Tatum got the bag(5 years, $195 million)

DeJesus Built My Hotrod said:

Reggie's concerns are noteworthy because the poster has significant experience coaching young players. If anyone should understand how teenage and early 20s athletes think about hoops, its someone who deals with them in that precise context. My experience with people around this age is that they often have adult skills and physicality but are immature enough to get frustrated more easily than someone with experience.

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Lets not use appeal to authority fallacy. I am none too confident, just a nagging doubt.


As a scorer Tatum reminds me of Bird, in a good way. He is just so big and such a good shooter, that he hits shots that are for anyone else are terrible shots, like 17 foot fades. He catches it transition (one reason I would like him to guve it up earelier) and though the entire team has had three walkthrus of " we stop Tatum we win" and knifes all the way to the rim anyway. I will make young people's brains explode with this, but even Lebron does not pass as well as Bird, so there is not the quick pass for the easy score.

I mean if he just makes it easier on himself by getting others involved, we may be hanging a banner.

He has also played with 2 shoot first point guards, one of whom may have been completely bonkers, so the expectation to facilitate has fallen to him.

He may be this for entirely positive parts of his personality, that he believes it is his responsibility to win the game.

All I know is that when something leaps out to someone with significant experience in their field, its worth noting. Also, I echo your view of Tatum - his shotmaking is already elite in some ways and everyone knows it including him. And setting aside issues having to do with roster construction or specific teammates, one of Tatum's biggest idols is a player who seemed to struggle at various points with their own ball dominance.

Not to excuse that trait but my sense is some of that comes back to roster building. Its hard to blame some of these people for holding on to the ball when the players they are being asked to pass to aren't really true rotational types.

reggiecleveland said:

Lets not use appeal to authority fallacy. I am none too confident, just a nagging doubt.


As a scorer Tatum reminds me of Bird, in a good way. He is just so big and such a good shooter, that he hits shots that are for anyone else are terrible shots, like 17 foot fades. He catches it transition (one reason I would like him to guve it up earelier) and though the entire team has had three walkthrus of " we stop Tatum we win" and knifes all the way to the rim anyway. I will make young people's brains explode with this, but even Lebron does not pass as well as Bird, so there is not the quick pass for the easy score.

I mean if he just makes it easier on himself by getting others involved, we may be hanging a banner.

He has also played with 2 shoot first point guards, one of whom may have been completely bonkers, so the expectation to facilitate has fallen to him.

He may be this for entirely positive parts of his personality, that he believes it is his responsibility to win the game.

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I think that there's something to what you're saying. And to be completely honest, a lot of it is simply maturity and experience.

Of course, Golden State is a perfect foil team. Some of us just watched the Celtics play that team, and the difference was striking (and that's with SIGNIFICANTLY better Celtics ball movement over the last 10 games or so). Tatum isn't Steph Curry in experience, handle, and vision, but he'll get there on at least one of those things, if not two. So while it's unfair to compare the two, it's actually not a bad comp for a guy who makes his teammates so much better (as Bird and Lebron as well). But the other difference is his place in the world right now, having recently turned 23. Steph Curry can devote 82 games to raising the level of his teammates because he has been there and done that. He has titles and MVPs and was one of the consensus top 2/3 players on earth before (and may be now again). Tatum is still learning how to involve his teammates and is doing so more than ever, but he's also feeling ownership of being the dude who everyone can count on to carry the load (especially at crunch time). And the development into clutch, end-game killer is probably just as important as the development into that guy who gets his teammates layups. And balancing the two developmental goals is hard, especially for someone his age.

tl;dr; Yeah, you're seeing something there. But I think that it's normal and part of his growth process.

I like to compare Tatum to KD. At this point of his development, it’s comparable. More efficient from the field, not as good at getting to the line, comparable rebounder, slightly better setting up teammates, probably a better defender.

KD never proved he could carry his own team to a championship, and probably never will. Tatum will probably need one more superfriend to join him and Jaylen to win a title, or two legit all stars.

Tatum is on a career path to becoming a top five player. I have zero concerns about him not getting better setting up teammates. I expect him to be a perpetual 25/8/6, at least, guy into his 30s

reggiecleveland said:

Talk me out of this, because I admit I worry about it.

