Kraft One-Ups Brady’s Departure

Papelbon's Poutine

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There’s like a full page of things that would have made more sense. It makes me think he’s skewing more towards being senile than just being a drunk. Probably a combination of both.
 

Marciano490

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There’s like a full page of things that would have made more sense. It makes me think he’s skewing more towards being senile than just being a drunk. Probably a combination of both.
The cock wants what the cock wants. This is like the 100th weirdest sex thing I’ve heard this year.
 

sheamonu

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How many of the positions involved in this case are elective? (Sheriff, State's Attorney, DA?). If there are political considerations for a number of the people involved I can imagine this being pled down to a continuance without a finding with a pledge not to reoffend based on the strong desire of incumbents avoiding having several well heeled defendants funding opponents come election time. Probably justifiable given this is a first offense, there doesn't appear to be clear evidence of negotiations taking place (you are not obligated to prevent someone from committing a sex act on you), the video might be suppressed, the release of details to the public might be prejudicial, and I'm sure donations to an anti human trafficking charity can be arranged. If there is no guilty plea or finding of record what can Goodell then do? "Bob, you got a hand dukie in embarrassing circumstances - you're suspended for a quarter of the season" . Of course he can do just about whatever he wants - but c'mon.
 

Lose Remerswaal

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Kind of? I mean, all of those hugs seem kinda weird unless he's asking for them as part of the package. Which would also be.... kind of weird.

There's also the fact that he just completely forgoes the perfunctory "massage" part of the rub n' tug and just lies face up on the massage table right off the bat. Pretty much every other client in the affidavit starts with a back massage and then flips over, right?

Then Kraft gives her a $100+ tip. Maybe meaningless considering Kraft is a billionaire. But fits the profile of a known, regular, and valued customer.

I'm making an inference and who really knows, but that's how it reads to me. Wouldn't be surprised if celebrity clients were what piqued the cops' attention in the first place. Which might also explain Schefter's tweet about a bigger name being on the list, then the cops shooting that rumor down. Could be plenty of bigger names that the cops know about but don't have concrete evidence on.
If you read the rest of the descriptions, this is not an uncommon amount.

What do you tip?
 

Dan Murfman

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Now that we read he was there on the day of the AFC championship game my thought was I’m glad this wasn’t announced/leaked during the 2 weeks between championship game and the Super Bowl.
 

Rovin Romine

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How many of the positions involved in this case are elective? (Sheriff, State's Attorney, DA?). If there are political considerations for a number of the people involved I can imagine this being pled down to a continuance without a finding with a pledge not to reoffend based on the strong desire of incumbents avoiding having several well heeled defendants funding opponents come election time. Probably justifiable given this is a first offense, there doesn't appear to be clear evidence of negotiations taking place (you are not obligated to prevent someone from committing a sex act on you), the video might be suppressed, the release of details to the public might be prejudicial, and I'm sure donations to an anti human trafficking charity can be arranged. If there is no guilty plea or finding of record what can Goodell then do? "Bob, you got a hand dukie in embarrassing circumstances - you're suspended for a quarter of the season" . Of course he can do just about whatever he wants - but c'mon.
Like every other John in this case, Kraft is probably going to get a deal that's heavy on education and rehabilitation, rather than some kind of grossly punitive jail sentence for a first time offender. There is no indication at all that anything non-standard is likely to happen. That probably holds true for Goodell as well, but who really knows?
 

loshjott

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Now that we read he was there on the day of the AFC championship game my thought was I’m glad this wasn’t announced/leaked during the 2 weeks between championship game and the Super Bowl.
Yeah, I posted something like this upthread. So. FL is full of Dolphin, Jet, and Steeler fans (as well as Pats fans). Can't believe some transplant from Long Island working in the sheriff's office didn't leak it before the SB.
 

