What does Wiggins get you close on? Please help me understand why Philadelphia would do that?Wiggins, #2 overall and additional future firsts gets you close.
What does Wiggins get you close on? Please help me understand why Philadelphia would do that?Wiggins, #2 overall and additional future firsts gets you close.
I dunno. That doesn’t get me close given how poor the top end of this draft is. Wiggins is a post hype dude on a bad contract. #2 gets you a non-sure thing and who knows with future picks. You don’t trade a star in his prime like Embiid for that unless he forces the issue. And he really can’t since he’s signed through 2023. Only way I would even consider it is if a can staple Harris or Horford with him but even then you’re basically ruining any chance at a title because of a self-inflicted wound.Wiggins, #2 overall and additional future firsts gets you close.
To reworking the team into something that might have a chance to do something. Al isn't movable, and Al and Embiid together won't win anything. They need to make big changes to compete.What does Wiggins get you close on? Please help me understand why Philadelphia would do that?
It would have to be something like "they could then route the picks to a 3rd team", but agree in general.Andrew Wiggins makes the Sixers worse than they are now and draft picks from a middling pool aren't going to help with the current roster.
Again, why would Philadelphia trade an elite player under control for four more seasons for what many consider one of the worst contracts in the league?
Again, I could be missing something but I see the 76ers standing pat if that is Embiid's market.
Counterpoint: I know it's fun among Celtics' fans to bash Embiid for the conditioning issues, but he played his guts out this series and impressed the hell out of me. Outside of the 3rd quarter in Game 2, Philly never quit even when it would have been easy to do so.Was anyone scared by big bad Joel this series? Watching him get gassed by the end of Q1 and fading all game long was the most predictable thing since watching Butch Hobson toss routine grounders into the dugout. Anyone that lets Kanter guard them credibly and then is incapable of guarding the perimeter is NOT a top 10 player going forward in the NBA.
If Phila decides to deal either/or, it has to be Embiid to go in my book. If they could get that haul from Chicago they should act on it OR If they could swing something Celts/Nets like with the KNICKs. Tobias + Embiid for salary and a bevvy of future picks.
Nothing is happening on that front until they clean out the entire front office and fire BB.
Wonder if they could convince Jay Wright to take his talents to the NBA?
Very much this, but I’ll go a bit further. I concede Embiid would look better with a proper cast and coaching and yes, maybe even do more cardio. Who wouldn’t?Counterpoint: I know it's fun among Celtics' fans to bash Embiid for the conditioning issues, but he played his guts out this series and impressed the hell out of me. Outside of the 3rd quarter in Game 2, Philly never quit even when it would have been easy to do so.
He was asked to do an insane amount in this series, and a more balanced team would be able to save him from so much banging on offense, which would leave him with more energy on defense. Rudy Gobert and Nikola Jokic aren’t asked to fight for post position every time down for 35-40 minutes.
The Sixers offensive gameplan in Game 4 was better in this regard, but their personnel sucks and it was too little, too late. I thought he did a good job both asking Brett Brown for more responsibility on defense, and then putting in the effort to get up to touch on screens.
I still would trade him over Simmons, because I think Simmons is a freaking stud and perfect for the modern game. But there will absolutely be GMs willing to go all-in on Embiid, and I don't think they're dumb to do so.
Here's the problem with that thinking. Yes it almost definitely makes them worse now (though it's more than wiggins, you also get the #2 pick and horford would become a much more useful player on the new roster), what move that they can do makes them better?Andrew Wiggins makes the Sixers worse than they are now and draft picks from a middling pool aren't going to help with the current roster.
Again, why would Philadelphia trade an elite player under control for four more seasons for what many consider one of the worst contracts in the league?
Again, I could be missing something but I see the 76ers standing pat if that is Embiid's market.
