Gordon Hayward 2020: I'm standing here in pieces and you're having delusions of grandeur!

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wade boggs chicken dinner

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With respect to GH's progress, last night, I just finished watching the second UT loss.

There was a play in the 4Q where GH had a breakout after a steal and he went to dunk the ball. He was above the rim but just barely and Mitchell (I think) caught up to him and blocked the shot.

I suspect that wouldn't happen now.

Great to see.
 

Jimbodandy

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Correct. In most cases the analytics didn't make sense to shoot 3's back then. In '85-'86 there were only 8 teams that shot 3's over 28.4%......and 5 teams that year didn't reach 21%! It's funny but 2 of those 5 teams, Utah and Atlanta, had winning records lol.
Not at all trying to single anyone out with this, but it's hard for a lot of people to imagine what the 80s were like for 3pt shots.

If you were drafted before 1986 (IIRC), the first 3pt shot you ever took was in the NBA. Larry Bird learned how to shoot the three in the NBA and never averaged much over 3 attempts per game, despite being damn good at it.

Most guys were such ass that it was simply not a shot that they took except in the last few minutes of a game. For that reason, low post guys were still pretty valuable.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Not at all trying to single anyone out with this, but it's hard for a lot of people to imagine what the 80s were like for 3pt shots.

If you were drafted before 1986 (IIRC), the first 3pt shot you ever took was in the NBA. Larry Bird learned how to shoot the three in the NBA and never averaged much over 3 attempts per game, despite being damn good at it.

Most guys were such ass that it was simply not a shot that they took except in the last few minutes of a game. For that reason, low post guys were still pretty valuable.
Coaches used to tell players NOT to shoot from behind the 3-pt line when it was first implemented. Prior to '85 when the NCAA finally added the line the thought of taking a 20-footer instead of passing the ball for a 15-footer was enough for a coaches head to fall off......the old school coaches from the 60's and 70's who were still around taught the closer the shot the better regardless of who was shooting it. Hard to imagine that it's taken 30 years for the mid-range game to be recognized for its flaws.
 

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With low post moves like he had, and a career FG% over 55%, it usually didnt make sense to kick it out.
I seem to recall that there was some significance (I don't know if it was something that had never been done by anyone, by any Celtic, or just a rare occurrence) that McHale finished the season with FG% over 60% and FT % over 80%. Around the same time, Bird finished a season 50% and 90%.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Not at all trying to single anyone out with this, but it's hard for a lot of people to imagine what the 80s were like for 3pt shots.

If you were drafted before 1986 (IIRC), the first 3pt shot you ever took was in the NBA. Larry Bird learned how to shoot the three in the NBA and never averaged much over 3 attempts per game, despite being damn good at it.

Most guys were such ass that it was simply not a shot that they took except in the last few minutes of a game. For that reason, low post guys were still pretty valuable.
I think we are seeing somewhat of a return for low post guys, at least ones who can defend and are good offensive rebounders. Rebounding numbers for low post bigs have been trending upwards as more players move away from the rim and all those offensive rebounds lead to easy baskets. Capela is the obvious example. He's scoring 18 a night in large part because he's averaging 4.8 ORPG, which lets him shoot 65% from the field, and also because there is less defensive resistance. If you have one of these guys, it's an easy 15+ points a night on decent to great efficiency without even having to run plays for the guys.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I seem to recall that there was some significance (I don't know if it was something that had never been done by anyone, by any Celtic, or just a rare occurrence) that McHale finished the season with FG% over 60% and FT % over 80%. Around the same time, Bird finished a season 50% and 90%.
Yes I believe McHale was the first as Cedric Maxwell almost did it a couple years prior. This year we have 2 players, Sabonis and DeAndre, with an outside chance of achieving this and a third player (Mine and Danny Darwinism's draft binkie) Pascal Siakam having a legitimate chance if he can get his FT% up from its current 78.2%.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Coaches used to tell players NOT to shoot from behind the 3-pt line when it was first implemented. Prior to '85 when the NCAA finally added the line the thought of taking a 20-footer instead of passing the ball for a 15-footer was enough for a coaches head to fall off......the old school coaches from the 60's and 70's who were still around taught the closer the shot the better regardless of who was shooting it. Hard to imagine that it's taken 30 years for the mid-range game to be recognized for its flaws.
I remember at one point in the early 90s, some people were claiming the 3 point shot was racist because it favored white basketball players. Glad that has been put to rest.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Yes I believe McHale was the first as Cedric Maxwell almost did it a couple years prior. This year we have 2 players, Sabonis and DeAndre, with an outside chance of achieving this and a third player (Mine and Danny Darwinism's draft binkie) Pascal Siakam having a legitimate chance if he can get his FT% up from its current 78.2%.
This is still shocking AF... but then I realized you are probably talking about DeAndre Ayton who also has a chance alongside Jordan.
 