joe dokes

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Yeah, I posted something like this upthread. So. FL is full of Dolphin, Jet, and Steeler fans (as well as Pats fans). Can't believe some transplant from Long Island working in the sheriff's office didn't leak it before the SB.
If it were just this guy and that massage parlor, it probably would have gotten out (or Kraft would have been charged then). But potentially disrupting what has been described as a nationwide sex trafficking investigation just to make your favorite team's rival look bad before the big game would be pretty serious stuff.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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Like every other John in this case, Kraft is probably going to get a deal that's heavy on education and rehabilitation, rather than some kind of grossly punitive jail sentence for a first time offender. There is no indication at all that anything non-standard is likely to happen. That probably holds true for Goodell as well, but who really knows?
The best thing that could happen would be for Kraft to take a deal and come out with some kind of even billionaire widowers get lonely statement, coupled with a candid statement that until the investigation he hadn’t really ever understood or considered that this is not a victimless crime, but that his eyes are open now and he applauds law enforcement even though it is very personally embarrassing. The benefit of all this is that it probably would actually have the virtue of being close to the truth. Coupled with a large donation and a pledge to seek to increase human trafficking awareness and maybe some good actually comes out of it all.

Of course, I probably am living in a fantasy world.
 

joe dokes

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The best thing that could happen would be for Kraft to take a deal and come out with some kind of even billionaire widowers get lonely statement, coupled with a candid statement that until the investigation he hadn’t really ever understood or considered that this is not a victimless crime, but that his eyes are open now and he applauds law enforcement even though it is very personally embarrassing. The benefit of all this is that it probably would actually have the virtue of being close to the truth. Coupled with a large donation and a pledge to seek to increase human trafficking awareness and maybe some good actually comes out of it all.

Of course, I probably am living in a fantasy world.
Since he (or the team) has already contributed large sums to anti-trafficking efforts, it might not come off as cynical as it otherwise might. If I were advising, I'd just leave out the "lonely" part and go straight to what you call the "candid statement." Since this will presumably follow a guilty plea (or its equivalent), he should just stay away from trying to excuse his illegal behavior.
 

bankshot1

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Or maybe he just pays the fine, STFU, and acts with a greater degree of discretion in the future, because there's a good bet he's not getting rehabilitated from getting head from younger women
 

Myt1

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He could just follow APA guidelines that as a man he is horribly flawed and a menace to society, like all men, and will seek help.
You seem to be having a really tough time with this lately, shoehorning your feelings into a lot of weird spots. You OK?
 
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joe dokes

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Or maybe he just pays the fine, STFU, and acts with a greater degree of discretion in the future, because there's a good bet he's not getting rehabilitated from getting head from younger women
I think he has to say something, if only so he can end it with "this is the last I'm talking about this." I dont think he wants training camp to be dominated by questions about him. I suspect BB is perfectly capable, on Day 1, of saying, "Robert addressed this back in [whenever] and we've got training camp to deal with."
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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I think he has to say something, if only so he can end it with "this is the last I'm talking about this." I dont think he wants training camp to be dominated by questions about him. I suspect BB is perfectly capable, on Day 1, of saying, "Robert addressed this back in [whenever] and we've got training camp to deal with."
He can say whatever he wants, it’s not going to diminish the questions. Come on man.
 

bankshot1

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If he pleads guilty through his lawyer, I assume a statement can be released where he apologizes for his behavior, and the embarassment he caused his family, friends, employees and business associates. I'd keep it real short.
 

joe dokes

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He can say whatever he wants, it’s not going to diminish the questions. Come on man.
I was analogizing to Aaron Hernandez after BB's first-day comments. It wasn't brought up much after that by those covering the team. (I wasn't talking about talk-radio meatheads. They'll talk about anything).
 

snowmanny

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If he pleads guilty through his lawyer, I assume a statement can be released where he apologizes for his behavior, and the embarassment he caused his family, friends, employees and business associates. I'd keep it real short.
And the fans, of course.
 

simplyeric

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Indeed....and furthermore, BB is more than capable of saying “No comment” regardless of whether or not Kraft has said anything.
At best he might say "You're going to have to talk to Mr. Kraft about that", followed by "I've already answered that...I've already answered that...I've already answered that..."
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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I was analogizing to Aaron Hernandez after BB's first-day comments. It wasn't brought up much after that by those covering the team. (I wasn't talking about talk-radio meatheads. They'll talk about anything).
I know you meant press conferences and not talk radio. I just disagree (and also disagree that Hernandez stuff stopped quickly). Kraft can say whatever he likes, but BB is going to get peppered for a while about it. Probably Brady too.

