The Athletic: The Astros stole signs electronically in 2017 part of a much broader issue for Major League Baseball

donutogre

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2005
3,194
Philadelphia
Interested to see if the Red Sox outright fire Cora
That idea had def been floated by some posters here and I felt like it was kind of silly, but I also have to say I feel pretty crappy about this stain being attached to the 2018 championship team. I would not complain if the Sox fired him.

EDIT: Specifically depending on what they announced regarding the 2018 team. If it was limited to his involvement with the Astros, that would be a bit much. But there's too much smoke here for there not to be fire.
 

loshjott

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 30, 2004
14,943
Silver Spring, MD
Wonder why no players will be disciplined, given the "player-driven" description? They're not kids and should be held accountable for their actions.
 

Murderer's Crow

Dragon Wangler 216
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
23,479
Garden City
Wonder why no players will be disciplined, given the "player-driven" description? They're not kids and should be held accountable for their actions.
I think it's because it will be impossible to tell who was an active participant and who felt pressured into it. Also, it is probably safe to assume the entire lineup was cheating.
 

TheDivision

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 21, 2019
1,517
101, 103 and 107 games won by HOU the past three seasons. Let’s see how much this well-deserved punishment and Cole’s loss takes them off their pedestal.
 

JimD

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 29, 2001
8,681
Given his active involvement in the Astros scheme and the Red Sox scheme at minimum happening on his watch, Cora is getting at least a year's suspension also. If he lied to investigators, he'll end up on the ineligible list with Taubman.
 

ifmanis5

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 29, 2007
63,743
Rotten Apple
Wonder why no players will be disciplined, given the "player-driven" description? They're not kids and should be held accountable for their actions.
Especially since in the report it was clear he was not a fan of it. I guess safety in numbers? Harder to suspend every player on the team.
View: https://twitter.com/JeffPassan/status/1216799541200138246

Even though Astros manager AJ Hinch disagreed with the use of video -- going so far as to damage a monitor used in the scheme multiple times to show his disapproval -- he was still suspended for a year.
 

Mugsy's Jock

Eli apologist
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 28, 2000
15,069
UWS, NYC
That's way beyond what I expected... especially the draft picks. This has come a long way since the Sox' slap on the wrist for iWatchgate.

I guess they couldn't really penalize the Astros with cap space, since the players union would have something to say about this.

Not good for Cora, no doubt
 

BoSox Rule

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
2,343
I don’t see what the Red Sox were doing as such a huge deal, and the Astros suspensions are longer than I thought. But while I won’t really agree with it when the hammer comes down on Cora I’ll be shocked if it’s anything less than between 1 year suspension and banned for life.
 

amRadio

New Member
Feb 7, 2019
798
The people calling this a slap on the wrist seem out of touch. This seems like the most severe penalty for sign stealing that I can ever recall. I find it mostly appropriate, I think I predicted multiple draft picks + Lunhow suspended or placed on the ineligible list. AJ Hinch being suspended also seems like too stiff a penalty, but they did cheat in a more impactful manner than any team I've ever seen.

If Cora is suspended similarly to Hinch I feel like that would be far too harsh. The Red Sox scheme wasn't as impactful, it basically falls in line with every other sign stealing controversy going back to the '51 Giants.

That said, I would fire Cora and wash this stain off my hands. If I were John Henry, I would want to immediately cauterize the wound and distance the greatest season in Red Sox history from this stupid mess.
 

Wingack

Yankee Mod
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
34,363
In The Quivering Forest
That's way beyond what I expected... especially the draft picks. This has come a long way since the Sox' slap on the wrist for iWatchgate.

I guess they couldn't really penalize the Astros with cap space, since the players union would have something to say about this.

Not good for Cora, no doubt
My question is if Cora was the person coordinating, if it wasn't Hinch, and it doesn't appear to be.
 

NickEsasky

Please Hammer, Don't Hurt 'Em
Silver Supporter
SoSH Member
Jul 24, 2001
9,190
Sounds like Cora is F'd. Do the Red Sox like him enough to keep him on the team to sit for a year when he's now forced them to have someone else manage this year as well as live with a stain on 2018?
 

loshjott

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 30, 2004
14,943
Silver Spring, MD
The people calling this a slap on the wrist seem out of touch. This seems like the most severe penalty for sign stealing that I can ever recall. I find it mostly appropriate, I think I predicted multiple draft picks + Lunhow suspended or placed on the ineligible list. AJ Hinch being suspended also seems like too stiff a penalty, but they did cheat in a more impactful manner than any team I've ever seen.

If Cora is suspended similarly to Hinch I feel like that would be far too harsh. The Red Sox scheme wasn't as impactful, it basically falls in line with every other sign stealing controversy going back to the '51 Giants.

That said, I would fire Cora and wash this stain off my hands. If I were John Henry, I would want to immediately cauterize the wound and distance the greatest season in Red Sox history from this stupid mess.
Who's calling this a slap on the wrist? Nobody here or what I've read.
 

