Yeah you guys are right. It was with complete foresight they passed on him six times, as did 31 other teams, to the tune of 198 players being taken first. Pure game planning and scouting there.
I would agree using the word luck to some extent. The Pats went into that draft without a need at QB for either the starter or depth spots. So to say we passed on him 5 times isn't exactly fair considering the position probably wasn't on our board unless BB found a player with extreme value hanging around in the 6th round, which is what I believed happened. They had a higher round grade on him (3rd/4th for instance) and couldn't pass him up in the 6th despite having no real need to draft a QB. The fact that other teams did not evaluate him the same way and therefore didn't draft him could be called luck, or just general incompetence. But we're talking about a college QB with bad measurable's that shared time with a true freshman. He was never going to be a high round pick. The safe statement is he got passed over about 75-100 times, with about 90% of those coming from teams that didn't need a QB, so he was probably discussed by teams for about 8-10 real pick possibilities. So I'd say we're lucky he didn't get selected by the few teams that had a need for about 2 rounds.Yeah you guys are right. It was with complete foresight they passed on him six times, as did 31 other teams, to the tune of 198 players being taken first. Pure game planning and scouting there.
Dont forget Trent Brown. Lucky that he was available for only a 3rd round pick and was able to step right in at LT. And lucky that Solder forgot how to play football so that the trade looks even better.Seriously. By this logic the Pats were lucky BB left the Jets. Lucky Brady was passed by 198 times. Lucky that Moss flamed out on the Raiders. Lucky Gronk dropped to the second round. And on and on.
Because it's a message board and we don't have a "LIKE" button. Generally the discussion is over points of disagreement.Finally, I find it odd and a bit unfair that the second part of my original post gives the Pats credit for the work they did do, yet that part was discarded in all the posts that followed. Inconvenient? Yes, I did ascribe a portion of the transaction to luck but I also gave BB, etc. their due.
First off - thanks on the released/trade correction. I was wrong. There were a lot of stories at the time of the trade that he was going to be released and unfortunately that's what I remembered best. Sincerely happy to be corrected on a mistake (although of course I'd rather not have made it in the first place).
I'm going to have to disagree with the Pats' luck in regard to getting Gordon though. They were totally lucky that a top receiver became available at a time when they had a huge need for an impact receiver. I honestly don't know you can characterize it as anything other than that. And they were also lucky that he actually picked up the offense. How many times has this same prepared and smart FO and coaching staff whiffed on accomplished veteran wideouts like Ochocinco who didn't function well within the Pats' system and Brady's demands or are physically impaired? Most don't even make it out of training camp.
Finally, I find it odd and a bit unfair that the second part of my original post gives the Pats credit for the work they did do, yet that part was discarded in all the posts that followed. Inconvenient? Yes, I did ascribe a portion of the transaction to luck but I also gave BB, etc. their due.
Ochocinco was also 5 years older with way more mileage.The problem with your construct is that it can be applied to almost every player ever acquired in any way, except the 1st pick in the draft if that guy is a senior (or else lucky he decided to come out early).
Lucky he was available. Lucky no one else tried to trade a 4th round pick. Lucky he picked up the offense.
If the smart staff whiffed on Ochocinco, then its the same smart staff that didn't (or hasnt yet) whiff on Gordon. Or did they just get unlucky with Ochocinco?
If this is your standard, then everything is luck. Feel free to give me one example in any walk of life where I wont be able to prove that point.BB at the time needed a quarter to play a jukebox he had built and maintained. Walking along a street, he found a quarter. Was he lucky? Well, he had surveyed all the nearby roads and then picked that particular street because it was pot-holed. He also knew - by studying the maintenance charts of the local Brinks Truck company as well as the schedules of each truck's route - that the Brinks truck with the faulty door used that road on that day at that time. Finally, he also was sure to be looking down as he walked. But none of that guaranteed the quarter would be there and in good enough condition to work in the jukebox.
Teams start taking fliers on guys by the late third round. Even before that there's an inherent level of "luck" or whatever you want to call it involved with draft picks. He was still sitting there - after the Brady 6 were gone, some to teams that had more need, some that didn't - they went on Rehbein's endorsement and they developed him into what he is. Suggesting there's no luck at all that he was there (not that you specifically are doing so) when their card got called is hagiography. My point is simply that he was there at that point, not that they threw a dart and landed the GOAT.I would agree using the word luck to some extent. The Pats went into that draft without a need at QB for either the starter or depth spots. So to say we passed on him 5 times isn't exactly fair considering the position probably wasn't on our board unless BB found a player with extreme value hanging around in the 6th round, which is what I believed happened. They had a higher round grade on him (3rd/4th for instance) and couldn't pass him up in the 6th despite having no real need to draft a QB. The fact that other teams did not evaluate him the same way and therefore didn't draft him could be called luck, or just general incompetence. But we're talking about a college QB with bad measurable's that shared time with a true freshman. He was never going to be a high round pick. The safe statement is he got passed over about 75-100 times, with about 90% of those coming from teams that didn't need a QB, so he was probably discussed by teams for about 8-10 real pick possibilities. So I'd say we're lucky he didn't get selected by the few teams that had a need for about 2 rounds.
