ALDS vs. MFY—Buckle Up

TFisNEXT

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Even casual fans know how dangerous the MFY lineup is, especially in that dump. To start lecturing the audience on how swinging at a 3-0 pitch in a 10-1 game with 9 outs left for the opposition is offensive, then they really are insulting their viewers' intelligence.

I could understand if the score was 16-1 by that point or if it occurred in the 9th inning, but that was ridiculous. You're in a playoff game in a hostile environment against one of the scariest lineups in baseball. You pad your lead at any chance in that situation.
 

glennhoffmania

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I don't think Anderson does his homework. The other end of the spectrum in that regard was Don Orsillo in the other ALDS. You'd think he was a home announcer for both the Astros and the Indians he had so much knowledge about both teams. So prepared. Of course, he and Eck playing off each other didn't hurt either. We got the poorer announcing pair, by far.
Yup. He didn't even know LeVangie's name the other night.
 

Humphrey

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Yes, given CC's retaliation attempts in the last start against TB there is a chance.
Usually the prevailing logic is "get even with them in April next year; don't give them free baserunners because the game is too big". Not that exceptions aren't made.
 

Red Averages

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Whether you agree unwritten rules were violated or even if they exist, I have a feeling we will see one form or another of retaliation tonight. I just hope it isn't outcome impacting. Keep an eye on both AB and Holt (assuming he's in there) when facing CC.
Retaliating in a must win game with a spotty pitcher on the mound? I would certainly sign up for this.

Edit - They also have nothing to retaliate on. If their team had shown up, they wouldn't need to worry about the Red Sox advancing to 2nd base because their catcher is unable to field his position. Or that Brock Holt can hit for a cycle because their bullpen pitched so poorly they needed to throw a position player into a playoff game.
 

dhappy42

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Whether you agree unwritten rules were violated or even if they exist, I have a feeling we will see one form or another of retaliation tonight. I just hope it isn't outcome impacting. Keep an eye on both AB and Holt (assuming he's in there) when facing CC.
Doubt it. Stakes are too high to put a runner on just to teach Benny a lesson. (No one is gonna begrudge Holt his HR for the cycle. Especially since it was off Romine.) Or to risk an early CC ejection, however small that risk might be. Angel Hernandez is erratic and will likely be eager to toss someone tonight for any reason.
 

Humphrey

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Even casual fans know how dangerous the MFY lineup is, especially in that dump. To start lecturing the audience on how swinging at a 3-0 pitch in a 10-1 game with 9 outs left for the opposition is offensive, then they really are insulting their viewers' intelligence.

I could understand if the score was 16-1 by that point or if it occurred in the 9th inning, but that was ridiculous. You're in a playoff game in a hostile environment against one of the scariest lineups in baseball. You pad your lead at any chance in that situation.
Off topic: Wonder if some day the "real" distances to some of those fences will be posted, just like they changed Fenway's. I can't believe some of those balls to right field end up being homers. Also, it seems like someone anticipated they'd have a stiff catcher some day and made it tough to advance on balls that go back to the wall/screen (the ball often comes right back to the catcher). I bet there would have been another dozen or two wild pitches/passed balls over the course of the season somewhere else.
 

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Whether you agree unwritten rules were violated or even if they exist, I have a feeling we will see one form or another of retaliation tonight. I just hope it isn't outcome impacting. Keep an eye on both AB and Holt (assuming he's in there) when facing CC.
I think there is zero chance of this happening.
Unless Darling comes in in relief.
 

The Talented Allen Ripley

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Part of me hopes that as well, which leads me to wonder why Torre didn't order any of his hitters to bunt on Schilling in Game 6. I'm sure it was an old school "respect for the game" thing, which I understand, but man, I can't say I'd have taken the same approach.
 

BaseballJones

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Retaliating in a must win game with a spotty pitcher on the mound? I would certainly sign up for this.