HomeRunBaker

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This is still shocking AF... but then I realized you are probably talking about DeAndre Ayton who also has a chance alongside Jordan.
I was referring to Jordan but Ayton is actually right up there with Siakam in FT and at 59.9% FG
 

Eddie Jurak

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He was such a plus athlete prior to the injury that even a reduced version of him can still be really good on defense and crashing the boards, but he still has a long way to go physically.
It's still too early to say how far back he will or won't make it, athletically-speaking. The last bit of physical recovery will take the longest time.
The 30 minutes or less seems stupid to me. Lebron probably has put up those numbers in under 30 mins a dozen times but it doesn’t show up in the query because he didn’t stop playing at 30 minutes. Everyone who has ever reached those numbers in 30 minutes was kept in the game for 35 or 40 minutes.
At some level, all of these cherry-picked numbers will look better than they actually are. It's just the nature of this approach. 30/8/9 or 28/9/9 would be basically just as good as 30/9/8, but they won't show up in this comparison. Adding the minutes cap makes it even worse.
 

Al Zarilla

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Even then. Splitting the double team was a routine move for him.
Also true. Funny, but because he played with Larry Bird, I didn't appreciate what an all time great player he was while he was playing. Probably same with Parish, who is not as high up there. DJ too. Danny, and some of Walton. What a team.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Also true. Funny, but because he played with Larry Bird, I didn't appreciate what an all time great player he was while he was playing. Probably same with Parish, who is not as high up there. DJ too. Danny, and some of Walton. What a team.
Don't forget 30-year old Scott Wedman who was a 2x All-Star including just two years prior and a prior 2nd Team All-Defensive player.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Also true. Funny, but because he played with Larry Bird, I didn't appreciate what an all time great player he was while he was playing. Probably same with Parish, who is not as high up there. DJ too. Danny, and some of Walton. What a team.
He was kind of a strange player. Pedestrian rebounder for a big. Not a passer. Mostly played power forward, but had a back-to-the-basket offensive game more characteristic of a center. And it was the best low post game the NBA has ever seen. Oh, and before the broken foot he could hang with SFs on defense, making Bird's one-on-one defensive limitations a non-issue.

Like Marcus Smart, I don't think there's another NBA player like him.
 

TomTerrific

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I don't know, to me he still looks slow and unable to do what he really wants. His skill level is such that he can do a fair number of things anyway, but I just look at him and imagine what a little more confidence (and burst) in his legs would do.

I say 6 more weeks and then let's see what we have.
 

lovegtm

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I don't know, to me he still looks slow and unable to do what he really wants. His skill level is such that he can do a fair number of things anyway, but I just look at him and imagine what a little more confidence (and burst) in his legs would do.

I say 6 more weeks and then let's see what we have.
He's basically 35 year-old Manu in terms of what he brings to a team in his current state. That guy can definitely be in a closing lineup in the NBA Finals, but isn't a max player. Hopefully some of the explosion comes back.
 

mikeot

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Despite the loss to Detroit, I was heartened by Gordo’s pair of unabashed layups, possibly yip-free IMHO .
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Despite the loss to Detroit, I was heartened by Gordo’s pair of unabashed layups, possibly yip-free IMHO .
I'll be happier when (if?) he starts dunking those again.

