The Gunner Watch

5dice

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Hope he makes it thru the rest of the roster machinations. Nice to have on punt returns so Edelman can’t get hurt and Chung can’t be Chung the punt returner.
 

Marciano490

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Can we call him Deerhunter if he sticks? I dunno, he’s Polish. His name is Gunner. He made the most of his one shot.
 

ZMart100

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Agreed. Thomas seems like the odd man out right now.

Edit: Re SeoulSF
 
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I would be so, so happy if DT is the one to go. And I like the guy. But Gunner isn’t going anywhere, given his skill set, and I’d hate to lose Meyers, which they almost certainly would if he’s released. Won’t make it to the P.S., IMO.
 

Willie Clay's Big Play

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Brady is working with kids. Billion dollar industry and there are kids delivering product and figuring out how to meet BB's and TB's standards.

Enjoy the ride this season. We are spoiled.
 

MuppetAsteriskTalk

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My wife has the same last name and this kid with his Bass Pro Shop hat and (I'll call it a) white sleeveless T shirt on looks just like her cousins and nephews from farm country, PA.
 

Saints Rest

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Brady is working with kids. Billion dollar industry and there are kids delivering product and figuring out how to meet BB's and TB's standards.

Enjoy the ride this season. We are spoiled.
The Pats skill position players for most of the second half: 6th rounder, 4th rounder, 7th rounder, 7th rounder, UDFA, UDFA.
 

Ed Hillel

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I like the kid, but don’t like the way he plows into tacklers at break-neck speed every damned play. The idea is to not get hit and to stay on the field!
 

Jed Zeppelin

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I like the kid, but don’t like the way he plows into tacklers at break-neck speed every damned play. The idea is to not get hit and to stay on the field!
"It's the last quarter of a blowout and this asshole thinks it's the Super Bowl!"
 

SeoulSoxFan

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I like the kid, but don’t like the way he plows into tacklers at break-neck speed every damned play. The idea is to not get hit and to stay on the field!
Isn't that what Edelman used to do earlier in his career? He also used to short-arm some catchable balls, drawing ire from Brady.

I'm worried too but have little doubt the "kid" will adjust sooner than later.
 

SeoulSoxFan

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6 am games are brutal for me here but I nearly damn bursted out laughing (and crying) with joy watching Gunner today.

He nearly had 3 punt return TDs in 2 games. I guess he ain't gonna be cut no more.
 

Zedia

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Was there anyone who didn‘t think it was time to cut him 3 weeks ago? Been waiting him to show some “Edelman flashes”, and just when I gave up he has two big games in a row.
 

joe dokes

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Was there anyone who didn‘t think it was time to cut him 3 weeks ago? Been waiting him to show some “Edelman flashes”, and just when I gave up he has two big games in a row.
Coincides with him being taken off kickoff returns. Maybe his relative ineffectiveness there was affecting the rest of his game.
 

bigq

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Gunner is a first team all pro for punt returner
Good for him. He came on strong in the second half of the season. I thought there was gamethread noise in the first half of the season calling for him to be cut.
 

BusRaker

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Jake is on first team as well ... looked for a Jake Bailey thread on here but couldn't find one. Lots of potential puns with that name! This obviously means the Pats completely dominate the NFL punting phase (both sides of the ball!)
 

BaseballJones

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Three Pats on the All-Pro team, all special teamers.

Bailey (P, 1st team)
Gunner (PR, 1st team)
Slater (ST, 2nd team)

The Pats had the best special teams in the sport this season, by a wide margin. Even Folk was really really good. Too bad the rest of the team didn't do the job.
 

normstalls

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Good for him. He came on strong in the second half of the season. I thought there was gamethread noise in the first half of the season calling for him to be cut.
Shows you how smart SoSH is... That said, I think most of that was related to Kick Off returns (manly, him coming out of the end zone and coming up short of the 25). Regardless, congrats Gunner! Great season, hoping there are many more.
 

steveluck7

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amazing that bill can find guys like Gunner, Edelman, Berrios, etc. who are late rounders and UDFA's (some of whom change positions) and turn them into (at minimum) solid pros yet he drafts guys in the 1st and 2nd rounds who can't play
 

Captaincoop

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amazing that bill can find guys like Gunner, Edelman, Berrios, etc. who are late rounders and UDFA's (some of whom change positions) and turn them into (at minimum) solid pros yet he drafts guys in the 1st and 2nd rounds who can't play
How many teams have a guy on the roster who only returns punts, and another who only covers punts, and several who only cover kicks...he invests so much in these special teams roles, it's not surprising the results are what they are on special teams.
 

