Mark Cuban vs The World: Whose side are you on?

Whose side are you on?

  • Team Cuban, he's right the officiating sucks generally, sucked that night, & he should get a replay

    Votes: 26 56.5%

  • Team Cuban, they should uphold his protest, but punish him personally for acting out

    Votes: 5 10.9%

  • Team Refs, they got the call right, enough with the sour grapes. Let Cuban off the hook though.

    Votes: 9 19.6%

  • Team Refs, it was a reasonable decision. Throw the book at Cuban for his antics.

    Votes: 6 13.0%
  • Total voters
    46
InstaFace

InstaFace

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Let's make this a poll!

So, Mark Cuban has filed an official protest over this end-of-game play. There's layers to this, we'll get to them.

With ~10 seconds remaining and Atlanta leading by 2, Trae Young makes a layup attempt that gets blocked. As John Collins goes up for the rebound (which he stuffs home), ref Rodney Mott blows his whistle for goaltending, awarding the basket.

View: https://twitter.com/tenitrabatiste/status/1231414426886123520

View: https://twitter.com/fishsports/status/1231731728340914177


The refs review the goaltending call (for fucking ever) and determine that it was, in fact, a good block, and not goaltending. HOWEVER, because Collins was "already in his shooting motion" when the whistle blew, it was ruled an "inadvertent whistle" and they counted Collins' basket. Hawks now up 4 and win.

Mark Cuban contends that the teams stopped playing once they heard the call, so it's unfair to count the basket:

"So they call a goaltend," Cuban wrote on Twitter. "They literally blew the whistle that it was a goaltend. There was a putback after the whistle. After review they said no goaltend but count the basket? WTF is that? That's NBA officiating."

In a follow-up tweet, Cuban said: "1 of the refs told us it was an inadvertent whistle, so it was not goaltending. Doesn't matter that people stopped. They thought the whistle came after the putback. So the basket counted. So what where they reviewing if it wasn't a goaltend?"
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(full tweetstorm captured here)

Instead, he says, the right thing to do is to replay the game with a jump ball with 9.7 seconds remaining and Atlanta leading by 2.

Hood's postgame explanation of the call was:

"The ball hit the rim, so it was deemed an inadvertent whistle. It’s Rule 2. Because (Collins) was in his shooting motion when my whistle blew, it’s deemed continuation, so therefore the basket counts."

Protests are filed periodically - Houston filed one earlier this season after a double-OT loss when Harden dunked the ball so hard the refs weren't sure it went through. That protest was denied. The last one to be upheld and a replay ordered was when Shaq was erroneously ruled to have fouled out back in 2007-08, 12 years ago.

But wait, there's more! Cuban went on the court twice during dead ball time to yell at people. He also compared the NBA's management abilities unfavorably to Dairy Queen. His postgame comments were captured in full here, but holy shit does he rip them a new one, this is vintage Cuban. He talked about the game but then generalized to the NBA's general ability to have a consistent training and management system that focuses on quality when it comes to refs. Snippets:

It goes back, like I just tweeted, you’ve got Ronnie Nunn, who . . . only hired people from the Ohio Valley Conference or wherever his buddies worked at. Including a former Rucker League ref who lasted only a year. And so we’re paying the price that his hiring and training was so bad that we don’t have any good refs.

And so then we went to Don Vaden, who was here two or three years. Then you went to Bob Delaney, who wanted you to go take these vitamins and go to these brain doctors and kind of forced the refs to try to do that [expletive], so we have lots of former police officers. And so out of a million refs around the world, we have this incestuous group of refs that we’ve hired, literally brothers, spouses. I don’t know which came first, the hiring or the spousing. But same high school, same cities, and then when it comes to training we sign Joey and Bennett and Wunderlich, all these guys who were former refs and go around and, according to refs I’ve talked to, spent minimal time doing video training with them.

Pop in, pop out. But that’s not really the problem. Because we’ve had such poor training, when some of the older refs retired, the ones that come and take their place are not ready. And why are they not ready? Because we had one guy running all the G-League training, George Tolliver, I think that’s who it is. One guy running all the G-League training and very little support.

So by the time they get here, if they’re not good enough already, you ain’t all of a sudden going to make them better. And I’ve said that to the league a dozen times. They said, ‘We’re going to work on it, we’re going to work on it, they’re going to work on it, we’re improving it.’ Yet, instead of having people who know how to train and develop refs, that are professional trainers, that learn from refs on mechanics and everything of what they want, we get Joey Crawford, who gets dressed up. Bennett Savatore, who gets dressed up...
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The league say it is withholding judgment on any discipline for Cuban himself (for the on-court stuff and the twitter badmouthing and the postgame rant) until the ruling on the protest is made, but any serious NBA fan can be sympathetic to complaints about the consistency of officiating. Plus, as obnoxious as Cuban can be, this is one of those moments where he's just a passionate owner, acting as the fans imagine they would if they owned a team - his visible passion is probably a net positive for the league and for the Mavs. They threw the book at him over the sexual-harassment stuff ($10M to charity is no joke even to Cuban), but have let a lot of courtside stuff and social-media stuff slide.

