Gordon Hayward 2020: I'm standing here in pieces and you're having delusions of grandeur!

DeJesus Built My Hotrod · Dec 22, 2019

I find it funny that people are cooking up trades for the Warriors that net them a star player for D'Angelo Russell plus a pick that may or may not be valuable.

I like D Lo but he is a very flawed player and is about to turn 24. His usage is the highest of his career this season but he is still very feast or famine. His FG% is a touch above his career average however it is fairly low vs a guy who shoots as much as he does. And his shooting from deep has sagged a bit from last year as he has taken more shots. His rebounds and assists have fallen as well. His defense is poor too with the Warriors allowing almost a point more when he is on the floor while the opposing FG% goes up as well when he is not sitting. Some of this is a function on how barren the current Warriors squad is but the reality is, his offensive stats are essentially where they have been for a few years now if not worse.

I am not ready to give up on him yet but NBA GMs are a lot sharper these days and few teams are going to help Bob Myers turn D Lo into another superstar. He can certainly be the centerpiece of a trade but its going to take more than just him and a pick to get most of the names mentioned in this thread.

Finally, people here may be ready to move on from Hayward and I don't doubt Ainge would deal him were the opportunity to upgrade arise. But thus far, we have little indication that he is on the block or will be if he doesn't opt out. The C's have too many wings until one of them goes down and players do get hurt.

nighthob · Dec 22, 2019

I don’t expect Boston to deal Hayward, I expect them to balk at the prospect of giving him a max deal for his age 30-34 seasons. And mostly because of the existing Walker and Brown deals with the Tatum extension looming on the horizon.

lovegtm · Dec 22, 2019

DeJesus Built My Hotrod said:
I find it funny that people are cooking up trades for the Warriors that net them a star player for D'Angelo Russell plus a pick that may or may not be valuable.

I like D Lo but he is a very flawed player and is about to turn 24. His usage is the highest of his career this season but he is still very feast or famine. His FG% is a touch above his career average however it is fairly low vs a guy who shoots as much as he does. And his shooting from deep has sagged a bit from last year as he has taken more shots. His rebounds and assists have fallen as well. His defense is poor too with the Warriors allowing almost a point more when he is on the floor while the opposing FG% goes up as well when he is not sitting. Some of this is a function on how barren the current Warriors squad is but the reality is, his offensive stats are essentially where they have been for a few years now if not worse.

I am not ready to give up on him yet but NBA GMs are a lot sharper these days and few teams are going to help Bob Myers turn D Lo into another superstar. He can certainly be the centerpiece of a trade but its going to take more than just him and a pick to get most of the names mentioned in this thread.

Finally, people here may be ready to move on from Hayward and I don't doubt Ainge would deal him were the opportunity to upgrade arise. But thus far, we have little indication that he is on the block or will be if he doesn't opt out. The C's have too many wings until one of them goes down and players do get hurt.

Yeah, this +100 wrt DLo. Someone has to actually want him for him to be an asset in a deal. Rumors have been that Minnesota does view him as such, but they don’t have much to offer unless Myers thinks he can revitalize Wiggins (KAT isn’t happening).

The real asset is the top 5 pick, whose exact positioning we’ll know at that time. That’s enough to get a very good player, but doesn’t take you to superstar level.

nighthob · Dec 22, 2019

Yeah, the only reason that Minnesota wants Mr. DARcy is that he and KATman are friends. If there’s a scenario where Golden State’s able to use him it’s in the inverse scenario where they got him, they have a FA they want sign and need matching salary to make it happen.

lovegtm · Dec 22, 2019

nighthob said:
Yeah, the only reason that Minnesota wants Mr. DARcy is that he and KATman are friends. If there’s a scenario where Golden State’s able to use him it’s in the inverse scenario where they got him, they have a FA they want sign and need matching salary to make it happen.

I'm not sure that it makes allusive sense (it's hard to imagine a Mr. Darcy whose schtick is texting Jane snarky messages about how Mr. Bingham is banging the help on the estate), but I will do my best to make Mr. DARcy a thing.