I was also heartened by a 3P he took that was a step behind the 3P line. Even though he missed, I take that to mean that he feels better about his shot.
 

m0ckduck

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He was kind of a strange player. Pedestrian rebounder for a big.
On the defensive glass, yes. But the offensive boards, look out. Again, a strange player. I re-watched some of the 1985 Finals recently and was startled to find that McHale was clearly the best player on the floor for either team for extended stretches (particularly with Bird having banged up his shooting hand for that series).
 

luckiestman

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On the defensive glass, yes. But the offensive boards, look out. Again, a strange player. I re-watched some of the 1985 Finals recently and was startled to find that McHale was clearly the best player on the floor for either team for extended stretches (particularly with Bird having banged up his shooting hand for that series).

I’ve been watching old Cs games on youtube. We are so fucking weird. I thought it was just me.
 

DJnVa

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It's also a mental hurdle. That's a good sign. And look at bench reaction. They know.

Not sure I want Rozier throwing it though.
 

DJnVa

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Following up the 35, a very nice 16/11/8 for Hayward tonight.
 

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His passing has been amazing but his rebounding tonight looked as good as its been since he arrived in Boston (tonight's 11 boards is his Boston high). Even if he doesn't score, if he can continue to help out on the boards, he is going to be very valuable for this team.
 

mostman

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His passing has been amazing but his rebounding tonight looked as good as its been since he arrived in Boston (tonight's 11 boards is his Boston high). Even if he doesn't score, if he can continue to help out on the boards, he is going to be very valuable for this team.
He was everywhere last night and his energy level was through the roof. I think last night was even better than the T-Wolves game.
 

MyDaughterLovesTomGordon

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He was everywhere last night and his energy level was through the roof. I think last night was even better than the T-Wolves game.
I thought so, too, but maybe best of all was that he reported that he was "not where I want to be, but feel okay" in the post-game with Abby.

There's still upside, as far as he's concerned.
 

Red Averages

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He’s definitely being more agrresice instead of playing hot potato basketball. It’s amazing to see his progress in only a few months. Can’t wait to see how integral he is come April when the playoffs begin.
 

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Paging BigJohn....what are your your impressions of Gordon right now? Do you still think the Celtics should dump him for 2 used jockstraps and 3 basketballs?
 

lovegtm

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Paging BigJohn....what are your your impressions of Gordon right now? Do you still think the Celtics should dump him for 2 used jockstraps and 3 basketballs?
He'll shift seamlessly into how the past two games clearly prove that Kyrie is a cancer.
 

Jimbodandy

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Yes, the confidence and aggression and playmaking are all awesome and great to see. What I love most is the BBIQ, however, both on offense and defense. Much like Marcus, he sees the defensive play two steps ahead and makes great basketball plays. Same on offense. His passing and rebounding IQ is great. With Al, Gordon, and Smart out there, it is a stark reminder of the youth of both Brown and Tatum, whose physical skills are so far ahead of their mental ones still. Of course that's to be expected at their age, but personally I kinda forgot during last year's playoff run.

It's a joy to watch "feel okay" Hayward do his thing and see how it benefits the team as a whole. Additionally, it reminds me of the ceiling of the young guys and how much better they can be, as these experienced guys can bequeath some of that BBIQ as well.
 

Big John

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Hayward has had two good games. Actually I though his overall performance was better against the Mavs. Let's see how it goes from here. Maybe he has turned a corner.