B H Kim

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Oct 24, 2003
5,719
Washington, DC
After reading the material Jeff Passan has been tweeting, I think Cora is almost certainly going to get a longer suspension than Hinch.
 

amRadio

New Member
Feb 7, 2019
798
Who's calling this a slap on the wrist? Nobody here or what I've read.
Apparently every social media outlet that reports on baseball isn't on your reading list. This is widely being regarded as a slap on the wrist by most fans.
 

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
21,759
Pittsburgh, PA
Penalty for the Astros seems appropriate and thorough enough to be a deterrent. In a just world, there'd be some sort of sanctioning on Jim Crane, but I suppose that's what the $5M is for.

Some discipline for Cora seems appropriate, but as a subordinate he at least has the "I was ordered to do it" defense as a mitigant. If it's anything less than a full year's suspension, he should be grateful and release a statement accepting it ASAP. If I'm the Sox, I don't fire him. (edit: sounds like we could do with a poll thread on that question)
 

Murderer's Crow

Dragon Wangler 216
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
23,479
Garden City
The speculation I'm hearing is weird. Apparently, the Astros stopped in 2018 and 2019 because it became apparent the league wasn't going to let it fly anymore. But apparently Cora said idgaf, disregarded, and kept it going with the Sox. So, he'll get a bigger penalty? I'm not even sure what to think.
 

Al Zarilla

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 8, 2005
58,871
San Andreas Fault
Penalty for the Astros seems appropriate and thorough enough to be a deterrent. In a just world, there'd be some sort of sanctioning on Jim Crane, but I suppose that's what the $5M is for.

Some discipline for Cora seems appropriate, but as a subordinate he at least has the "I was ordered to do it" defense as a mitigant. If it's anything less than a full year's suspension, he should be grateful and release a statement accepting it ASAP. If I'm the Sox, I don't fire him. (edit: sounds like we could do with a poll thread on that question)
That argument didn’t do a lot of the top Nazis any good.
 

singaporesoxfan

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 21, 2004
11,882
Washington, DC
Penalty for the Astros seems appropriate and thorough enough to be a deterrent. In a just world, there'd be some sort of sanctioning on Jim Crane, but I suppose that's what the $5M is for.

Some discipline for Cora seems appropriate, but as a subordinate he at least has the "I was ordered to do it" defense as a mitigant. If it's anything less than a full year's suspension, he should be grateful and release a statement accepting it ASAP. If I'm the Sox, I don't fire him. (edit: sounds like we could do with a poll thread on that question)
He may have been a subordinate on the org chart, but if MLB’s statement is accurate, he was the one who came up with the idea. No one ordered him to do it
 

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
21,759
Pittsburgh, PA
It doesn't get you off the hook, but it's often a factor in deciding punishment amount. Also see: the players who won't get suspended because some of them may have felt pressured into it.

FYI, Passan is quoting from the 9-page release by Manfred. I went and found the original PDF, which is here. Reading it now.
 

Xander Betts Jr.

New Member
Oct 17, 2018
27
Penalty for the Astros seems appropriate and thorough enough to be a deterrent. In a just world, there'd be some sort of sanctioning on Jim Crane, but I suppose that's what the $5M is for.

Some discipline for Cora seems appropriate, but as a subordinate he at least has the "I was ordered to do it" defense as a mitigant. If it's anything less than a full year's suspension, he should be grateful and release a statement accepting it ASAP. If I'm the Sox, I don't fire him. (edit: sounds like we could do with a poll thread on that question)
Apparently Hinch disapproved of the whole scheme, even destroying the dugout adjacent TV, per a Passan tweet above. So this defense is unlikely to fly.
 

TheDivision

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 21, 2019
1,517
Apparently Hinch disapproved of the whole scheme, even destroying the dugout adjacent TV, per a Passan tweet above. So this defense is unlikely to fly.
True, but there's more to it according to the PDF that InstaFace linked:

"However, Hinch admits he did not stop it and he did not notify players or Cora that he disapproved of it."
 

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
21,759
Pittsburgh, PA
Manfred on accountability:
I will not assess discipline against individual Astros players. I made the decision in September 2017 that I would hold a Club’s General Manager and Field Manager accountable for misconduct of this kind, and I will not depart from that decision. Assessing discipline of players for this type of conduct is both difficult and impractical. It is difficult because virtually all of the Astros’ players had some involvement or knowledge of the scheme, and I am not in a position based on the investigative record to determine with any degree of certainty every player who should be held accountable, or their relative degree of culpability. It is impractical given the large number of players involved, and the fact that many of those players now play for other Clubs.

But more importantly, the Club’s General Manager and Field Manager are responsible for ensuring that the players both understand the rules and adhere to them. Our office issues a substantial number of detailed rules and procedures to Clubs – many of which, including the sign stealing rules, are not sent directly to players. It is the obligation of the Club, and, in this case, the General Manager and Field Manager, to educate and instruct their players on the rules governing play on the field. Here, because the Club’s Bench Coach was an active participant in the scheme, and the Club’s Manager was aware of the scheme and did nothing to stop it, I recognize that some players may have understood that their conduct was not only condoned by the Club, but encouraged by it. This was misconduct committed by the team, and with the exception of the individuals whom I will hold personally accountable, my disciplinary action will be directed at the team.
...then he gets right to the individuals assessed penalties.
 