But my eyes tell me Tatum is just deciding not to give the ball up, especially to certain guys.

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Does it matter that he is 23 and in his 4th year? That the team has been missing 3-4 of its top 6 players lately?

John Karalis raised a different point of concern with Tatum - that his recent success has come from driving and taking a lot of shots from the restricted area, but against a rim guarding big he doesn't even try.

Eddie Jurak said:

Does it matter that he is 23 and in his 4th year? That the team has been missing 3-4 of its top 6 players lately?

John Karalis raised a different point of concern with Tatum - that his recent success has come from driving and taking a lot of shots from the restricted area, but against a rim guarding big he doesn't even try.

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Tatum is about 2yrs from really inviting contact and thriving. It's a size/body type thing.

re Karalis concern:
Basically, whatever it is that Tatum isn't doing now, JT will analyze it in the offseason and get better at it. Handle, passing, drawing fouls, better shot selection - it will be worked on.
He's a good 4 yrs away from peak

RorschachsMask said:

When Tatum is in the game, the team has a 17% assist ratio, when he sits they have a 16.8% assist ratio. So the ball moves the same whether he is on the court or not. Their offense predictably falls off a cliff when he sits, but it’s crazy to what extent it does. Here is the offensive ratings for the team with the following players on and off the court.

Tatum: 114.5/106.3 +8.2
Jaylen: 113.4/109.9 +3.5
Kemba: 113.9/111 +2.9
Smart: 113.8/ 111.3 +2.5

Could he move the ball more? Absolutely, but I just don’t think it’s anything more than a minor issue as he learns how to play as an alpha.

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Tatum is an iso player and not a confident distributor at this point in time. Sure, people can point to his assist numbers but they aren’t that good for a ball dominant wing but much of this production comes from him purposely not looking to create for non-scorers. I don’t want Tatum moving the ball to Semi, Nesmith, Grant or Romeo and as Celtics fans you shouldn’t either. I have been beating the “doesn’t trust teammates” drum all year in regards to our ball movement bc the ball shouldn’t flow through the players I just mentioned. We did see better ball movement prior to Fournier’s Covid and that isn’t a coincidence.

For these reasons it isn’t surprising that Tatum values the ball in his hands or in the hands of Jaylen and Kemba. His on/off numbers show that we are a better offense when Tatum is making these sometimes unpopular decisions as opposed to when he is on the bench not making them.

HomeRunBaker said:

Tatum is an iso player and not a confident distributor at this point in time. Sure, people can point to his assist numbers but they aren’t that good for a ball dominant wing but much of this production comes from him purposely not looking to create for non-scorers. I don’t want Tatum moving the ball to Semi, Nesmith, Grant or Romeo and as Celtics fans you shouldn’t either. I have been beating the “doesn’t trust teammates” drum all year in regards to our ball movement bc the ball shouldn’t flow through the players I just mentioned. We did see better ball movement prior to Fournier’s Covid and that isn’t a coincidence.

For these reasons it isn’t surprising that Tatum values the ball in his hands or in the hands of Jaylen and Kemba. His on/off numbers show that we are a better offense when Tatum is making these sometimes unpopular decisions as opposed to when he is on the bench not making them.

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The Fournier point is big. The lead Celtics players clearly (and correctly) trust him a lot more than they do the back-of-the-bench guys, and it makes a huge difference.

I was somewhat worried about Tatum before Fournier was acquired, but after seeing that difference, I think it's more on Danny to fill out the roster correctly around JT.

Also, Kawhi was a significantly worse and less willing/able passer for most of his career than JT is already. This includes KL's Toronto stint. I know everyone wants their team to be the Warriors, but you can get very, very far with an elite shotmaker who plays great D at the big wing.

tldr; Tatum will improve, but the Celtics need to focus on what he can do rather than can't, and improve the roster to highlight his strengths.

The other point Karalis made recently is that there's an obvious difference between Tatum, scoring wing, and Tatum, primary ball handler/creator. He's excellent in one role but he gets the other role by default due to injuries and he's not great at that - and his offense suffers.

