Cade to Black: 2021 NBA Draft Thread

OK, thoughts on Scottie Lewis so far...

The good. He is insanely athletic. He's so quick laterally that he could guard evening lightning bug guards with ease. Has fantastic end to end speed and really elevates (you see this especially with his ability to block shots of guys 4"-8" taller). He attacks closeouts effectively and has enough moves in the paint to be an effective finisher (his athleticism really helps). He finishes strong when he has a mind to. His athleticism allows him to put big men on a poster.

He competes relentlessly on the defensive end. He attacks shooters with reckless abandon and gets a decent number of chase-down blocks. He can guard 1-3 without a thought and if he could put on another stone or so (and he looks like he has the frame to do that) he can probably even probably make a credible show against 4s and 5s. Not huntable.

The bad/ugly. The shot. He's a truly bad spot up shooter. Bad footwork (leading to the hitch), too much wasted motion on the shooting arm, waaaay too much guide hand action. You see the same ugliness in his free throw shots. The weird part is when you watch him shoot pull ups you see little to none of this. His pull shots start well with everything in synch, very little wasted motion in the shot itself, sufficient quickness on the release, and a really nice arc. Maybe he doubts his shot when he has time to think about it? There's a plausible reason to believe that the issues are fixable. But now? He's Herb Jones bad.

Too many floaters. He gets away with that now because he's shooting over everyones heads. He won't get the same leeway in the NBA. He can get careless with the ball on the dribble. His future in the NBA is as a combo guard, he needs to tighten his handle and improve his awareness. He's good with the safe passes, but I've seen a few instances so far of him missing open guys in the paint to make easier perimeter passes.

Overall? I think he's an excellent candidate for a two way deal and an instance of a second round talent with major upside. At the very least he's a candidate to be a high end defensive roleplayer.

8 potential deals for No. 1 pick in the draft? - The Athletic

This one caught my eye:

Oklahoma City Thunder
Offer: Thunder trade pick No. 6 in the 2021 NBA Draft and Shai Gilgeous-Alexander to the Pistons for the No. 1 pick

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Am I the only one who thinks this is a little crazy? Is Cade really that good? SGA and the #6 pick?

Honestly I’d want more as #6 carries a whole lot more risk. Plus it’s unrealistic as if you’re Presti you want to add Cade to SGA, not swap them out.

nighthob said:

Honestly I’d want more as #6 carries a whole lot more risk. Plus it’s unrealistic as if you’re Presti you want to add Cade to SGA, not swap them out.

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Hmmmmm. SGA is good, but I'm not sure he'll ever be "best player on a title team" good. If Presti thinks Cunningham can be, it'd be ballsy but I could see it. Of course, we have NFI if that is actually the case.

Royal Reader said:

Hmmmmm. SGA is good, but I'm not sure he'll ever be "best player on a title team" good. If Presti thinks Cunningham can be, it'd be ballsy but I could see it. Of course, we have NFI if that is actually the case.

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I agree with you that SGA is a second banana, but that’s why I don’t think the deal is at all realistic. The likely best player left on the board at #6 is Jonathan Kuminga, who I think is a third banana type. This isn’t football, the #1 guy is a lot more important than a #2 and a #3. If I’m the Pistons I want a massive draft haul for #1. As in #6 and all the premium picks.

nighthob said:

I agree with you that SGA is a second banana, but that’s why I don’t think the deal is at all realistic. The likely best player left on the board at #6 is Jonathan Kuminga, who I think is a third banana type. This isn’t football, the #1 guy is a lot more important than a #2 and a #3. If I’m the Pistons I want a massive draft haul for #1. As in #6 and all the premium picks.

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Do you view Cade as having a good enough chance to be a #1 that merits giving up a #2 like SGA? Is he more can’t miss than Zion was? I didn’t watch a lot of college ball this year.

Cade isn’t physically dominant the way Zion was, he’s more like a 6’7” Marcus Smart with a ++ offensive game. Two way wings are the currency of the modern NBA and Cunningham has the added advantage of being able to QB the offense from the wing. He’s a great piece to build a team around.

