Anyone wanna read between the lines?
“Chris, I think, needs a couple of days to himself at this point,” Dombrowski said.
“Chris, I think, needs a couple of days to himself at this point,” Dombrowski said.
He’s a human being dealing with a painful and potentially devastating personal and professional setback and wants a few days to himself to process it before being asked to speculate by a bunch of people he doesn’t have personal relationships with?Anyone wanna read between the lines?
“Chris, I think, needs a couple of days to himself at this point,” Dombrowski said.
Play for a repeat in 2019 and let the chips fall where they may in 2020. Lance Lynn signed last offseason for 3-$30. I’m sure sure where you see Keuchel getting 3-$45 after he didn’t get it last year.so his options for 2020 were:
1) Extend Sale
2) Play out 2019 and risk Sale asking for >$200m
3) Let Sale walk and hope you’re the high bidder for Wheeler or Bumgarner for roughly Sale money (5/$125)
4) Let Sale walk and be the high bidder for a risky 3/4 starter like Hamels, Gibson, Keuchel, and/or Odorizzi at around 3-4 years and $45-60m
5) Trade a position player for a young starter last winter without going over the tax limit, his assets being a) five years of Devers, b) two years of Betts (at around $50m), c) four years of Benintendi, d) two years of Bradley, or e) Michael Chavis, who had no value and was seen as a toxic asset
What would you have done?
Yep, IF Tommy John is in play here have it ASAP and come back in 2021. Can you imagine Sale coming back better than before like some of the guys who return from TJ? As for the extension hate up thread, I'll reserve judgement until we're at least a couple years into it.TJ surgery has him healthy around December 2020 and good for Spring Training. The Red Sox need to act if that’s the diagnosis and not try to luck out with alternative measures. Gambling and delay might bleed into the 2021 season.
You are a hindsight visionary. If you could turn back time, if you could find a way, you would undoubtedly be the wealthiest person in the world.Play for a repeat in 2019 and let the chips fall where they may in 2020. Lance Lynn signed last offseason for 3-$30. I’m sure sure where you see Keuchel getting 3-$45 after he didn’t get it last year.
But anything would have been better than hamstringing my team with $145 more million of dead money, to go with 3 more years of age 32+ David Price, who also has wrist/elbow/forearm issues.
ur prolly not serious but Sox trying to void Sale's K may be egregious enough to get into bad faith / sanctions / punitive damages.Punitive damages for breaching a contract? Tell me more. Or does that only happen if you eat lots of pizza?
I think GS was referring to severity of injury, mostly in reaction to people suggesting that it may be a simple consult with Dr. Andrews.He’s a human being dealing with a painful and potentially devastating personal and professional setback and wants a few days to himself to process it before being asked to speculate by a bunch of people he doesn’t have personal relationships with?
You’re sidestepping the question. There’s a relatively small set of options and a finite universe of players available. What exactly does “let the chips fall where they may” mean? Just re-sign Wade Miley?Play for a repeat in 2019 and let the chips fall where they may in 2020. Lance Lynn signed last offseason for 3-$30. I’m sure sure where you see Keuchel getting 3-$45 after he didn’t get it last year.
But anything would have been better than hamstringing my team with $145 more million of dead money, to go with 3 more years of age 32+ David Price, who also has wrist/elbow/forearm issues.
can we at least know what the injury actually is before we decide it's 5 years of dead money?Play for a repeat in 2019 and let the chips fall where they may in 2020. Lance Lynn signed last offseason for 3-$30. I’m sure sure where you see Keuchel getting 3-$45 after he didn’t get it last year.
But anything would have been better than hamstringing my team with $145 more million of dead money, to go with 3 more years of age 32+ David Price, who also has wrist/elbow/forearm issues.
Fuck Wade Miley. He ruined Pedro's number retirement night, and I will never forgive him.You’re sidestepping the question. There’s a relatively small set of options and a finite universe of players available. What exactly does “let the chips fall where they may” mean? Just re-sign Wade Miley?
It's his team, he gets to determine that. It's sort of like determining who won or lost a trade when a couple of the key elements haven't even played an MLB inning.can we at least know what the injury actually is before we decide it's 5 years of dead money?
He really misses Chicago pizzerias.Anyone wanna read between the lines?
“Chris, I think, needs a couple of days to himself at this point,” Dombrowski said.
Not one iota of hindsight. It’s all on the record back in February/March.You are a hindsight visionary. If you could turn back time, if you could find a way, you would undoubtedly be the wealthiest person in the world.