Old man tangent but of course Bernard King was one of the most terrifying C's opponents ever, and Tatum has a bit of Bernard King in him, I think. Anyway, right before King got injured in 1985 he had these games where he was suddenly passing more while still scoring with ridiculous (for the time) efficiency. To the untrained eye it looked as if he was in the process of figuring out how to get to another level - this is like seven years into his career - and it was another level of terrifying. I hate the Knicks but I am genuinely pissed he blew out his knee. He was great watch.

I'll get killed but here we go.

A Top Flight Alpha should firstly be a Doctor and "Do no Harm".

Tatum has some epic mind farts. That in bound "pass back" was inexcusable.

There is usually at least one per game, which isnt 2 points its a 4 or more point swing.

I love the guy and he make our team more fun to watch but he needs to (continue to) grow up.

bakahump said:

I'll get killed but here we go.

A Top Flight Alpha should firstly be a Doctor and "Do no Harm".

Tatum has some epic mind farts. That in bound "pass back" was inexcusable.

There is usually at least one per game, which isnt 2 points its a 4 or more point swing.

I love the guy and he make our team more fun to watch but he needs to (continue to) grow up.

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Is Harden not an alpha? Steph Curry? Or does D not count as harm?

Clearly Shaq was not a top flight alpha either because he harmed his team at the FT line.

edit: I don't think Tatum is a top flight alpha but for other reasons. Maybe he'll get there but I think he'll always be in the tier below.

@Cesar Crespo
I put Brain farts in a different category then "Skill" (or lack there of) based issues.
So for instance I give Shaq more of a pass. Harden and Curry are "effort based" (which in fairness is admonish able) but they also have alot more of the Offensive responsibility so I could understand a hand wave on them.

And admittedly alot of this is because I watch pretty much only Celt games and probably still grade against the heady 80s.

Wow. Karalis pulls no punches here:

https://www.bostonsportsjournal.com/2021/04/26/karalis-jayson-tatum-bad-isolation-basketball-needs-stop/

Karalis: Jayson Tatum is bad at isolation basketball, and he needs to stop

The Celtics two main guys, Jayson Tatum and Jaylen Brown (mostly Tatum), often default to solo forays when the going gets tough or when they feel too sluggish to move like Charlotte did. They are also not good at that style of basketball, despite what their incredibly high level of talent or young All-Star egos may suggest.

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Karalis points out that the Celtics were outworked, outpassed, outhustled, even outrun (by distance and everage speed) by Charlotte. But he builds to this:

Ball movement takes work. Isolating is easier.

But Tatum and Brown are not good isolation players. They sometimes make nice plays in isolation, and sometimes, especially come playoff time, they’ll be forced into that a lot more as the defenses improve. However, the numbers are pretty stark.

Tatum especially seems to fancy himself as an isolation player, but the numbers have rarely backed him up.

He is 10th in the NBA in isolation frequency this season, going one-on-one 18.5% of the time. He’s averaging .81 points per possession (PPP), which ranks him 136th. He shoots 34.1% on isolation plays, good for 154th.

Oh by the way, that’s 6.6% worse than Marcus Smart. Tatum isolates more than anyone on the Celtics, but Jeff Teague scored 1.05 PPP and had a field goal percentage of 51.7%.

Tatum is in the 38th percentile this season on isolation plays, a massive regression from last season when he was in the 75th percentile. However, last season was his only decent season in isolation plays. He went iso 15.8% of the time, which was 12th in the NBA. His 1.00 PPP was good for 50th in the league, but he was still 100th in field goal percentage (40.8%).

Brown isolates much less, which is good because he is worse at it. He isolates 6.8% of the time and averages .73 PPP this season while shooting 35.8%. It’s a slight step back from last year, which is good. He should do it less.

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Eddie Jurak said:

Wow. Karalis pulls no punches here:

https://www.bostonsportsjournal.com/2021/04/26/karalis-jayson-tatum-bad-isolation-basketball-needs-stop/

Karalis: Jayson Tatum is bad at isolation basketball, and he needs to stop


Karalis points out that the Celtics were outworked, outpassed, outhustled, even outrun (by distance and everage speed) by Charlotte. But he builds to this:

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He makes a good point.

He’s starting to consistently get to the line, here are his FT attempts over his last 10 games.

16/8/10/0/8/8/8/7/7/8

Since the all star break (25 games), he’s averaging 26.9/7.9/4.4 on a 60% TS.