Marciano490

Urological Expert
SoSH Member
Nov 4, 2007
62,312
I don’t get the trash can thing. They’d bang on every pitch and nobody thought it was weird?
 

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
21,759
Pittsburgh, PA
Manfred on Cora explicitly:
Alex Cora (Bench Coach). Cora was involved in developing both the banging scheme and utilizing the replay review room to decode and transmit signs. Cora participated in both schemes, and through his active participation, implicitly condoned the players’ conduct. I will withhold determining the appropriate level of discipline for Cora until after the DOI completes its investigation of the allegations that the Red Sox engaged in impermissible electronic sign stealing in 2018 while Cora was the manager.
He's fucked, just not immediately.
 

uncannymanny

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 12, 2007
9,080
Apparently every social media outlet that reports on baseball isn't on your reading list. This is widely being regarded as a slap on the wrist by most fans.
What is a “social media outlet”? Why is “most fans” on social media representative of, well, anything?
 

loshjott

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 30, 2004
14,943
Silver Spring, MD
Luhnow continues to deny knowledge of the scheme, per the report.

The investigation revealed no evidence to suggest that
Luhnow was aware of the banging scheme. The investigation also revealed that Luhnow
neither devised nor actively directed the efforts of the replay review room staff to decode
signs in 2017 or 2018. Although Luhnow denies having any awareness that his replay
review room staff was decoding and transmitting signs, there is both documentary and
testimonial evidence that indicates Luhnow had some knowledge of those efforts, but he
did not give it much attention.
Luhnow and Hinch being suspended basically for either ignoring or being ineffective in stopping the scheme. Ringleader, per the report, is clearly Cora.
 

amRadio

New Member
Feb 7, 2019
798
What is a “social media outlet”? Why is “most fans” on social media representative of, well, anything?
I don't answer dumb rhetorical questions intended to snark me for a reasonable take based on simply reading the reaction to the penalties. If you think fan opinion of the league doesn't matter, then I guess you're of the opinion that only you and your high horse matter when it comes to MLB. People have opinions. Some will differ from what you find here on SOSH.
 

singaporesoxfan

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 21, 2004
11,882
Washington, DC
Manfred on Cora explicitly:

He's fucked, just not immediately.
Yeah, that's why I was surprised you mentioned the "I was ordered to do it" defense - guess you just hadn't seen the report. Cora comes across as architect of the scheme and the one ordering others to do it
 

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
21,759
Pittsburgh, PA
Yeah, that's why I was surprised you mentioned the "I was ordered to do it" defense - guess you just hadn't seen the report. Cora comes across as architect of the scheme and the one ordering others to do it
Yeah that particular line of argument may be moot because it's clear he wasn't, in fact, ordered to do it - just that he wasn't ordered to stop.

That said, Manfred's quote above makes it clear that he's holding the GM and Manager responsible for the conduct of their subordinates and as a result he may view Cora's conduct as, at worst, co-equal with their lack of institutional control. If there weren't a parallel investigation into the Red Sox from 2018, he might have gotten an identical suspension (likeliest) or perhaps even a shorter one (less likely). As it stands, if it turns out he was anything less than a total boy scout in 2018, he's looking at needing a new career.

At least we can bring back the old sarcastic "Super Genius" jokes.
 

OurF'ingCity

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 22, 2016
8,469
New York City
If I'm the Astros I fire Hinch now - not (just) because of the suspension but because he apparently was so cowed by the players and Cora that he thought the sign-stealing was wrong and yet literally never said anything to anyone about stopping it. That means he is either a totally ineffective, gutless leader or he's a liar who just threw his subordinate under the bus in the hopes of getting a lesser penalty himself. Either way not someone I would want managing my baseball team.
 

djbayko

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
25,895
Los Angeles, CA
I don’t get the trash can thing. They’d bang on every pitch and nobody thought it was weird?
If you’re not looking for it, it probably blends into the overall stadium noise. Also, based on some of the videos we’ve seems, it appears that some pitcher/catcher batteries did pick up on it.
 

Wingack

Yankee Mod
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
34,363
In The Quivering Forest
I don't think 2018 has a stain on it as the video room wasn't available in the postseason.
Yeah, I am not making any accusations about 2018, but we don't know and MLB is investigating. If he wasn't able to do the video room, maybe he cooked something else up. Who knows?

It definitely doesn't look good to have two young, consecutive World Series championship managers, guilty in this thing. And neither of them will probably ever manage again in MLB. That is a stain no matter how you slice it.
 

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
21,759
Pittsburgh, PA
If I'm the Astros I fire Hinch now - not (just) because of the suspension but because he apparently was so cowed by the players and Cora that he thought the sign-stealing was wrong and yet literally never said anything to anyone about stopping it. That means he is either a totally ineffective, gutless leader or he's a liar who just threw his subordinate under the bus in the hopes of getting a lesser penalty himself. Either way not someone I would want managing my baseball team.
Go buy a few lottery tickets, I guess.