No, you’re not accepting the option I gave.You’re sidestepping the question. There’s a relatively small set of options and a finite universe of players available. What exactly does “let the chips fall where they may” mean? Just re-sign Wade Miley?
And the best part about this plan is that Ellsbury should be back on the market after 2020, so you can build around him going forward as you so vocally wanted to.Go for it all in 2019, reset in 2020. Let Sale walk, trade Bradley and Betts. Sign a bunch of fliers like they did in 2013. See what happens. If they’re bad, so be it. Sell at the deadline some more. Reset the luxury tax. Get a high draft pick and try not to blow it again.
Here comes the pizza.Sorry folks. It was a reactionary post, which is why I took off for a few hours afterward. I'm leaving it up because I deserved all the snark.
I still think he's too slight for the stress he puts on his frame, but I guess there are also burgers and fries if he doesn't want to eat that much pizza. He should consult with Dr. Nick.
yup, should have kept Cherington around to do thatNo, you’re not accepting the option I gave.
Go for it all in 2019, reset in 2020. Let Sale walk, trade Bradley and Betts. Sign a bunch of fliers like they did in 2013. See what happens. If they’re bad, so be it. Sell at the deadline some more. Reset the luxury tax. Get a high draft pick and try not to blow it again.
Ouch. Plympton, I've got some aloe vera in the medicine cabinet if you need it....And the best part about this plan is that Ellsbury should be back on the market after 2020, so you can build around him going forward as you so vocally wanted to.
Great, go look at the 2020 free agent list and tell us who next year’s Victorino is, who the Dempster is, who the Napoli is, and which modern day Koji is ready to sign with us at 1/$4.5m.No, you’re not accepting the option I gave.
Go for it all in 2019, reset in 2020. Let Sale walk, trade Bradley and Betts. Sign a bunch of fliers like they did in 2013. See what happens. If they’re bad, so be it. Sell at the deadline some more. Reset the luxury tax. Get a high draft pick and try not to blow it again.
Not one iota of hindsight. It’s all on the record back in February/March.
I posted it was a mistake even before they finalized the contract, which you know.
The bigger the discount he was willing to take, the more convinced I was that he was unsure of his own health. Should have been a gigantic flashing red light.
This is just sophistry. The fact that Sale is hurt now does not prove that he was hurt when he agreed to the contract, and it doesn't prove that you were right that they should have viewed his willingness to accept that deal as a sign that he was "unsure of his own health."Not one iota of hindsight. It’s all on the record back in February/March.
I posted it was a mistake even before they finalized the contract, which you know.
The bigger the discount he was willing to take, the more convinced I was that he was unsure of his own health. Should have been a gigantic flashing red light.
Well, particularly since the injury that had us all spooked about signing him was to his shoulder, not his elbow. Of course it's possible that there's a domino effect there, that pitching with a bum shoulder has put extra stress on the elbow somehow. But it's also possible that the two are unrelated.This is just sophistry. The fact that Sale is hurt now does not prove that he was hurt when he agreed to the contract, and it doesn't prove that you were right that they should have viewed his willingness to accept that deal as a sign that he was "unsure of his own health."
On the flip side, pretty amazing than Xander has been able to tough it out this season given the injury he must surely have had which would have motivated him to sign his extension.This is just sophistry. The fact that Sale is hurt now does not prove that he was hurt when he agreed to the contract, and it doesn't prove that you were right that they should have viewed his willingness to accept that deal as a sign that he was "unsure of his own health."
Well, we have him under contract for 2020, and our 2020 rotation looks like a shambles right now, and given that this isn't the most attractive market for FA starting pitching, it's not clear what we'd do to patch that up. Maybe we could improve the rotation by trade, but it's hard to see how that would work with a weak farm system. MLBer for MLBer trades are pretty rare.Any Mookie trade better include a player or two who can help us right away AND some awesome prospects.
I would never move him for strictly prospects
I think the idea would be that you use the ~$30M he's owed in arbitration to buy stuff that is helpful in 2020, which is probably a starting pitcher from the group of Gerrit Cole, Cole Hamels, Tanner Roark, Zack Wheeler, Kyle Gibson, etc, perhaps with money left over for an outfielder and a reliever.Well, we have him under contract for 2020, and our 2020 rotation looks like a shambles right now, and given that this isn't the most attractive market for FA starting pitching, it's not clear what we'd do to patch that up. Maybe we could improve the rotation by trade, but it's hard to see how that would work with a weak farm system. MLBer for MLBer trades are pretty rare.
