It was nice to see Cam tuning out on the filed to congratulate Stidham for his TD on Sunday. Seemed genuinely happy for him.
2020 Pats: You Cam Go Your Own Way
- Thread starter RedOctober3829
- Start date
He's hit Byrd on several comeback routes but it's not a feature of this offense. I believe it's also an easier throw for a QB as the receiver is coming straight back in a line rather than moving laterally at speed. You're correct on the back shoulder though - the O lacks size outside. He's obviously not getting lifted up by his receivers, but he's also not elevating their play much either. I'll agree with everyone that he's doing a great job in keeping the locker room together - no small feat when your receivers are looking to get paid and they're sharing 69 total receiving yards. Ah, I think I'm just cranky.
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The comeback isn't a feature but historically it's an important constraint play. They want to work the middle of the field, so if defenses flood the middle of the field, and leave the outside receivers one on one, they have to hit those outside comebacks. But that means the frequency they attack that route is going to vary by how the defense is defending them - if they're playing the middle stuff honestly, they'll work there.
I get this. I guess my point is the yardage numbers are so small that there aren't any feature plays. They're not working the middle or the sidelines. They're winning though, but I don't see the sustainability long-term without more variety. We'll find out if Cam's healthy enough - because I think his accuracy issues and throwing tendencies are directly related to his shoulder woes - going forward to lift up the passing game when it's necessary. And it will be. As I mentioned, he had a couple of throws that looked promising, so maybe he's in the process of recovering and will be able to improve his throws and consistency as a result.
The offense is unique enough that the added element of an efficient pass option will get it to a whole other level. Keene may be a key to unlocking that potential.
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No need to cut Cam, but Stidham should be starting for the reps. The loss to the Rams isn't entirely on Cam though. That defense is really extraordinary.
The dude completed nine passes.... NINE! He has a combined 188 yards passing in the last two games. He fucking sucks.
Stidham completed 5 passes in the three drives he was in there.
Cam is not an NFL QB.
These guys get it
BB in the postgame, "Cam's our quarterback."
Interesting squaring that with his response to next question about Harry, "All young players get better as they play more and gain experience."
Interesting squaring that with his response to next question about Harry, "All young players get better as they play more and gain experience."
I honestly don't get why people are surprised.... Cam is wildly inconsistent and not good. He's still the best QB on the roster and the whole culture Bill has built is about doing your job, trying to win every game etc. Bill isn't going to switch to Stidham unless there is a clear idea within the staff and team that he gives them a better chance to win. The idea that Bill would give Stidham starts just to shake things up when he doesn't think he's any good is the anti-thesis of how he's operated. Cam will start the rest of the year if healthy, then we'll let him go, and bring in a new starter. Stidham will likely get to compete with either a vet on the minimum or a draft pick for the backup spot and if/when he loses he probably gets cut.
Not sure Belichick has ever benched a player in a post-game press conference, so I don't consider his answer to be unexpected; or wrong, even.
The Pats have 3 games left against AFC East opponents. There is no reason to play Cam in these games. None. Find out what Stidham can do or can't in these 3 games against the teams you have to compete against.
With Cam issues: his abdominal injury, our lack of skill players, and our rookie OTs going up against a good pass rush it was too much. I believe @Cellar-Door nailed it. I would think though that if Cam's injury is truly impacting his play it would be beneficial to give Stidham a chance to play 1-2+ games with the starters with a full week of practice and see what he gives you. To me it's not waving the white flag if he's hurt.
"Cam is our quarterback" is a far cry from Bill's answers when Brady stunk up the joint. It was "we're on to cincinnatti" or some other thing. I can't remember all the times Tom got questioned as if he would be the starting QB for the next game, but I don't remember an emphatic "Tom's our QB", but memories are always selective.
Still, If you want to see why Bill won't run Stidham out there. I think that helps to clarify that Bill doesn't think Stidham gives them a shot at winning at all. Which is kind of amazing considering what he is getting out of Cam.
Still, If you want to see why Bill won't run Stidham out there. I think that helps to clarify that Bill doesn't think Stidham gives them a shot at winning at all. Which is kind of amazing considering what he is getting out of Cam.
As you can imagine, It didn't happen very often. And when it did, It wasn't pretty.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYJZFMo-byw&feature=emb_title
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4chLklQdek
If BB is continuing to stick with Cam then I’m going to wonder if he’s lost the plot. It makes zero sense.
This was my exact thought process as well. Pats are still mathematically in the playoff chase, but what are the odds that Cam is on the team next season? I would imagine pretty slim.
Stidham will likely be on the team next season and now would be the time to figure out if he can be a serviceable starter or backup, or if he’s waiver bait.
I don’t see the value in continuing to give Cam Newton snaps after last night’s result. The offense is what it is and the only thing learned from this season is running Navy’s offense at the NFL level isn’t feasible.
It's hard to know Bill's actual thought processes here, so we can only speculate based on past words and actions.