Check. Have the UHaul packed and ready to go.I'll try this again.
Cin...ci.natti.
Thanks for that dc. Boy, Gordon is saying all the right things. Reading that it occurred to me that having Gordon sit beside him is also beneficial to Brady. I think it has to be inspirational to watch a guy work through his problems and also experience what it's like to be on a winning team. His first division title. First playoffs, etc. Keeps the juices flowing I imagine.
I am convinced this is one of the reasons Belichick always picks up guys from losing teams. There's always a Chris Long or a Jason McCourty who hasn't gotten to experience winning before.Thanks for
Thanks for that dc. Boy, Gordon is saying all the right things. Reading that it occurred to me that having Gordon sit beside him is also beneficial to Brady. I think it has to be inspirational to watch a guy work through his problems and also experience what it's like to be on a winning team. His first division title. First playoffs, etc. Keeps the juices flowing I imagine.
Every time I see this thread, I think it is about Gordon Hayward.Every time I see this thread title in the timeline I get a craving for a gin and tonic.
Thanks for shifting the goalposts, I guess. But for all the talk about the Patriots' "notoriously difficult offense" the guys that don't "get it" have all turned out to be, coincidentally I'm sure, physically shot. This isn't a commentary on the offense, just the "Reggie Wayne couldn't handle the offense!" nonsense. I'm fairly certain he grasped the offense, but he was just physically unable to handle the grind or get separation anymore when he got here. It happens.I'm going to have to disagree with the Pats' luck in regard to getting Gordon though. They were totally lucky that a top receiver became available at a time when they had a huge need for an impact receiver. I honestly don't know you can characterize it as anything other than that. And they were also lucky that he actually picked up the offense. How many times has this same prepared and smart FO and coaching staff whiffed on accomplished veteran wideouts like Ochocinco who didn't function well within the Pats' system and Brady's demands or are physically impaired?
Wow. Just look at him, and look at what Moss could do when he got here. That's not a good comp.He could be a comp to Moss, really. He seems to be drinking the Kool Aid. Put provisions on an extension and keep him.
He’s a restricted free agent. They should just put a second round tender on him for 3 million and be done with it (I doubt anyone makes an offer, given his issues), unless he’s willing to take a super friendly team deal for longer.He could be a comp to Moss, really. He seems to be drinking the Kool Aid. Put provisions on an extension and keep him.
I've looked at him and watched him get better every week as he gets more ingrained and gets back into game shape. His measurables are almost identical (6'3"/ 230# vs 6'4"/215#). He may not be the savant or freak that Moss was so quickly but he's certainly a game changing WR and he's young with not a lot of tread on the tires. He's got just as much physical talent as Moss did, maybe not quite as fast but stronger. No, its not a direct comp, but he's certainly more Moss than Welker, which is what I was responding to. He's an elite WR.Wow. Just look at him, and look at what Moss could do when he got here. That's not a good comp.
That's not to say he isn't a good receiver, and if everything breaks right, could be a top 5 receiver next year for us. That is enough to make it a great, great pickup.
Correction, he still does have a lot of tread on the tires.I've looked at him and watched him get better every week as he gets more ingrained and gets back into game shape. His measurables are almost identical (6'3"/ 230# vs 6'4"/215#). He may not be the savant or freak that Moss was so quickly but he's certainly a game changing WR and he's young with not a lot of tread on the tires. He's got just as much physical talent as Moss did, maybe not quite as fast but stronger. No, its not a direct comp, but he's certainly more Moss than Welker, which is what I was responding to. He's an elite WR.
Correct, I misspoke. I guess I meant ‘wear’? I dunno, but you know what I was saying.Correction, he still does have a lot of tread on the tires.
Due to my initial sloppiness with the word "lucky," those goalposts were planted in a spot I didn't intend. I thought I had enough qualifiers but they were in a separate paragraph and didn't make a sufficient linkage. DCmissile was right, it was a brilliant move and I might have amended it to "bold gamble" which would have better reflected my intentions. In any case, the bobbies have tapped my shoes with their stick and if you'd like to go over this ground, please PM me.Thanks for shifting the goalposts, I guess. But for all the talk about the Patriots' "notoriously difficult offense" the guys that don't "get it" have all turned out to be, coincidentally I'm sure, physically shot. This isn't a commentary on the offense, just the "Reggie Wayne couldn't handle the offense!" nonsense. I'm fairly certain he grasped the offense, but he was just physically unable to handle the grind or get separation anymore when he got here. It happens.
Similarly Chad Johnson just didn't have the speed or quickness to get separation anymore when New England got him, it's why he didn't do anything after the Patriots cut him. I mean did the Montreal Alouettes have a really tough to grasp offense or was Johnson just too damned slow?
Well I posted that I felt the biggest risk was that he becomes integral to the offense and then flakes out at the end of the season/playoffs...So he exceeded the expectations of 86.6% of SoSHers who did the poll. Gasper said the Pats took a chance and lost. At least around here he exceeded the vast majority of expectations. So I'd differ with Gasper.