The Simmons/Embiid problem is overblown imo. The problem is that they didn’t surround w shooting. If they had just done something like sign Theis as backup center for 2/14 and traded a pick for Bertans, this team would be amazing. Even Harris would look decent.Very much this, but I’ll go a bit further. I concede Embiid would look better with a proper cast and coaching and yes, maybe even do more cardio. Who wouldn’t?
I struggle with the idea Simmons is a better franchise player, but can’t even pair effectively with the most dominant big in thegame. He can’t shoot. Sure that could change, but I’m not building my team around that mix (someone help me build the rest of the Sixers championship team around Simmons?) when almost anybody works with well coached Embiid.
In that same alternate universe, Theis probably left because the Celtics kept Al and thus didn't get Kemba, yikes.The Simmons/Embiid problem is overblown imo. The problem is that they didn’t surround w shooting. If they had just done something like sign Theis as backup center for 2/14 and traded a pick for Bertans, this team would be amazing. Even Harris would look decent.
It's not a good universe.In that same alternate universe, Theis probably left because the Celtics kept Al and thus didn't get Kemba, yikes.
Giannis isn't the primary ball handler/initiator, but Westbrook could be. Do you see Simmons as a primary ball handler?If you think of Simmons as big Westbrook or smaller Giannis, it’s a lot clearer what a team constructed around him could look like.
Yes.Giannis isn't the primary ball handler/initiator, but Westbrook could be. Do you see Simmons as a primary ball handler?
I could see him being fine running an offense surrounded by 4 shooters like Westbrook, but I think spacing becomes an issue with Embiid out there. As evidence, look at what the Rockets had to do to make the Westbrook thing work. They traded away their centers and play 5 out.
That's a reason to trade Embiid and play Al at the 5 more. Though Al isn't a significantly better shooter than Embiid at this point.Giannis isn't the primary ball handler/initiator, but Westbrook could be. Do you see Simmons as a primary ball handler?
I could see him being fine running an offense surrounded by 4 shooters like Westbrook, but I think spacing becomes an issue with Embiid out there. As evidence, look at what the Rockets had to do to make the Westbrook thing work. They traded away their centers and play 5 out.
I think Embiid to GS is a real possibility, but it would be for a hell of a lot more than Wiseman+Wiggins.The more I think about it, the more I think Embiid to GS (for Wiggins and Wiseman) is a thing that might well happen. Seems far more logical from the perspective of both sides than Simmons to GS, much as I love to fantasize about Ben running with the Splash Bros. Steph and Joel are buddies; and Wiseman gives Philly a younger, fitter, faster, less disgruntled version of Embiid who could develop as Horford’s understudy over the next couple seasons. Obviously he’s miles from Embiid skill-wise right now, but his timeline still fits well with Simmons, who just turned 24.
As others have noted, Simmons-Richardson-Wiggins-Harris-Horford at least makes some structural sense, as both Harris and Horford get to play their more natural positions. Having a 6-10 PG with Wiseman on the bench mitigates any concerns about size.
Deal leaves GS with massive hole at the wing and backup PG, but that’s a topic for another thread. (One option: Minny 2021 + TPE for Kelly Oubre; and Trey Burke with the MLE).
Gotta respect SRN for staying on-brand though.Yeah, Wiggins and Wiseman isn’t even close to being close.
I thought the dubs had to save the pick to package with Eric Paschall for Giannis.Gotta respect SRN for staying on-brand though.
That’s an interesting overall structure. I’m super-low on Ayton’s D, so I don’t do it, but I get the idea.What about Phoenix?
Ayton
Oubre
Bridges (that would be funny)
Pick
for
Embiid
Phoenix gets a perfect big man to pair with Booker and Philly gets a young big with real upside to replace Embiid along with a nice piece in Bridges who they never should have traded in the first place. Oubre is a FA next year and could be sent to a 3rd team since he isn’t a great fit in Philly with Harris there.
