Leonard and George to Clippers

Sprowl

mikey lowell of the sandbox
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Never ever underestimate Jerry West.
Kawhi and Paul go home to Californ-I-AY

So hoist up the Clippers’ sail
See how the main sail sets
Call for the Logo ashore
Let me go home, let me go home
I want to go home, let me go home
Why don't you let me go home
(Hoist up the Clippers’ sail)
 

The Social Chair

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INJECT THIS IN MY VEINS

@criscarter80
All the information that leaked from Magic’s conversations with Kawhi team didn’t help the Lakers case.
 

DeadlySplitter

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Marc Stein has the pick details.

[B]Marc Stein[/B]‏Verified account @[B]TheSteinLine[/B] 24m24 minutes ago
OKC acquired THREE unprotected first-round picks from the Clippers in this trade (2022, 2024 and 2026), league sources say, PLUS two firsts from Miami (2021 unprotected and 2023 protected 1-to-14) ... AND the right to swap picks with the Clips in 2023 and 2025. Staggering

2021: Miami unprotected
2022: Clippers unprotected
2023: option to swap with Clippers, Miami lottery protected
2024: Clippers unprotected
2025: option to swap with Clippers
2026: Clippers unprotected

In five of the next seven drafts, the Thunder currently gain a first round pick. 2023 two of them. George is signed through 2021, Kawhi is signed through 2023. depending on when the double draft is, the Clippers may have given up all their first round pick(s) for that one.
 

lovegtm

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Marc Stein has the pick details.

[B]Marc Stein[/B]‏Verified account @[B]TheSteinLine[/B] 24m24 minutes ago
OKC acquired THREE unprotected first-round picks from the Clippers in this trade (2022, 2024 and 2026), league sources say, PLUS two firsts from Miami (2021 unprotected and 2023 protected 1-to-14) ... AND the right to swap picks with the Clips in 2023 and 2025. Staggering

2021: Miami unprotected
2022: Clippers unprotected
2023: option to swap with Clippers, Miami lottery protected
2024: Clippers unprotected
2025: option to swap with Clippers
2026: Clippers unprotected

In five of the next seven drafts, the Thunder currently gain a first round pick. 2023 two of them. George is signed through 2021, Kawhi is signed through 2023. depending on when the double draft is, the Clippers may have given up all their first round pick(s) for that one.
Welp, nobody was topping that.
 

benhogan

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The EC just got worse next season.

Toronto much worse
Milwaukee slightly worse
Phil flat
Celtics worse
Indy improved, (Oladipo injury dependent)
Brooklyn slightly better
Miami slightly better
 

lovegtm

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The EC just got worse next season.

Toronto much worse
Milwaukee slightly worse
Phil flat
Celtics worse
Indy improved, (Oladipo injury dependent)
Brooklyn slightly better
Miami slightly better
Yeah, this has all shaken out about as well as it could have for the Celtics, after Kyrie was out the door.
 

benhogan

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Yeah, this has all shaken out about as well as it could have for the Celtics, after Kyrie was out the door.
I'd say you can nail a stake through my Sabonis or Turner pipe dream.

It's Indy, Phil, and Mil.
but maybe Danny can pull something off by trade deadline if the team shows promise.

What's useful/available from the OKC carcass?
 

lovegtm

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"...and meanwhile, back at the model home, Masai Bluth was finally getting the chance to do that rebuild he'd always wanted."
 

lovegtm

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I'd say you can nail a stake through my Sabonis or Turner pipe dream.

It's Indy, Phil, and Mil.
but maybe Danny can pull something off by trade deadline if the team shows promise.

What's useful/available from the OKC carcass?
That's the case now for sure, but I'd say it's a mistake to think of the Celtics now as an actual team, or rank them. They're going to see what they have in guys like TL, see where Hayward's at, see how the Js look, and then if things are in place, they have a ton of moves they can make.

Re OKC--Adams is almost certainly available, they'd just have to wait until Dec 15 or whatever to have matching salaries.
 

benhogan

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That's the case now for sure, but I'd say it's a mistake to think of the Celtics now as an actual team, or rank them. They're going to see what they have in guys like TL, see where Hayward's at, see how the Js look, and then if things are in place, they have a ton of moves they can make.

Re OKC--Adams is almost certainly available, they'd just have to wait until Dec 15 or whatever to have matching salaries.
agreed. Lots of moving parts for Celtics, but if JJ and Hay show promise, we're back in business

Did Nerlens Noel ever sign? Looks like the LA Klutchers are done with their cap (Green, JaVale, KCP)
 

mauf

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Other than Lou Williams, who do the Clippers have surrounding PG13 and Kawhi? Not criticizing the move from their perspective, but I don’t see how this makes them favorites out West, any more than the AD deal alone made the Lakers favorites.
 

m0ckduck

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I was thinking that this must be the best tandem of superstars who have two first names. But then I realized that LeBron James and Dwayne Wade also qualify.