Jimbodandy · Dec 22, 2019

DeJesus Built My Hotrod said:
Finally, people here may be ready to move on from Hayward and I don't doubt Ainge would deal him were the opportunity to upgrade arise. But thus far, we have little indication that he is on the block or will be if he doesn't opt out. The C's have too many wings until one of them goes down and players do get hurt.

Yeah, wings in 2019 are like starting pitchers. You can't have too many, just extras.

Sam Ray Not · Dec 22, 2019

It’s DLo, not “DAR,” which makes the Jane Austen references *somewhat* far fetched to me, but who am I to quibble.

I still say the best literary reference involving Warrior guards is when they run out Arthur C. Clarke’s “ultimate head trip” backcourt of Bowman and Poole. It’ll be especially resonant when Silicon Valley’s top operating system decides to cut Poole loose into the cold expanses of space, and when Bowman blows up into a giant star child.

Lazy vs Crazy · Dec 22, 2019

Hayward out again tonight.

lovegtm · Dec 22, 2019

Lazy vs Crazy said:
Hayward out again tonight.

More Romeo to watch; I like it.

amarshal2 · Dec 22, 2019

I legitimately thought Hayward was the best player on the team just before the hand injury. Whatever this is, I hope it isn’t a long term problem. I think people are beginning to forget because they’re playing well without him, but their ceiling is much higher with Hayward playing like he was before. He’s at least even with his replacements on defense and his passing and efficient scoring raising their offensive ceiling and consistency.

lovegtm · Dec 22, 2019

InstaFace said:
This is in the top-5 all time least-expected allusions on this entire (male-dominated) site. What fraction of posters are going to get all that? 10%? Hell I've read the book (forever ago) and don't remember enough to get the wit here.

Well done, I think. I'll take "posts you make at 4:20AM" for $500, Alex.

It was mostly a reference to DLo’s Nick Young drama, but set on an early 19th century British estate.

luckiestman · Dec 22, 2019

InstaFace said:
This is in the top-5 all time least-expected allusions on this entire (male-dominated) site. What fraction of posters are going to get all that? 10%? Hell I've read the book (forever ago) and don't remember enough to get the wit here.

Well done, I think. I'll take "posts you make at 4:20AM" for $500, Alex.

The Russian asset, nighthob, seems to be an educated man. Now I’m sure of it, I hate him.

amarshal2 · Dec 22, 2019

View: https://twitter.com/redsarmy_john/status/1208858763383443456?s=21

Gordon Hayward had a good workout, per Brad Stevens. He is expected to be probable for Christmas

nighthob · Dec 22, 2019

luckiestman said:
The Russian asset, nighthob, seems to be an educated man. Now I’m sure of it, I hate him.

Russian asset? Faugh. I'm a Janeite. (Given that she and Walter Scott are two incredibly important figures in the development of modern narrative style I can't help but be a fan of both.)

NomarsFool · Dec 23, 2019

I have a hard time understanding cap stuff, but it looks like both Portland and Toronto could offer GH a max contract this summer without a S&T.

Cesar Crespo · Dec 23, 2019

NomarsFool said:
I have a hard time understanding cap stuff, but it looks like both Portland and Toronto could offer GH a max contract this summer without a S&T.

If Toronto doesn't, they are extremely close. I don't think Portland does but they could easily get there.

TripleOT · Dec 23, 2019

Cesar Crespo said:
If Toronto doesn't, they are extremely close. I don't think Portland does but they could easily get there.

Phoenix, which has good luck with formerly broken down players, New Orleans, Charlotte(where he signed a RFA deal with previously), ATL, Memphis, the woeful Knicks, and the woeful Cavs all look to also have room to sign him. New Orleans could use a versatile wing, as could the Suns.

nighthob · Dec 23, 2019

NomarsFool said:
I have a hard time understanding cap stuff, but it looks like both Portland and Toronto could offer GH a max contract this summer without a S&T.

They’re both short of the 35% max slot for Hayward. And if he’s willing to sign for less than max then he isn’t going anywhere.

Swedgin · Dec 23, 2019

nighthob said:
They’re both short of the 35% max slot for Hayward. And if he’s willing to sign for less than max then he isn’t going anywhere.

Also it was been widely reported/speculated that Toronto wants to be in a position to have max space (or be able to easily get to max space) in 2021, when Giannis among many other are up.