Bill (and the coaching staff) probably figured that with a limited Cam Newton they were able to get to 6-6 with an outside shot at the playoffs after winning 4 of 5. Of the QB's on the roster, the coaches felt that Cam gave them the best chance to win any given Sunday. As hard as that may be to believe, it was probably an accurate based on what they see in practice. Belichick does not believe in the "game day player" nonsense, so Stidham obviously hasn't shown anything in practice. However, they do need someone to take snaps in case Cam goes down, so Stidham and Hoyer remain on the roster.
At this point, it's hard to see what the Pats have to play for. The slim mathematical window to reach the playoffs will likely be closed after the weekend. So there could be benefit for the team to see what they have with Stidham. However, the coaches may already know the answer, and it's probably something we may not want to hear.
Finally, Cam is respected veteran who by all accounts has earned the respect of the locker room. Belichick has never openly thrown a player under the bus after a tough loss, and that includes Adalius Thomas. There's no upside to him causing a QB controversy with vague statements in the post-game presser. Drew Bledsoe was mentioned upthread, but he was hurt when the change was made, and he communicated his eventual decision internally before going to the press. If he's going to make a change, he's going to talk to Cam first in private. Then he'll to the press that he's changed his mind and is making a move in the best interests of the football club, and live with the mediots laughably slinging "hubris and arrogance" at him.
Bill (and the coaching staff) probably figured that with a limited Cam Newton they were able to get to 6-6 with an outside shot at the playoffs after winning 4 of 5. Of the QB's on the roster, the coaches felt that Cam gave them the best chance to win any given Sunday. As hard as that may be to believe, it was probably an accurate based on what they see in practice. Belichick does not believe in the "game day player" nonsense, so Stidham obviously hasn't shown anything in practice. However, they do need someone to take snaps in case Cam goes down, so Stidham and Hoyer remain on the roster.
At this point, it's hard to see what the Pats have to play for. The slim mathematical window to reach the playoffs will likely be closed after the weekend. So there could be benefit for the team to see what they have with Stidham. However, the coaches may already know the answer, and it's probably something we may not want to hear.
Finally, Cam is respected veteran who by all accounts has earned the respect of the locker room. Belichick has never openly thrown a player under the bus after a tough loss, and that includes Adalius Thomas. There's no upside to him causing a QB controversy with vague statements in the post-game presser. Drew Bledsoe was mentioned upthread, but he was hurt when the change was made, and he communicated his eventual decision internally before going to the press. If he's going to make a change, he's going to talk to Cam first in private. Then he'll to the press that he's changed his mind and is making a move in the best interests of the football club, and live with the mediots laughably slinging "hubris and arrogance" at him.
Troy Aikman, in the most diplomatic way he could, pretty much said last night that the Patriots' offense is f*cking awful. We all know this but this is something that jumps out to anyone watching this team. And it all starts with Cam. The skill position players obviously aren't great outside of Harris but he just makes everyone around him worse.
I'm 100% confident that Stidham isn't the answer but I also want to see further development from guys like Harry, Meyers, etc. And that simply won't happen with a QB who never throws and when he actually does, rifles the ball at your feet. That back shoulder throw to Harry completely caught me off guard because we haven't seen it all year.
Good luck to BB the GM this offseason.
I'm 100% confident that Stidham isn't the answer but I also want to see further development from guys like Harry, Meyers, etc. And that simply won't happen with a QB who never throws and when he actually does, rifles the ball at your feet. That back shoulder throw to Harry completely caught me off guard because we haven't seen it all year.
Good luck to BB the GM this offseason.
For 20 years Belichick's philosophy has been that the best players play. It doesn't matter your draft position, history, big name, contract, whatever. The best players on the team play.
For Belichick to double down and insist that Cam is still the starter means one of a few things:
- Cam really is the best QB on the team, which given his performance is indicative of an utter failure by the team to provide NFL-level play at the position
- or, Stidham is SO BAD that he cannot beat out the worst passer in the league, meaning that he has no place on an NFL roster and thus should be cut
- or, Cam is playing despite not being the best player in that position for reasons that elude everyone.
Maybe Stidham is just another Tommy Hodson. He most likely is. But he needs the chance to show he's not.
For Belichick to double down and insist that Cam is still the starter means one of a few things:
- Cam really is the best QB on the team, which given his performance is indicative of an utter failure by the team to provide NFL-level play at the position
- or, Stidham is SO BAD that he cannot beat out the worst passer in the league, meaning that he has no place on an NFL roster and thus should be cut
- or, Cam is playing despite not being the best player in that position for reasons that elude everyone.
Maybe Stidham is just another Tommy Hodson. He most likely is. But he needs the chance to show he's not.
I don’t think you know what Navy’s offense is based on this post, but I see what you did here.
What is really, really hard for me to understand is that if #2 is true, how could BB and the Patriots have possibly have been planning on going with Stidham as the starting QB? I mean, I would think that Cam has performed worse than most of us expected, really. So, that means that Stidham really, really sucks. Was their evaluation of him prior to the season that off? I mean, they must have thought that Stidham was better than what Cam has done this season. What a complete failure of talent evaluation (unless their original plan was to Tank for Trevor - but I don't really believe that and it doesn't seem to jive with how they have approached the season)
I’m actually skeptical that Belichick at this stage in his career and at his age can rebuild this thing. I’m not fond of the quote he said a few years ago that said “At this stage I only want to coach the players I want to coach”. It’s not a quote that he should have said.