Hmm.
 

benhogan

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Other than Lou Williams, who do the Clippers have surrounding PG13 and Kawhi? Not criticizing the move from their perspective, but I don’t see how this makes them favorites out West, any more than the AD deal alone made the Lakers favorites.
two absolute dogs in Trez, Beverly

Shamet, Harkless, Zubac

Much more talent around these two then the Lakers
 

nighthob

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Other than Lou Williams, who do the Clippers have surrounding PG13 and Kawhi? Not criticizing the move from their perspective, but I don’t see how this makes them favorites out West, any more than the AD deal alone made the Lakers favorites.
I mean they only lost two players from last year’s roster, and are replacing them with the best player in the NBA and another top 10 guy. Now, reloading as they age out is going to be tough given the pick haul they sent out, but they’re focused on winning titles now, not the late 20s.
 

HowBoutDemSox

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The cherry on top is the Laker’s hubris in not trading for Paul George when he requested the trade from Indiana has come back and bitten them again. Not only did he spurn them in free agency to re-up in OKC, Kawhi then masterminded this move to get them both to the Clippers. Wow.
 

lovegtm

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The cherry on top is the Laker’s hubris in not trading for Paul George when he requested the trade from Indiana has come back and bitten them again. Not only did he spurn them in free agency to re-up in OKC, Kawhi then masterminded this move to get them both to the Clippers. Wow.
Yeah, it also turns out that the guy who lost the game of "Famous Celebrity X: Alive or Dead?!" isn't secretly an evil genius.
 

Nick Kaufman

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This is truly exciting.

A couple of random thoughts:

- Yes, the Clippers are going to be super competitive for the next couple of seasons. But after the middle of the decade, they should suck a great deal.

- Shouldn't OKC try trading Westbrook now as well? They are going nowhere, he's about to decline and I don't think his game ages well.
 

HowBoutDemSox

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I’ll say this, I’m loving the new ballsiness that were seeing in NBA front offices.
It’s funny how trading unprotected first rounders became such a rarity after the Nets/Celtics deal, but we’ve seen a few trades in the last year (this PG deal, Lakers and AD, Mavs and the Zinger) in which teams decided unprotected pick(s) were worth the talent.
 

Devizier

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A couple of things to note

1) This doesn't happen if the Clippers don't make their push for the playoffs last season.
2) Conversely the Lakers mini-tank last year probably didn't help their case (although the front office tire fire is probably a bigger factor)
3) There is going to be some terrible basketball in LA circa ~10 years from now.
 

mauf

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Shouldn't OKC try trading Westbrook now as well? They are going nowhere, he's about to decline and I don't think his game ages well.
From a purely basketball perspective, yes.

But they do need to sell tickets, and RWB is the face of the franchise. If he requests a trade they’ll oblige, but if not, I’d expect him to stay put.
 

lovegtm

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From a purely basketball perspective, yes.

But they do need to sell tickets, and RWB is the face of the franchise. If he requests a trade they’ll oblige, but if not, I’d expect him to stay put.
The competing factor there is that they just traded for SGA. They also are going to want to start cutting salary (luxury tax matters a lot more to the health of their franchise than immediate ticket sales). That need to dump salary hurts/destroys their ability to build a competitive team around him.

I’d be willing to bet significant money that Russ is not on the roster this time next year.
 

HomeRunBaker

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It’s funny how trading unprotected first rounders became such a rarity after the Nets/Celtics deal, but we’ve seen a few trades in the last year (this PG deal, Lakers and AD, Mavs and the Zinger) in which teams decided unprotected pick(s) were worth the talent.
This is brilliant by West and the Clippers. The “haul” of picks is only in the raw number of them with the large majority projecting to be in the mid-to-late 20’s......and picks that the Clippers don’t really even care about committing guaranteed money to most likely non-contributors.

The best chance of any of the picks providing significant value on its own seems to be the Miami one in two years.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I’d be willing to bet significant money that Russ is not on the roster this time next year.
I’m going with this time next WEEK. Once the Thunder make the decision to tear it down you have to completely tear it down. An injury to RWB would de devastating to the Thunder in the interim. I’ve got him going to the Bulls for a bunch of their young’s.
 

BaseballJones

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The competing factor there is that they just traded for SGA. They also are going to want to start cutting salary (luxury tax matters a lot more to the health of their franchise than immediate ticket sales). That need to dump salary hurts/destroys their ability to build a competitive team around him.