NomarsFool · Dec 23, 2019

TripleOT said:
Phoenix, which has good luck with formerly broken down players, New Orleans, Charlotte(where he signed a RFA deal with previously), ATL, Memphis, the woeful Knicks, and the woeful Cavs all look to also have room to sign him. New Orleans could use a versatile wing, as could the Suns.

Hard for me to see any of those teams as being attractive. Assuming he's health for the next 1.5 seasons, I assume he'd be as likely to get maxed in 2021 as 2020? There are a lot of big names available in 2021, so it could be a buyer's market, but alot of teams will at least be trying to have cap room.

wade boggs chicken dinner · Dec 23, 2019

If I'm correct, you read it here first but if I'm wrong, just forget I ever said this.

I don't think GH opts out next year.

Obviously, this is a WAG but here's what it is based on.

(1) GH didn't seem to like the whole FA process last time.
(2) At this point, the extra money is just numbers on an account statement.
(3) He's in a great situation and has a great relationship with Brad.
(4) He's not going to go to a crappy team just for the money.
(5) He has more left to prove in BOS.

As my Mom used to say, "We shall see."

nighthob · Dec 23, 2019

NomarsFool said:
Hard for me to see any of those teams as being attractive. Assuming he's health for the next 1.5 seasons, I assume he'd be as likely to get maxed in 2021 as 2020? There are a lot of big names available in 2021, so it could be a buyer's market, but alot of teams will at least be trying to have cap room.

Because he’s eligible for a big raise this year and there’s a contender out in California that can put in a bid on him due to their having 80% of Hayward’s max salary tied up in Mr. DARcy and a random contract from their roster. He’s opting out.

chilidawg · Dec 24, 2019

wade boggs chicken dinner said:
If I'm correct, you read it here first but if I'm wrong, just forget I ever said this.

I don't think GH opts out next year.

Obviously, this is a WAG but here's what it is based on.

(1) GH didn't seem to like the whole FA process last time.
(2) At this point, the extra money is just numbers on an account statement.
(3) He's in a great situation and has a great relationship with Brad.
(4) He's not going to go to a crappy team just for the money.
(5) He has more left to prove in BOS.

As my Mom used to say, "We shall see."

This seems to make more sense than all the other scenarios put together.

Lazy vs Crazy · Dec 24, 2019

View: https://twitter.com/ByJayKing/status/1209521563743248390

View: https://twitter.com/ByJayKing/status/1209522524897325057

Looks like it is nerve pain and Hayward thinks it is due to the ankle break.

Not ideal going forward.

lovegtm · Dec 24, 2019

Lazy vs Crazy said:
View: https://twitter.com/ByJayKing/status/1209521563743248390

View: https://twitter.com/ByJayKing/status/1209522524897325057

Looks like it is nerve pain and Hayward thinks it is due to the ankle break.

Not ideal going forward.

Yeah, I was very against moving him early in the year, but this is moving into "use him as salary" territory.

amarshal2 · Dec 24, 2019

If It’s nerve pain that’s awful. It could be challenging to manage through his playing career and the rest of his life.

BillMuellerFanClub · Dec 24, 2019

Speculation that it could be Morton's nueroma as a post-surgery complication. Saw a tweet earlier today about them believing they may have 'figured something out,' getting the right spot for the affected area with cortisone.

If this was truly something threatening his health this season or long-term, he wouldn't be listed as probable for tomorrow's game, I suspect.

DJnVa · Dec 24, 2019

Pattern in the Hayward posts:

1--Before we saw if he was back: "We could deal him or hope he opts out."
2--Utah Gordan was back: "Why did we ever want to deal him???"
3--Gets banged up: "Eh, we could get a big for him."

When he gets back and team is humming again, there's no way they're going to take him out of that and hope some new guy fits.

lovegtm · Dec 24, 2019

DJnVa said:
Pattern in the Hayward posts:

1--Before we saw if he was back: "We could deal him or hope he opts out."
2--Utah Gordan was back: "Why did we ever want to deal him???"
3--Gets banged up: "Eh, we could get a big for him."