The Athletic has a piece today projecting the All-NBA teams and they have Tatum barely squeaking on to the third team.

Should we be rooting for him to make that team or not? If he makes it, his contract kicks in the Rose Rule and he makes more money (which is theoretically less money to spend on other players over the next several years). But it feels weird to root against a Celtic getting the recognition.

DGreenwood said:

The Athletic has a piece today projecting the All-NBA teams and they have Tatum barely squeaking on to the third team.

Should we be rooting for him to make that team or not? If he makes it, his contract kicks in the Rose Rule and he makes more money (which is theoretically less money to spend on other players over the next several years). But it feels weird to root against a Celtic getting the recognition.

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It won't matter, we're not getting under the cap in the life of his deal likely, so it's just Wyc's money at stake

Cellar-Door said:

It won't matter, we're not getting under the cap in the life of his deal likely, so it's just Wyc's money at stake

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Right, but I'm assuming there's a limit to how much tax Wyc is willing to eat and that they'll have to make decisions based on that.

I guess Devin Booker counts as a PG?

Cesar Crespo said:

I guess Devin Booker counts as a PG?

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Good catch. This will be his third year in a row, and the year before this run started he averaged 24.9ppg

Cesar Crespo said:

I guess Devin Booker counts as a PG?

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Devin but not Oscar...

DGreenwood said:

The Athletic has a piece today projecting the All-NBA teams and they have Tatum barely squeaking on to the third team.

Should we be rooting for him to make that team or not? If he makes it, his contract kicks in the Rose Rule and he makes more money (which is theoretically less money to spend on other players over the next several years). But it feels weird to root against a Celtic getting the recognition.

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I would be rooting against him as of now, if he earns his way on to the team by heating up and getting Boston into the 4th or 5th seed then I may hope he gets it.

As of now, I think he misses. I think Lebron still makes it assuming he plays a handful of the Lakers remaining games.

It's such a lucky break for Tatum that Lebron, AD and Durant have been injured. If any of the three of them were reasonably healthy, Tatum would have no shot.

We'll see if he takes advantage of it.

DGreenwood said:

The Athletic has a piece today projecting the All-NBA teams and they have Tatum barely squeaking on to the third team.

Should we be rooting for him to make that team or not? If he makes it, his contract kicks in the Rose Rule and he makes more money (which is theoretically less money to spend on other players over the next several years). But it feels weird to root against a Celtic getting the recognition.

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You always root for your superstar to be happy. Because ultimately you want him recruiting guys to your team. Not looking for greener pastures. Happy Tatum is worth is the extra $20 million or so over four years.

mcpickl said:

I would be rooting against him as of now, if he earns his way on to the team by heating up and getting Boston into the 4th or 5th seed then I may hope he gets it.

As of now, I think he misses. I think Lebron still makes it assuming he plays a handful of the Lakers remaining games.

It's such a lucky break for Tatum that Lebron, AD and Durant have been injured. If any of the three of them were reasonably healthy, Tatum would have no shot.

We'll see if he takes advantage of it.

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Lebron is going to miss 30 or so games, I can’t imagine he makes it. And yeah those players being injured helps his case, but injuries are part of the game, multiple players benefit from it every season.

I wouldn’t call it lucky though, or that he hasn’t earned it. The team falls off a cliff when he doesn’t play, he’s one of 7 guys in the league averaging 25/7/4, while dealing with covid.

He’s likely making it either way, but if they
finish the season strong, I think he’s a lock. Plus, like the post above me says, we should want him to get the honor of making it anyways.

RorschachsMask said:

Lebron is going to miss 30 or so games, I can’t imagine he makes it. And yeah those players being injured helps his case, but injuries are part of the game, multiple players benefit from it every season.

I wouldn’t call it lucky though, or that he hasn’t earned it. The team falls off a cliff when he doesn’t play, he’s one of 7 guys in the league averaging 25/7/4, while dealing with covid.

He’s likely making it either way, but if they
finish the season strong, I think he’s a lock. Plus, like the post above me says, we should want him to get the honor of making it anyways.

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He played 55 out of 82 games for a team that missed the playoffs two years ago, and made third team.

He's at 41 games now. If he plays half of their games left, and gets to 46 of 72 games played on a defending champion playoff team, I think he makes it.

