2019 Pats: In-Season Roster & Injury Discussion

Eddie Jurak

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OTOH the last time Develin got hurt, they didn't even attempt to replace him. It's a weird market for fullbacks - there really appear to be only 10-12 people in the world who can do the job, yet it is not really valued. That rarity, in contradiction of basic economic principles, has made fullback even less valued in the long run, as more and more teams run offenses that don't even have a nominal role for FBs.
There's no contradiction of basic economic principles. Fullback is just not a highly valued position in today's NFL. There are probably only 10-12 jobs precisely because it isn't that highly valued, not because every team wants one but there are so few.
 
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I'm sure what it will come down to, regardless of how we see those positions at the moment, is how strong the WR depth is in a month or so, how well Newhouse and others on the OL are playing, etc...

Edit typos
 

TheoShmeo

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It’s hard to see Wynn not being activated at the earliest possible time. As between Harry and Develin, it’s going to depend more on what’s happening at the time. How’s Johnson doing on special teams and as a FB. How’s the WR depth? How ready health wise are all of them? What other players have been put on IR? And even Wynn might not be as necessary as I now think. If the line is healthy and Newhouse is performing well, maybe he’s less of a given. I suspect he will remain as such, but in the end it’s almost impossible to project needs so many weeks away.
 

mwonow

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It’s hard to see Wynn not being activated at the earliest possible time. As between Harry and Develin, it’s going to depend more on what’s happening at the time. How’s Johnson doing on special teams and as a FB. How’s the WR depth? How ready health wise are all of them? What other players have been put on IR? And even Wynn might not be as necessary as I now think. If the line is healthy and Newhouse is performing well, maybe he’s less of a given. I suspect he will remain as such, but in the end it’s almost impossible to project needs so many weeks away.
Also, health. If the Pats need to choose between two of three (or more, in time) healthy starter-level players in the second half of the season, that will be a good problem to have - but these injuries may be bad enough to legitimately end one or more of these guys' seasons.

Of the three, it would seem like a neck injury for a fullback might be the hardest to fully rectify in eight weeks, so Wynn and Harry might get the nods by default if they're ready; same is true if Develin's okay and one of the other two isn't. If the injury situation doesn't change (sorry for the pause, I was busy knocking on wood), and all three are healthy when they can be activated, I'd guess Harry is the odd man out - Wynn and Develin are legit starters, Harry is a high-potential reserve who hasn't yet played an NFL down
 

Super Nomario

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Of the three, it would seem like a neck injury for a fullback might be the hardest to fully rectify in eight weeks, so Wynn and Harry might get the nods by default if they're ready; same is true if Develin's okay and one of the other two isn't. If the injury situation doesn't change (sorry for the pause, I was busy knocking on wood), and all three are healthy when they can be activated, I'd guess Harry is the odd man out - Wynn and Develin are legit starters, Harry is a high-potential reserve who hasn't yet played an NFL down
But Harry is eligible to return soonest - to practice in Week 7 and to games in Week 9 (it's 9 / 11 for Wynn and 10 / 12 for Develin). Assuming Harry is healthy enough to practice Week 7, are they going to keep him on IR?

I'm pretty bummed by the implications of one of Harry / Wynn / Develin missing the whole year. At 31 with a neck injury at a car-crash position, Develin could be done. If Wynn winds up missing essentially all of his first two NFL seasons, you can stick a fork in his career. Harry redshirting would suggest pretty significant buyer's remorse - or significant injury setback, neither of which are great.
 

DebSox

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When did Harry’s injury occur? Did he even play any preseason snaps? That could factor in also if he hasn’t played any games at the NFL level.
 