I think the key factoid that the casual fan might miss here is that there is a general consensus that there's five guys then a massive dropoff in this year's draft. So in many ways, the sixth position is precisely where no one wants to be - which is why I think it's not out of the realms of possibility that someone - and particularly OKC - will try something bold to move up, and I guess why Nighthob thinks there's not likely to be takers for that.

ehaz said:

8 potential deals for No. 1 pick in the draft? - The Athletic

This one caught my eye:



Am I the only one who thinks this is a little crazy? Is Cade really that good? SGA and the #6 pick?

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Yes he really is that good. I can’t imagine the Pistons making that deal as stated without grabbing a couple more 1st rounders.

Edit: I see nighthob is already all over this.

There are some questions about Cunningham's athleticism. He can't blow by guys 1 on 1 like some of the elite NBA ballhandlers. He's not a Zion or Luka elite talent.

That said, there are plenty of elite NBA players without elite athleticism/speed who need screens to get by guys or create shooting space with height/release point. (Tatum, for example.)

So what does a failure look like? Cunningham continues to turn the ball over a ton. His lack of athleticism impacts his ability to create good shots for himself. His NBA 3 point shot ends up being only average. His passing ability, while impressive for college, stagnates. His defense only translates to about average, his off ball defense never progressing and his on ball defense limited by his lack of speed. And that's pretty much everything -- barring catastrophic injury -- going wrong. That package is still -- at worst -- a starting caliber wing in the NBA. That's a pretty high floor.

SteveF said:

There are some questions about Cunningham's athleticism. He can't blow by guys 1 on 1 like some of the elite NBA ballhandlers. He's not a Zion or Luka elite talent.

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There were questions about Luka's athleticism. He isn't a great athlete. Do you mean you need to be Luka level to get away with that?

slamminsammya said:

There were questions about Luka's athleticism. He isn't a great athlete. Do you mean you need to be Luka level to get away with that?

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Not necessarily. But... Luka was a better passer, had better vision, and was a better finisher at/near the rim and was doing it against much stronger competition at an earlier age. Cunningham seems to be a better defender, and has a chance to be a better spot up shooter. So you can play Cunningham off ball without losing a ton of value.

Royal Reader said:

I think the key factoid that the casual fan might miss here is that there is a general consensus that there's five guys then a massive dropoff in this year's draft. So in many ways, the sixth position is precisely where no one wants to be - which is why I think it's not out of the realms of possibility that someone - and particularly OKC - will try something bold to move up, and I guess why Nighthob thinks there's not likely to be takers for that.

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You hear “five player draft” bandied about, but I think it’s an mostly an uncorrected echo chamber effect from several months ago when scouts were higher on Jonathan Kuminga and lower on guys like Scottie Barnes, Davion Mitchell, and James Bouknight. if you look at the current mocks and big boards, the only real consensus is the top four, with a wide range of opinions thereafter.

Jeremy Woo at SI has Barnes at #5.

Kyle Boone at CBS/NBA has Bouknight at #5.

Mike DeCourcy at the Sporting News has Mitchell at #5.

Jay Bilas on draft lotto night also had Mitchell at #5. (Personally, I don’t even want Mitchell at #14, but what do I know).

This one — not a big board so much as an assessment of which players are “the most likely to have the best NBA career” — has Barnes at #3 and Kuminga down at #13.

nighthob said:

Honestly I’d want more as #6 carries a whole lot more risk. Plus it’s unrealistic as if you’re Presti you want to add Cade to SGA, not swap them out.

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SGA is going to max in a couple years right? Will he have a ton of excess value on a max?

Not that he's a bad piece to have, but I think you want more to go from #1 to #6 in this particular draft.

Having said that, I am not sold on Cade as automatically head and shoulders above the rest of the top 3-4. I think it makes some sense to shop the pick, but OKC would be much better off if they had #3 or #4 to offer I think.

radsoxfan said:

SGA is going to max in a couple years right? Will he have a ton of excess value on a max?

Not that he's a bad piece to have, but I think you want more to go from #1 to #6 in this particular draft.

Having said that, I am not sold on Cade as automatically head and shoulders above the rest of the top 3-4. I think it makes some sense to shop the pick, but OKC would be much better off if they had #3 or #4 to offer I think.

