain decisions (e.g. Cam starts the season), what might play out down the road, and why?

BB is a genius. He’s not infallible. No one is questioning his motives or goals. We’re just wondering how it will play out.
 

Captaincoop

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
13,487
Santa Monica, CA
Serious question for you and the other vehemently anti-Cam posters here: do we think that Belichick is trying to lose, or do we think that he forgot how to coach football?

I'll hang up and listen.
How about:

1) He wants to win;
2) He knows how to win;
3) A pandemic hit last year at exactly the moment he lost his 20-year, MVP quarterback, and screwed his chances of putting together a real offense last year, and;
4) He's taking this preseason to decide whether the 1st round QB he drafted can be counted on before moving on from his subpar veteran option (or alternatively, whether the subpar veteran option has improved)
 

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
18,100
Cam was here in 2020 because the Pats were in a really tough spot capwise and so there were no good alternatives available. And it was obvious to all that Belichick trusted Newton more than he trusted either Hoyer or Stidham to run the offense.

I do think going into this year, Belichick took into account all of the issues from last year that have been well documented: lack of training camp, limited practice time, serious holes in the roster, and a bout of CoVid that may have been more serious than what the team or Newton revealed. It's also telling that Newton was signed to a one year, incentive-laden contract, and the Pats drafted a QB in the first round.

Newton will probably be better than the #30th ranked QB in 2021. However, I don't think Bill or anyone else sees him as the probable long term answer. I do think he thinks the roster is much improved (I completely fail to see the Volin-like arguments that it's not), and so Bill is not opposed to running it back w/ Cam after a much more normal offseason and training camp, while giving Mac time to actually learn the nuances of NFL offenses and defenses.

Cam is the starter now, and will almost certainly be the Week 1 starter. And after that, it will take two things to change the situation, barring injury: (a) Cam is so bad that the team is losing games that they could have won with a league average QB; and (b) Mac Jones shows enough in practice that he is able to take the field and improve the situation. Remember that the Patriots do not believe in the concept of "game day player", and that will never change, nor should it, so (b) will be important if we don't want to see Brian Hoyer take the starter's snaps.
 

johnmd20

mad dog
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 30, 2003
61,996
New York City
Why even have BbtL if we can't offer up an opinion on a player that by any available metric had a terrible season in 2020 just because Bill thinks he can play? If the default is "Bill did it and he's great and knows better than you, so there" let's just do away with the board. Cam sucked last year, there are a lot of reasons to believe he can improve in 2021, but seeing as he's not dynamic in the running game anymore (more of a power back) and has never really been an elite passer even when healthy, I think there's a ceiling on what he can provide as QB of the Patriots. Is that an unreasonable opinion? I have nothing against Cam, I just won't be brainwashed into thinking he was actually okay last year.
I think this is fair but I also think using QBR is not the best way to analyze QBs. The problem with Cam is his arm. Last year, this was exacerbated by a team without enough skill. Now they have skill. I'm interested in seeing what Cam and BB and Josh can do with that.

I actually want Cam this year. As long as he can throw. But he certainly did NOT pass the eye test last year with scores of passes. And if Cam doesn't work out, bring on the Mac.
 

Jimbodandy

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
11,406
around the way
Why even have BbtL if we can't offer up an opinion on a player that by any available metric had a terrible season in 2020 just because Bill thinks he can play? If the default is "Bill did it and he's great and knows better than you, so there" let's just do away with the board. Cam sucked last year, there are a lot of reasons to believe he can improve in 2021, but seeing as he's not dynamic in the running game anymore (more of a power back) and has never really been an elite passer even when healthy, I think there's a ceiling on what he can provide as QB of the Patriots. Is that an unreasonable opinion? I have nothing against Cam, I just won't be brainwashed into thinking he was actually okay last year.
Lex and john had some great points there.

I wasn't implying that you shouldn't share an opinion. It just begs the question "then why is Bill rolling him out there?". Is that unfair of me to ask you that? If so, why even have a forum?

Last year, one could say "Bill doesn't have any cap space and wants to roll the dice on an experienced guy who maybe has upside and at least can run the ball since we have no fucking pass catchers." That would be a legitimate answer to "why is Cam here?"

This year we have legit pass catchers and had offseason money to spend up the wazoo, and Bill is still rolling with him. Must be a reason. My guess is that he thinks that Cam is his best chance to win games, at least for the short term. You obviously disagree. So why do you think that he's doing it? Has he lost it? Is he tanking? Seems like fair questions...
 

Captaincoop

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
13,487
Santa Monica, CA
Lex and john had some great points there.