I’d be willing to bet significant money that Russ is not on the roster this time next year.
So if the Knicks made a play for Westbrook, it would likely include a bunch of picks, not too dissimilar to the George deal, right? Maybe not as many picks, but quite a few. But it would leave the Knicks with Westbrook, Randle, Barrett, Portis, Vonleh, Knox, Dennis Smith Jr, Bullock, Ellington, Gibson, etc.

I don't know if Westbrook and Smith could co-exist, so maybe Smith would get dealt for another good player (Smith definitely would have some value). But that roster would have some talent. Not sure the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, but that could be a competitive group.
 

lovegtm

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This is brilliant by West and the Clippers. The “haul” of picks is only in the raw number of them with the large majority projecting to be in the mid-to-late 20’s......and picks that the Clippers don’t really even care about committing guaranteed money to most likely non-contributors.

The best chance of any of the picks providing significant value on its own seems to be the Miami one in two years.
So that there's no confusion, I'm going to preface this by saying that the Clippers absolutely made the right move, they had to do it, and they're set up to compete for multiple championships for a good-sized window now.

However, even if mid to late 20s is the most likely outcome for these picks, the whole situation, as with the Lakers, is heavily correlated. If Kawhi's quad issues come back, or whatever, you're looking at a mediocre team in a competitive conference that has no way to get better for years. The problem then becomes not just that you don't have the picks, but that you don't have the picks you need to get better right now, and you end up in hell, just waiting for the 2026 pick to finish conveying so that you can be a normal franchise again.

This is exactly what happened to the Nets when it turned out that Deron Williams was cooked. He was never at Kawhi's level, but people forget how good he was. It's not that hard even now to find hundreds of Nets fans' posts, thinking that the swaps would be worthless, the picks would be in the late 20s, etc.

Again, the Clippers made the right move, and I like it a lot more for them than I like AD to the Lakers, because they kept depth. They also have the picks spaced better: their 2020 pick is free of obligations, so they'll be able to package that to get upgrades, and they also have nice pieces of salary to move along with that.

But it's really insane to me that anyone can confidently declare what picks from 5-7 years out will be worth, especially when their value rises and falls together, and when their being traded itself limits the ability of the team dealing them to lower their value.
 

lovegtm

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So if the Knicks made a play for Westbrook, it would likely include a bunch of picks, not too dissimilar to the George deal, right? Maybe not as many picks, but quite a few. But it would leave the Knicks with Westbrook, Randle, Barrett, Portis, Vonleh, Knox, Dennis Smith Jr, Bullock, Ellington, Gibson, etc.

I don't know if Westbrook and Smith could co-exist, so maybe Smith would get dealt for another good player (Smith definitely would have some value). But that roster would have some talent. Not sure the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, but that could be a competitive group.
It wouldn't be that many picks--Westbrook+his contract is maybe an asset, maybe, but not by much. He's already showing decline, and he has 3 years plus a $47M player option left.
 

mauf

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So that there's no confusion, I'm going to preface this by saying that the Clippers absolutely made the right move, they had to do it, and they're set up to compete for multiple championships for a good-sized window now.

However, even if mid to late 20s is the most likely outcome for these picks, the whole situation, as with the Lakers, is heavily correlated. If Kawhi's quad issues come back, or whatever, you're looking at a mediocre team in a competitive conference that has no way to get better for years. The problem then becomes not just that you don't have the picks, but that you don't have the picks you need to get better right now, and you end up in hell, just waiting for the 2026 pick to finish conveying so that you can be a normal franchise again.

This is exactly what happened to the Nets when it turned out that Deron Williams was cooked. He was never at Kawhi's level, but people forget how good he was. It's not that hard even now to find hundreds of Nets fans' posts, thinking that the swaps would be worthless, the picks would be in the late 20s, etc.

Again, the Clippers made the right move, and I like it a lot more for them than I like AD to the Lakers, because they kept depth. They also have the picks spaced better: their 2020 pick is free of obligations, so they'll be able to package that to get upgrades, and they also have nice pieces of salary to move along with that.

But it's really insane to me that anyone can confidently declare what picks from 5-7 years out will be worth, especially when their value rises and falls together, and when their being traded itself limits the ability of the team dealing them to lower their value.
A corollary of this is that a team in a top-2 market with a spendthrift owner isn’t guaranteed not to suck.

That said, the fact that it happened once doesn’t mean it’s likely to happen again.
 

lovegtm

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A corollary of this is that a team in a top-2 market with a spendthrift owner isn’t guaranteed not to suck.