Edit - They also have nothing to retaliate on. If their team had shown up, they wouldn't need to worry about the Red Sox advancing to 2nd base because their catcher is unable to field his position. Or that Brock Holt can hit for a cycle because their bullpen pitched so poorly they needed to throw a position player into a playoff game.
Haha right? Don't like them swinging on 3-0? Don't go 3-0 on the guy.
 

E5 Yaz

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Part of me hopes that as well, which leads me to wonder why Torre didn't order any of his hitters to bunt on Schilling in Game 6. I'm sure it was an old school "respect for the game" thing, which I understand, but man, I can't say I'd have taken the same approach.
Agreed. I dropped that into the game thread as well. Can you imagine Belichick -- who has a reverence for the history of football -- deciding not to throw in the direction of a backup corner because the starter was injured?

Torre's decision (and that of his players not to try it once on their own) remains as baffling as anything else in that baffling series.
 

BlackJack

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Part of me hopes that as well, which leads me to wonder why Torre didn't order any of his hitters to bunt on Schilling in Game 6. I'm sure it was an old school "respect for the game" thing, which I understand, but man, I can't say I'd have taken the same approach.
Didn't Torre say at the time that he wasn't convinced that Schilling was really that hurt? I could have sworn I saw some post game interview or something at the time where he indicated that he thought Schilling would have been able to field bunts and it wasn't worth giving up the outs.
 

SouthernBoSox

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Didn't Torre say at the time that he wasn't convinced that Schilling was really that hurt? I could have sworn I saw some post game interview or something at the time where he indicated that he thought Schilling would have been able to field bunts and it wasn't worth giving up the outs.
Not bunting against Schilling is still, in my time watching high stakes baseball, one of the most baffling decisions I've witnessed. Not one single attempt. Not one.
 

E5 Yaz

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Didn't Torre say at the time that he wasn't convinced that Schilling was really that hurt? I could have sworn I saw some post game interview or something at the time where he indicated that he thought Schilling would have been able to field bunts and it wasn't worth giving up the outs.
That's just a NY way of trying to cover his ass. He screwed up, so feed into the conspiracy theory to lessen the impact. Not wanting to give up outs? ... They only had to try it once -- and it was a frigging wet field, to boot.
 

Savin Hillbilly

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The wrong side of the bridge....
Never understood that particular version of the "respect for the game" thing. What on earth is wrong with going after an obvious weakness in your opponent's game, even a weakness caused by injury? It's not cheating, it's not taunting, it's not reckless endangerment, it's simply exploiting a legitimate advantage. If the Sox in 2004 didn't want to start a pitcher who couldn't field a bunt, they could have chosen somebody else. Likewise with Sabathia now. It's absurd.
 

BlackJack

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That's just a NY way of trying to cover his ass. He screwed up, so feed into the conspiracy theory to lessen the impact. Not wanting to give up outs? ... They only had to try it once -- and it was a frigging wet field, to boot.
Eh - I'm not saying it was true, just that it was what Torre said.

And looking back at the game log, Schilling was able to cover 1st on a 3-1 put out in the 4th. It's not like he was 100% immobile. Not to mention that the Yankees had a little bit of power in that lineup. ARod/Sheffield/Matsui/Williams as the 2-5 hitters sure as hell shouldn't have been bunting. Maybe Cairo in the 9 spot should have tried a bunt or two but the 1st time he came to bat was the 3rd inning and there were already two outs.

Should Posada have been bunting? He came up in the 2nd, also with 2 outs.

It probably made sense to bunt at least once to see how well he could field. But I don't think it's the insane mistake that it's been made out to be over the years.
 

Earthbound64

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Part of me hopes that as well, which leads me to wonder why Torre didn't order any of his hitters to bunt on Schilling in Game 6. I'm sure it was an old school "respect for the game" thing, which I understand, but man, I can't say I'd have taken the same approach.
Incompetence?

I mean, this is Joe Torre that we're talking about, after all.
 

joyofsox

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Does anyone know if it is possible to extract or download or somehow get the closed caption transcripts from these games?
 

JohntheBaptist

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Incompetence?

I mean, this is Joe Torre that we're talking about, after all.
I think Torre's reasoning was something like "that wasn't our game," as in they had top-to-bottom thumpers and if Schilling *was* hurt the best way to get him was to rely on that.