Kraft needs to lay low right now, imo. I don’t see much point in him coming out in order to ‘put it to bed’, but reasonable minds can differ.
 

joe dokes

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I know you meant press conferences and not talk radio. I just disagree (and also disagree that Hernandez stuff stopped quickly). Kraft can say whatever he likes, but BB is going to get peppered for a while about it. Probably Brady too.

Kraft needs to lay low right now, imo. I don’t see much point in him coming out in order to ‘put it to bed’, but reasonable minds can differ.
"Right now." I agree. He shouldn't say anything until judgment is entered in accordance with his plea.
 

Ale Xander

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Any legal issues with innocent people being filmed without their consent? Had to be at least some? Isn't there some level of expectation of privacy being invaded? As the yelp reviews prove, there were at least some women who were clients who didn't know better.
 

SumnerH

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@Rovin Romine and others
Any legal issues with innocent people being filmed without their consent? Had to be at least some? Isn't there some level of expectation of privacy being invaded? As the yelp reviews prove, there were at least some women who were clients who didn't know better.
There was a warrant in place.
 

Myt1

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@Rovin Romine and others
Any legal issues with innocent people being filmed without their consent? Had to be at least some? Isn't there some level of expectation of privacy being invaded? As the yelp reviews prove, there were at least some women who were clients who didn't know better.
If the parlor were doing the filming without disclosure, yeah, sure. Even then, that would probably be an invasion of privacy tort, but wouldn’t prevent those videos from being used as evidence if the police found them.

But there was a warrant in place for a hidden camera. No issues w/r/t privacy. They might try to withhold/pixelate video of innocent people from public records requests or discovery, but that’s about it.
 

BusRaker

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Or maybe he just pays the fine, STFU, and acts with a greater degree of discretion in the future, because there's a good bet he's not getting rehabilitated from getting head from younger women
At 77, what are the real chances of getting head from an older woman?
 

bakahump

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"we're on to weird online porn."
"we're on to weird online porn"
"we're on to weird online porn"
"were on to Cincinnati Steamers"

Speaking of which....I see alot of you mentioning the fact that there is a human trafficking component to this. And how as such its not a "Victimless crime and should be viewed as more serious and disreputable on RKs part.
1. How would RK know that. It wasnt like he spoke to a guy on the street who hauled a woman out of his car and instructed her to do as the old man says.
From his perspective he went to a "legitimate" (at least in sex workers terms) location that one could assume had women working there of their own free will for their own reasons.
Does that make sense? If so, then isnt any online Porn that some of us may or may not partake in also (possibly) not a victimless crime? I mean I might assume that a high production value milf video is by 2 consenting individuals. But in reality is the woman being forced into it? And thus by watching it am I (or any of us) also supporting a (possible) Non Victimless crime?

Not trying to be confrontational but a porn video (that many of us might have stumbled across) could also be helping to promote human trafficking.
Ergo watching porn is bad.

We all need to wonder how far down the rabbit hole we wish to go. Are my Nikes made by child labor etc etc?

If this is truly (as evidenced by the charges) a human trafficking situation then I would think the Pimps and Smugglers need to be the ones really slammed. The Johns need to be punished for their level of lawlessness. Had this been a Woman (or Man) who decided to ask him for $100 so they could buy a new blender is this as morally a despicable act? And if not then how does RK know?
This seems alot like totally slamming the addicts or low level dealers while letting the Drug Kingpins off.
 

