Romeo Langford - Pick #14

Cesar Crespo

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Unless I have an alter ego here, I don't think I've posted 10 words about Fournier in his entire NBA career.

You got the wrong guy.

And now you are conflating arguments. There is GW last year and GW this year, there is a difference.

And I'm on record as saying I think Romeo has to produce and show significant improvement next year or he may be playing in Europe by the year after. I am disaapointed to date.
Ahh ,my bad. I have the wrong guy. It was another B poster.

So you aren't really in disagreement with me, other than Grant's rookie year.

I'm really high on Nesmith anyway.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Do people think Romeo's most likely scenario is a 30 minute starter?

Or a 15-20 minute bench player? Or something else?
 

JCizzle

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Do people think Romeo's most likely scenario is a 30 minute starter?

Or a 15-20 minute bench player? Or something else?
It's hard to project him being much more than a 15 minute player in today's game unless he greatly improves his shot. This looks like the first healthy off-season he'll have in years. It's going to be interesting to see if he puts in the JB/JT effort to improve.
 

slamminsammya

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I am just glad we were able to collectively bargain RadSox Fan from "one of the worst rookies ever" up to "his 2 seasons merit a moderate recalibration of priors downwards".

Also not sure why anyone would call out his rebounding - he is a guard. Much more impact on rebounding from a guard comes from not getting blown by and drawing the big to help in my opinion. Anyone remember the Charlotte game where Moses Brown had like 8 straight offensive rebounds after Thompson had to help?
 

Cesar Crespo

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I am just glad we were able to collectively bargain RadSox Fan from "one of the worst rookies ever" up to "his 2 seasons merit a moderate recalibration of priors downwards".

Also not sure why anyone would call out his rebounding - he is a guard. Much more impact on rebounding from a guard comes from not getting blown by and drawing the big to help in my opinion. Anyone remember the Charlotte game where Moses Brown had like 8 straight offensive rebounds after Thompson had to help?
It's not his rebounding in isolation. It's that he doesn't contribute much of anything to the box score.
 

slamminsammya

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It's not his rebounding in isolation. It's that he doesn't contribute much of anything to the box score.
Stats are garbage unless they come from the box score amirite!

So we got steals and blocks which are obviously not great ways of measuring defense. Do you agree you can play good defense without racking up those numbers? If yes, then what is the issue? He's good but could be better?

Im not worried about his assists, he might be a bad passer but his context and role on the team don't really afford much opportunity for assist numbers. What else is there? We already know he doesn't score. What exactly is your attachment to the box score?
 

Cesar Crespo

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Stats are garbage unless they come from the box score amirite!

So we got steals and blocks which are obviously not great ways of measuring defense. Do you agree you can play good defense without racking up those numbers? If yes, then what is the issue? He's good but could be better?

Im not worried about his assists, he might be a bad passer but his context and role on the team don't really afford much opportunity for assist numbers. What else is there? We already know he doesn't score. What exactly is your attachment to the box score?
No, but developing players who contribute nothing to the box score tend to have bad careers and/or wash out.

It limits his ceiling. I think he ends up an ok 15-20 minute player I'm just not sure it's on the Celtics. If he want's to be more than that, he needs to become a much better playmaker.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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[QUOTE="Cesar Crespo, post: 4431871, member: ]People were making Grant Williams out to be some savant who was supposed to be the next Draymond Green.
[/QUOTE]
Feel free to prove me wrong but from memory, no one sane on SOSH was seriously comparing GW to Draymond. GW's short arms means that he's going to be less effective than Draymond on defense.

GW's most frequent comparison is PJ Tucker, and PJ Tucker wasn't PJ Tucker until he was in his mid-20s.

I'm sure more than a couple of people here were happy that GW got no minutes yesterday.
 

pjheff

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Why does it have to be one or the other? Anyone who bases their opinion solely on one or the other is by definition using incomplete information. There are always going to be mitigating factors in every players evaluation......it’s up to the evaluator to identify these clues and weigh them properly.
Who said anything about one or the other? I certainly didn’t. Rather, I’m trying to suggest that in a hypothetical redraft Langford’s evaluation will depend on how the particular GM considers analytics in relation to traditional scouting.

Offensively, does Romeo rate well by analytics or traditional scouting?