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The thing I love about Cade is that he is such a complete player AND a competitor which should bode well in him reaching his ceiling. He’s won games with his defense simply by picking up his intensity to create steals which leads me to believe that he can develop further gears.

Edit: covered earlier by Kliq

radsoxfan said:

SGA is going to max in a couple years right? Will he have a ton of excess value on a max?

Not that he's a bad piece to have, but I think you want more to go from #1 to #6 in this particular draft.

Having said that, I am not sold on Cade as automatically head and shoulders above the rest of the top 3-4. I think it makes some sense to shop the pick, but OKC would be much better off if they had #3 or #4 to offer I think.

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My board probably differs from a lot of NBA Draft Twitter in that I have Scottie Barnes pretty high on mine (#3). Most of NBADT has the top four as Cunningham, Mobley, and the Jalenauts (Green and Suggs). I go Cunningham, Green, Barnes, Suggs, Mobley. Whether or not you see Barnes as belonging with the group of four, at #6 you’re seeing a whole lot more risk.

Could Jalen Johnson become as good as the other Jalenauts? Maybe. Right now I’d list his 1% projection as (healthy) Gordon Hayward. But I’m skeptical that he hits it. Do I like Jonathan Kuminga? Sure. I was a huge Matrix fan back in the day and Kuminga’s 1% projection is Shawn Marion v2.0. That’s a nice get in the mid lottery. But Cunningham’s 1% projection is a more athletic Luka and he’s got the sort of personality that leads me to believe that he’ll bleed every last ounce of ability from himself.

Green’s 1% projection is Kobe. Barnes is, right now, a poor man’s Ben Simmons. His becoming a viable star rests on his ability to rebuild his jumper. But if he can do that you have a really athletic 6’7” player with a +6 wingspan that can QB the offense while guarding 1-4. Suggs’s 1% projection would be Westbrook. So giving up any of those guys for a lottery ticket would require a huge draft haul going the other way.

From OKC’s standpoint having SGA there to play second fiddle to Cunningham is the basis for a contender. Lou Dort is sort of an ideal 3&D guy to pair with them. So you’d want to add Cunningham to what you have, not swap out stars. And if you’re the Pistons a second fiddle and a Powerball ticket isn’t enough value for Cunningham.

HomeRunBaker said:

The thing I love about Cade is that he is such a complete player AND a competitor which should bode well in him reaching his ceiling. He’s won games with his defense simply by picking up his intensity to create steals which leads me to believe that he can develop further gears.

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I will fully admit I'm not a huge college bball guy or any kind of scout. I probably saw 6 partial games from Cade all year, and they must have been the wrong 6.

I was pretty unimpressed (considering the hype), but I'm sure there is a very good chance I'm wrong.

Nevertheless, I like Suggs or Mobley + extra picks/value as much as I like Cade.

I mean if OKC had #4 Detroit would probably gladly trade down for more picks.

radsoxfan said:

I will fully admit I'm not a huge college bball guy or any kind of scout. I probably saw 6 partial games from Cade all year, and they must have been the wrong ones.

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I must have watched the same ones because I never got the sense that this was a clear cut #1 guy.

Kliq said:

Figured this would be a good spot for this. After it was mentioned in the latest BS Podcast by KOC, I caught the excellent USA vs France U-19 World Cup Final that is on ESPN+. What a fun game! France is really good; just a team full of athletes and shooters. The cool thing about this game is that it pitted the possible #1 in the 2022 draft, Chet Holmgren, against the possible #1 pick in the 2023 draft, Victor Wembanyama. I had never seen Wembanyama before and at 17 years old he pretty significantly outplayed Holmgren, finishing with 22 points, 8 rebounds and 8 blocks and swished three pointers. He's somehow lankier than Holmgren, but he is a really interesting prospect everyone should keep their eyes on.

Team USA brought in some Big Baby-like kid in the second-half who just went to work in the post and wins the game with a series of unstoppable post-ups.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZInzf49yPc

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Watched a lot of that game. Victor surprised me. Jaden Ivey had a couple of filthy plays too.