Super Nomario

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How many teams have a guy on the roster who only returns punts, and another who only covers punts, and several who only cover kicks...he invests so much in these special teams roles, it's not surprising the results are what they are on special teams.
Most teams do this. You've got 46 active players (48 this year) and only 11 players on the field at once; some guys are going to play a lot of special teams and infrequently on O/D. The Bills' primary return guy, Andre Roberts, had 4 catches this year and played 62 snaps on O (pretty comparable to Gunner). He was one of 6 Bills who played more than 100 snaps on STs and less than 100 on O/D, not including the K/P/LS.

What makes the Patriots unusual is that they're willing to pay those guys $2-3 MM a year instead of just league minimum.
 

Captaincoop

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Just looked it up. More teams that I would have thought are using PR guys who don't contribute regularly on offense or defense. But not more than half of teams are. I don't know how many have as many Slaters and Bethels and Kings as the Pats do, but my guess is most teams don't.
 

Super Nomario

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Just looked it up. More teams that I would have thought are using PR guys who don't contribute regularly on offense or defense. But not more than half of teams are. I don't know how many have as many Slaters and Bethels and Kings as the Pats do, but my guess is most teams don't.
The Patriots don't always have a dedicated return guy either; it was Edelman for a while, and Welker for a while, and Faulk for a while. Sometimes it works out that way, sometimes it doesn't.

Most teams don't have a Slater and Bethel, but they almost all have guys whose playing time breaks down that way. Some teams would rather have their STs populated with developmental O / D guys (who are not going to play O / D anyway). The Patriots always like to have a few dedicated ST guys, and are willing to pay for them.
 

Harry Hooper

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amazing that bill can find guys like Gunner, Edelman, Berrios, etc. who are late rounders and UDFA's (some of whom change positions) and turn them into (at minimum) solid pros yet he drafts guys in the 1st and 2nd rounds who can't play
The story from the scouting folks is that BB does his thing in the first 3-4 rounds and then defers to them for later rounds and UDFAs. That sounds a bit too convenient to me to buy 100%, though.
 

rodderick

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amazing that bill can find guys like Gunner, Edelman, Berrios, etc. who are late rounders and UDFA's (some of whom change positions) and turn them into (at minimum) solid pros yet he drafts guys in the 1st and 2nd rounds who can't play
I mean, those guys all fit the mold of the type of player that has had success in their offensive system for 20 years. God knows why when Bill drafts receivers high, it's the Chad Jackson/Aaron Dobson/N'Keal Harry/Taylor Price types and not the shifty route runners. That Deion Branch kid worked out ok, why stray from the formula?
 

Saints Rest

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The Patriots don't always have a dedicated return guy either; it was Edelman for a while, and Welker for a while, and Faulk for a while. Sometimes it works out that way, sometimes it doesn't.

Most teams don't have a Slater and Bethel, but they almost all have guys whose playing time breaks down that way. Some teams would rather have their STs populated with developmental O / D guys (who are not going to play O / D anyway). The Patriots always like to have a few dedicated ST guys, and are willing to pay for them.
It actually surprised me that they didn't find a way to get Gunner on the field for some bubble screens or jet sweeps.
 