I knew he has apparently flashed some skills in games I have missed, but my assumption is that overall he has been very bad any way you look at it on offense.
By traditional scouting I was thinking more tools than skills. He’s a 6’4” guard with plus length, solid NBA athleticism, and good pedigree who carries himself like he belongs on an NBA court. He has the things that you can’t teach and lacks the things you can.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Who said anything about one or the other? I certainly didn’t. Rather, I’m trying to suggest that in a hypothetical redraft Langford’s evaluation will depend on how the particular GM considers analytics in relation to traditional scouting.



By traditional scouting I was thinking more tools than skills. He’s a 6’4” guard with plus length, solid NBA athleticism, and good pedigree who carries himself like he belongs on an NBA court. He has the things that you can’t teach and lacks the things you can.
I didn’t come across as I intended. I agree with everyone in here including Romeo’s physical toolbox providing upside behind his early career numbers.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Don’t look now, haters, but Langford just gave the Celtics a pretty strong 13 minute stint in the first half, although the refs called a foul on him for getting a Joe Harris shoulder to the chest.
 

Bleedred

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As one of the resident skeptics (and still one), I loved what he gave us in game 3. He was active, competitive and played really well. The 2 threes were a bonus and aberrational, but there's no denying his contribution tonight.

edit: changed naysayer to skeptic
 

lovegtm

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I wonder if Langford was the plan all along or a reaction to Celtics falling behind by 15 fast
Probably the latter. Sometimes, as a coach, it's better to be lucky than good.

I get not playing Romeo much in the first 2 games, since they felt like they needed offense. But I liked how his length and physicality on defense seemed to take the Nets out of easier stuff, even when Durant was hitting every single midranger.
 

DourDoerr

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Well, that went about as well as could be expected. Really liked how he didn’t back down when Harris and Durant started aggressively shoving and slapping him. They were clearly trying to rattle him and they couldn’t. One of the stories of this game was the C’s overall toughness. It’s been a lonnnng wait. RL, MS, GW, and TT dished some. Credit to Fournier for some moxie in game 2. They need to keep it strong - the Nets might not match. Too bad Kupchak’s retired, he’d have been a good addition.
 

Humphrey

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Interesting how stock in Langford is inching up concurrently with Tyler Herro's going in the other direction.
 

Ed Hillel

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I’m still not very excited. His shooting is fugly, so much so that Brooklyn legit left him uncovered on a few possessions. He’s gonna be a good defender, but if the other team can’t be bothered to pay attention to the guy on the other end, he’s not going to be worth playing.
 

TripleOT

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Romeo hitting two three pointers was shockingly satisfying, a glimpse of what he could become, a three and d high level role player who can flypaper defend 1 to stretch 4.
 

Bleedred

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Now the gap is 1000 miles instead of 1001.

Are people really souring on Herro?
Agreed. Herro played 31 minutes today, had 14 points, 4 boards and 2 assists. He was a beast in the playoffs last year and the Heat don't make the finals without his performance against the Celtics. For the season, he averaged 30 minutes played/game, 15.1 pts/game, 5 rebounds/game. Herro is still young and uneven, but Romeo wishes he could be half as productive as Tyler as of this date.
 

radsoxfan

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Romeo hitting two three pointers was shockingly satisfying, a glimpse of what he could become, a three and d high level role player who can flypaper defend 1 to stretch 4.
I agree that was nice to see, but the guy is 10 for 45 in his career for 22% (still small sample no doubt).

Not saying you are implying this, but going 2 for 6 in one game doesn't really make him any more likely to be a useful 3 and D guy.
 
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TripleOT

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I agree that was nice to see, but the guy is 10 for 45 in his career for 22% (still small sample no doubt).

Not saying you are implying this, but going 2 for 6 in one game doesn't really make him any more likely to be a useful 3 and D guy.
I’m not implying that Romeo will become a plus shooter from three, just praying that he does. I’m very familiar with his shooting coach on the Celtics staff, Joe Mazzulla, and he will certainly give Romeo the coaching and motivation needed to become solid from three
 

Eddie Jurak

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I agree that was nice to see, but the guy is 10 for 45 in his career for 22% (still small sample no doubt).

Not saying you are implying this, but going 2 for 6 in one game doesn't really make him any more likely to be a useful 3 and D guy.
2-5 from three is respectable, and the sixth attempt was a 30 foot end-of-quarter heave.

Also, Stevens tapped him for 27 minutes in a must win playoff game (the rest of the bench combined for only 32) and he led the team with a +21.

But let's not do anything drastic like considering that a key and needed performance in a playoff game might be a good sign.
 