Kliq said:

Figured this would be a good spot for this. After it was mentioned in the latest BS Podcast by KOC, I caught the excellent USA vs France U-19 World Cup Final that is on ESPN+. What a fun game! France is really good; just a team full of athletes and shooters. The cool thing about this game is that it pitted the possible #1 in the 2022 draft, Chet Holmgren, against the possible #1 pick in the 2023 draft, Victor Wembanyama. I had never seen Wembanyama before and at 17 years old he pretty significantly outplayed Holmgren, finishing with 22 points, 8 rebounds and 8 blocks and swished three pointers. He's somehow lankier than Holmgren, but he is a really interesting prospect everyone should keep their eyes on.

Team USA brought in some Big Baby-like kid in the second-half who just went to work in the post and wins the game with a series of unstoppable post-ups.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZInzf49yPc

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This is the first I have heard of him but Holmgren looked like Shawn Bradley out there. Is he actually a possible top pick? I am skeptical Fun highlights by the way thanks for sharing.

radsoxfan said:

I will fully admit I'm not a huge college bball guy or any kind of scout. I probably saw 6 partial games from Cade all year, and they must have been the wrong 6.

I was pretty unimpressed (considering the hype), but I'm sure there is a very good chance I'm wrong.

Nevertheless, I like Suggs or Mobley + extra picks/value as much as I like Cade.

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If they happened to be later in the season I believe he was more or less playing on a bum ankle.

Kliq said:

Yeah, Ivey was strange because he doesn't seem to be getting any real NBA Draft hype after a decent freshman season at Purdue, but he also looked like a more athletic Russell Westbrook in this game.

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That's exactly the comp my son and I thought watching him, albeit one game only. Beastly.

slamminsammya said:

This is the first I have heard of him but Holmgren looked like Shawn Bradley out there. Is he actually a possible top pick? I am skeptical Fun highlights by the way thanks for sharing.

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He's more athletic than you would think and can shoot the three. Will get bullied for a while for sure, but he plays more like a wing than a big. Kristaps type.

That USA U-19 team played with a ton of verve. Refreshing to see, after watching the USA games versus Nigeria and Australia.

Here’s my caption for that highlight package: Let The Big Dog Eat. Kenneth Lofton Jr. (his dad isn’t that Kenny Lofton) was a beast. Jaden Ivey was electric. He’s already has some experience running pro ball, as a fetus in the WNBA as his pregnant mom, Niele Ivey, played her rookie season. She is now the Notre Dame coach. Holmgren didn’t look great, but has a bag. He might want to try a grocery bag, because he is still rail thin.

TripleOT said:

That USA U-19 team played with a ton of verve. Refreshing to see, after watching the USA games versus Nigeria and Australia.

Here’s my caption for that highlight package: Let The Big Dog Eat. Kenneth Lofton Jr. (his dad isn’t that Kenny Lofton) was a beast. Jaden Ivey was electric. He’s already has some experience running pro ball, as a fetus in the WNBA as his pregnant mom, Niele Ivey, played her rookie season. She is now the Notre Dame coach. Holmgren didn’t look great, but has a bag. He might want to try a grocery bag, because he is still rail thin.

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Thanks for the review. We haven't watched this one yet, but I love Kenneth (don't call me Kenny) too after seeing him just once.

slamminsammya said:

This is the first I have heard of him but Holmgren looked like Shawn Bradley out there. Is he actually a possible top pick? I am skeptical Fun highlights by the way thanks for sharing.

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He is a toothpick. Then again, Shawn Bradley went 2nd overall himself.

Thank the Fab 5 for long shorts.

https://theathletic.com/2709776/2021/07/16/2021-nba-draft-two-round-mock-zach-harper-sees-rockets-torn-between-jalens-at-no-2/

The Athletic has Daishen Nix dropping to #45 which would be a good outcome

Daishen Nix should probably be a lot higher just based on his potential, but the Celtics rolling the dice with his feel for the game is a great idea.

Nix or any one of these 5 would be a solid outcome at 45: Grimes, Bassey, McBride, Hyland, Wieskamp

https://theathletic.com/2705480/2021/07/14/second-round-steals-who-could-be-available-for-celtics-at-no-45/

At the moment, these are my five favorite potential second-round steals who could be available when the Celtics pick. To decide who qualified for this list, I counted out any prospect projected as a first-round selection in Sam Vecenie’s latest mock draft. I considered every other player eligible. At least one of these prospects could be considered a stretch for the Celtics based on some draft boards I’ve seen, but the latter stages of the draft can be unpredictable so I wanted to include anyone who might feasibly drop into the mid-second round.