I put it into the Goat thread but goes better here. Newton is the worst signing in the Bill B era because of the effect this signing is going to have on the team for years to come. We have no idea if Myers/Harry are average or better WR because you have to run a bad college offense to get anything out of Cam yet he is going to win just enough games to ensure you don't get to draft a future QB. At least Stidham will get the ball out in under 4 seconds and possibly read the defense pre-snap. This has to end though at this point the damage has already been done so "it is what it is".
I think it was the perfect storm of Brady leaving, zero cap space because of AB/Brady hits, and the 2020 draft being an awful QB draft outside of the guys we had no shot at getting. So, the plan was always going to be Stidham, Hoyer, and whatever scrap heap QB we could get, which turned out to be Cam.
I don't blame them for giving Cam a shot and sticking with it as long as the playoffs were possible. But now is the time to switch. Winovich gets exiled for games on end but Cam is allowed to ruin games almost single-handedly with no repercussions.
What's the structure of Cam's contract? Is he coming close to hitting some playing time incentives?
This is a negative point of view...If you put a league-average QB on this team and don't have the COVID weeks they are probably tied for first place in the division right now.
With the right moves this offseason, they are back to contender status next year. The key and hardest part being a QB, but that issue is not a BB issue, that is just an NFL reality.
You can evaluate receivers even if the QB isn’t a good passer. Happens all the time.
Time to remind everyone that Aaron Rodgers was drafted 23 slots behind Alex Smith. And that Russell Wilson was the 6th QB taken in his draft year. The NFL is not the NBA.
Tough to evaluate WR when you throw for under 100 yds per game and average what 20 attempts per game?
Tape will tell you if they are running the right routes, getting separation etc but we have no idea if any of them can make plays in traffic because they don't throw the ball.
Sure and Tom Brady was a 6th rd pick. I'd still rather have a shot at a highly regarded QB than hoping a mid-tier one pans out.
Yup. And I say that as an absolute believer in Bill. Bedard speculates that the team doesn't believe in Stidham due to his unwillingness to play through a minor training camp injury when he had a chance to win the job, and Belichick thinks he'll lose them if he benches Cam for Stidham.
If so...cut the kid and bring someone else in (in September).
If you're unwilling to make a change even with this degree of incompetent play at the most important position, something is wrong. I have no idea what. But you can't get worse than the QB play we've gotten the last two weeks. It's a zero.
For reference, Pro Football Reference has Cam at about an 86% snap count
https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/news/cam-newton-contract-details-patriots-salary/1uxvugjdz4fur14utebunzcif1
Per-game roster bonuses: $43,750 per game (up to $700,000)
Playing time incentives:
- 13 percent: $250,000
- 20 percent: $500,000
- 30 percent: $750,000
- 40 percent: $1 million
- 50 percent: $1.25 million
- 60 percent: $1.5 million ($2.25 million if Patriots make playoffs)
- 70 percent: $1.75 million ($2.25 million if Patriots make playoffs)
- 80 percent: $2 million ($3 million if Patriots make playoffs)
- 90 percent: $2.25 million ($3.75 million if Patriots make playoffs)
All-Pro bonus: $500,000
Playoff wins: $250,000 per win (if he plays 50 percent of game)
Cam has played 86% of the teams snaps. Even if he's benched, good chance he could still be at 70%, which will earn him $1.75M total. Worst case he would be at 60%, or $1.5M. There's $250K additional for each 10%. The playoff snap count bonuses are essentially moot at this point, as are the Pro Bowl and All-Pro boni.
So if he gets to 90% there's another bump coming.
Maybe this is just doing a solid for a vet BB respects.
Maybe this is just doing a solid for a vet BB respects.
If he was benched now, he probably doesn't get to 80%. So there's likely $500K in total bonus money at stake.
Think so. They typically will give the incentive out anyway if someone is close.
There's also the possibility / probability that Belichick doesn't think QB play is the problem with the offense. For the second year running, they have the worst TE production in the league or thereabouts. They have a ragtag group of receivers and by far their best (Edelman) has been out for weeks. They're down their LT on the OL and his replacement was getting beaten like a drum last night. The O did not look any better with Stidham in, because he had no time to throw either, even though he was looking short the whole time.
That said ... I'm not sure what Belichick does think is the problem with the offense, because they're not changing anything up at all. It's basically the same WR mix we've seen since Edelman went out, the rookie TEs only played last night because Izzo went on, interesting veterans like Moncrief and Thomas aren't getting any run, they aren't trying to get Harris going in the passing game ... I'm not sure how they think this is going to get fixed without making any changes.
Agreed. I'm less concerned about this year and more concerned about the implications for next year. This entire unit outside of RB and OL needs wholesale changes. Our #1 WR next year probably (and hopefully) isn't on the roster. The next starting QB almost surely isn't on the roster. White may be gone. Edelman might be granted a trade. Byrd might be gone. The 2 young TEs will be back but will be entirely unproven. They are pretty much blowing it up and starting from scratch this spring. Or at least I hope they are.