DJnVa

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When did Harry’s injury occur? Did he even play any preseason snaps? That could factor in also if he hasn’t played any games at the NFL level.
Yes, he played some in the preseason.
 

lambeau

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Howe said this morning that Develin has a not-too-severe cervical disc herniation but should be returning, I guess Game 11, the week after Wynn, unless they're desperate for receivers.
 

joe dokes

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Howe said this morning that Develin has a not-too-severe cervical disc herniation but should be returning, I guess Game 11, the week after Wynn, unless they're desperate for receivers.
Herniated discs don't unherniate. He may come back after the swelling that's probably causing him pain diminishes, but he's on borrowed time, especially given his position.
 

SeoulSoxFan

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Not sure why Harry would be a consideration over Develin (given both are healthy enough to come off IR). Just how many snaps will he play over Gordon or even Dorsett?

Given the consistent success this team has when running play-action, having Develin back would be much, much preferred.

Now, Johnson can give out punishing blocks like this but can he pass-protect? Swing out wide?

View: https://www.reddit.com/r/Patriots/comments/d8dhep/zac_coxjakob_johnson_killed_a_guy/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x
 

bakahump

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I am less worried about JJs blocking as how he will be in the passing game. Splitting Develin out wide was a pretty helpful wrinkle to the offense as he was good enough to be a threat and needed to be accounted for.

Aside:is there a position in the NFL you would be less likely to want your kid to play then FB? I get that all these guys take damage and screw the rest of their lives up. But FBs. Good lord.
 

tims4wins

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Not sure why Harry would be a consideration over Develin (given both are healthy enough to come off IR). Just how many snaps will he play over Gordon or even Dorsett?

Given the consistent success this team has when running play-action, having Develin back would be much, much preferred.
I completely agree. Unless Edelman or Gordon get hurt / suspended, I think Develin is much more of a need than Harry.

In order of preference to return, I go Wynn >> Develin >>>> Harry
 

Super Nomario

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Not sure why Harry would be a consideration over Develin (given both are healthy enough to come off IR). Just how many snaps will he play over Gordon or even Dorsett?

Given the consistent success this team has when running play-action, having Develin back would be much, much preferred.

Now, Johnson can give out punishing blocks like this but can he pass-protect? Swing out wide?

View: https://www.reddit.com/r/Patriots/comments/d8dhep/zac_coxjakob_johnson_killed_a_guy/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x
You really want to put all your eggs in the Josh Gordon basket? The Patriots have four real WR on the roster (not counting Slater or Gunner) at a position where you play three most of the time. Last year four WR played more offensive snaps than Develin (Dorsett just barely at 500 to 495). So upgrading WR4 vs FB is a pretty even proposition from an on-field percentage standpoint.

The other issue is that you have to make a determination on Harry three weeks before Develin.
 

BigSoxFan

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The odds of Gordon lasting a full season are incredibly low. Right now, Develin makes more sense because we need to get the running game going but I would be willing to bet that we'll need Harry before it's all said and done. I wish Gordon the best but you just cannot rely on him being available for all 16 games plus the playoffs.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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The odds of Gordon lasting a full season are incredibly low. Right now, Develin makes more sense because we need to get the running game going but I would be willing to bet that we'll need Harry before it's all said and done. I wish Gordon the best but you just cannot rely on him being available for all 16 games plus the playoffs.
You can't even think about it in terms of "Well if he makes it to Week X then there's a good chance he makes it all the way." Certainly not with enough certainty to suggest that Harry might be extraneous this year.
 

joe dokes

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Aside:is there a position in the NFL you would be less likely to want your kid to play then FB? I get that all these guys take damage and screw the rest of their lives up. But FBs. Good lord.
Just about every single time Develin was mentioned on TV for a great block was a play that made me cringe a bit watching him.
All the banged heads of offensive linemen, but with a running start.
 

Euclis20

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If I could be sure that a healthy Develin was the key to unlocking the power running game that was so effective near the end of last year I'd pick him over a 4th WR in a heartbeat. Unfortunately there are just too many variables involved there - a potential decline/injury with Sony, the transition from Gronk to replacement level TEs, general churn on the offensive line, or the simple fact that teams are expecting the running game whenever Sony is in the game.