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Herbert Jones
Joel Ayayi
RaiQuan Gray
Quentin Grimes
Austin Reaves

List of who has worked out for which teams: https://hoopshype.com/lists/nba-draft-workouts/
Celtics:

Walker, Pons, Etienne and Champagnie are interesting to me. Seems pretty clear that as of now Brad has no intentions of moving back into the 1R.

Began digging into draft stuff today and am blown away that this talk of a “Big 5” didn’t include Scottie Barnes as I just assumed it would. What am I missing here?

New SB Nation mock today that I think comes closer to my own (admittedly shallow and knee-jerk) personal list than any I’ve seen yet…

https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2021/7/20/22557675/nba-draft-2021-player-rankings-big-board-best-available

#5 Wagner
#6 Moody
#7 Barnes
#8 Johnson

#12 Kuminga
#20 Butler
#21 Mitchell

Main edit I’d make is to flip Wagner for Moody, who’s my top pick for the Ws at #7 with a bullet. Moody was also recently seen dining and chatting it up with Draymond, which I think was mostly a Klutch event, but also makes me suspect he’s the Warriors’ guy. I wouldn’t be too sad if we went Wagner, though, and would be over the moon if we somehow got both Moody and Wagner. (I love Barnes, too, but get the sense he’ll be off the board by #7.)

Zero interest in picking presumed “win now” Davion Mitchell at #7, or in trading the two picks plus Wiseman plus Wiggins plus the Golden Gate Bridge for any of the realistically available Tier 3 vets out there — which seem to be the two default paths most pundits have laid out for us.

Sam Ray Not said:

New SB Nation mock today that I think comes closer to my own (admittedly shallow and knee-jerk) personal list than any I’ve seen yet…

https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2021/7/20/22557675/nba-draft-2021-player-rankings-big-board-best-available

#5 Wagner
#6 Moody
#7 Barnes
#8 Johnson

#12 Kuminga
#20 Butler
#21 Mitchell

Main edit I’d make is to flip Wagner for Moody, who’s my top pick for the Ws at #7 with a bullet. Moody was also recently seen dining and chatting it up with Draymond, which I think was mostly a Klutch event, but also makes me suspect he’s the Warriors’ guy. I wouldn’t be too sad if we went Wagner, though, and would be over the moon if we somehow got both Moody and Wagner. (I love Barnes, too, but get the sense he’ll be off the board by #7.)

Zero interest in picking presumed “win now” Davion Mitchell at #7, or in trading the two picks plus Wiseman plus Wiggins plus the Golden Gate Bridge for any of the realistically available Tier 3 vets out there — which seem to be the two default paths most pundits have laid out for us.

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I’m not sure what world they are living in but I don’t want to live in a world where Frank Wagner is considered a better NBA prospect than Scottie Barnes. I don’t have an “official” list but Wagner would be borderline Top-15 or so off top of my head.......and I still wouldn’t be picking him that high.

HomeRunBaker said:

Began digging into draft stuff today and am blown away that this talk of a “Big 5” didn’t include Scottie Barnes as I just assumed it would. What am I missing here?

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From what I've read/seen/heard, he has some pretty big red flags, notably his inability to shoot and the fact that he's not jump-off-the-tape athletic (though he is large). I think it was the Dunc'd On pod, but they pointed out he only took something like a dozen jumpers off the dribble all year, so while the passing is nice, he may struggle to create his own shot. Of the two projectable non-shooting wings, Kuminga is younger, more explosive, and can guard smaller/quicker guys. Eye of the beholder and whatnot, but I would imagine your ranking of Barnes depends on whether you think he can learn to shoot and/or guard beyond the 4/small 5 because he has limited value if he can't.