If you have ~$30M to spend and expect to have money left over after signing a starting pitcher, cross Gerrit Cole off the list. He's not getting less than $25M and probably is looking at something just shy of Verlander/Greinke/Kershaw/Price/Scherzer kind of money ($30M).I think the idea would be that you use the ~$30M he's owed in arbitration to buy stuff that is helpful in 2020, which is probably a starting pitcher from the group of Gerrit Cole, Cole Hamels, Tanner Roark, Zack Wheeler, Kyle Gibson, etc, perhaps with money left over for an outfielder and a reliever.
Yeah, I'm with Red(s)HawksFan on this one. We can't (realistically) turn this roster, without Sale, into a WS contender just by shopping in the FA market. We could probably afford to deal Betts for prospects and then sign Wheeler and/or Hamels, but those guys are risky propositions in different ways (health, age).I think the idea would be that you use the ~$30M he's owed in arbitration to buy stuff that is helpful in 2020, which is probably a starting pitcher from the group of Gerrit Cole, Cole Hamels, Tanner Roark, Zack Wheeler, Kyle Gibson, etc, perhaps with money left over for an outfielder and a reliever.
If Sale’s out for 2020, nvalvo’s plan is a good one. Two things I’d add/change:Yeah, I'm with Red(s)HawksFan on this one. We can't (realistically) turn this roster, without Sale, into a WS contender just by shopping in the FA market. We could probably afford to deal Betts for prospects and then sign Wheeler and/or Hamels, but those guys are risky propositions in different ways (health, age).
How many of a Price Hamels Rodriguez Wheeler Eovaldi rotation would you expect to make 30 starts?
Did Xander Bogarts miss most the last third of the 2018 season and end the season unable to start a World Series game even on 5 days rest?On the flip side, pretty amazing than Xander has been able to tough it out this season given the injury he must surely have had which would have motivated him to sign his extension.
I think the idea would be that you use the ~$30M he's owed in arbitration to buy stuff that is helpful in 2020, which is probably a starting pitcher from the group of Gerrit Cole, Cole Hamels, Tanner Roark, Zack Wheeler, Kyle Gibson, etc, perhaps with money left over for an outfielder and a reliever.
Yeah, I'm with Red(s)HawksFan on this one. We can't (realistically) turn this roster, without Sale, into a WS contender just by shopping in the FA market. We could probably afford to deal Betts for prospects and then sign Wheeler and/or Hamels, but those guys are risky propositions in different ways (health, age).
How many of a Price Hamels Rodriguez Wheeler Eovaldi rotation would you expect to make 30 starts?
2 inning quality openers are pretty rare but also I think you underestimate how hard it is to just throw money at relievers and have them be really good. Yahoo did a list a day or two ago of every FA reliever who signed for more than $5M last winter, and almost all of them have been duds:What the Oakland A’s and Tampa Bay Rays are proving is that you don’t really need 5 good starting pitchers anymore. With Price, EdRo, and hopefully a healthy and consistently used Eovaldi, they’d be fine. Spend the money or some trade chips on three great 2-inning relievers who can be “openers” and see what happens.
View: https://youtu.be/NkCa49I6_xwYeah, I'm with Red(s)HawksFan on this one. We can't (realistically) turn this roster, without Sale, into a WS contender just by shopping in the FA market. We could probably afford to deal Betts for prospects and then sign Wheeler and/or Hamels, but those guys are risky propositions in different ways (health, age).
How many of a Price Hamels Rodriguez Wheeler Eovaldi rotation would you expect to make 30 starts?
I was looking at a list somewhere that showed 37 guys signed major league deals for various salaries from league minimum to the Kimbrel deal and I think there was something like 2 decent performances in it, and something like half of them have been released this season.Yahoo did a list a day or two ago of every FA reliever who signed for more than $5M last winter, and almost all of them have been duds:
Yes, but in order to do this effectively, you need to sign/trade for the right relievers, and that does not seem to be a strength of this FO as presently constituted.What the Oakland A’s and Tampa Bay Rays are proving is that you don’t really need 5 good starting pitchers anymore. With Price, EdRo, and hopefully a healthy and consistently used Eovaldi, they’d be fine. Spend the money or some trade chips on three great 2-inning relievers who can be “openers” and see what happens.
Or pursue a strategy where you prioritize building/maintaining depth over signing/trading for specific elite players regardless of the value proposition, which does not seem to be the strategy of this ownership group as presently constituted.Yes, but in order to do this effectively, you need to sign/trade for the right relievers, and that does not seem to be a strength of this FO as presently constituted.
Has there ever been a "simple consult" with Dr. Andrews? That's like saying I'm going to visit Hell to check the place out.I think GS was referring to severity of injury, mostly in reaction to people suggesting that it may be a simple consult with Dr. Andrews.
