Sox talking Mookie trade with Dodgers, Padres - News & Discussion
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Amen. They've been incredible.
We survived, Valentine, we can survive Slappy. I'd actually rather enjoy watching people's heads explode.
Yeah, it’s not 1960 anymore. Sports teams are a combination of profit and devotion to fans. Henry does a damn good job of straddling that line.
Why does he ‘need’ to make more money? He didn’t buy the park (and dump millions into it) and the team because he’s a Sox fan. Nor the soccer team he owns. It’s an investment. One he’s poured a shit ton of money into and wok four titles since he bought it.
And again, it’s not just about money. Betts is going to market one way or the other unless they do something stupid. Henry’s job is to make sure they don’t do stupid shit and one could argue they’ve already allowed some stupid contracts. Plenty, in fact.
I’m inclined to think that if a version of this were really on the table - let's say Gray/Ruiz/Downs for argument's sake - Bloom would've taken it by now.
Yeah, of course, Gammons is barely in touch with reality as is too often the case these days (sorry Peter, you were the best back in the day).
I don’t understand why some posters view Henry as greedy but simultaneously think it’s understandable that Mookie would turn down $300MM+ so he could have a shot to make $400MM+ via free agency.
I don’t begrudge either one of them for doing what’s in his or his team’s best interests, but be consistent. In both cases it’s more money than one could ever spend.
Above all, I just don’t get the bitching about Henry. He’s not perfect, but he’s been a fantastic owner. Sox have consistently had extremely high payrolls, so much so I think it’s invited sloppiness by our GMs from time to time.
I don’t begrudge either one of them for doing what’s in his or his team’s best interests, but be consistent. In both cases it’s more money than one could ever spend.
Above all, I just don’t get the bitching about Henry. He’s not perfect, but he’s been a fantastic owner. Sox have consistently had extremely high payrolls, so much so I think it’s invited sloppiness by our GMs from time to time.
That "sloppiness" has been with the approval of, and at times the urging of, the ownership.
After living from the 60’s to the 90’s, I’m extremely grateful to this ownership for managing the Sox as a powerful franchise. If we should wait a few years for another championship, it’s OK for me. Giving Betts all the money he will demand could derail things.
I'm not sure if this is the guy you were referring to but Mike Bodick was traded by Baltimore to the Mets at the 2000 trade deadline. The Mets needed a shortstop after Rey Ordonez was injured. The Os got Melvin Mora in return who was fairly useful for a few years. Burdick then immediately went back to the Os during free agency in the winter of 2000.
Before the 2019 season, the Red Sox were valued at $3.2 billion, which represented a 742% increase over the $380 million purchase price paid by John Henry and his partners in 2002.
Why @nattysez do you keep on bringing up the Lester contract? The two situations could not be more different. In this case, the Red Sox continue to try to make fair offers to Mookie. He refuses them which is his right. The Red Sox did not make a fair offer to Jon Lester which caused him to be upset. So far, Mookie is not upset with the Red Sox just determined to reach free agency. If the Red Sox had made a fair offer to Lester, he might have re signed. Apples and oranges situations
Which ignores the debt they assumed and the ballpark, which is part of current valuation. They paid $700M.
On the subject of Mookie suitors, the Mets still have a super odd surplus throughout the ML roster.
OF: Conforto, Nimmo, Davis, Cespedes, Marisnick, McNeil
2B/3B: McNeil, Cano, Lowrie, Davis, (Nuñez)
SP: DeGrom, Syndergaard, Matz, Stroman, Porcello, Wacha, (Lugo)
To me, J.D. Davis is just screaming to be wriggled out from that mess. He was a monster at the plate last year, to little fanfare, and has no real position besides first, where he’s blocked by the rookie of the year. Dominic Smith has been discussed plenty on this board, but I think he’s forgettable. Davis on the other hand would make a hell of a first baseman for us until Casas is ready, and could slide into JDM’s DH spot when he goes.
To expand (and wishcast) it out a bit, Betts, Workman and Jarren Duran (who we can sell them as a Jarred Kelenic replacement) for Syndergaard, Davis and Familia is fair, and would shave $11m off the 2020 payroll. It wouldn’t be the prospect haul many of us are looking for, but Syndergaard seems a lot more likely than Betts to sign an extension here, be a solid counter to Gerrit Cole, and signal that the team intends to compete in 2020.