That said, the fact that it happened once doesn’t mean it’s likely to happen again.
Of course not--I don't think that the Clippers are guaranteed to convey a #3, #1, and #8, and the most likely outcome is probably an average in the #15 range. I just think that people tend to overweight current performance of players, underweight injury/age uncertainty, and not properly factor in how having all your future assets owned by another team affects your probability of not sucking.
 

bosockboy

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Not that I’m not thrilled that LAL whiffed here, but holy God this is a terrible case of tampering. Kawhi went and tore PG out of OKC with his own two hands.
 

bowiac

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This is a bananas haul for Paul George, but I'm glad to see teams are becoming more creative in getting value back for their superstars who want out.

Clippers have the depth and surrounding pieces to become immediately great with such a move. I have them at 55 wins+ and the best team in the NBA right now. It's a big price, but I can see needing to do it to get Kawhi/George and maybe win a title while the league is in a reset phase. In contrast to the price the Lakers paid, the Clippers come out of this as title favorites, so I can't complain for them.

Love the deal for OKC too. Presti isn't my favorite GM, but he's done a very impressive job with the pivot.

What a world. Clippers and Nets land four of the biggest stars in the NBA in under a week.
 

jmm57

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It’s funny how trading unprotected first rounders became such a rarity after the Nets/Celtics deal, but we’ve seen a few trades in the last year (this PG deal, Lakers and AD, Mavs and the Zinger) in which teams decided unprotected pick(s) were worth the talent.
How much does this have to do with the lottery process becoming more random this year? Can’t be pure coincidence?
 

jmm57

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If anything, that should have made them less likely to be dealt.
It’s true. Should be adding top 3 or whatever to fringe playoff team picks. Could just be coincidence because it’s PG(with Kawhi on the line) and AD.

But now you can’t just poach a shitty teams pick and get top 2, you need to also get some lotto luck? It’s interesting though .

That unprotected Miami pick was the only unprotected pick owned in the NBA like two weeks ago, wasn’t it?
 

lovegtm

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This is a bananas haul for Paul George, but I'm glad to see teams are becoming more creative in getting value back for their superstars who want out.

Clippers have the depth and surrounding pieces to become immediately great with such a move. I have them at 55 wins+ and the best team in the NBA right now. It's a big price, but I can see needing to do it to get Kawhi/George and maybe win a title while the league is in a reset phase. In contrast to the price the Lakers paid, the Clippers come out of this as title favorites, so I can't complain for them.

Love the deal for OKC too. Presti isn't my favorite GM, but he's done a very impressive job with the pivot.

What a world. Clippers and Nets land four of the biggest stars in the NBA in under a week.
The key is that OKC did it before he demanded a trade, and was ready to do it at the moment of highest leverage, rather than doing the usual game of pretending you want to keep the guy and build around him, and then dumping him at the last minute.
 

lexrageorge

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So that there's no confusion, I'm going to preface this by saying that the Clippers absolutely made the right move, they had to do it, and they're set up to compete for multiple championships for a good-sized window now.

...

But it's really insane to me that anyone can confidently declare what picks from 5-7 years out will be worth, especially when their value rises and falls together, and when their being traded itself limits the ability of the team dealing them to lower their value.
+1

I truly believe that anyone that says those 2024-26 picks will be in their late-20's really doesn't know what they are talking about. When the 2026 draft rolls around, Kawhi will be ready to turn 35, and Paul George will have just turned 36. LeBron will likely be out of the league, and even Anthony Davis will be 33. Odds are against them being key pieces of a championship contender by then.

At the same time, it's not like the Clippers (and even the Lakers) are going to be one year wonders. The Clips will absolutely be contenders for at least the next 3-4 years, the Lakers for the next 2-3, pending good health (always a risk). And teams are not necessarily better served by waiting for the perfect moment. Predicting the draft talent pool that far out is impossible, and the lottery rules could be changed again. By 2026, the league's talent pool will look a lot different, with a new group of prime age stars and emerging talents. Maybe the Celtics will get lucky with Tatum being a first or second team All-NBA by then. I, for one, am glad Ainge did not fear the rebuild when he traded for KG.
 

mauf

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Of course not--I don't think that the Clippers are guaranteed to convey a #3, #1, and #8, and the most likely outcome is probably an average in the #15 range. I just think that people tend to overweight current performance of players, underweight injury/age uncertainty, and not properly factor in how having all your future assets owned by another team affects your probability of not sucking.
Oh, I wasn’t disagreeing with anything you said — just noting the parallel between Ballmer and Prokhorov. Part of the reasoning behind the KG/PP deal from the Brooklyn perspective was that ownership would always spend their way to respectability, if not contention, and I suspect a similar consideration is behind the Clips’ willingness to include that 2026 pick — the value of which, as you correctly note, is basically unknowable.