2019 Spring Training News

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What's their plan with him this year? His minor numbers were pretty eye-popping for a MI.
They're teaching him 1B this spring, so it sounds like he'll have full-time duties while rotating between 2B/1B/LF/RF. Zobrist-ian.

The contract is 6yrs/$24m plus 2 club option years that could add another $25m. That is an absolute steal for this kid if he pans out the way many expect.
 

jon abbey

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Wow, Eloy has yet to play in the bigs:

21m21 minutes ago
BREAKING NEWS: The White Sox are close to an agreement with Eloy Jimenez for an 8-year extension that would pay him between 65-70 US$ Million. With Incentives the contract could get to the 75-80 million Range. Source says deal is pending only a Physical.
 

nattysez

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This lets him play on Opening Day rather than having his service time manipulated a la Vlad Jr.
 

Plympton91

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This flurry of signings of low and no service time players almost seems fishy. Teams are getting out ahead of the collusion lawsuit and the next collective bargaining agreement. By lavishing money on these guys it bolsters their case that they just want to pay more for young players and less for old players.

On the one hand, that’s nice and reasonable. On the other hand, it’s still bullshit.

Teams are now negotiating with players who still have multiple years of indentured servitude ahead of them absent an agreement, rather than negotiating with free agents. The contracts signed by Bergman, Lowe, and Jimenez are not contracts between equal partners, they’re contracts between a parole board and a prisoner. Another analogy would be the teams are playing poker with an ace up their sleeve, and wanting everyone to call it a fair game.
 

Plympton91

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Better to pay these guys when they are young rather than when they are old.

This is how it should be.
Yes, but it has to be a free market to be a fair exchange of services. Teams can’t say, “Look how much Eloy Jimenez got! We are paying young players instead of old players!” What the White Sox have done is extorted Jimenez to sign a below market contract by exploiting their ability to pay him essentially nothing for 3 years and delay his free agency by a full season. Teams shouldn’t be allowed to use these contracts as a mitigating factor in a collision case or as a fig leaf in labor negotiations, unless they also agree to arbitration after 1 year, and let arbitrators compare offers to free agent contracts much sooner.

That would also have to come with enhanced revenue sharing and continued binding luxury tax thresholds, or it would really hurt competitive balance. But competitive balance is an ownership problem first and a players problem second.
 

jmm57

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Wow, Eloy has yet to play in the bigs:

21m21 minutes ago
BREAKING NEWS: The White Sox are close to an agreement with Eloy Jimenez for an 8-year extension that would pay him between 65-70 US$ Million. With Incentives the contract could get to the 75-80 million Range. Source says deal is pending only a Physical.
Rotoworld has 43 guaranteed over 6 years, last two years as team options. Seems like a great deal for Chicago? Having 43mil guaranteed as a 22 year old who was at least 3 years from real money doesn’t suck either.
 

Adrian's Dome

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Yes, but it has to be a free market to be a fair exchange of services. Teams can’t say, “Look how much Eloy Jimenez got! We are paying young players instead of old players!” What the White Sox have done is extorted Jimenez to sign a below market contract by exploiting their ability to pay him essentially nothing for 3 years and delay his free agency by a full season. Teams shouldn’t be allowed to use these contracts as a mitigating factor in a collision case or as a fig leaf in labor negotiations, unless they also agree to arbitration after 1 year, and let arbitrators compare offers to free agent contracts much sooner.

That would also have to come with enhanced revenue sharing and continued binding luxury tax thresholds, or it would really hurt competitive balance. But competitive balance is an ownership problem first and a players problem second.
They're also betting heavily on him, you know, succeeding. And not getting hurt. And not him just engaging the cruise control because he just got a huge guaranteed payday.

You call it extortion, reasonable people call it a compromise.
 

Plympton91

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They're also betting heavily on him, you know, succeeding. And not getting hurt. And not him just engaging the cruise control because he just got a huge guaranteed payday.

You call it extortion, reasonable people call it a compromise.
Is it a compromise when a 260 pound wrestler beats a 160 pound wrestler, but agrees not to choke him to death? That’s how lopsided the power structure is in a negotiation between a rookie and the team management.

You’re right that the team is betting on success. They have to do that when they negotiate with 26 year old international free agents like Rusney Castillo too. But that is a negotiation between equals.
 

jon abbey

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FWIW, Jimenez is supposedly not a very good defensive OF and may have to be moved to 1B/DH soon, which hurts his value.

Really good deal for him from my perspective, by far the biggest ever for a player already in a system who has yet to play in the bigs.
 

jon abbey

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From Kiley McDaniel's chat today on Fangraphs, they have been doing a lot of good research in prospect value the past year:

"Eloy is still going well but the body is pointing to 1B/DH pretty soon."