Fair point. Probably means one has to go, as seems likely at this point.The roster construction issue with the "Simmons+Embiid+shooting" blueprint is what we saw two years ago when they did just that, and Brad Stevens hunted the likes of Redick and Ilyasova and Belinelli on offense (while sagging off of Simmons on defense). It's not just surrounding them with shooting, it's surrounding them with shooters who can hold their own on defense, and those 3&D guys are expensive and hard to find. It's possible to hide one subpar defender if their offensive justifies it, as the Celtics have done with Kyrie/Kemba (and even Isaiah for a bit, though that was far tougher), but when you need several on the floor at a given time, your GM needs to be both lucky and good to collect the right pieces that don't create a target rich environment for a competent pick and roll offense to feast on in the playoffs when teams have time to really game plan.
SOLD... on top 10 player and crazy bidding wars for oft-injured/out of shape MAX players with declining cap spaceI think Embiid to GS is a real possibility, but it would be for a hell of a lot more than Wiseman+Wiggins.
Embiid on the block would be a crazy bidding war: he's a 26 year-old top-10 player (in the right situation) who's under contract for 3 more years. He should easily get an AD/PG price.
YES I'd want Simmons to play the 5 and YES nobody wants/needs a 5, there is an ABUNDANCE of centers.If I'm trading Embiid, it's to play Simmons on defense at the 5. I woudn't trade Embiid for a center.
Edit: Well, not all the time. But I want the option.
Countercounterpoint: Embiid had 4 assists in the series and 0 in Game 4. Doris mentioned (and I assume she's correct on this) is that Embiid is at the top of post players in points per possession when he is NOT doubled-teamed but drops way down when he is double-teamed.Counterpoint: I know it's fun among Celtics' fans to bash Embiid for the conditioning issues, but he played his guts out this series and impressed the hell out of me. Outside of the 3rd quarter in Game 2, Philly never quit even when it would have been easy to do so.
He was asked to do an insane amount in this series, and a more balanced team would be able to save him from so much banging on offense, which would leave him with more energy on defense. Rudy Gobert and Nikola Jokic aren’t asked to fight for post position every time down for 35-40 minutes.
The Sixers offensive gameplan in Game 4 was better in this regard, but their personnel sucks and it was too little, too late. I thought he did a good job both asking Brett Brown for more responsibility on defense, and then putting in the effort to get up to touch on screens.
I still would trade him over Simmons, because I think Simmons is a freaking stud and perfect for the modern game. But there will absolutely be GMs willing to go all-in on Embiid, and I don't think they're dumb to do so.
I think PHI had a perfectly good roster construction last year in Embiid, Simmons, Butler, and Reddick. Butler solved a lot of problems for them, particularly at the end of games given that giving the ball to Embiid or Simmons is problematic. But for some reason, one or more of Embiid, Simmons, and/or Brown couldn't live with Butler, even though he gave them the best chance to win.The roster construction issue with the "Simmons+Embiid+shooting" blueprint is what we saw two years ago when they did just that, and Brad Stevens hunted the likes of Redick and Ilyasova and Belinelli on offense (while sagging off of Simmons on defense). It's not just surrounding them with shooting, it's surrounding them with shooters who can hold their own on defense, and those 3&D guys are expensive and hard to find. It's possible to hide one subpar defender if their offensive justifies it, as the Celtics have done with Kyrie/Kemba (and even Isaiah for a bit, though that was far tougher), but when you need several on the floor at a given time, your GM needs to be both lucky and good to collect the right pieces that don't create a target rich environment for a competent pick and roll offense to feast on in the playoffs when teams have time to really game plan.
Agreed on both counts. Butler really took them to another level last year and they missed him a great deal this year, but they're not making any major moves for at least a year with another coach in charge next season.I think PHI had a perfectly good roster construction last year in Embiid, Simmons, Butler, and Reddick. Butler solved a lot of problems for them, particularly at the end of games given that giving the ball to Embiid or Simmons is problematic. But for some reason, one or more of Embiid, Simmons, and/or Brown couldn't live with Butler, even though he gave them the best chance to win.