I wasn't implying that you shouldn't share an opinion. It just begs the question "then why is Bill rolling him out there?". Is that unfair of me to ask you that? If so, why even have a forum?

Last year, one could say "Bill doesn't have any cap space and wants to roll the dice on an experienced guy who maybe has upside and at least can run the ball since we have no fucking pass catchers." That would be a legitimate answer to "why is Cam here?"

This year we have legit pass catchers and had offseason money to spend up the wazoo, and Bill is still rolling with him. Must be a reason. My guess is that he thinks that Cam is his best chance to win games, at least for the short term. You obviously disagree. So why do you think that he's doing it? Has he lost it? Is he tanking? Seems like fair questions...
Bill drafted a quarterback in the first round, presumably to be the starter in the near future. What other options were out there beyond that for what they paid Newton to come back?

It seems odd to interpret Bill drafting a QB early and paying Cam like a backup QB as some kind of ironclad vote of confidence moving forward.
 

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
18,100
Bill drafted a quarterback in the first round, presumably to be the starter in the near future. What other options were out there beyond that for what they paid Newton to come back?

It seems odd to interpret Bill drafting a QB early and paying Cam like a backup QB as some kind of ironclad vote of confidence moving forward.
This is an important point. The oodles of cap space was used to shore up the other spots on the roster, all of which needed shoring up ( the defense wasn't that good last season either). Some of that was Bill's own doing; the Pats had several years of unproductive drafts that led up to the current situation.

I never saw Belichick trading for Jared Goff, Matt Stafford, Jimmy G, or Carson Wentz. Given those options, Cam back on a short, incentive-laden deal to tutor a promising rookie is not the worst use of resources.
 

rodderick

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 24, 2009
12,751
Belo Horizonte - Brazil
Lex and john had some great points there.

I wasn't implying that you shouldn't share an opinion. It just begs the question "then why is Bill rolling him out there?". Is that unfair of me to ask you that? If so, why even have a forum?

Last year, one could say "Bill doesn't have any cap space and wants to roll the dice on an experienced guy who maybe has upside and at least can run the ball since we have no fucking pass catchers." That would be a legitimate answer to "why is Cam here?"

This year we have legit pass catchers and had offseason money to spend up the wazoo, and Bill is still rolling with him. Must be a reason. My guess is that he thinks that Cam is his best chance to win games, at least for the short term. You obviously disagree. So why do you think that he's doing it? Has he lost it? Is he tanking? Seems like fair questions...
Bill is rolling him out there because he came cheap, has experience in the system, is a great guy/teammate and can probably give you a reasonable baseline of performance in a run-oriented offense with a great OL and TE group. My personal preference would be to give someone else a shot because based on what I watched last year I don't think Cam is the type of QB that can run the "Patriots offense", but I get why he'd bring him back.

I'm not saying Cam is a complete bum that can't do anything. My argument is he had a really bad 2020 and I don't think the guy I just watched for 15 games look like he was throwing a medicine ball is going to be able to lead a consistent passing offense even with the improved weapons. I think he'll get you 3rd and 2s with his legs to keep drives alive and I trust him not to make a lot mistakes with the ball, I also have zero faith in him with the game on the line and think he won't pull out wins when they fall behind. Considering the talent level of the roster, that probably will be good enough for a wildcard spot, and that's fine, I just think Cam's the main factor in putting a ceiling in what this team can achieve.

I think this is fair but I also think using QBR is not the best way to analyze QBs. The problem with Cam is his arm. Last year, this was exacerbated by a team without enough skill. Now they have skill. I'm interested in seeing what Cam and BB and Josh can do with that.

I actually want Cam this year. As long as he can throw. But he certainly did NOT pass the eye test last year with scores of passes. And if Cam doesn't work out, bring on the Mac.
I mean, I only used QBR because that has an embedded rushing component to evaluate QB play, but it's not like he fared much better by ANY/A (27th), DYAR (31st), DVOA (31st), EPA/Play (25th), CPOE (25th), PFF grade (27th). You get the gist. I'm once again not saying that's all he can provide, I acknowledge 2020 was an atypical season in a number of ways and I do expect improvement, just not enough that he still won't likely be the weak link.
 