"Bret: $65-$70M extension for Eloy Jimenez over 8-years, per reports. Insane? Fair? Brilliant?

Kiley McDaniel: We pegged his 6 years of control as being worth about $55M via Craig Edwards research

Kiley McDaniel: so that seems like a nice chunk of change for Eloy and a nice discount for the good part of Eloy’s career for CHW"

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/kiley-mcdaniel-chat-3-20-19/
 

Adrian's Dome

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Is it a compromise when a 260 pound wrestler beats a 160 pound wrestler, but agrees not to choke him to death? That’s how lopsided the power structure is in a negotiation between a rookie and the team management.

You’re right that the team is betting on success. They have to do that when they negotiate with 26 year old international free agents like Rusney Castillo too. But that is a negotiation between equals.
Right, because it's not as if anything could potentially happen to a baseball player out of nowhere that could derail their entire career. Never seen that one play out before, the young guys with unlimited talent always make it to that first payday.

Again, you think of it as a power play, reasonable people see it as a compromise because Jimenez has yet to earn any leverage whatsoever.
 

jon abbey

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FWIW, Jimenez is only the third player ever to get a long-term deal as a guy already in the organization without playing a MLB game. The first two were Jon Singleton for the Astros (total dud) and then last yeat the Phillies signed Scott Kingery right before the season like this, and he proceeded to be so bad (-1.5 bWAR!) that he is already on the fringe of their plans one year later at 24, signed through 2023 and potentially controlled through 2026.
 

Lowrielicious

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Longoria had only 6 MLB games under his belt before his first big contract and a decent comp for Eloys minor league numbers. He turned out ok.
 

Plympton91

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Right, because it's not as if anything could potentially happen to a baseball player out of nowhere that could derail their entire career. Never seen that one play out before, the young guys with unlimited talent always make it to that first payday.

Again, you think of it as a power play, reasonable people see it as a compromise because Jimenez has yet to earn any leverage whatsoever.
The crux of the issue is, if Eloy Jimenez were a free agent, as he would have been in any other industry that doesn’t benefit from a government sanctioned monopsony and hampered by a union that sold off his rights as a human being looking for a first job, what would the contract he got look like? If you want to argue it would not be significantly larger, then I don’t think there’s a point in continuing the conversation.
 

amfox1

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Yes, adding him to Hader/Knebel/Jeffress is a great move for a team with SP shortcomings. I love the Brewers aggression.
Adam McCalvy‏ @AdamMcCalvy 13m13 minutes ago
Brewers reliever Corey Knebel will have his elbow examined today by Dr. Raasch. “There’s reason for concern,” Craig Counsell said.

Bob Nightengale @BNightengale 7m7 minutes ago
Now we know why #Brewers showing interest in Closer Craig Kimbrel with relievers Knebel and Jeremy Jeffress expected to open season on DL https://twitter.com/haudricourt/status/1108779009674870785 …
 

E5 Yaz

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A couple of days before his retirement, the arm was still there

 

nattysez

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extension season continues.

Jeff Passan‏Verified account @JeffPassan 13m13 minutes ago
BREAKING: Reigning AL Cy Young winner Blake Snell and the Tampa Bay Rays are in agreement on a five-year, $50 million contract extension, league sources tell ESPN. The deal runs through Snell's age-30 season and does not include any options.
This one proves P91's point even more than Eloy's deal did. Snell knew he was going to get completely screwed by the Rays for years -- he's taking less than he could get on the open market because his other choice was praying that he stayed healthy until free agency and that the arbitrator found for him every year.
 

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extension season continues.

Jeff Passan‏Verified account @JeffPassan 13m13 minutes ago
BREAKING: Reigning AL Cy Young winner Blake Snell and the Tampa Bay Rays are in agreement on a five-year, $50 million contract extension, league sources tell ESPN. The deal runs through Snell's age-30 season and does not include any options.
This is soooo good. The Rays know the CBA is going to change soon and shift more money to currently cost-controlled players, they are loaded with young talent and as of today their 2019 payroll is around $50m. I expect that Snell/Lowe won't be the end of it. They are going to lock in a core group of young talent several years out beyond the next CBA.
 

jon abbey

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"#STLCards close on an extension with 1B Paul Goldschmidt, sources tell The Athletic. Deal will be for at least five years and at least $110M."
 

glennhoffmania

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Also a fair point, and that's an interesting discussion I think. I was just pointing out what the poster was missing about Plymp's point.
Yes, definitely. I think that Snell is a better example of the problem. But I don't think a guy who has yet to play in the majors getting $50m should be viewed as extortion. However the system certainly has its flaws.
 

Boggs26

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For the same reason nobody in any workforce with zero experience does.

But hey, let's keep on with the indentured servitude talk.
Not to get too far down this rabbit hole, but to say he has zero experience is really stretching reality. He actually has 5 years of experience during which he steadily progressed through more and more high level "jobs".