Cesar Crespo

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2-5 from three is respectable, and the sixth attempt was a 30 foot end-of-quarter heave.

Also, Stevens tapped him for 27 minutes in a must win playoff game (the rest of the bench combined for only 32) and he led the team with a +21.

But let's not do anything drastic like considering that a key and needed performance in a playoff game might be a good sign.

So those 27 minutes is a good sign for Romeo going forward but at the same time, we aren't allowed to use the 653 minutes he's played in the regular season to make any type of judgement whatsoever. It's cool to do so on 27 minutes though.

Good minutes count when evaluating a player with a very small sample size, not the bad ones. Glad you cleared that up.
 

Eddie Jurak

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So those 27 minutes is a good sign for Romeo going forward but at the same time, we aren't allowed to use the 653 minutes he's played as a bad sign.

Only the good minutes in a limited sample size count.
Consider whatever you want. I think context matters, you think only the raw numbers matter. Fine.

Edit: The guy you think Langford is - someone who obviously doesn't belong in the league - would have been a DNP last night. Stevens had other guys avaliable who have shown more in the NBA.
 

RetractableRoof

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Consider whatever you want. I think context matters, you think only the raw numbers matter. Fine.

Edit: The guy you think Langford is - someone who obviously doesn't belong in the league - would have been a DNP last night. Stevens had other guys avaliable who have shown more in the NBA.
That's it in a nutshell.

I loved when Harden pushed him off and he shoved Harden back with enough substance to get barked at by the ref. Called attention to the fact that everyone on the court saw that he wasn't going to take getting pushed around by Harden. Durant similarly swatted away Romeo and he just stood his ground there as well. That doesn't show on the box score, but it counts heavily in the 'pushback' column for a team that had shown very little in the series. That alone should keep his uniform number handy on Brad's rotation wheel.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I also don't think Langford is a guy who doesn't belong in the NBA. I think he ends up a 15 minute rotation player eventually, probably not with the Celtics.

Roster sizes are 15+2. It's hard to be a player who doesn't belong in the NBA. Grant Williams belongs in the NBA. Carsen Edwards does too, probably.

edit: Also, if the team was actually healthy, Romeo would have picked up that DNP-CD.
 

Cellar-Door

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Now the gap is 1000 miles instead of 1001.

Are people really souring on Herro?
Yes, he's garbage. A hot scoring streak in the bubble hid that he's bad at basically everything else and the team is significantly worse when he's on the floor than off. Robinson was clearly the much better of their young guys.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Yes, he's garbage. A hot scoring streak in the bubble hid that he's bad at basically everything else and the team is significantly worse when he's on the floor than off. Robinson was clearly the much better of their young guys.
Seems like a pretty harsh take for a player 100 days younger than Romeo.

Then again, maybe I was never super high on Herro. I had him in my tier 3 of players under 25.
 

Cellar-Door

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Seems like a pretty harsh take for a player 100 days younger than Romeo.

Then again, maybe I was never super high on Herro. I had him in my tier 3 of players under 25.
He could be good, and obviously he's been better than Romeo, but he's also not a good NBA player right now. The backlash is in part because he got a ton of hype because he shot the 3 well in the bubble and the Heat said he was not available in a Harden deal.
 

Cesar Crespo

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He could be good, and obviously he's been better than Romeo, but he's also not a good NBA player right now. The backlash is in part because he got a ton of hype because he shot the 3 well in the bubble and the Heat said he was not available in a Harden deal.
Yeah, there aren't many good NBA players in year one or two of their rookie deals. Just various levels of bad.

edit: I'd still buy on Herro's first 2 years.
 

the moops

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He could be good, and obviously he's been better than Romeo, but he's also not a good NBA player right now. The backlash is in part because he got a ton of hype because he shot the 3 well in the bubble and the Heat said he was not available in a Harden deal.
He shot 36% in OCT, 43% in NOV, 36% in DEC, 39% in JAN, 50% in FEB.

He shot 38% in the bubble.
 