ManicCompression said:

From what I've read/seen/heard, he has some pretty big red flags, notably his inability to shoot and the fact that he's not jump-off-the-tape athletic (though he is large). I think it was the Dunc'd On pod, but they pointed out he only took something like a dozen jumpers off the dribble all year, so while the passing is nice, he may struggle to create his own shot. Of the two projectable non-shooting wings, Kuminga is younger, more explosive, and can guard smaller/quicker guys. Eye of the beholder and whatnot, but I would imagine your ranking of Barnes depends on whether you think he can learn to shoot and/or guard beyond the 4/small 5 because he has limited value if he can't.

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Understood. I do place tremendous upside value in poor college shooters especially younger ones with small samples of one season........we can look back at these draft threads over the years and see all the players who “couldn’t shoot” so people downgraded them. It’s the easiest skill to learn along with physically gaining strength on a frame that can support it. I want my draftable players to enter their first camp with the length and athleticism that isn’t an area they can grow. If they possess these two traits then you can work on the teachable skills......that’s always how I have defined upside in a player. Of course age plays a factor as well.

HomeRunBaker said:

Began digging into draft stuff today and am blown away that this talk of a “Big 5” didn’t include Scottie Barnes as I just assumed it would. What am I missing here?

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I just assumed that people had Barnes on that list, he's #3 on my board after Cade and Jalen Green. If he can rebuild that jumper he's a legitimate MVP candidate.

ManicCompression said:

From what I've read/seen/heard, he has some pretty big red flags, notably his inability to shoot and the fact that he's not jump-off-the-tape athletic (though he is large). I think it was the Dunc'd On pod, but they pointed out he only took something like a dozen jumpers off the dribble all year, so while the passing is nice, he may struggle to create his own shot. Of the two projectable non-shooting wings, Kuminga is younger, more explosive, and can guard smaller/quicker guys. Eye of the beholder and whatnot, but I would imagine your ranking of Barnes depends on whether you think he can learn to shoot and/or guard beyond the 4/small 5 because he has limited value if he can't.

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Scottie Barnes has guard times on the lateral agility tests, shuttle runs, and three quarter court sprints. I'm not sure how much more athletic the Dunc'd On guys were expecting him to be. He's a legitimate five position defender that can run your offense out of the 3/4 slots. Now the jumper I understand as a red flag. Because if he can't rebuild it then he's a poor man's Ben Simmons.

Also, despite his size/length package, FSU didn't play him at the 4/5, they used him at the SF spot. So, again, not sure what the Dunc'd On guys were looking at.

HomeRunBaker said:

I’m not sure what world they are living in but I don’t want to live in a world where Frank Wagner is considered a better NBA prospect than Scottie Barnes. I don’t have an “official” list but Wagner would be borderline Top-15 or so off top of my head.......and I still wouldn’t be picking him that high.

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I like Barnes a ton and would probably go Moody-Barnes-Wagner at #5-7 (after the Big 4) if you twisted my arm for a big board. But I don’t think the delta between “Frank” Wagner and Barnes is as big as you make it out to be. In Franz’s column you have…

• Much better FT shooter
• Much better three point shooter
• Much better rebounder
• Much better shotblocker

Not as a elite a defender per scouts, but no slouch in that area, and similarly versatile and switchable (probably closer to Barnes in terms of defensive versatility than to his brother). And he’s actually a month younger than Barnes, despite playing an extra year of college. The “really young for his class” part is I think an underplayed part of his appeal. He put up his college numbers as a skinny kid going against mostly older players, and has apparently added a ton of grown man strength since the end of the season — which applies even more to Moses Moody, who is nine months younger than both Wagner and Barnes, and looked totally yoked in his most recent press event.

One great thing about guys who can stroke the 3 and defend multiple positions right out of the gate — Moody, Wagner, Duarte, Trey Murphy, e.g. — is you can keep them on the floor while they figure out all the other stuff, without killing your team on either end. With Barnes you have to take your lumps on the offensive end for a while, and pray he figures out the shooting end sooner than later. Jalen Johnson fits that description as well, imo.

Moody actually strikes me as this year’s Jayson Tatum: super young, smooth. precociously great shooting form and footwork, good length and defensive versatility, stellar reports about his character and work ethic … but getting dinged by scouts for a supposed lack of explosive athleticism and finishing ability, which I think is more a matter of adding grown man strength than anything else.

TLDR: I’ll be giddy if we grab Moody at #7, and moody if we grab Giddey.