I think voters will feel stupid if they just leave Lebron James off their ballots.

And I'm still sticking with lucky that three lock forwards for the team will have missed enough time to not make the team. (Two of Lebron does make it)

Also don't think Tatum is any more likely to recruit players here, or not be looking for greener pastures, if he makes all-NBA than if he doesn't. It's not like the Celtics would be denying him extra money if he doesn't make it. It's just a CBA rule. Every dollar the Celtics can save helps.

THE SALARY DRIVE IS ON!

I know a bunch of this board thought trading down from 1 to 3 was a mistake but I'm going to go ahead and say that it has worked out well.

nm

This made me girlfriend melt.

View: https://twitter.com/jackfrank_jjf/status/1388320225720868865?s=20

RorschachsMask said:

View: https://twitter.com/Murf56/status/1388349058260013056?s=20

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And the level of difficulty on Tatum's 60 point 0 turnover effort was far greater than Melo or Klay. Melo had 62 points and ZERO assists in a 29 point win over Charlotte, Klay had 60 points and ONE assist in a 36 point win over Indy. Tatum's 60 point 5 assist performance in 3 point overtime win (plus the massive comeback) is far more impressive.

Euclis20 said:

And the level of difficulty on Tatum's 60 point 0 turnover effort was far greater than Melo or Klay. Melo had 62 points and ZERO assists in a 29 point win over Charlotte, Klay had 60 points and ONE assist in a 36 point win over Indy. Tatum's 60 point 5 assist performance in 3 point overtime win (plus the massive comeback) is far more impressive.

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Apples and oranges, but Klay’s 60 points on 11 dribbles while holding the ball a total of 90 seconds is totally insane its own right.

He also did it in just 29 minutes (sitting out the 4th Q in a blowout) while Tatum took 45.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201612050GSW.html

I definitely buy calling Klay’s night much more of a “team accomplishment” than JT’s amazing show, tho. Steph and KD deferred like crazy, combining for just 33 points, and the team dropped 45 dimes. (Man that ‘16-17 team was in perfect harmony. Sigh...)

Edit: if we’re talking more about the impressiveness of the zero turnovers, yeah, JT was miles more impressive. I actually would have been surprised to learn Klay *didn’t* have zero turnovers on a night where he took only eleven dribbles.

Thank you Nesmith for keeping that zero turnover number.

This is kinda freaky too, since Tatum usually has 1-3 WTF turnovers per game.

This is insane:

1T. Larry Bird: 60, 3/12/1985
1T. Jayson Tatum: 60, 4/30/2021
3. Kevin McHale: 56, 3/3/1985
4T. Larry Bird: 53, 3/30/1983
4T. Jayson Tatum: 53, 4/9/2021
6. Isaiah Thomas: 52, 12/30/2016
7. Sam Jones: 51, 10/29/1965
8T. Larry Bird: 50, 3/10/1986
8T. Larry Bird: 50, 11/10/1989
8T. Paul Pierce: 50, 2/15/2006

Tatum and Bird each have 2 of the top 5 games in Celtic history, but Tatum has done his 2 within the past month.

Tatum could easily have had 61 in this one. With Celtics up by a point and seconds left, Fournier inbounded to Tatum in the paint (how did the Spurs leave Tatum open in the paint?), he gathered, was fouled, went up and dunked. Should have been an "and one" that would have been Tatum's 61st point and iced the game. Instead the fucking ref called a floor foul and Tatum hit both free throws to get to 60 and give the Celtics a 3 point lead with the Spurs having a couple of seconds to try to tie it.

Eddie Jurak said:

Tatum could easily have had 61 in this one. With Celtics up by a point and seconds left, Fournier inbounded to Tatum in the paint (how did the Spurs leave Tatum open in the paint?), he gathered, was fouled, went up and dunked. Should have been an "and one" that would have been Tatum's 61st point and iced the game. Instead the fucking ref called a floor foul and Tatum hit both free throws to get to 60 and give the Celtics a 3 point lead with the Spurs having a couple of seconds to try to tie it.

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That was such a terrible call, and if Tatum hadn't hit both free throws, the Spurs could have won with a last-second 3-pointer. As it was, they got a decent look to tie the game, but the shooter (Gay?) waited an instant too long.