OF: Conforto, Nimmo, Davis, Cespedes, Marisnick, McNeil
2B/3B: McNeil, Cano, Lowrie, Davis, (Nuñez)
SP: DeGrom, Syndergaard, Matz, Stroman, Porcello, Wacha, (Lugo)
To me, J.D. Davis is just screaming to be wriggled out from that mess. He was a monster at the plate last year, to little fanfare, and has no real position besides first, where he’s blocked by the rookie of the year. Dominic Smith has been discussed plenty on this board, but I think he’s forgettable. Davis on the other hand would make a hell of a first baseman for us until Casas is ready, and could slide into JDM’s DH spot when he goes.
To expand (and wishcast) it out a bit, Betts, Workman and Jarren Duran (who we can sell them as a Jarred Kelenic replacement) for Syndergaard, Davis and Familia is fair, and would shave $11m off the 2020 payroll. It wouldn’t be the prospect haul many of us are looking for, but Syndergaard seems a lot more likely than Betts to sign an extension here, be a solid counter to Gerrit Cole, and signal that the team intends to compete in 2020.
another idea ask bettis agents where does he want to go betts to LA couild work or Wash because if u can't beat the yankees why not help the team that couild assuming the yankees are the AL Fav a Mookie trade to LA or Wash couild stop the yankees from winning it all
Yeah, I will say as someone with many Mets fan friends, that they'd love to have Henry as an owner. I just don't have much sympathy for someone not reinvesting in a team that has made him so much (even if it goes both ways with us admittedly having a lot of success with him at the helm).
Still, if someone is going to pay Betts $350-400m, they must think he's worth it. And unless it's the LAD or NYY, no team has a bigger payroll to do it with. So I'm not sure I buy any excuse about the team being better without signing Betts. I don't find any player selfish either for getting their market rate, especially since the MLBPA largely ensures that.
So this today as well: https://blogs.fangraphs.com/the-red-sox-shouldnt-trade-mookie-betts/, so it's not even that obvious it's worth trading him. Win totals seem optimistic for the Sox, but it's not crazy to think this team has a run in them...
Still, if someone is going to pay Betts $350-400m, they must think he's worth it. And unless it's the LAD or NYY, no team has a bigger payroll to do it with. So I'm not sure I buy any excuse about the team being better without signing Betts. I don't find any player selfish either for getting their market rate, especially since the MLBPA largely ensures that.
So this today as well: https://blogs.fangraphs.com/the-red-sox-shouldnt-trade-mookie-betts/, so it's not even that obvious it's worth trading him. Win totals seem optimistic for the Sox, but it's not crazy to think this team has a run in them...
But, it's not a one-off just signing Betts. What happens when Devers is looking to be paid and he's sitting next to a dude with a $400 million contract? How does Xander feel about his deal?
And, yes, I get that if any team signs Mookie to that kind of contract, it'll have an effect on the overall market for all players. But, I'd imagine there's a more direct effect on your own homegrown players when they see one of them cash in over the top like that.
It's like being a kid and telling your parents that Johnny's let him see R-rated movies. It's one thing to say this-or-that team or owner splurges but we hold the line. It's another to start making exceptions on your own roster then asking others to be more reasonable.
Yep, hard to argue that an owner who's team payroll is consistently at or near the top of the league doesn't reinvest in his team. Also consider the luxury tax paid because of that and the money that has been sunk into ballpark renovations.
Based on everything that Betts and his camp have said so far, he seems intent on getting to free agency. He wants all 30 teams bidding on him. I don’t believe that getting a list of preferred teams from his agent (even if he would provide one) would help improve the prospect package that the Red Sox would receive because the Betts camp would probably make it very clear that he’s going to free agency, and all 30 teams have a shot.
He could even end up back in Boston if they gave him the most money (hypothetically obviously given the teams CBT situation).
This is a strange counterargument since the Sox are the 3rd biggest market with the 2nd most revenue/fan (https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikeozanian/2019/04/10/baseball-team-values-2019-yankees-lead-league-at-46-billion/#316883469b2e) so of course they're consistently at or near the top. Unless we know how well any of these top teams balance their books I don't see any obvious reason Henry is better (or worse) than the other top-5 owners. He might have a 0.0 VORO!
Anyway I appreciate the discussion, even if I'm obviously more 'eat the rich' than y'all
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*Yes, I realize Mookie would become rich, but at least we know his VORP
Anyway I appreciate the discussion, even if I'm obviously more 'eat the rich' than y'all
**Yes, I realize Mookie would become rich, but at least we know his VORP
It's nothing to do with being pro or anti eat the rich. We're far from being (fill in the blank) who is satisfied to turn a nice profit while NOT reinvesting in their teams. If you think the current ownership group should spend more money that's an argument you can make. If you think they haven't invested wisely recently and are trying to reset then sure, i'll listen. But accusing them of not reinvesting in the team doesn't cut it. .This is a strange counterargument since the Sox are the 3rd biggest market with the 2nd most revenue/fan (https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikeozanian/2019/04/10/baseball-team-values-2019-yankees-lead-league-at-46-billion/#316883469b2e) so of course they're consistently at or near the top. Unless we know how well any of these top teams balance their books I don't see any obvious reason Henry is better (or worse) than the other top-5 owners. He might have a 0.0 VORO!