My guess is that the Sixers run this back again using Simmons as an excuse and the fact that they are not going to be able to get anywhere near value for either Embiid or Simmons. Plus, it's not out the realm of possibility that either or both of Embiid and Simmons improve, particularly if they happen to hire a good coach.
Yeah, there’s no way that Wiseman gets Philly to surrender Embiid and eat an albatross contract. You’d need to add the Minnesota first to it to get close.The more I think about it, the more I think Embiid to GS (for Wiggins and Wiseman) is a thing that might well happen. Seems far more logical from the perspective of both sides than Simmons to GS, much as I love to fantasize about Ben running with the Splash Bros. Steph and Joel are buddies; and Wiseman gives Philly a younger, fitter, faster, less disgruntled version of Embiid who could develop as Horford’s understudy over the next couple seasons. Obviously he’s miles from Embiid skill-wise right now, but his timeline still fits well with Simmons, who just turned 24.
As others have noted, Simmons-Richardson-Wiggins-Harris-Horford at least makes some structural sense, as both Harris and Horford get to play their more natural positions. Having a 6-10 PG with Wiseman on the bench mitigates any concerns about size.
Deal leaves GS with massive hole at the wing and backup PG, but that’s a topic for another thread. (One option: Minny 2021 + TPE for Kelly Oubre; and Trey Burke with the MLE).
You're missing a "NOT" in that sentence somewhere.Doris mentioned (and I assume she's correct on this) is that Embiid is at the top of post players in points per possession when he is doubled-teamed but drops way down when he is double-teamed.
Thanks. Shouldn't post before morning Mimosa. I meant to say (and corrected above in case anyone cares): "Doris mentioned (and I assume she's correct on this) is that Embiid is at the top of post players in points per possession when he is NOT doubled-teamed but drops way down when he is double-teamed."You're missing a "NOT" in that sentence somewhere.
Kemba+ for Embiid package lmao. Run the East for forever. (ya I know it’s not happening)Isnt this a damned if you do situation?
Sure Embiid is the guy to Trade......but he he cant be a centerpiece in todays NBA due to his conditioning and Defense.
We cant then say....."SO when Philly gets a HAUL for him...."
Basically your trading Embiid because he is not Great (good not great) in todays NBA and you cant build around him. So why do we think an NBA team would trade "quality players" for him? I guess it only takes one. But when you look at the Philly team this year and how it under performed expectations I dont see how you any GM can trade good "outside shooting wings" (which you need with Simmons) FOR Embiid when thats exactly what you need to have WITH Embiid.
I mean the Celts might be able to... (Hayward, Langford and the 14?) But why would we do that!!! lol
Who else has wings galore to trade and still have enough around Embiid?
Now if you trade Simmons, which from a strict talent aspect is silly, your roster construction is ironically easier. With more outside shooting Embiid becomes valuable. You simply cant get enough good shooting back for Embiid to build around Simmons.
But you might be able to get enough outside shooting back to build around Embiid.
And even if you get something close you have Horfords salary screwing you for the next 2 years.
Agreed-- Simmons on defense is made for today's NBA -- rangy, can switch, closes out on shooters, rotates. His ability to be a stopper can carry his terrible shot --and there's still a chance he develops enough of a shot to force folks to guard him, a la Jason Kidd.Yeah, I definitely keep Simmons over Embiid, and I don't think the decision is super-close. Simmons could be DPOY while playing the most important position in basketball (big athletic wing who can switch 1-5). He matches up the best against the Celtics, who are the future of the East. Embiid also likely gets you a big haul from someone.
It's impossible to compare Simmons' inability to shoot to other poor shooting point guards. By his 4th game in the NBA, Jason Kidd had hit more career 3 pointers than Simmons has in over 200 games. Kidd shot nearly 70% from the line as a rookie, while Simmons shot 62% this season, 4 years after being drafted. There really isn't a historical guard to compare Simmons to as a shooter, his only hope are big men comps who no one ever told to shoot 3s until recently (Horford, Marc Gasol, Brook Lopez). Even those guys aren't fair comps, as they were all good decent FT shooters (70%+ their entire careers) and had a decent midrange game.Agreed-- Simmons on defense is made for today's NBA -- rangy, can switch, closes out on shooters, rotates. His ability to be a stopper can carry his terrible shot --and there's still a chance he develops enough of a shot to force folks to guard him, a la Jason Kidd.