Ale Xander

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There was a warrant in place.
Well aware. But one for a long period of time, and including everyone, including obvious innocents, seems unreasonable to me

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized"
 

simplyeric

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Well aware. But one for a long period of time, and including everyone, including obvious innocents, seems unreasonable to me

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized"
Wouldn't that only be a thing if the video was used against an otherwise innocent person?
Like, if they tap a phone line because they suspect that there's criminal activity being done over that line, is it a violation of someone's rights if they pick up that phone to order pizza and it happens to be recorded/monitored?
I could see that defense i the warrant was related to prostitution/trafficking and some guy came in for a totally legit massage but was caught on tape smoking a joint or something, bot not if he came in to partake of the very services that the warrant was issued for.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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Well aware. But one for a long period of time, and including everyone, including obvious innocents, seems unreasonable to me

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized"
How is it unreasonable?

‘Yes, i grant this warrant but only for people’s xyz’. ?
 

Myt1

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Well aware. But one for a long period of time, and including everyone, including obvious innocents, seems unreasonable to me

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized"
You’re not even incorrectly reading the amendment correctly.

Why are you holding “persons”? No persons were to be seized.

An “unreasonable” search is one without an effective warrant and without probable cause of a crime or an exigency circumstance/other exception to the warrant requirement.

Also, how do you find out whether someone is an “obvious innocent”?
 

Ale Xander

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Wouldn't that only be a thing if the video was used against an otherwise innocent person?
Like, if they tap a phone line because they suspect that there's criminal activity being done over that line, is it a violation of someone's rights if they pick up that phone to order pizza and it happens to be recorded/monitored?
I could see that defense i the warrant was related to prostitution/trafficking and some guy came in for a totally legit massage but was caught on tape smoking a joint or something, bot not if he came in to partake of the very services that the warrant was issued for.
If you were a woman getting a massage, would you want some male police officer/detective looking at you getting undressed on video?

Say some jurisdiction finds out a restroom was being used for drug sales. Would it be ok to get a non-specific warrant to video that restroom for months?
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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I think there's a significant question whether sneak and peek warrants are constitutional, especially for misdemeanors. I think in a post-9/11 world, I think we know how that will get resolved. But I actually don't think that the question is without merit.

But to answer the questions here, given that not everyone is a criminal procedure expert, the way things are set up, the judge who reviews and signs the warrant is supposed to be the protection against illegal searches and seizures. The idea is that once the warrant issues, the police are entitled to rely on it, and even if maybe the judge who signed it should have dug deeper, the police are off the hook and the evidence they seize is admissible, because the constitution was complied with by having the neutral review.

That said, if the facts that were put in the probable cause affidavit were false, and the affiant was reckless about truth, the warrant may be invalid.

The bottom line to me is that the judge didn't do a very good job here. Sneak and peek warrants are lazy and do constitute a massive invasion of privacy for innocents, and really ought to be exception rather than the rule -- for very serious crimes where it's obvious that you can't let the suspect know you're executing a warrant and where you're not just using this overbroad technique to replace the job of hard policing. I'm not trying to diminish the significance of human trafficking, and I'm not really reactionary on criminal procedure and privacy issues one way or the other. But I do think there needs to be an understanding that police power unchecked leads to bad places eventually.

This was a very broad warrant in a place where you knew you were going to invade the privacy of non-bad actors and where the majority of the crimes were misdemeanors. The warrants were designed to catch the acts of prostitution -- a misdemeanor and weren't even really sneak and peeking on actual human trafficking activity. A good judge might have insisted on more protection for privacy, but most judges just rubber stamp these things.
 

Myt1

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I don’t disagree with your broader points, but the acts of prostitution are relevant evidence of the trafficking.
 
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dcmissle

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Yes. And from a broader perspective, if he is going to get his Jerry Thornton on and play the victim,

https://mobile.twitter.com/jerrythornton1?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author

Bob Kraft will not have a happy ending. Not so much from a legal perspective — there are tight limits on what they can do to him, and I agree with RR that there is no evidence the authorities will single him out for unduly harsh treatment.