128 said:

That was such a terrible call, and if Tatum hadn't hit both free throws, the Spurs could have won with a last-second 3-pointer. As it was, they got a decent look to tie the game, but the shooter (Gay?) waited an instant too long.

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Yes, terrible.

Eddie Jurak said:

This is insane:

1T. Larry Bird: 60, 3/12/1985
1T. Jayson Tatum: 60, 4/30/2021
3. Kevin McHale: 56, 3/3/1985
4T. Larry Bird: 53, 3/30/1983
4T. Jayson Tatum: 53, 4/9/2021
6. Isaiah Thomas: 52, 12/30/2016
7. Sam Jones: 51, 10/29/1965
8T. Larry Bird: 50, 3/10/1986
8T. Larry Bird: 50, 11/10/1989
8T. Paul Pierce: 50, 2/15/2006

Tatum and Bird each have 2 of the top 5 games in Celtic history, but Tatum has done his 2 within the past month.

Tatum could easily have had 61 in this one. With Celtics up by a point and seconds left, Fournier inbounded to Tatum in the paint (how did the Spurs leave Tatum open in the paint?), he gathered, was fouled, went up and dunked. Should have been an "and one" that would have been Tatum's 61st point and iced the game. Instead the fucking ref called a floor foul and Tatum hit both free throws to get to 60 and give the Celtics a 3 point lead with the Spurs having a couple of seconds to try to tie it.

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So which game was more impressive, Bird's 60 or Tatum's 60?
Very similar Box scores:
Bird 43 min, 22 - 36 overall, 1 - 4 from 3, 15 - 16 from the line, 7 reb, 3 Assists.
Tatum 45 min, 20 - 37 overall, 5 - 7 from 3, 15 - 17 from the line, 8 reb 5 Assists.

The comparisons end there. I watched them both on TV live. Two very different games. Bird's was all in regulation, but the Celtics had a lead the entire game and won 126 - 115. The last few minutes the Celtics were blatantly feeding Larry so he could break McHale's record of 56 that he had set a week earlier. Bird scored 23 in the first half, and 37 in the 2nd. He stayed in until the very end, and his last hoop came after McHale got an offensive rebound and instead of putting it back up (or eating it) kicked it back out to DJ who fed Bird for a 15 foot buzzer beater (yes, buzzer beater with a 9 point lead!). During his crazy hot run in the 2nd half (32 points in a 14 minute span) he made some incredibly difficult shots. The Hawks players were falling off the bench and high-fiving each other in awe of the shots Larry was making with people draped all over him. Three Hawks actually got fined by their coach for celebrating for the other team.

Tatum scored 50 in regulation and 10 in OT of the 143 - 140 win, and as Brad said afterwards "We needed every single one of them". He had 14 of the 16 points the Celtics scored in the first quarter, and 26 at the half. 34 in the second half. Strangely only 3 in the 3rd quarter when the C's started the big comeback, but 21 in the 4th quarter including several clutch shots late. The only "negative" was he missed a fade-away at the buzzer (I'll go out on a limb and say Larry would have made that) that would have won it in regulation. Of course that miss allowed him to tie the record in OT. As others have mentioned, the questionable call prevented him from getting 61.

Two incredible games, with both guys putting on amazing shooting performances. I'm going to go with Tatum as the more impressive game, only because the points meant more to the outcome of the game, and every single one of them was in the normal flow of the game whereas Larry scored several meaningless points at the end as his teammates abandoned the normal offense so he could break the record.

Edit: Fixed a typo in Tatum's stat line

Eagle3 said:

So which game was more impressive, Bird's 60 or Tatum's 60?
Very similar Box scores:
Bird 43 min, 22 - 36 overall, 1 - 4 from 3, 15 - 16 from the line, 7 reb, 3 Assists.
Tatum 45 min, 20 - 37 overall, 5 - 7 from 3, 15 - 15 from the line, 8 reb 5 Assists.