Doesn't totally explain not trying it once, but once the game goes on and the outs get fewer, I don't totally blame him for not wanting to fall back on trying to exploit his injury that way when a) that can go wrong for a lineup that never bunted, too and b) the opportunity cost when Schilling really could have been a pitch away from starting to hang pitches a la Game One.

But 1st/ 2nd inning? I was holding my breath on that shit and couldn't believe it never came, too.

It was very odd. He was "offended" by a violation of an unwritten rule that may not even exist orally.
No it is definitely a "thing" (swinging 3-0 when you're up big). I have absolutely heard broadcasters talk about it and remember at least one dustup in my time as a fan stemming back to this "offense."

Darling is very different in specific ways from his work with the Mets when he's doing the playoffs. Maybe a misguided attempt to go "broad" or something? He's really not an idiot, maybe a better way to articulate the whole thing was to wonder if AB "meant" anything by it or if it was just honestly trying to keep the foot on the gas.
 

lexrageorge

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Regarding the 2004 Game 6:

I think that quote about Torre respecting the game is a bunch of nonsense. The Yankees really didn't bunt that much all season. Jeter (21 bunts) and Cairo (13) combined for 34 of the team's 48 non-pitcher bunt attempts. If you look at the game situation:

First inning: Top of the lineup (Jeter, A-Rod, Sheffield) that had such great success against Schilling in Game 1 was naturally expected to swing away to see if Schilling has anything; noone on either team knew what to expect at that point.

2nd inning: Matsui, Williams, Posada. It was again best to use the middle of the order to put the ball in play, which they did. I also do not believe Posada attempted a bunt all season.

3rd inning: Neither Sierra nor Clark are really candidates for bunting there, and Jeter came up with a guy on 2nd and 2 outs, so swinging away was the only option.

4th inning: Sheffield came up with A-Rod on first and none out. Perhaps he could have bunted, but he got a single anyway, which is a better outcome. Matsui hadn't bunted all season, and the Yankees were behind 4-0 at that point, so it's not like swinging away was the wrong choice. And there is a real risk of a double play if the bunt goes the wrong direction. Turns out the heart of the Yankees lineup went meekly, with Schilling getting a putout to help kill any chance of a big inning.

5th inning and 6th inning: Cairo came up with 2 outs in the 5th, which is not an ideal bunting situation. Perhaps Jeter could have tried to bunt his way on to start the 6th. But he also had 23 HR's and 44 2B's that season, and so it's a tough bat to take out of the lineup.

7th inning: None of the players due up (Matsui, Williams, Posada, Sierra) were bunters at that point in their careers. Williams hit the one out HR, so allowing Posada and Sierra to see what they could do with the bat was the smart play there.

It wasn't a team built to take advantage of bunting opportunities, which really weren't there to begin with.

Then there was Tony LaRussa and the Cardinals in Game 2 of the World Series:

1st inning: Swinging away with the top of that lineup (Renteria, Walker, Pujols) made perfect sense. And Pujols hit one hard. Rolen happened to hit one at Mueller to end the inning.

2nd inning: Womack led the team's positional players with bunt attempts, and he came up with Sanders on first with one out. He singled anyway. With 2 on and one out, perhaps Matheny could have attempted the bunt. But going for the big inning wasn't wrong in that situation either.

3rd inning: Marlon Anderson led off the inning, and he was a utility player that attempted one bunt all season. With the top of the order due up, and the Cards having baserunners the first 2 innings, it was not the opportunity for attempting bunts.

4th inning: Pujols led off with a double, and neither Rolen nor Edmonds are guys that normally bunt. Pujols scored anyway, cutting the Sox lead to 2-1. And while Womack did come up with a runner on 1st, there was already 2 outs.

5th inning: Renteria was up with 1 out and a runner (Matheny) on first. Probably the first true bunting opportunity. But the Cards were down by 3 at that point.

6th inning: With the heart of the lineup (Walker, Pujols, Rolen, Edmonds) due up, it's hard to criticize the strategy here.