From an NFL perspective. If he doesn’t have the judgment to STFU, lay low, and make this go away as quickly as possible, then he doesn’t have the judgment to be conducting important League business on behalf of 31 other owners.

If the tape leaks, he is screwed in this respect, but even if it doesn’t, you can bet the other 31 are watching carefully.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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I don’t disagree with your broader points, but the prostitution is relevant evidence of the trafficking.
Yeah, I don't know the case very well. And maybe the cameras were set up in rooms where the women were living and stuff so they were designed to catch both.

It's still a very blunt instrument and ought to be the exception not the rule. I mean, imagine they do a sneak and peek in a law firm conference room because they think some of the lawyers in a firm are dirty. You know that a judge would be very cautious and worried about all the attorney-client privilege issues for the non dirty lawyers and it would be a big deal. I guess maybe seeing some Florida citizens getting legitimate massages doesn't quite rise to that level, but, you know, just talking conceptually about the issues these sneak and peeks are pretty powerful and dangerous things.
 

Ralphwiggum

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Way back in another lifetime I did legal work for JW Childs, John Childs' private equity firm, just noticed he's on the list too. I never met the dude, I was just a low level associate working on a bunch of their stuff. At least Kraft is not the only Massachusetts based dude with unlimited funds who decided to go to a strip mall Asian massage parlor for a hand job.
 

snowmanny

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Yes. And from a broader perspective, if he is going to get his Jerry Thornton on and play the victim,

https://mobile.twitter.com/jerrythornton1?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author

Bob Kraft will not have a happy ending. Not so much from a legal perspective — there are tight limits on what they can do to him, and I agree with RR that there is no evidence the authorities will single him out for unduly harsh treatment.

From an NFL perspective. If he doesn’t have the judgment to STFU, lay low, and make this go away as quickly as possible, then he doesn’t have the judgment to be conducting important League business on behalf of 31 other owners.

If the tape leaks, he is screwed in this respect, but even if it doesn’t, you can bet the other 31 are watching carefully.
So I think you’ve made the point a couple of times that this could diminish his influence on committees and NFL policy positions going forward. You may very well be correct.

My question is, as a Patriots fan, why should I care?
 

reggiecleveland

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Kraft's behavior isn't really a good example for the point you seem to be pushing.
You tell me.

AT first look the APA guidelines offend me, especially for the lack of hard science. But reading about this case that there at least 7000s places like this hell hole, and the horrific things done to these women, and then all the pages of jokes, many of which occurred to me and I have made in the past in similar situations. I am not sure I can put myself, or most men above those guidelines and see this whole mess but anything but evidence things are messed up with how men treat women maybe on a universal scale. I mean if only a fraction of these places are similar to this place there are what 40,000-50,000 women in this highly specific horrendous circumstances.

Jesus. I want to dismiss toxic masculinity but the evidence seem overwhelming to the contrary. And, I expect somebody, not Kraft, to claim he is own victim of his own masculinity to explain some shitty behaviour.
 

pappymojo

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I don't really care about Kraft or his reputation. He's a really, really rich guy who owns the local team.

All that said, is there an expectation that the DA will be pressing further charges against the masterminds behind these businesses concerning the sex slaves? It seems like a big effort if all they get out of it are some small charges against the johns.
 

dcmissle

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So I think you’ve made the point a couple of times that this could diminish his influence on committees and NFL policy positions going forward. You may very well be correct.

My question is, as a Patriots fan, why should I care?
I care for him personally because he has been a spectacular owner, and I don’t want him humiliated further with wings clipped and so forth. Honestly, from our selfish standpoint, the narrower the target profile for our owner, the better. And I’ve seen no evidence that these positions of power and influence confer on the Pats any competitive advantage. To the contrary, the image of influence and coziness with the Commissioner probably are detrimental when disciplinary matters pop up.

Whatever happens to Kraft won’t hurt the team. Only Bart Scott and the feverish Jerry Thornton are on the “lose draft picks” cruise.