Jimbodandy

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Yeah, there aren't many good NBA players in year one or two of their rookie deals. Just various levels of bad.

edit: I'd still buy on Herro's first 2 years.
You can buy either one, because year 2 was basically identical to year 1. Really not a good sign, but his team had a deep playoff run and not much offseason. We'll see next year if the hype is warranted, after he has a legit offseason. His offseason started after his shower today.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I’m still not very excited. His shooting is fugly, so much so that Brooklyn legit left him uncovered on a few possessions. He’s gonna be a good defender, but if the other team can’t be bothered to pay attention to the guy on the other end, he’s not going to be worth playing.
Bruce Bowen learned how to shoot. Anyone can learn how to shoot. If Romeo is committed to his career he’s going to be fine.
 

benhogan

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You can buy either one, because year 2 was basically identical to year 1. Really not a good sign, but his team had a deep playoff run and not much offseason. We'll see next year if the hype is warranted, after he has a legit offseason. His offseason started after his shower today.
Yep...the no offseason is completely ignored by many.
 

Cesar Crespo

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You can buy either one, because year 2 was basically identical to year 1. Really not a good sign, but his team had a deep playoff run and not much offseason. We'll see next year if the hype is warranted, after he has a legit offseason. His offseason started after his shower today.
HIs assist rate saw an increase. Whether that was due to role or growth, I dunno.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Yep...the no offseason is completely ignored by many.
Most of them had between March and August. Not necessarily an official offseason but they had time to work on their games. It's possible they didn't have access to the right equipment to work on their games. It's also possible basketball wasn't on their mind and that's 100% reasonable.

Some people are also far more motivated training with other people than in isolation. I dunno. Makes me wonder what some of these basketball players did while on break.
 

benhogan

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Most of them had between March and August. Not necessarily an official offseason but they had time to work on their games. It's possible they didn't have access to the right equipment to work on their games. It's also possible basketball wasn't on their mind and that's 100% reasonable.

Some people are also far more motivated training with other people than in isolation. I dunno. Makes me wonder what some of these basketball players did while on break.
yea, I don't get why guys like Grant, Smart, Romeo, Nesmith, Pritchard, TL aren't lined up outside of Pure Sweat's offices the day the season ends after watching videos of Embiid, Beal, Tatum, Zach LaVine, Clarkson, RJ Barrett etc.

Tatum puts up 50, plays 40+ minutes getting double/triple teamed every halfcourt possession and he is barely breaking a sweat in the post-game on-court interview. If your a young NBA player just do what JT does, off-season workout-wise, and roll the dice with the results.
 

lovegtm

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yea, I don't get why guys like Grant, Smart, Romeo, Nesmith, Pritchard, TL aren't lined up outside of Pure Sweat's offices the day the season ends after watching videos of Embiid, Beal, Tatum, Zach LaVine, Clarkson, RJ Barrett etc.

Tatum puts up 50, plays 40+ minutes getting double/triple teamed every halfcourt possession and he is barely breaking a sweat in the post-game on-court interview. If your a young NBA player just do what JT does, off-season workout-wise, and roll the dice with the results.
The improvement of Hanlen's client list is getting really, really impressive....although I will note that Semi is one of those dedicated clients.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Most of them had between March and August. Not necessarily an official offseason but they had time to work on their games. It's possible they didn't have access to the right equipment to work on their games. It's also possible basketball wasn't on their mind and that's 100% reasonable.

Some people are also far more motivated training with other people than in isolation. I dunno. Makes me wonder what some of these basketball players did while on break.
Since there is no handy statistical method to adjust for the impact of a once-in-a-century pandemic, let's just ignore or minimize it and question player motivation instead.
 

benhogan

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The improvement of Hanlen's client list is getting really, really impressive....although I will note that Semi is one of those dedicated clients.
After the first few weeks this year, Semi looked like he turned a corner, but nope...another 2021 Celtic slap in the face.

Besides his limitations offensively, I'm not a huge fan of his defense. With the way the game is called, wingspan is so important in order to challenge defensively, bodying up isn't enough. Maybe Hanlen can get him to hang from a chin-up bar all summer
 

Eddie Jurak

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After the first few weeks this year, Semi looked like he turned a corner, but nope...another 2021 Celtic slap in the face.

Besides his limitations offensively, I'm not a huge fan of his defense. With the way the game is called, wingspan is so important in order to challenge defensively, bodying up isn't enough. Maybe Hanlen can get him to hang from a chin-up bar all summer
I think he has gotten better but his offensive value was just so low that even noticeable improvement doesn't count for much.

Defensively, he just is what he is. Positional defense against guys who can drive but don't have a reliable shot. He can guard the Giannis types but the Durant types will eviscerate him.

Maybe the smart thing for him to do is take his talents, such as they are, to Europe and come back in a few years as a plus spot up shooter from 3. Then he'd have a legit NBA role despite all of his limitations.