Noah's Arc: Song back, assigned to GVL.

soxhop411

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View: https://twitter.com/AACapitalSports/status/1206986557955170305

In the November 8 memo, Esper states that military service secretaries can nominate an athlete for a waiver after determining there “is a strong expectation that a Military Service Academy cadet or midshipman’s future professional sports employment will provide the Department of Defense with significant favorable media exposure likely to enhance national level recruiting or public affairs missions.”
Esper’s memo contained two important caveats. It took effect on November 8, 2019, which means the graduating class of 2020 will be the first impacted. Also, it decreed that athletes approved for the waiver would not be commissioned as officers immediately following graduation.
Those two elements are why the new order cannot be applied to Song, who graduated from the Naval Academy last May and was commissioned as a Naval flight officer. The California native is waiting to receive orders to report to flight school at Naval Air Station Pensacola.
 

stepson_and_toe

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"Those two elements are why the new order cannot be applied to Song, who graduated from the Naval Academy last May and was commissioned as a Naval flight officer."

Has he gone through flight training? If not, then why shouldn't there be room to include him in the new policy? I think there is precedence for allowing him to serve a shortened term of active duty.
 

NickEsasky

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"Those two elements are why the new order cannot be applied to Song, who graduated from the Naval Academy last May and was commissioned as a Naval flight officer."

Has he gone through flight training? If not, then why shouldn't there be room to include him in the new policy? I think there is precedence for allowing him to serve a shortened term of active duty.
It seems the issue is that he is already an officer. Something that will change with the waivers for the class of 2020.
 

sean1562

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if he cant get a waiver, that is basically the end of his mlb career right?
 

stepson_and_toe

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Alex Speier's article today quotes Song saying, "that to the best of his knowledge he will spend the next two years in flight school before he next has an opportunity to petition for a military service waiver that would permit him to begin a pro baseball career."

Why would they spend all that money on two years of pilot training then let him go play pro baseball? One would think that the decision should be made before that.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Alex Speier's article today quotes Song saying, "that to the best of his knowledge he will spend the next two years in flight school before he next has an opportunity to petition for a military service waiver that would permit him to begin a pro baseball career."

Why would they spend all that money on two years of pilot training then let him go play pro baseball? One would think that the decision should be made before that.
Because they plan on denying him in 2 years as well?
 

EvilEmpire

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He should probably fulfill his military commitment first; that's what he signed up for. But if the Navy is going to let him go, they will almost certainly do it before he goes to flight school. I suspect they will.
 

DJnVa

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I mean, Naval Aviator or pro ballplayer. Sheesh. What am I doing with my life?
 

TSC

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This may be a hot take, but good on the Navy for denying him.

You go to a service academy, get a very good education for free with the knowledge that your payment is in service to the country, you don’t get to avoid that because you’re good at sports.

There are plenty of other schools he could have gone to if he wanted to be a pro baseball player.
 

NickEsasky

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This may be a hot take, but good on the Navy for denying him.

You go to a service academy, get a very good education for free with the knowledge that your payment is in service to the country, you don’t get to avoid that because you’re good at sports.

There are plenty of other schools he could have gone to if he wanted to be a pro baseball player.
I actually agree with this. But do you think there are certain exceptions like this or guys like Villaneuva in the NFL where the PR of them being a pro athlete does more to help recruitment to said academies?
 

Cesar Crespo

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I actually agree with this. But do you think there are certain exceptions like this or guys like Villaneuva in the NFL where the PR of them being a pro athlete does more to help recruitment to said academies?
Even if he was given the green light, chances are Song never makes the majors. I'm not sure how much good PR it will be if he flames out in AAA.
 

shaggydog2000

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This may be a hot take, but good on the Navy for denying him.

You go to a service academy, get a very good education for free with the knowledge that your payment is in service to the country, you don’t get to avoid that because you’re good at sports.

There are plenty of other schools he could have gone to if he wanted to be a pro baseball player.
And why do the service academies have extramural sports teams? You would think there are plenty of team building and leadership opportunities in a service academy without them. They've always been a recruiting tool. And if they get no publicity, they are worthless. They need good players to serve a purpose, and if a good player can occasionally go pro, it's best to allow them to do so to gain you more publicity on the pro level, and to encourage more good players to come to your school. Song may not have thought he was certain to go pro at 18 when he committed. That he is should be rewarded. There are ways for him to serve, possibly in the reserves, possibly in a community recruiting position wherever he is located, etc.