The comparisons end there. I watched them both on TV live. Two very different games. Bird's was all in regulation, but the Celtics had a lead the entire game and won 126 - 115. The last few minutes the Celtics were blatantly feeding Larry so he could break McHale's record of 56 that he had set a week earlier. Bird scored 23 in the first half, and 37 in the 2nd. He stayed in until the very end, and his last hoop came after McHale got an offensive rebound and instead of putting it back up (or eating it) kicked it back out to DJ who fed Bird for a 15 foot buzzer beater (yes, buzzer beater with a 9 point lead!). During his crazy hot run in the 2nd half (32 points in a 14 minute span) he made some incredibly difficult shots. The Hawks players were falling off the bench and high-fiving each other in awe of the shots Larry was making with people draped all over him. Three Hawks actually got fined by their coach for celebrating for the other team.

Tatum scored 50 in regulation and 10 in OT of the 143 - 140 win, and as Brad said afterwards "We needed every single one of them". He had 14 of the 16 points the Celtics scored in the first quarter, and 26 at the half. 34 in the second half. Strangely only 3 in the 3rd quarter when the C's started the big comeback, but 21 in the 4th quarter including several clutch shots late. The only "negative" was he missed a fade-away at the buzzer (I'll go out on a limb and say Larry would have made that) that would have won it in regulation. Of course that miss allowed him to tie the record in OT. As others have mentioned, the questionable call prevented him from getting 61.

Two incredible games, with both guys putting on amazing shooting performances. I'm going to go with Tatum as the more impressive game, only because the points meant more to the outcome of the game, and every single one of them was in the normal flow of the game whereas Larry scored several meaningless points at the end as his teammates abandoned the normal offense so he could break the record.

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Yeah, it's pretty rare and special to see a guy go off for huge numbers and have them all be needed in that way.

RorschachsMask said:

Lebron is going to miss 30 or so games, I can’t imagine he makes it. And yeah those players being injured helps his case, but injuries are part of the game, multiple players benefit from it every season.

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Not only do I expect LeBron to make it, I don’t expect any voter to leave him off the ballot. He was the MVP favorite before the injury and will end up playing in 65% of his teams games. Without doing a deep dive, Kawhi made 2nd Team last year while playing 70% of his teams games in finishing behind LeBron, Giannis and AD.

The past couple weeks have made the frontcourt All-NBA teams really interesting with Randle and Zion now in that mix. There will be one big time snub simply based on there being 10 deserving players for 9 frontcourt slots. Unless LeBron sits out the rest of the way it isn’t going to be him or I’ll eat a bag of Rocco’........

HomeRunBaker said:

Not only do I expect LeBron to make it, I don’t expect any voter to leave him off the ballot. He was the MVP favorite before the injury and will end up playing in 65% of his teams games. Without doing a deep dive, Kawhi made 2nd Team last year while playing 70% of his teams games in finishing behind LeBron, Giannis and AD.

The past couple weeks have made the frontcourt All-NBA teams really interesting with Randle and Zion now in that mix. There will be one big time snub simply based on there being 10 deserving players for 9 frontcourt slots. Unless LeBron sits out the rest of the way it isn’t going to be him or I’ll eat a bag of Rocco’........

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Yeah LeBron coming back last night means I’m wrong, he will definitely make it. Tatum will have to battle with Paul George/Zion now, I think Randle is a lock at this point.

Games like last night certainly will help his case though. I think he should make it over George/Zion, but can’t deny how great Zion has been offensively, and George is having probably the second best season of his career, for a team that is 43-21.

Eagle3 said:

So which game was more impressive, Bird's 60 or Tatum's 60?
Very similar Box scores:
Bird 43 min, 22 - 36 overall, 1 - 4 from 3, 15 - 16 from the line, 7 reb, 3 Assists.
Tatum 45 min, 20 - 37 overall, 5 - 7 from 3, 15 - 17 from the line, 8 reb 5 Assists.

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To me what's really impressive about JT last night was that his sidekick went what 5-24? Means to me that he wasn't totally dominating the ball and all of the shots. It also made the game closer

Eddie Jurak said:

This is insane:

1T. Larry Bird: 60, 3/12/1985
1T. Jayson Tatum: 60, 4/30/2021
3. Kevin McHale: 56, 3/3/1985
4T. Larry Bird: 53, 3/30/1983
4T. Jayson Tatum: 53, 4/9/2021
6. Isaiah Thomas: 52, 12/30/2016
7. Sam Jones: 51, 10/29/1965
8T. Larry Bird: 50, 3/10/1986
8T. Larry Bird: 50, 11/10/1989
8T. Paul Pierce: 50, 2/15/2006

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I love how McHale knocks Bird out of the top spot on 3/3/83 and Bird comes back 9 days later and drops 60.