Isn't there a theory that elbow issues are generally preceded by loss of location, not loss of velocity? If so, could explain Sale's season.
There are two examples in the thread of this very team receiving less-than-dire news from him: Josh Beckett (2008) and David Price (2017). Granted, both spent time on the shelf, but he didn't recommend surgery to either of them.Has there ever been a "simple consult" with Dr. Andrews? That's like saying I'm going to visit Hell to check the place out.
I also don't recall a single second consultation with Andrews that resulted in, "Nah, team doc was wrong. You're all set now get out there on your 5th day."
Not only did he not recommend surgery, but neither one ever had elbow surgery, even years later. Obviously Price still has a few years to go, but both of them demonstrate that going to Andrews does not automatically mean surgery is imminent or necessary.There are two examples in the thread of this very team receiving less-than-dire news from him: Josh Beckett (2008) and David Price (2017). Granted, both spent time on the shelf, but he didn't recommend surgery to either of them.
https://boston.cbslocal.com/2013/07/22/dr-james-andrews-finds-no-structural-damage-for-clay-buchholz/Has there ever been a "simple consult" with Dr. Andrews? That's like saying I'm going to visit Hell to check the place out.
I also don't recall a single second consultation with Andrews that resulted in, "Nah, team doc was wrong. You're all set now get out there on your 5th day."
Yes. The whole idea behind strategies like using an opener is (or should be) to maximize the value of affordable, non-elite pitchers by shaping roles to their abilities, so you don't have to pay a premium for pitchers to fit predetermined roles.Or pursue a strategy where you prioritize building/maintaining depth over signing/trading for specific elite players regardless of the value proposition, which does not seem to be the strategy of this ownership group as presently constituted.
The unstated premise here (if it had been out of the ordinary and concerning, he would have spoken up immediately) suggests assumptions about human psychology that no doubt apply to many people, but certainly not to everybody. Many of us (I plead guilty) would be less likely to report an issue immediately if we feared it was career-threatening. I don't know if Chris Sale is that kind of person or the other, more rational kind.Based on what I've read and seen about Sale's elbow, he noticed tightness the day after his last start but not something that was so out of the ordinary to be concerning since it took him another couple days to tell the team docs (he reported it after it didn't go away). I'm not a doctor, but that doesn't strike me as a clear indication that surgery is required. The panic is basically that he's a pitcher and it's his elbow. I'm choosing to remain optimistic that it's minor and they're just proceeding with caution.
We are not the Florida MarlinsNo, you’re not accepting the option I gave.
Go for it all in 2019, reset in 2020. Let Sale walk, trade Bradley and Betts. Sign a bunch of fliers like they did in 2013. See what happens. If they’re bad, so be it. Sell at the deadline some more. Reset the luxury tax. Get a high draft pick and try not to blow it again.
Right, the Marlins would skip the step of, “sign a bunch of fliers like we did in 2013 [to try to compete] and see what happens.”We are not the Florida Marlins
My apologies for singling out your post, but when I hear "not a strength" or "blow it again", I will point out that the current ownership group's strategy has resulted in 4 World Series titles. I think most posters, although certainly not all apparently, rather have those than be Tampa.Or pursue a strategy where you prioritize building/maintaining depth over signing/trading for specific elite players regardless of the value proposition, which does not seem to be the strategy of this ownership group as presently constituted.
There is no way he wouldn't disclose any tightness or soreness to the coaches. Trying to pitch through it could turn a 2 or 3 week recovery into Tommy John surgery. If I was the Sox management and he told me, "By the way, it started to hurt 2 weeks ago" I would go bellistic. He's a $145M investment and the Sox have every right to decide when he can pitch and when he needs to be shutdown.Yes. The whole idea behind strategies like using an opener is (or should be) to maximize the value of affordable, non-elite pitchers by shaping roles to their abilities, so you don't have to pay a premium for pitchers to fit predetermined roles.
The unstated premise here (if it had been out of the ordinary and concerning, he would have spoken up immediately) suggests assumptions about human psychology that no doubt apply to many people, but certainly not to everybody. Many of us (I plead guilty) would be less likely to report an issue immediately if we feared it was career-threatening. I don't know if Chris Sale is that kind of person or the other, more rational kind.
I think this comment is more worrisome than the simple fact he’s seeing Dr. Andrews. Unless I’m misreading it (and I might be), Dombrowski is suggesting that the preliminary tests indicated that Sale will need surgery.Anyone wanna read between the lines?
“Chris, I think, needs a couple of days to himself at this point,” Dombrowski said.