I think this decision will ultimately be made by whomever is healthy, but assuming all three end up healthy I'd have to take Wynn and Harry. Wynn looked excellent in his limited action so far and offensive line depth is worth it's weight in gold this year, and the odds of both Edelman and Gordon staying on the field through January can't be much better than 50-50. Even if Harry is nothing more than insurance, there's value there. I'm pinning my hopes on the issues with the power running game being primarily something other than Develin's absence.
 

lambeau

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So the bottom line is if BB leaves Harry on IR, he is gambling no receiver goes down during the last eight games plus playoffs, and nobody here wants to take that chance. So Develin is the odd man out.
 

BaseballJones

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So the bottom line is if BB leaves Harry on IR, he is gambling no receiver goes down during the last eight games plus playoffs, and nobody here wants to take that chance. So Develin is the odd man out.
Well they still have Meredith as another possibility, right? He's on PUP, so he's eligible to come back at the WR spot if needed. No idea what his health status is but that's another avenue they could take, I think.
 

Bowhemian

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I am less worried about JJs blocking as how he will be in the passing game. Splitting Develin out wide was a pretty helpful wrinkle to the offense as he was good enough to be a threat and needed to be accounted for.

Aside:is there a position in the NFL you would be less likely to want your kid to play then FB? I get that all these guys take damage and screw the rest of their lives up. But FBs. Good lord.
Re: the bolded, defenses have to account for any player lined up as a receiver. They can't just leave him out there uncovered. Not sure what your point is there, although obviously we don't really know how much of a threat JJ is as a receiver. But he has got to be at least competent.
 

SeoulSoxFan

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So the bottom line is if BB leaves Harry on IR, he is gambling no receiver goes down during the last eight games plus playoffs, and nobody here wants to take that chance. So Develin is the odd man out.
The next WR up is Myers. Then it's Gunner or (more likely) a trade/FA pickup. With no Andrews & Gronk, I thought Develin was an even bigger factor in the run game this year. I'd take that over any advantage Harry has over Myers.
 

bakahump

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And Familiar with the EP system/calls/routes/reads. So being able to catch is only part of the requirements to be a Patriots WR.
 

SeoulSoxFan

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Way too ahead of the game but here's a list of WRs on last year on their contracts (may not be completely up to date):
  • Michael Thomas (27)
  • A.J Green (32)
  • Emmanuel Sanders (33)
  • Tyler Boyd (26)
  • Amari Cooper (26)
  • Robbie Anderson (27)
  • Larry Fitzgerald (37)
  • Devin Funchess (26)
  • Geronimo Allison (24)
  • Tyreek Hill (26)
  • Allen Hurns (28)
  • DeVante Parker (27)
  • Randall Cobb (30)
  • Danny Amendola (34)
  • Breshad Perriman (26)
  • Willie Snead (27)
  • Chester Rodgers (26)
  • Demaryius Thomas (32)
  • Josh Doctson (27)
  • Nelson Agholor (27)
  • Josh Gordon (29)
 

E5 Yaz

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Way too ahead of the game but here's a list of WRs on last year on their contracts (may not be completely up to date):
  • Michael Thomas (27)
  • A.J Green (32)
  • Emmanuel Sanders (33)
  • Tyler Boyd (26)
  • Amari Cooper (26)
  • Robbie Anderson (27)
  • Larry Fitzgerald (37)
  • Devin Funchess (26)
  • Geronimo Allison (24)
  • Tyreek Hill (26)
  • Allen Hurns (28)
  • DeVante Parker (27)
  • Randall Cobb (30)
  • Danny Amendola (34)
  • Breshad Perriman (26)
  • Willie Snead (27)
  • Chester Rodgers (26)
  • Demaryius Thomas (32)
  • Josh Doctson (27)
  • Nelson Agholor (27)
  • Josh Gordon (29)
Didn't Tyreke Hill sign an extension?
 

lambeau

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Activating Harry would not be to upgrade over Jakobi so much as to have a WR4 available if Gordon or Edelman were to go down.
 