When he gets back and team is humming again, there's no way they're going to take him out of that and hope some new guy fits.

If it’s chronic and related to the ankle break, that would change things.

Captaincoop · Dec 24, 2019

Post ankle Gordon feels like post-Ulf Cam Neely.

Rook05 · Dec 24, 2019

Captaincoop said:
Post ankle Gordon feels like post-Ulf Cam Neely.

Too soon.

bigq · Dec 26, 2019

Hayward with a very nice Christmas line of 6-9 from the floor (including 2-4 from three), 5 rebounds, 6 assists, 2 steals and 1 block in 26 minutes yesterday. More of that, please. When Hayward is playing well this Celtics team is a force.

lovegtm · Dec 26, 2019

bigq said:
Hayward with a very nice Christmas line of 6-9 from the floor (including 2-4 from three), 5 rebounds, 6 assists, 2 steals and 1 block in 26 minutes yesterday. More of that, please. When Hayward is playing well this Celtics team is a force.

I loved his physicality and bounce on the defensive end. He made a couple great plays helping in the paint from the weak side.

We think of the Celtics as a small team, but they’re pretty big and physical from 2-4, or 1-4 when they’re playing Wannamaker or Smart at PG. Not fun to play against when they have all the pieces—you can see it wear on teams over the course of most games.

Koufax · Dec 26, 2019

Yes, and the talk of trading him for a middling center was quite silly. The ability to always have 2 excellent wings on the floor is a luxury few teams have, and in GH they have a ball handler as well. We only have to hope that his foot problem is solved.

benhogan · Dec 26, 2019

lovegtm said:
I loved his physicality and bounce on the defensive end. He made a couple great plays helping in the paint from the weak side.

We think of the Celtics as a small team, but they’re pretty big and physical from 2-4, or 1-4 when they’re playing Wannamaker or Smart at PG. Not fun to play against when they have all the pieces—you can see it wear on teams over the course of most games.

agreed, they aren't as small as advertised.

Tatum's length, at the 2, is a terror on the perimeter. Brad had him guarding PGs recently (Lowry/FVV yesterday, Rozier/Graham before). I think JT will be the perimeter stopper this team needs to guard the Beals/Hields going forward.

Brown, after Team USA use, physicality/strength is clearly built to be a modern 4.

Koufax said:
Yes, and the talk of trading him for a middling center was quite silly. The ability to always have 2 excellent wings on the floor is a luxury few teams have, and in GH they have a ball handler as well. We only have to hope that his foot problem is solved.

Prediction: the Tristen Thompson/Kevin Love fake trade rumors will have the shortest SoSH lifespan ever

Eddie Jurak · Dec 26, 2019

lovegtm said:
We think of the Celtics as a small team, but they’re pretty big and physical from 2-4, or 1-4 when they’re playing Wannamaker or Smart at PG. Not fun to play against when they have all the pieces—you can see it wear on teams over the course of most games.

Yes. I think part of the success in the 2018 playoffs was having Rozier as the only small guard getting regular minutes. And part of the struggles of last year was too much Rozier/Kyrie small lineups.

NomarsFool · Dec 26, 2019

You have to match salaries. So, there's no way the Celtics are getting Love without Hayward or trading half the roster (even that probably wouldn't work).

amarshal2 · Dec 26, 2019

[/QUOTE]

BillMuellerFanClub said:
If this was truly something threatening his health this season or long-term, he wouldn't be listed as probable for tomorrow's game, I suspect.

Not a Dr. but pretty sure this is wrong. If he’s got nerve damage it can represent a short and long term risk to his availability and be extremely unlikely to be made worse by playing. You can’t just get cortisone shots every couple weeks for the rest of your career I dont think.

I’m going to disagree a bit with others. He looked good but we didn’t see him take it to the basket and finish on a layup or dunk once that I recall. Everything was stop and pop. He’s great at stop and pop but he needs to be able to get to the rim for a variety of reasons.

Omar's Wacky Neighbor · Dec 26, 2019

InstaFace said:
This is in the top-5 all time least-expected allusions on this entire (male-dominated) site. What fraction of posters are going to get all that? 10%? Hell I've read the book (forever ago) and don't remember enough to get the wit here.