I watched both the McHale 58 point game and the Bird 60 a few games after it. It’s tough to top the Bird performance in style points, because he was making shots from all over the court (to the famous reaction of the Hawks’ bench), but it was done in a game where the Celtics ran out to a lead early, and held it all game. Looking at the box score, the Celts had 44 assists on 52 buckets with DJ tallying 17 and Ainge 13. KC Jones’ load management game wasn’t strong, with three starters going 40 minutes, two going 38.

Tatum’s 60 came in an epic comeback, and will be remembered that way. The way he scores so effortlessly, the way points can be accumulated so quickly with threeballs, and the way he can draw fouls, Tatum will score 50+ points quite often, and I won’t be surprised when he goes over 60.

A little breakdown of his season, and I don’t want to put it all on covid, because he was playing some bad basketball regardless. But it’s clear that it had a pretty big impact on him for the month or so after.

Pre covid (10 games) 27/7/4 on a 59% TS
Post covid (21 games) 24/7/5 on a 53% TS
Post all star break (26 games) 28/8/4.4 on a 61% TS.

TripleOT said:

I watched both the McHale 58 point game and the Bird 60 a few games after it. It’s tough to top the Bird performance in style points, because he was making shots from all over the court (to the famous reaction of the Hawks’ bench), but it was done in a game where the Celtics ran out to a lead early, and held it all game. Looking at the box score, the Celts had 44 assists on 52 buckets with DJ tallying 17 and Ainge 13. KC Jones’ load management game wasn’t strong, with three starters going 40 minutes, two going 38.

Tatum’s 60 came in an epic comeback, and will be remembered that way. The way he scores so effortlessly, the way points can be accumulated so quickly with threeballs, and the way he can draw fouls, Tatum will score 50+ points quite often, and I won’t be surprised when he goes over 60.

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I recall these as well. McHale’s was on a Sunday afternoon. I didn’t see one second of the game as I was going from store to store with my father doing some type of shopping but we listened on the radio. Bird’s was a Tuesday night following a rec league game and I watched the 2H at friends house. Bird’s was much more stylish than Tatum’s but as you said it was a fairly comfortable win against a bad Atlanta Hawks team on the back leg of a B2B who had already quit on the seasons having lost 9 of 10. ‘Nique got up 34 shots that night and he wasn’t interested in guarding anyone.

Fun facts on that night.....

* DJ and Ainge combined for 30 assists yet DJ still managed to get up 18 shots.

* KC would run those guys into the ground Dusty Baker style.....the entire bench played just 38 min with Wedman and Ray Williams taking 35 of those. Oh and the C’s had a game the following night that The Big Three each exceeded 38 min.

* Doc Rivers was on that Hawks team.

HomeRunBaker said:

I recall these as well. McHale’s was on a Sunday afternoon. I didn’t see one second of the game as I was going from store to store with my father doing some type of shopping but we listened on the radio. Bird’s was a Tuesday night following a rec league game and I watched the 2H at friends house. Bird’s was much more stylish than Tatum’s but as you said it was a fairly comfortable win against a bad Atlanta Hawks team on the back leg of a B2B who had already quit on the seasons having lost 9 of 10. ‘Nique got up 34 shots that night and he wasn’t interested in guarding anyone.

Fun facts on that night.....

* DJ and Ainge combined for 30 assists yet DJ still managed to get up 18 shots.

* KC would run those guys into the ground Dusty Baker style.....the entire bench played just 38 min with Wedman and Ray Williams taking 35 of those. Oh and the C’s had a game the following night that The Big Three each exceeded 38 min.

* Doc Rivers was on that Hawks team.

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Great memories.

Funny, I listened to most of that game in the car running errands with my old man too.

That Hawks game was never in doubt. And while the fun, circus atmosphere was something that I won't forget either, Tatum's game was so much more impressive because we needed every point. This game meant more to us than that Bird's 60 also, as that team was on Finals cruise control as usual.