Based on the results of those 5 years he is worth some amount of money in an open market (I don't know how much) and the question is whether that amount is greater than what he just signed in this decidedly closed market.
 

Adrian's Dome

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Not to get too far down this rabbit hole, but to say he has zero experience is really stretching reality. He actually has 5 years of experience during which he steadily progressed through more and more high level "jobs".

Based on the results of those 5 years he is worth some amount of money in an open market (I don't know how much) and the question is whether that amount is greater than what he just signed in this decidedly closed market.
Yeah, he's worth some amount of money in an open market, he and the team just agreed on it.

Which he was not forced in any way to do, the point being overlooked entirely here.

I do agree the system sucks (for guys that aren't going to ever get that big contract and guys who are on the back nine,) but not in this specific circumstance. Dude got life changing guaranteed money and the team is making a hard gamble. Instead of him having to bet on himself, the team bet on him. It's fair.
 

Plympton91

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Yeah, he's worth some amount of money in an open market, he and the team just agreed on it.

Which he was not forced in any way to do, the point being overlooked entirely here.

I do agree the system sucks (for guys that aren't going to ever get that big contract and guys who are on the back nine,) but not in this specific circumstance. Dude got life changing guaranteed money and the team is making a hard gamble. Instead of him having to bet on himself, the team bet on him. It's fair.
What did other teams offer him? Was it more or less?

If you graduate with a degree in computer science, is there a draft where Apple wins the right to pay you whatever they want for at least the next 7 and perhaps to as many as 15 years of your life (6 years to minor league FA, but then 3 option years if they put you on the 40 man, and then 6 more years of major league service time before FA), and Google and Amazon can’t even discuss future employment with you until those 7 to 15 years is up, let alone make an offer to you and have you leave right now.

Indentured servitude is exactly what it is. As the saying goes, whether you charge $50 or $5000 for sex, you’re still a prostitute. The analogy holds here.
 

Sad Sam Jones

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Danny Duffy, who's had multiple elbow injuries in the past and now enters the 2019 season with a shoulder issue, has discussed a move to the bullpen with the Royals. Kansas City locked Duffy up with a 5yr/$65M deal after the 2016 season, one year after they signed free agent Ian Kennedy to a 5yr/$70M deal. The small market rebuilding Royals might be paying $31.75M for two long relievers this year.

*
 

Adrian's Dome

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What did other teams offer him? Was it more or less?

If you graduate with a degree in computer science, is there a draft where Apple wins the right to pay you whatever they want for at least the next 7 and perhaps to as many as 15 years of your life (6 years to minor league FA, but then 3 option years if they put you on the 40 man, and then 6 more years of major league service time before FA), and Google and Amazon can’t even discuss future employment with you until those 7 to 15 years is up, let alone make an offer to you and have you leave right now.

Indentured servitude is exactly what it is. As the saying goes, whether you charge $50 or $5000 for sex, you’re still a prostitute. The analogy holds here.
"Jesus Christ, it's like a whole army of strawmen", as someone on here once said.
 

Boggs26

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"Jesus Christ, it's like a whole army of strawmen", as someone on here once said.
Which strawman are we discussing? Because you claimed his contract was signed in a free market, but a free market - by definition - is one where multiple parties are free to make offers. Plympton's question regarding other teams offers is not a strawman, but a reminder that this is not a free market.

Again, I'm not sure where this contract falls in the realm of fairness, especially given the risk the team is buying into, but the contract (and all non free agent contracts) was absolutely not signed in a free market.
 

jon abbey

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You guys should take that discussion to the ‘Baseball Is Broken’ thread, the off the field one.

Scooter Gennett helped off the field just now, evidently didn’t look good.
 

Adrian's Dome

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Which strawman are we discussing? Because you claimed his contract was signed in a free market, but a free market - by definition - is one where multiple parties are free to make offers. Plympton's question regarding other teams offers is not a strawman, but a reminder that this is not a free market.

Again, I'm not sure where this contract falls in the realm of fairness, especially given the risk the team is buying into, but the contract (and all non free agent contracts) was absolutely not signed in a free market.
That isn't actually what I said, that's just how you assumed it. I said that the two parties, in a negotiation, sat down and agreed upon what his value is. Given that nobody forced Jimenez to do so in any manner (he absolutely would've been free to tell them to go screw and play for free agency and the BIG payday if he wanted,) hence the indentured servitude take is fucking idiotic.
 

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That's a pretty questionable move, IMO.

You really want to alienate your top prospect, who approached a 1.000 OPS in AAA, so you don't have to option David Bote or Danny Field?
Post-ASB last season he batted .196 with an OPS of .653. This horrible ST performance was a continuation, not an aberration, and he's striking out a ton. This is all about Happ, not about Bote or Field.