I know the military has gone back and forth on their rules on allowing athletes to turn pro and how they could serve or not alongside that. There are times where they communicate that the PR value is worth it for them. Other times they give vague answers about why they won't release athletes. I've heard all the arguments pro and con, and I tend to take the PR side. Maybe he flames out in AAA. But him getting a chance means more good players will be willing to play for the Navy team, and maybe a one or two out of dozens of them will have a chance to be drafted. I think that's a fair trade.
 

barbed wire Bob

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USN pilot height requirement: 5'2" to 6'5"
It‘s a little more complicated than that. The basic height restrictions are 62” to 78” for a male, but the Navy also has a series of to determine what airframes you can fit in.
There are no waivers for not meeting the height standards whether too short or too tall.
- Height restrictions: 62" - 78" (male)
- 58" - 78" (female)
- Should be able to swim prior to OCS.

A strict process is used in Pensacola to measure applicants in order to determine which air frames they may qualify to fly. These measurements are based on several factors including height, weight, functional reach, buttocks knee length, and sitting height which is used to ensure the aviator's safety on sitting in the cockpit as well as emergency ejections.
https://www.thebalancecareers.com/naval-aviation-pilot-qualification-3356606https://www.med.navy.mil/sites/nmotc/nami/arwg/Documents/WaiverGuide/01_Physical_Standards.pdfAccording to his Wikipedia page, the Navy determined he was too tall to be a naval pilot, but he could become a Naval Flight Officer ( Goose, the guy in back)
 

TSC

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I actually agree with this. But do you think there are certain exceptions like this or guys like Villaneuva in the NFL where the PR of them being a pro athlete does more to help recruitment to said academies?
No.

The Academies are not in need of recruitment tools. West Point has a 9.6% acceptance rate.


And why do the service academies have extramural sports teams? You would think there are plenty of team building and leadership opportunities in a service academy without them. They've always been a recruiting tool. And if they get no publicity, they are worthless. They need good players to serve a purpose, and if a good player can occasionally go pro, it's best to allow them to do so to gain you more publicity on the pro level, and to encourage more good players to come to your school. Song may not have thought he was certain to go pro at 18 when he committed. That he is should be rewarded. There are ways for him to serve, possibly in the reserves, possibly in a community recruiting position wherever he is located, etc.

I know the military has gone back and forth on their rules on allowing athletes to turn pro and how they could serve or not alongside that. There are times where they communicate that the PR value is worth it for them. Other times they give vague answers about why they won't release athletes. I've heard all the arguments pro and con, and I tend to take the PR side. Maybe he flames out in AAA. But him getting a chance means more good players will be willing to play for the Navy team, and maybe a one or two out of dozens of them will have a chance to be drafted. I think that's a fair trade.
Because a lot of people in the military are athletic, enjoy playing sports, and why would they not have them?

Here's the rub.

Why should baseball (or football, or hockey, or whatever) get the best physical years of his life? His commitment first and foremost is to the military. Let's say he spends 4 years playing baseball and completely destroys his arm and washes out. By the time he makes it to the military he's not longer deployable due to injuries, and he's eventually separated.

As I said to Nick above - the Academies don't need to recruit. They have plenty of people who want to go for plenty of reasons few of which are going pro for sports. If you're willing to accept an appointment to West Point, or the Citadel - you do so knowing that the repayment for that education is service. We should not be making exceptions to that service for people who can throw a fastball really well, or block the A gap.
 

nighthob

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Given that the Pentagon is a giant sucking mass of evil and pro sports relatively harmless amusement, we should always be rooting for people to end up in pro sports. ;)

Practically speaking, there's nothing in baseball that will stop him from serving in the navy after.
 

shaggydog2000

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No.

The Academies are not in need of recruitment tools. West Point has a 9.6% acceptance rate.




Because a lot of people in the military are athletic, enjoy playing sports, and why would they not have them?

Here's the rub.

Why should baseball (or football, or hockey, or whatever) get the best physical years of his life? His commitment first and foremost is to the military. Let's say he spends 4 years playing baseball and completely destroys his arm and washes out. By the time he makes it to the military he's not longer deployable due to injuries, and he's eventually separated.

As I said to Nick above - the Academies don't need to recruit. They have plenty of people who want to go for plenty of reasons few of which are going pro for sports. If you're willing to accept an appointment to West Point, or the Citadel - you do so knowing that the repayment for that education is service. We should not be making exceptions to that service for people who can throw a fastball really well, or block the A gap.
The sports aren't to recruit for the academies. They're to recruit for the Military branches in general. Just like car companies don't compete in F1 to sell full race cars. If they just wanted to have their athletes play sports there are always intramurals or they could start an academy league. Or play Div III.
 

Awesome Fossum

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If it was just about student life, Army and Navy would play football in the Patriot League like they do for all their other sports. Playing FBS football is definitely a strategic decision for which national visibility is the impetus.