Recusing myself, as I just saw my son in college play Darcy three weeks ago. (semi-modern dress, sent in Atlanta in 1986)

TripleOT · Dec 26, 2019

I don't think anyone posting about trading GH would want to trade a healthy one for Love.

Having three long, versatile 20 ppg wings is a great thing. The big question is whether Hayward can stay healthy. For almost all of his time in Boston, he hasn't been fully healthy and playing well.

mcpickl · Dec 26, 2019

NomarsFool said:
I have a hard time understanding cap stuff, but it looks like both Portland and Toronto could offer GH a max contract this summer without a S&T.

I don't know if Hayward would get a max offer this summer, but it wouldn't be from Portland or Toronto as constituted if he did.

As long as Lillard/McCollum/Nurkic are on Portlands books, they can't max anyone even if they were able to dump everything else of their books.

For Toronto to have any significant cap space this summer, they'd have to renounce their rights to Fred Van Vleet. They'll surely prioritize re-signing him over an older FA.

Eddie Jurak · Dec 26, 2019

Hayward's playmaking off the drive (or just finishing off the drive) is just huge for this offense.

lovegtm · Jan 1, 2020

Eddie Jurak said:
Hayward's playmaking off the drive (or just finishing off the drive) is just huge for this offense.

Yup, he consistently gets past the dig defender into threatening paint positions now, and his reads from there are really fast and generally correct.

His per 36 slash line production is right in line with where it was in Utah, even with more talent around him.

He’s over 60% from 2 and over 50% in the midrange, which makes him dangerous even when he doesn’t get to the rim. That's really critical for attacking teams like Milwaukee that concede the midrange schematically.

wade boggs chicken dinner · Jan 1, 2020

lovegtm said:
Yup, he consistently gets past the dig defender into threatening paint positions now, and his reads from there are really fast and generally correct.

His per 36 slash line production is right in line with where it was in Utah, even with more talent around him.

He’s over 60% from 2 and over 50% in the midrange, which makes him dangerous even when he doesn’t get to the rim. That's really critical for attacking teams like Milwaukee that concede the midrange schematically.

I thought last season, people figured out he was driving to pass and at the beginning of this season, he was so effective because he was driving to score a lot more frequently. I think that since he went out with his injury, he hasn't looked to score as much - maybe it has to do with the foot - but team is more dangerous especially when he's looking for that 10-16 foot pull-up.

lovegtm · Jan 1, 2020

wade boggs chicken dinner said:
I thought last season, people figured out he was driving to pass and at the beginning of this season, he was so effective because he was driving to score a lot more frequently. I think that since he went out with his injury, he hasn't looked to score as much - maybe it has to do with the foot - but team is more dangerous especially when he's looking for that 10-16 foot pull-up.

Teams were definitely playing him to pass last year, and he kept getting cut off at the nail. He looked a bit uncomfortable coming back recently, but I felt like last night his pass/shoot/"drive further" decisions in the paint were nearly all on point.

wade boggs chicken dinner · Jan 1, 2020

lovegtm said:
Teams were definitely playing him to pass last year, and he kept getting cut off at the nail. He looked a bit uncomfortable coming back recently, but I felt like last night his pass/shoot/"drive further" decisions in the paint were nearly all on point.

IIRC, He threw the ball away a couple of times and he put a couple of passes in bad spots but I thought he looked to score more in the second half and that helped.

DJnVa · Jan 1, 2020

lovegtm said:
His per 36 slash line production is right in line with where it was in Utah, even with more talent around him.

His last year in Utah (per 36): 22.9/5.6/3.6 on TS% of 59.5
This year in Boston (per 36): 19.4/7.3/5.3 on TS% of 61.3%

He's not Utah Gordon, he's Boston Gordon.

And yes, I'm aware of sample sizes.

pjheff · Jan 1, 2020

lovegtm said:
Yup, he consistently gets past the dig defender into threatening paint positions now, and his reads from there are really fast and generally correct.

Wrong thread perhaps, but is it overly optimistic to wonder if Langford could grow into such a role when Hayward is not on the floor?

Gordon Hayward 2020: I'm standing here in pieces and you're having delusions of grandeur!

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