Where do you stand?
 
Mooch

Mooch

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I dunno. It sure looked like Collins was getting that rebound/putback regardless of the whistle.
 
bankshot1

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I can't hear when the whistle blew, but Collins had an uncontested put-back no mstter what. Count the basket on a variation of "continuation"

Cuban is right about NBA reffing sucking but he's wrong that its been for 20 years, its been forever.

Team refs, fine Cuban a modest amount.

Edit: this play was almost exactly like the Howard non goal-tend yesterday, but the Celts got dicked on the non-call and the put-back basket.
 
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lovegtm

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It feels really weird to throw this much of a temper tantrum over a play that the refs basically got right in terms of outcome.

The NBA has ref issues, but they're not super related to these kind of snap judgement calls.
 
joe dokes

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InstaFace said:
The league say it is withholding judgment on any discipline for Cuban himself (for the on-court stuff and the twitter badmouthing and the postgame rant) until the ruling on the protest is made, but any serious NBA fan can be sympathetic to complaints about the consistency of officiating. Plus, as obnoxious as Cuban can be, this is one of those moments where he's just a passionate owner, acting as the fans imagine they would if they owned a team - his visible passion is probably a net positive for the league and for the Mavs. They threw the book at him over the sexual-harassment stuff ($10M to charity is no joke even to Cuban), but have let a lot of courtside stuff and social-media stuff slide.

Where do you stand?
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Cuban is substantively correct about the "why's" of the poor officiating, and it's to his credit that he didn't just complain, he sort of offered solutions (or at least ID'd the problem.) BUT, the caustic way he did it, and especially naming names the way he did (including peoplke who, if I understood him, aren't even in the league anymore), along with his recidivism should lead to a 7-figure fine. he should also get hit for going on the court. Can the league make him sit on the proverbial 9th floor for all games?
 
Tony C

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lovegtm said:
It feels really weird to throw this much of a temper tantrum over a play that the refs basically got right in terms of outcome.

The NBA has ref issues, but they're not super related to these kind of snap judgement calls.
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Yep. Incredibly tough game to ref, no problem being pissed at obvious misses, but this is "right" or close to it. This is just more of Cuban being a spoiled rich frat boy.
joe dokes said:
... Can the league make him sit on the proverbial 9th floor for all games?
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now that would be the ideal punishment. For an attention queen like Cuban, it'd truly be the worst punishment to not have his face on camera all the time.
 
HomeRunBaker

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I love Cuban. I love most everything Cuban.

Having said that, him bitching about this particular play makes me think he's a reg in our game threads. There is a time and a place to voice your displeasure with officials......New Orleans Saints, every right in the world. Any baseball manager who has had the pleasure of experiencing an Angel Hernandez strike zone, absolutely! An uncontested putback that at worst was in the players hand when the whistle blew? Just stop now.
 
edoug

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lovegtm said:
It feels really weird to throw this much of a temper tantrum over a play that the refs basically got right in terms of outcome.

The NBA has ref issues, but they're not super related to these kind of snap judgement calls.
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This
 
PedroKsBambino

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He's right about the poor state of officiating, but that is not the right call on which to engage the battle. The outcome was "fair" here as several have noted since Collins was going to get the rebound regardless almost certainly, and the process was also a good one (with official huddle, video review, discussion, etc.) Whether or not I think it was the 'right' call on a complex rules application if both fairness and process are correct it's tough to get too upset.

Think about the alternative outcome here: if you take the points off and have a jump ball isn't that penalizing Atlanta quite heavily for a blown call?

This is not a case (like the Harden one was) where the outcome was obviously wrong and unfair and the question is about level of deference or anything like that.
 
benhogan

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Cuban original member of the Ref Whine Brigade, along with card-carrying members: Bron, Harden, D'Antoni, CP3 etc

Collins gets that put back no matter what. Nothingburger.

What I would like to see fixed/altered with refs:
1. More technical fouls called early.
I want the refs to start T-ing up players/coaches early/often in games to stop the incessant complaining/acting on the floor. A tone needs to be set, it's out of control IMHO.
2. More $$$ spent on technology/more HD cameras.
NBA needs to up their tech spend so Secaucus can make decisive replay calls within 2 minutes.

While I understand players, coaches, owners, fans getting upset, calls seem to even out. Refs have a hard enough job without everyone getting in their face screaming. Aid them with more/better/faster technology to help the cause.
 
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Mueller's Twin Grannies

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He makes a very good point and has a very thorough explanation, but the call was not that egregious and other teams, including the one in Boston that just got played in LA, have had far worse calls directly affect the outcome of games and for that reason, I'm out.
 
RetractableRoof

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Mueller's Twin Grannies said:
He makes a very good point and has a very thorough explanation, but the call was not that egregious and other teams, including the one in Boston that just got played in LA, have had far worse calls directly affect the outcome of games and for that reason, I'm out.
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But if another owner wants to split the NBA fine, and go in on it together, we might be able to work something out.