HomeRunBaker said:

Began digging into draft stuff today and am blown away that this talk of a “Big 5” didn’t include Scottie Barnes as I just assumed it would. What am I missing here?

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I don’t listen to a ton of draft people but i know some people are all all in on Barnes.

Chad Ford loved him and thinks Toronto should take him ahead of Suggs. I know Russillo is very high on him. KOC had him at 12 on his old big board but I believe he said that he was moving him up to 5 but I may be mistaken. J Kyle Mann from The Ringer has been a huge fan before just about anyone else. I really trust all 4 of them with college evaluations

Just listening to those draft podcasts and other NBA pods I would have him firmly #5. It sounds like Kuminga has some real personality red flags and isn’t getting very good reviews from coaches (question his love of the game)whereas Barnes is getting rave reviews. If the situation were reversed I’d have Kuminga 5. I’d much rather draft the kid who his coaches love and seems to love the game

ManicCompression said:

From what I've read/seen/heard, he has some pretty big red flags, notably his inability to shoot and the fact that he's not jump-off-the-tape athletic (though he is large). I think it was the Dunc'd On pod, but they pointed out he only took something like a dozen jumpers off the dribble all year, so while the passing is nice, he may struggle to create his own shot. Of the two projectable non-shooting wings, Kuminga is younger, more explosive, and can guard smaller/quicker guys. Eye of the beholder and whatnot, but I would imagine your ranking of Barnes depends on whether you think he can learn to shoot and/or guard beyond the 4/small 5 because he has limited value if he can't.

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I haven’t listened to much Dunc’d On recently, I stopped listening when he was adamant that the Celtics should trade Marcus Smart for a 2nd round pick just to clear up space. There were other things that he was adamant about that made it pretty clear that his talent evaluation was subpar (at best) and his main value was contract and CBA knowledge.

No one knows how any of these players will turn out but I would take his draft thoughts with a major grain of salt.

And in regards to Kuminga v. Barnes, Kuminga is a better shooter (not by a lot though) and is a better leaper. I think other than that, Barnes is ahead of him in every category (and significantly in some, like basketball IQ and passing)

Sam Ray Not said:

I like Barnes a ton and would probably go Moody-Barnes-Wagner at #5-7 if you twisted my arm for a big board. But I don’t think the delta between “Frank” Wagner and Barnes is as big as you make it out to be. In Franz’s column you have…

• Much better FT shooter
• Much better three point shooter
• Much better rebounder
• Much better shotblocker

Not as a elite a defender per scouts, but no slouch in that area, and similarly versatile and switchable (probably closer to Barnes in terms of defensive versatility than to his brother). And he’s actually a month younger than Barnes, despite playing an extra year of college. The “really young for his class” part is I think an underplayed part of his appeal. He put up his college numbers as a skinny kid going against mostly older players, and has apparently added a ton of grown man strength since the end of the season — which applies even more to Moses Moody, who is nine months younger than both Wagner and Barnes, and looked totally yoked in his most recent press event.

One great thing about guys who can stroke the 3 and defend multiple positions right out of the gate — Moody, Wagner, Duarte, Trey Murphy, e.g. — is you can keep them on the floor while they figure out all the other stuff, without killing your team on either end. With Barnes you have to take your lumps on the offensive end for a while, and pray he figures out the shooting end sooner than later. Jalen Johnson fits that description as well, imo.

Moody actually strikes me as this year’s Jayson Tatum: super young, smooth. precociously great shooting form and footwork, good length and defensive versatility, stellar reports about his character and work ethic … but getting dinged by scouts for a supposed lack of explosive athleticism and finishing ability, which is more a matter of adding grown man strength than anything else.

TLDR: I’ll be giddy if we grab Moody at #7, and moody if we grab Giddey.

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This is pretty much directly from my recollection of Kevin O’ Connor’s evaluation on a podcast but isn’t Wagner a mediocre athlete at best?

I also thought that his defensive scouting report was a bit different. For some reason I remember it being that he was an excellent team defender but not very good man to man (because of his athletic limitations)

Tatum taller than Moody, smoother, better passer, better defender, better creation, better athlete.

I don't really see the Tatum upside.