But even if you accept that PR should be part of the calculus, I'm not convinced you're coming out ahead. The greater PR win is when the player completes his military service first and then comes back, which was true of Roger Staubach, David Robinson, and Alejandro Villanueva. And you're undercutting the overall narrative in a big way when the players aren't actually moving on to serve.
 
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stepson_and_toe

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It‘s a little more complicated than that.
I did a search but did not find the information you came up with for the Navy. I did see that for the Air Force but was unaware if it covered all pilots or just fighter pilots. Cargo aircraft (at least the ones I was in) had more room for pilots/co-pilots than fighter planes. I don't know about helicopters.
 

barbed wire Bob

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I did a search but did not find the information you came up with for the Navy. I did see that for the Air Force but was unaware if it covered all pilots or just fighter pilots. Cargo aircraft (at least the ones I was in) had more room for pilots/co-pilots than fighter planes. I don't know about helicopters.
I did a little more googling and found this NAVAIR instruction covering anthropometric accommodation. It’s dated 2006 so it may have been revised since then.

https://www.public.navy.mil/netc/centers/cnatt/nascweb/anthro_/files/3710.9D.pdf
 

TSC

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The sports aren't to recruit for the academies. They're to recruit for the Military branches in general. Just like car companies don't compete in F1 to sell full race cars. If they just wanted to have their athletes play sports there are always intramurals or they could start an academy league. Or play Div III.
Yea, disagree. I can tell you that in my 17 year career I've never met a single person in the military who joined because a bunch of Cadets or Midshipmen played football on TV.
 

nighthob

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Regardless that's exactly why they do it. And why the NFL puts on those military displays at the halftimes of NFL games. And why the Pentagon's embedded itself in Hollywood (by offering technical support in exchange for script approval). So regardless of your experience, the Pentagon has pursued a policy of promoting the military in a positive light so as to aid recruiting.
 

shaggydog2000

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Yea, disagree. I can tell you that in my 17 year career I've never met a single person in the military who joined because a bunch of Cadets or Midshipmen played football on TV.
Has anyone ever told you they chose a mobile phone carrier because of the "can you hear me now" guy being in their ad?
 

EvilEmpire

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It's all those young soldiers would talk about, how cool those Service Academy teams were. Back when, you could go into the barracks day room on a typical Saturday (when we still had day rooms) and see young enlisted soldiers cheering for the Army team and urging those young cadets on to victory. Standing room only. Senior Day was always the best, because then the soldiers could sit around and wonder if any of those young cadets would show up to be their new Platoon Leader in the next year or so. Such joy and anticipation!
 

stepson_and_toe

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Senior Day was always the best, because then the soldiers could sit around and wonder if any of those young cadets would show up to be their new Platoon Leader in the next year or so. Such joy and anticipation!
Might depend on the branch of service. In the Air Force you were generally more concerned with the sergeant in charge; officers were more distant unless you were part of an air crew or had a job that required interaction.
 

Le Bastonois

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If it was just about student life, Army and Navy would play football in the Patriot League like they do for all their other sports. Playing FBS football is definitely a strategic decision for which national visibility is the impetus.

But even if you accept that PR should be part of the calculus, I'm not convinced you're coming out ahead. The greater PR win is when the player completes his military service first and then comes back, which was true of Roger Staubach, David Robinson, and Alejandro Villanueva. And you're undercutting the overall narrative in a big way when the players aren't actually moving on to serve.
David Robertson was given a commission in the US Naval Reserve after completing Annapolis, and therefore only needed to do two years. A USNR commission is usually for ROTC grads, and 90 day wonders.

As I sat in the middle of the Pacific Ocean and cleaned heads and floors, pealed potatoes and scrubbed pots, knowing that I only had 3 more years of this left and David Robertson only had two years of eating off of china plates in the ward room of soon to be ex duty station, left me with a warm and fuzzy feeling about recruitment.
 

CarolinaBeerGuy

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David Robertson was given a commission in the US Naval Reserve after completing Annapolis, and therefore only needed to do two years. A USNR commission is usually for ROTC grads, and 90 day wonders.

As I sat in the middle of the Pacific Ocean and cleaned heads and floors, pealed potatoes and scrubbed pots, knowing that I only had 3 more years of this left and David Robertson only had two years of eating off of china plates in the ward room of soon to be ex duty station, left me with a warm and fuzzy feeling about recruitment.
Robinson. David Robinson.
 

Awesome Fossum

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Yes, it was only two years, but Robinson did delay his basketball career to fulfill his commitment to the Navy, and that's now part of the story the Academy gets to tell.