Last edited:

Super Nomario

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 5, 2000
14,012
Mansfield MA
I mean, I only used QBR because that has an embedded rushing component to evaluate QB play, but it's not like he fared much better by ANY/A (27th), DYAR (31st), DVOA (31st), EPA/Play (25th), CPOE (25th), PFF grade (27th). You get the gist. I'm once again not saying that's all he can provide, I acknowledge 2020 was an atypical season in a number of ways and I do expect improvement, just not enough that he still won't likely be the weak link.
IMO he wasn't the weak link last year - it really can't be overstated how bad his receivers (including tight ends) were. Brady, arguably throwing to a better group in 2019 (with Edelman healthy) slipped from 6th-10th in most stats to 15th-20th. Unsurprisingly, he bounced back last year with a better group of receivers. What kind of numbers does a league average QB put up throwing to Izzo, Byrd, Harry et al? I'm thinking it's not far off from the 25th-30th range Cam was in.

The 2020 offense actually averaged more yards per drive (33.1) and nearly as many points per drive (1.92) as the 2019 edition (29.8 and 1.97, respectively). The decay in the offensive supporting cast is a multi-year problem, not a Cam issue. Could Newton be the weak link in 2021? Sure.
 

rodderick

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 24, 2009
12,751
Belo Horizonte - Brazil
IMO he wasn't the weak link last year - it really can't be overstated how bad his receivers (including tight ends) were. Brady, arguably throwing to a better group in 2019 (with Edelman healthy) slipped from 6th-10th in most stats to 15th-20th. Unsurprisingly, he bounced back last year with a better group of receivers. What kind of numbers does a league average QB put up throwing to Izzo, Byrd, Harry et al? I'm thinking it's not far off from the 25th-30th range Cam was in.

The 2020 offense actually averaged more yards per drive (33.1) and nearly as many points per drive (1.92) as the 2019 edition (29.8 and 1.97, respectively). The decay in the offensive supporting cast is a multi-year problem, not a Cam issue. Could Newton be the weak link in 2021? Sure.
I think the Brady comparison fails in the sense that the 2019 team had to throw the ball and the 2020 team could run it and didn't rely on Cam's passing nearly as much to score as they did Brady's in the previous season, so the lack of receiving talent was less detrimental to overall offensive performance. Either way, maybe the usage of "still" made my phrasing confusing, but I was just saying I don't think he'll improve enough to not be the weak link in 2021, not that he was the weak link in 2020 (when he played poorly but I'll agree the TE group and receivers were "don't belong in the league" bad). I just think this team is really talented and could contend for an AFCCG with slightly above average QB play. Maybe Cam can provide that, but I don't think he's physically capable of it.

Either way, I'll agree this argument is tired so I'll drop it.
 

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
18,100
I’m so fired up about Barmore. Could be our most exciting rookie DL since Seymour, if things break right.
Of course, he did get hurt near the end of the practice:

View: https://twitter.com/MikeReiss/status/1422664372325920770


But Barmore's status bears watching; he was having his left foot/toe looked at on the sideline late in the session.
View: https://twitter.com/jeffphowe/status/1422586820668366863


Christian Barmore dominated early but didn’t finish practice due to an apparent left foot or ankle injury. He got retaped, put cleats back on and watched the final couple periods. He was limping a bit.
Doesn't sound serious, but I'm sure Bill will provide us with ample information about his injury.
 

Ferm Sheller

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 5, 2007
20,404
Maybe the next Ken Sims? (ducking)
Was thinking about Kenneth Sims recently. He was the #1 pick of course, but was he the consensus #1 pick? I don't remember. And if he was consensus #1 and he was a bust, then it's hard to fault the Pats, but if he was a reach . . .

Also, the funny thing about that draft is that while the took Sims #1 overall of course, and he was a bust, they took Andre Tippett in the second round and he became a HoFer. If you flip-flop those picks, hardly anyone would remember Kenneth Sims and you'd say that the Pats drafted well at #1.
 

Captaincoop

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
13,487
Santa Monica, CA
Somewhere, Ken Sims is confused...

Good thing Barmore is back, according to The Athletic, Pats have a below-average (18th) D. If that's the case, I think scoring in the NFL this year will be *really* hard.
They certainly don't have the 18th most talented defense - they're way better than that. Now, they have to put all the pieces together, but there's no one I trust more to do that on the defensive side of the ball than one William Belichick.
 

mwonow

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 4, 2005
7,095
Bill Bill.
Fill Fill.
Bill sees Holes.
Bill Fills Holes.
See Bill Fill Holes.

Can't Can
Cam Can't
Mac Can
See Bill Can Cam

Can't get Stops.
Bill Shops For More Stops.

Pats O is a Bore
New Pats, Can Score

Pats in Hats.
New Pats in New Hats.
Hey Captain, Bentley's auditioning to be your sidekick. Quoted after his second INT as saying: "See ball, get ball. Ball in the air, make a play on it'"

You'll need to coach him up on meter...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.