Super Nomario

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It actually surprised me that they didn't find a way to get Gunner on the field for some bubble screens or jet sweeps.
He did get 5 rushing attempts, which is kind of a lot considering he only played 100-something snaps on O. The camp reports on him at WR were really good, but the only games he got any run were the two Harry missed.
 

lexrageorge

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Most teams do this. You've got 46 active players (48 this year) and only 11 players on the field at once; some guys are going to play a lot of special teams and infrequently on O/D. The Bills' primary return guy, Andre Roberts, had 4 catches this year and played 62 snaps on O (pretty comparable to Gunner). He was one of 6 Bills who played more than 100 snaps on STs and less than 100 on O/D, not including the K/P/LS.

What makes the Patriots unusual is that they're willing to pay those guys $2-3 MM a year instead of just league minimum.
Most of the ST players for the Pats get more money because they've been with the team for a while. I'm specifically thinking of Matt Slater (~$2.5M/yr), or Brandon Bolden, or Ghostkowski and Ryan Allen. Justin Bethel was only $1.6M/yr, which may be close to vet min for an 8 year player off the waiver wire. Gunner and Bailey don't make a whole lot. For the most part, the Pats will pay their special teams players once they clear their rookie contracts, which is perhaps different than what most other franchises do.

If special teams wins you 1 or 2 games per season (it won the Pats the Rams game in a big way), then it's well worth it. And even more so when one of those is a playoff game (recall the 2001 AFCCG).
 

Super Nomario

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Most of the ST players for the Pats get more money because they've been with the team for a while. I'm specifically thinking of Matt Slater (~$2.5M/yr), or Brandon Bolden, or Ghostkowski and Ryan Allen. Justin Bethel was only $1.6M/yr, which may be close to vet min for an 8 year player off the waiver wire. Gunner and Bailey don't make a whole lot. For the most part, the Pats will pay their special teams players once they clear their rookie contracts, which is perhaps different than what most other franchises do.

If special teams wins you 1 or 2 games per season (it won the Pats the Rams game in a big way), then it's well worth it. And even more so when one of those is a playoff game (recall the 2001 AFCCG).
I agree with all of this. I think you're thinking of the Chargers game BTW, but also the Cardinals game - they only had four scoring drives, one was set up by a long kick return, one by a long punt return, and one was capped by the game-winning 50-yard FG. They lose that game with average STs. But by the offseason it seems like Pats fans are always wondering whether they're spending too much on STs and should devote more resources to O/D.

My view is that special teams is where defense was in Sabermetrics in the late-90's / early-2000's; we didn't have great metrics on it, so people were arguing it didn't matter.
 

Harry Hooper

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The lack of metrics could go both ways here. While we might be able to identify a few games where special teams really powered a victory, how do we identify the games where ongoing poor talent/depth (due to heavy investment in special teams) at positions like C, TE, or LB were major factors in a loss?


It actually surprised me that they didn't find a way to get Gunner on the field for some bubble screens or jet sweeps.
Looks like neither Meyers or Olszewski were given enough snaps at WR by the coaching staff in the 1st half of the season.
 
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Mystic Merlin

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They allocated about 8.5-9M in cap dollars to full time special teamers this year, by my read. The cap is about 200M.

Hell, what about paying 14.8M to one guard (Thuney)? If we’re going to question where resources are allocated, special teams - with Pro Bowl caliber guys all over the place - seems like an odd place to look.

What were they gonna do with a couple million freed up by cutting Bethel?
 

Captaincoop

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In my mind it's less about the money and more about the roster spots, particularly the game day active lists.

But given the really glaring lack of talent with the Pats this year on offense and defense, I don't know anyone who would argue we needed a third shitty TE activated (or whatever) instead of a ST specialist.
 

Harry Hooper

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They allocated about 8.5-9M in cap dollars to full time special teamers this year, by my read. The cap is about 200M.

Hell, what about paying 14.8M to one guard (Thuney)? If we’re going to question where resources are allocated, special teams - with Pro Bowl caliber guys all over the place - seems like an odd place to look.

What were they gonna do with a couple million freed up by cutting Bethel?
Thuney being tagged {whether for a botched plan to trade him or due to lingering trauma from the 2019 OL chaos} makes him a bit of an odd case, but you sold me.