I believe you and the other veterans in this thread who say they are/were unimpressed with the narrative. I don't really agree that the Academy athletic teams are a marketing tool for the entire service wing (as opposed to USNA specifically), and I definitely don't think the intended audience of The David Robinson Story is the guy already peeling the potatoes in the middle of the Pacific.
 

stepson_and_toe

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I spoke about David Robinson about a week ago in Down in the Farm -- 2019 Edition, saying that I saw him in a bar in his last year or so at the USNA. What I didn't mention was that he was in uniform and the tail of his shirt was hanging down the back of his trousers. Very military looking. As a result of my height (6'4") I had problems marching when I was in the military. A stride when marching is 30 inches and I certainly take much longer ones when walking. And to set up a marching formation, after you fall in, you are told told to move up if you are taller than the person in front of you; then the formation is given a Right Face and told the same thing; and finally, the formation is given a Left Face and told to move up. This puts the tallest person in the right front of the formation. So if you are in that position and your stride isn't right, it is very noticeable. What the hell does a guy 7-foot tall do? Also, I was longer than the beds that I slept in for eight years (I once asked permission to speak with the squadron commander and told him I wanted a longer bed, to which he responded, "Get out of here.").
 

Le Bastonois

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I spoke about David Robinson about a week ago in Down in the Farm -- 2019 Edition, saying that I saw him in a bar in his last year or so at the USNA. What I didn't mention was that he was in uniform and the tail of his shirt was hanging down the back of his trousers. Very military looking. As a result of my height (6'4") I had problems marching when I was in the military. A stride when marching is 30 inches and I certainly take much longer ones when walking. And to set up a marching formation, after you fall in, you are told told to move up if you are taller than the person in front of you; then the formation is given a Right Face and told the same thing; and finally, the formation is given a Left Face and told to move up. This puts the tallest person in the right front of the formation. So if you are in that position and your stride isn't right, it is very noticeable. What the hell does a guy 7-foot tall do? Also, I was longer than the beds that I slept in for eight years (I once asked permission to speak with the squadron commander and told him I wanted a longer bed, to which he responded, "Get out of here.").
Imagine doing a tour on a U.S. Man of War ship where the rack, (the name for a torture device and a bed), is meant for a person at the average height of 5.9.

If I was Navy Sec., I would have sent Ensign Robinson to submarine duty. And not the spacious boomers and fast attack, but something more like the U.S.S. Bluebird, refitted WWII diesel. What colorful stories would have come from that.

We used to have a cadet cruise on my ship every year and we would take on a load of cad-idiots. What fun.
 

CarolinaBeerGuy

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Imagine doing a tour on a U.S. Man of War ship where the rack, (the name for a torture device and a bed), is meant for a person at the average height of 5.9.

If I was Navy Sec., I would have sent Ensign Robinson to submarine duty. And not the spacious boomers and fast attack, but something more like the U.S.S. Bluebird, refitted WWII diesel. What colorful stories would have come from that.

We used to have a cadet cruise on my ship every year and we would take on a load of cad-idiots. What fun.
Purely for the reason of being mean to someone who is abnormally tall? Dislike.
 

YTF

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Given that the Pentagon is a giant sucking mass of evil and pro sports relatively harmless amusement, we should always be rooting for people to end up in pro sports. ;)

Practically speaking, there's nothing in baseball that will stop him from serving in the navy after.
Age maybe, depending on his level of success in baseball or perhaps injury.
 

stepson_and_toe

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Imagine doing a tour on a U.S. Man of War ship where the rack, (the name for a torture device and a bed), is meant for a person at the average height of 5.9.
I was below decks on a replica of a tall ship (the Bounty?) in harbor and had to walk almost doubled over. The average height of a English male, age 21, in the early 1870s was about 5'6", according to the BBC.
 

Le Bastonois

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La Bast like to tell jokes.
Adding levity...nothing anecdotal. My baseball humor is Stengelsonian. Casey is one of my heros.

On my duty station ship, my group, Operations, slept in a 24 man berthing area, with four racks to a cubie, two high. There was a hurricane bar to keep you from falling out. When you'd get up in the middle of the night to go to the head, you'd see all the feet sticking out off of the racks in every direction. Looked like something out of Benny Hill.

As far as the topic at hand, Anchors Away Noah Song, Anchors Away!
 

Martin and Woods

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Adding levity...nothing anecdotal. My baseball humor is Stengelsonian. Casey is one of my heros.

On my duty station ship, my group, Operations, slept in a 24 man berthing area, with four racks to a cubie, two high. There was a hurricane bar to keep you from falling out. When you'd get up in the middle of the night to go to the head, you'd see all the feet sticking out off of the racks in every direction. Looked like something out of Benny Hill.

As far as the topic at hand, Anchors Away Noah Song, Anchors Away!
To you, Noah, and all the veterans here, thank you for your service [raises a glass of Christmas ale]! Happy Holidays to all.