Anyway I appreciate the discussion, even if I'm obviously more 'eat the rich' than y'all
*Yes, I realize Mookie would become rich, but at least we know his VORP
actions always speak louder than words.
throughout this month as trade rumors calmed down, Henry walked back some of his comments, and the Cora blow-up happened, it seemed like they would stand pat. But now with ST 3 weeks away, they are shopping Betts again, and I think he'll be traded pretty soon.
I may be getting sucked up by a [media] smokescreen here, but that's my read
throughout this month as trade rumors calmed down, Henry walked back some of his comments, and the Cora blow-up happened, it seemed like they would stand pat. But now with ST 3 weeks away, they are shopping Betts again, and I think he'll be traded pretty soon.
I may be getting sucked up by a [media] smokescreen here, but that's my read
Well certainly if they're going to trade Betts, a bidding war is what we want in order to maximize the possible return. I still hate the idea but, if it's inevitable, may as well get it over with with the best return they can.
I suspect the Padres fold quickly. They are not in LA's class, even with Mookie. They'd be better off saving their powder.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, overestimate Preller at your own peril. He has a lot of ammo. limited competence, and a fan base that wants a splash.
Music to my ears. The Dodgers are outraged at having two WS "stolen" from them and are therefore really motivated. If Preller is too, this could work out.
Still not happy about moving Mookie, but...
Right. But the Dodgers don’t have to send Myers back and aren’t keeping their top 5 prospects off limits (presumably). Bloom also has a working history with Friedman. If the Dodgers flex their muscles they will win out, or Preller will have to crack and give up someone really valuable.
I think we end up with a better return than most are expecting, especially when you factor in the savings.
I understand that I'm on a sparsely populated island with this, but I'm actually sort of excited by this. I've loved watching Mookie play for the Sox, but I have no interest in paying him $350+ million.
I know that many here have doubted that the Sox could extract real value for him, but I've never been convinced of that. If Bloom can get a good package for him, I'm ready for the next chapter.
I know that many here have doubted that the Sox could extract real value for him, but I've never been convinced of that. If Bloom can get a good package for him, I'm ready for the next chapter.
You're not. I don't want him back at 10/300. No player is worth that commitment and it really hinders roster construction allotting 20% of the salary cap to one player. It's not the NBA.
There is no reason to believe that Preller's initially stated position is anything he'll stick to.
Interesting article by Ken Rosenthal about the pros and cons of trading Betts. Basically it’s keep him and risk not being competitive in future years or trade him, pick up assets, and makes it easier to reset the tax. He thinks they should trade him because of the tax situation.
He also says Arizona has expressed interest.
Rosenthal: Why the Red Sox might trade Mookie Betts
https://theathletic.com/1562219/2020/01/26/rosenthal-why-the-red-sox-might-trade-mookie-betts/?source=shared-article
He also says Arizona has expressed interest.
Rosenthal: Why the Red Sox might trade Mookie Betts
https://theathletic.com/1562219/2020/01/26/rosenthal-why-the-red-sox-might-trade-mookie-betts/?source=shared-article
I’m OK with Myers as a 1B placeholder if San Diego is paying his AAV and Boston can use that money to unload Price for an actual return. Or, alternatively, if the Padres fold and move players at the top of their system to get Boston to eat that $61 million.
Crossing my fingers that getting the Dodgers involved increases the chances Preller would give up someone like Patiño.
Grisham and Verdugo seem like similar assets. Verdugo has a better arm and seems a bit more likely to play right field for us, fwiw.
Edit: Similar players, I should say, but Verdugo’s higher rated and probably a better “asset.”
Grisham and Verdugo seem like similar assets. Verdugo has a better arm and seems a bit more likely to play right field for us, fwiw.
Edit: Similar players, I should say, but Verdugo’s higher rated and probably a better “asset.”
I'd love to land a SP ho is already MLB ready in the deal since the Sox haven't had any lucky developing one. Is Lamet a realistic target if a bidding war happens? I'm guessing Urias and Paddack are off the table.
Did I miss the start of the wishcasting? This is my favorite part of SoSH when the asks become more and more ridiculous.
I don’t even know what a SP ho is, but that sounds AMAZING
I don’t even know what a SP ho is, but that sounds AMAZING
Absolutely. And I would have loved for him to have accepted 8/200 a couple years ago.
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