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AJ Green, give his age and contract, the Bengals record and the performance of Ross and Boyd, is an appealing possibility target if he gets back to full health.
 

Oppo

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JJ is going to make a big play in a SB win, prompting an outcry of an unfair advantage. No other logical occurrence.
 

ehaz

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Way too ahead of the game but here's a list of WRs on last year on their contracts (may not be completely up to date):
  • Michael Thomas (27)
  • A.J Green (32)
  • Emmanuel Sanders (33)
  • Tyler Boyd (26)
  • Amari Cooper (26)
  • Robbie Anderson (27)
  • Larry Fitzgerald (37)
  • Devin Funchess (26)
  • Geronimo Allison (24)
  • Tyreek Hill (26)
  • Allen Hurns (28)
  • DeVante Parker (27)
  • Randall Cobb (30)
  • Danny Amendola (34)
  • Breshad Perriman (26)
  • Willie Snead (27)
  • Chester Rodgers (26)
  • Demaryius Thomas (32)
  • Josh Doctson (27)
  • Nelson Agholor (27)
  • Josh Gordon (29)
I'm pretty sure DeVante Parker signed an extension as well, but he is someone I'd be interested in. So much talent overshadowed by a shitty franchise.
 

lexrageorge

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My working assumption is that the Patriots medical staff has way more information on the severity of the injuries than the media. If they put Develin on the IR, it meant they were comfortable with the possibility that either (a) he would not be coming back; (b) were less confident in Wynn or Harry returning; or (c) felt they could live without one of those players. "Non-serious" herniated disk can mean many things; for a guy like Develin, it could still be season ending.

They could have kept him inactive for a few weeks. Or they could have cut Wise or someone else to make room for another active player. The fact they did not should tell us what we need to know. My guess is that Develin is done for the year, no matter how much we feel the team will miss him.
 

DJnVa

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So the bottom line is if BB leaves Harry on IR, he is gambling no receiver goes down during the last eight games plus playoffs, and nobody here wants to take that chance. So Develin is the odd man out.
Eh. As of now, Maurice Harris is still a free agent. There will be folks available.
 

DaveRoberts'Shoes

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Wouldn't be surprised if Develin got an epidural injection to treat his symptoms, which would keep him out for at least a month, so the IR makes sense and he could come back if they want him to
 

E5 Yaz

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Wouldn't be surprised if Develin got an epidural injection to treat his symptoms, which would keep him out for at least a month, so the IR makes sense and he could come back if they want him to
That's only worth five bucks. For the remainder, what's the deal with Wynn's turf toe?
 

Super Nomario

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That dude Meredith is still on PUP. 70 catches for the Bears two years ago. He’ll be back in a few weeks.
It was three years ago. Then he missed the whole season in 2017, only played six games in 2018, and is currently on PUP. So there's some talent there, but I'm not sure they can count on him for much.

But his isn't a DTR? Because he was on PUP the entire preseason?
He's on PUP, not IR, so the rules are a little different and he doesn't count towards the returnees.
 

bankshot1

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Given the strength of the defense, I'd like to get Wynn and Devlin back, protect the crown jewel, and to bolster the running game and have a team that can theoretically chew big chunks of time and yards late and deep into the season.
 

E5 Yaz

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Given the strength of the defense, I'd like to get Wynn and Devlin back, protect the crown jewel, and to bolster the running game and have a team that can theoretically chew big chunks of time and yards late and deep into the season.
This presumes that both of them, especially Devlin, will be as effective as they were before their injuries
 

bankshot1

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This presumes that both of them, especially Devlin, will be as effective as they were before their injuries
That would be true of any player coming back from an injury. But my preference is premised on what I see as the strengths and weaknesses of the team and to how best to address them if given the choice. I think a heathy tackle and fullback best address O-line depth, protecting Brady, helping the running game, and is complemetary to a stifling defense that may not require the offense to score a lot of points quickly.
 