But you have to decide right now, and if you talk to anyone else, the offer is off the table.
 
Lazy vs Crazy

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benhogan said:
2. More $$$ spent on technology/more HD cameras.
NBA needs to up their tech spend so Secaucus can make decisive replay calls within 2 minutes.

While I understand players, coaches, owners, fans getting upset, calls seem to even out. Refs have a hard enough job without everyone getting in their face screaming. Aid them with more/better/faster technology to help the cause.
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This is the biggest thing they can do. Take replay out of their hands on the floor. Have the call made at HQ.
 
sezwho

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Lazy vs Crazy said:
This is the biggest thing they can do. Take replay out of their hands on the floor. Have the call made at HQ.
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...and add to the camera infrastructure, as suggested above, to enable them.

Apparently you can’t just buy a supply of NBA ready refs, so maybe you can better centralize decision making for the handful of (presumably) good ones.

I think Cuban is way out over his skis in this case though, which is too bad because the larger point seems valid.
 
mauf

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Officials are human. They will occasionally make mistakes. When we say the NBA has an officiating problem, that’s not what we're talking about. The problems are deferential treatment of superstars, tolerance for a level of disrespect from players that wouldn’t be tolerated in any sport (even soccer), and a lack of efforts to hold below-average officials accountable. I think the league has made some progress on the final point since the Donaghy scandal, but reasonable opinion differs. But none of that has anything to do with a missed goaltending call that wasn’t outcome-determinative.

Officials have to put up with being harangued by players and coaches during the game, when passions are high, but tirades after the game are out-of-bounds under league rules. Cuban is subject to those rules and should be fined as a repeat offender.
 
lars10

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mauf said:
Officials are human. They will occasionally make mistakes. When we say the NBA has an officiating problem, that’s not what we're talking about. The problems are deferential treatment of superstars, tolerance for a level of disrespect from players that wouldn’t be tolerated in any sport (even soccer), and a lack of efforts to hold below-average officials accountable. I think the league has made some progress on the final point since the Donaghy scandal, but reasonable opinion differs. But none of that has anything to do with a missed goaltending call that wasn’t outcome-determinative.

Officials have to put up with being harangued by players and coaches during the game, when passions are high, but tirades after the game are out-of-bounds under league rules. Cuban is subject to those rules and should be fined as a repeat offender.
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The fact that Marc Davis and Scott Foster are still employed are reason enough for me to think that the NBA isn't interested in changing. That I know their names is also part of the problem.

You need to have a league where teams like Houston aren't going to the line 30-40+ times a night. Harden creates contact, but it's not that much different than other players, but it's called 90%? more often? (Like you said the deferential treatment of superstars is a problem...but it's been that way for decades as well.) The pace of the game with all of the calls makes for an unwatchable product. They say baseball is slow, but some of these NBA games go on forever...especially when games are tight in the fourth quarter.

I think the most important thing..or two things are: 1. Refs need to remain consistent throughout the game.. the lack of consistency is a problem.. especially when one team is clearly favored over another in terms of amount of contact, etc and 2. Refs need to be able to check their egos at the door.. doesn't matter that they're getting yelled at (call a T), but they're not the show..and for a while now they've been too much of the focus.
 
the moops

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lars10 said:
You need to have a league where teams like Houston aren't going to the line 30-40+ times a night. Harden creates contact, but it's not that much different than other players, but it's called 90%? more often?
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It is different though. Hardens ability to create contact coupled with his step back is what makes him a superstar.
 
benhogan

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sezwho said:
...and add to the camera infrastructure, as suggested above, to enable them.

Apparently you can’t just buy a supply of NBA ready refs, so maybe you can better centralize decision making for the handful of (presumably) good ones.

I think Cuban is way out over his skis in this case though, which is too bad because the larger point seems valid.
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For decades Tennis had an "obnoxious player" problem. The stars (Mac, Conners, Nastase from the 70s) would constantly scream/belittle/harangue officials. Once they installed Hawk-Eye camera system ~10 years ago it made questionable calls enjoyable for fans as they clap/cheer for replay on the big screen. Its been a major success IMO.

All major sports deal with refs, just surprised they can't find the technology that is quick/efficient to get some basic calls (out of bounds, shot clock, goaltending, etc) correct within seconds.

Having dudes couped up in a room staring at screens in Secaucus NJ is laughable, it feels like the NBA is trying their best to slow down progress here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawk-Eye
Hawk-Eye is currently developing a technology called 'Hawk-Eye Live', which will use the 10 cameras to call shots in or out in real time, with an 'out' call being signified by a speaker emitting an 'out' sound that emulates a human line judge. The technology is currently in trials and is expected to be in place for the 2019 US Open.
 
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lars10

lars10

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the moops said:
It is different though. Hardens ability to create contact coupled with his step back is what makes him a superstar.
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My main problem is the step back three where he then jumps forward.. literally no way to defend it in today's NBA the way it's called. He also gets calls for every minimal contact.. so maybe he draws more contact but he also gets calls for the times when he may have got hit to little contact as well.
 
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