As for Kyrie, he's obviously their most talented player. What I'd like to see is balanced scoring performances like the one last night-- five guys in double figures and four more with eight apiece-- with Kyrie in the mix. They don't need Kyrie to take 25 shots a night. They do need him to make game-winning plays in crunch time.
 

lovegtm

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Yes, the confidence and aggression and playmaking are all awesome and great to see. What I love most is the BBIQ, however, both on offense and defense. Much like Marcus, he sees the defensive play two steps ahead and makes great basketball plays. Same on offense. His passing and rebounding IQ is great. With Al, Gordon, and Smart out there, it is a stark reminder of the youth of both Brown and Tatum, whose physical skills are so far ahead of their mental ones still. Of course that's to be expected at their age, but personally I kinda forgot during last year's playoff run.

It's a joy to watch "feel okay" Hayward do his thing and see how it benefits the team as a whole. Additionally, it reminds me of the ceiling of the young guys and how much better they can be, as these experienced guys can bequeath some of that BBIQ as well.
Lineups with Kyrie, Hayward, Horford, and Smart together should be off the charts for collective BBIQ. I'd love to see those 4 guys+ Tatum/Morris.
 

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Hayward has had two good games. Actually I though his overall performance was better against the Mavs. Let's see how it goes from here. Maybe he has turned a corner.

As for Kyrie, he's obviously their most talented player. What I'd like to see is balanced scoring performances like the one last night-- five guys in double figures and four more with eight apiece-- with Kyrie in the mix. They don't need Kyrie to take 25 shots a night. They do need him to make game-winning plays in crunch time.
What you are describing in your last couple sentences is basically vintage Isaiah Thomas (the Hall of Famer from the Pistons) who would spend the first 40 minutes of a game being a pass first PG setting up his teammates and then would take over for that last few minutes of crunch time.
 

Big John

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Kyrie doesn't have to take over. He just has to play his game. You can't foul him (he's 90% plus from the line) and he's always a threat from deep. But IT got his teammates more involved, even at the end of games. He had the single season assist record until Stockton broke it.
 

the moops

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What I'd like to see is balanced scoring performances like the one last night-- five guys in double figures and four more with eight apiece.
This may be more enjoyable to watch (for some) but I doubt that such balanced scoring is a championship winning team makeup. You generally want your best scorers shooting the ball and taking the most shots - and in turn scoring the most points.

I am quite OK if Brad Wannamaker and Semi are not scoring 8 points a game
 

Big John

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I understand that most NBA teams feature their stars. But offenses work better when all five guys are credible threats. It opens up even more opportunities for the good scorers. There are also time when your stars are not on the floor and the second unit has to put up some points.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Kyrie has shown signs of putting some of that stuff together - best example his 4th Q against Memphis.

Edit: Also, he is at his career high in assists per game and assists per 36 minutes, and the second highest assist rate of his career.
 

InstaFace

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What you are describing in your last couple sentences is basically vintage Isaiah Thomas (the Hall of Famer from the Pistons) who would spend the first 40 minutes of a game being a pass first PG setting up his teammates and then would take over for that last few minutes of crunch time.
Isiah.

Isaiah plays for Denver.

(your point, obviously, stands)
 

TripleOT

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I was at the Mavs game. After a slow start, Hayward put in a Bird-like performance. He was incredibly efficient and did whatever his team needed him to do to control the game. The crowd was so happy for him. I've been at a handful of games this season, and this was the first time he didn't look like straight garbage.

The almost triple double showed how much versatility GH brings to the team. He's most effective when he takes the ball into the paint. I read somewhere recently that he averaged 9 drives to the hoop his last year in Utah and only 4 early on this season. When he passes the ball when his feet are in the paint, something good usually happens.

We haven't seen a lot of his dead eye shooting ability, but he was dialed in the last three quarters of the Minny game. Small sample size, but he's 36% from three on two days rest, and 53% from three on three or more. He's also way more efficient at home (45/38/90%) than on the road (37?27/88%). He's 47/41% with a point every two minutes at home, and 34/22% and a point every three minutes on the road.
 

DJnVa

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Seems really good at home but you said that until this game every one you saw was straight garbage. How unlucky.
 
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