Soxy

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I really hope N'Keal Harry ends up on the field at some point this season. He had one bad practice where he had 3-4 drops, and the national media seemed to take that and run with the story that he had a tough training camp. But the local scribes couldn't stop raving about the highlight reel catches this kid was making. It got to the point where local beat guys were saying that he makes at least one jaw dropping catch every day in practice. The one time that we saw him in pre-season, he seemed to look the part (for, like, two catches, but still).

I guess that's a long-winded way of saying, all things being equal (which they aren't, in reality, but we're mostly guessing as to the true extent of these injuries), I'd take the 1st round pick who some considered to be the best WR in the draft over an O-lineman who hasn't been able to stay healthy in two years, or a 31 year old FB.

And that's even acknowledging, as I said before the season started, and it's even more true now, that O-line depth is the biggest weakness on this team. You can never have too many skill-position playmakers on offense, especially when Kansas City stands between you and the Super Bowl. I have faith Scar can figure out the O-line, as long as they don't continue getting eviscerated with injuries there.
 

mcpickl

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My working assumption is that the Patriots medical staff has way more information on the severity of the injuries than the media. If they put Develin on the IR, it meant they were comfortable with the possibility that either (a) he would not be coming back; (b) were less confident in Wynn or Harry returning; or (c) felt they could live without one of those players. "Non-serious" herniated disk can mean many things; for a guy like Develin, it could still be season ending.

They could have kept him inactive for a few weeks. Or they could have cut Wise or someone else to make room for another active player. The fact they did not should tell us what we need to know. My guess is that Develin is done for the year, no matter how much we feel the team will miss him.
I agree with this.

The Patriots surely know one of the three guys we're talking about is hurt worse than the media currently knows and doesn't have a chance to return this year. My guess is Develin is the one.

It's not like they're hurting for roster spots. They had 2 guys that were healthy scratches and 2 more than were out for births of their children this week.
 

BusRaker

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Way too ahead of the game but here's a list of WRs on last year on their contracts (may not be completely up to date):
  • Michael Thomas (27)
  • A.J Green (32)
  • Emmanuel Sanders (33)
  • Tyler Boyd (26)
  • Amari Cooper (26)
  • Robbie Anderson (27)
  • Larry Fitzgerald (37)
  • Devin Funchess (26)
  • Geronimo Allison (24)
  • Tyreek Hill (26)
  • Allen Hurns (28)
  • DeVante Parker (27)
  • Randall Cobb (30)
  • Danny Amendola (34)
  • Breshad Perriman (26)
  • Willie Snead (27)
  • Chester Rodgers (26)
  • Demaryius Thomas (32)
  • Josh Doctson (27)
  • Nelson Agholor (27)
  • Josh Gordon (29)
Is Antonio Brown an intentional omission? Too soon?

Edit: I know he'll never be a Pat but I'd have to imagine some team will eventual give him a chance
 
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Jinhocho

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Just about every single time Develin was mentioned on TV for a great block was a play that made me cringe a bit watching him.
All the banged heads of offensive linemen, but with a running start.
I know a little about this issue, since my wife is one of the researchers on one of the two big NFL concussion grants. It seems that there is a protective mechanism when men tens up their necks and upper body in anticipation of a crash or hit. That helps protect the brain. The danger and risk are much higher when you dont see the impact coming, even if it a less hard hit. Absent that tensing up the brain gets bounced around pretty good.
 

Rough Carrigan

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I know a little about this issue, since my wife is one of the researchers on one of the two big NFL concussion grants. It seems that there is a protective mechanism when men tens up their necks and upper body in anticipation of a crash or hit. That helps protect the brain. The danger and risk are much higher when you dont see the impact coming, even if it a less hard hit. Absent that tensing up the brain gets bounced around pretty good.
Thank you. That's interesting.