Yeah, I'm in the Simmons>Embiid camp, but there really is no parallel to Simmons' outside shooting issues. It is not merely that Simmons is a bad outside shooter, it is that he has some sort of mental block that prevents him from shooting the basketball outside of ten feet. It is a bizarre situation that has never been addressed, since everyone seems to agree that Simmons would be a much better player and Philadelphia a much better team, if he just occasionally took an outside shot. 94% of his FGA this season came within ten feet of the basket. He won't even take a wide open elbow jumper.It's impossible to compare Simmons' inability to shoot to other poor shooting point guards. By his 4th game in the NBA, Jason Kidd had hit more career 3 pointers than Simmons has in over 200 games. Kidd shot nearly 70% from the line as a rookie, while Simmons shot 62% this season, 4 years after being drafted. There really isn't a historical guard to compare Simmons to as a shooter, his only hope are big men comps who no one ever told to shoot 3s until recently (Horford, Marc Gasol, Brook Lopez). Even those guys aren't fair comps, as they were all good decent FT shooters (70%+ their entire careers) and had a decent midrange game.
Jason Kidd turned into a pretty strong shooter: 1.7 3pm on .369 shooting and .795 from the line over his last 9 seasons. There is absolutely no chance Simmons approaches those numbers considering what he's done so far.
It certainly would be pretty ironic if Fultz fixes his shooting woes, which he seems to be doing, but Simmons never does.Yeah, I'm in the Simmons>Embiid camp, but there really is no parallel to Simmons' outside shooting issues. It is not merely that Simmons is a bad outside shooter, it is that he has some sort of mental block that prevents him from shooting the basketball outside of ten feet. It is a bizarre situation that has never been addressed, since everyone seems to agree that Simmons would be a much better player and Philadelphia a much better team, if he just occasionally took an outside shot. 94% of his FGA this season came within ten feet of the basket. He won't even take a wide open elbow jumper.
This isn’t because they lost to the Celtics. There’s real problems there that extend beyond Brown. They’re a misshapen expensive team.Harsh. No Simmons against a good team and generally pretty competitive.
None of which is Brown’s fault. So, this really does nothing to solve their issues.This isn’t because they lost to the Celtics. There’s real problems there that extend beyond Brown. They’re a misshapen expensive team.
Rondo is the comp. His last five seasons were in the "you have to cover the open 3" ballpark, and his career FT is 61%.It's impossible to compare Simmons' inability to shoot to other poor shooting point guards. By his 4th game in the NBA, Jason Kidd had hit more career 3 pointers than Simmons has in over 200 games. Kidd shot nearly 70% from the line as a rookie, while Simmons shot 62% this season, 4 years after being drafted. There really isn't a historical guard to compare Simmons to as a shooter, his only hope are big men comps who no one ever told to shoot 3s until recently (Horford, Marc Gasol, Brook Lopez). Even those guys aren't fair comps, as they were all good decent FT shooters (70%+ their entire careers) and had a decent midrange game.
Jason Kidd turned into a pretty strong shooter: 1.7 3pm on .369 shooting and .795 from the line over his last 9 seasons. There is absolutely no chance Simmons approaches those numbers considering what he's done so far.
Don't know if you saw the excerpt from the Redick pod that Ben Hogan posted here again last week but the conversation between JJ and Jimmy Butler was pretty damning on Brown. In short, they deemed him nothing more than an empty suit...er, untucked shirt.None of which is Brown’s fault. So, this really does nothing to solve their issues.
Butler was not cheap to acquire and pretty much indicated he left because of BB.None of which is Brown’s fault. So, this really does nothing to solve their issues.