So, among the 2 games, there was at best 1 opportunity where bunting may have made sense.
 

nvalvo

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Posted without endorsement, but this would make sense given how hard they were squaring up Severino, and how little trouble they had taking pitches.
 

scottyno

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First time all year that Vaz is catching Porcello, I'm sure Rick is thrilled
 

williams_482

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I'm really impressed by Cora sitting Holt.

We all know (or should know) by now that "hot streaks" aren't predictive in any meaningful capacity. Holt isn't even riding a streak, but a single (really good) game on a day his team scored 16 runs and he finished with a bomb off a backup catcher. I'm obviously pleased that he did all that, and it would be nice if he plays well next time he's in the lineup, but none of it is grounds to assume he's going to tear the cover off the ball the rest of the way if given the chance.

I have zero doubt that Kinsler, Pearce, and JBJ are significantly better players than Holt against a soft tossing lefty, and Nunez with the platoon advantage seems a reasonable bet as well.

This is the opposite of the Gomes/Nava situation from 2013, and it bodes well for this team's short and long term outlook.
 

Zososoxfan

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Posted without endorsement, but this would make sense given how hard they were squaring up Severino, and how little trouble they had taking pitches.
...aaaaaaaaaaaand what about the other 4 pitchers? I'll leave Romine outta this in the spirit of unwritten rules.
 

williams_482

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Which makes the choice of Christian over Leon kind of odd, though, unless Sandy's hurting.
I don't know, they are probably close to equivalent players. Leon's framing stats are better and the pitchers clearly like him more, but Vazquez's statcast batting stats (although terrible) are significantly better than Leon's. Cora may also prefer Vazquez's contact-heavy approach given the awful defenders New York is running out there at 2B, 3B, and LF.

Ultimately, I'm going to give Cora a pass no matter who he starts at C, given how awful all the options are and how maybe the biggest factor in that decision (how well they work with the pitchers) is virtually impossible for us to quantify.
 

Eagle3

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I can recall the Sox blowing a 9 run lead against the Yankees TWICE in my lifetime, once with Roger effing Clemens pitching. So especially in a playoff game, there is no "unwritten rule" that applies. At least not until the 8th or 9th inning when they clearly waved the white flag.
 

DeadlySplitter

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I'm really impressed by Cora sitting Holt.

We all know (or should know) by now that "hot streaks" aren't predictive in any meaningful capacity. Holt isn't even riding a streak, but a single (really good) game on a day his team scored 16 runs and he finished with a bomb off a backup catcher. I'm obviously pleased that he did all that, and it would be nice if he plays well next time he's in the lineup, but none of it is grounds to assume he's going to tear the cover off the ball the rest of the way if given the chance.

I have zero doubt that Kinsler, Pearce, and JBJ are significantly better players than Holt against a soft tossing lefty, and Nunez with the platoon advantage seems a reasonable bet as well.

This is the opposite of the Gomes/Nava situation from 2013, and it bodes well for this team's short and long term outlook.
I suppose. it's all very short sample size in the end
 

P'tucket rhymes with...

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I'm really impressed by Cora sitting Holt.

We all know (or should know) by now that "hot streaks" aren't predictive in any meaningful capacity. Holt isn't even riding a streak, but a single (really good) game on a day his team scored 16 runs and he finished with a bomb off a backup catcher. I'm obviously pleased that he did all that, and it would be nice if he plays well next time he's in the lineup, but none of it is grounds to assume he's going to tear the cover off the ball the rest of the way if given the chance.

I have zero doubt that Kinsler, Pearce, and JBJ are significantly better players than Holt against a soft tossing lefty, and Nunez with the platoon advantage seems a reasonable bet as well.

This is the opposite of the Gomes/Nava situation from 2013, and it bodes well for this team's short and long term outlook.
Ian Kinsler isn't doing anything better than Brock Holt this year, and that includes hitting lefties. Cora might well be playing some percentages not apparent to the general public, but from the perspective of fans with access to the usual metrics available at baseball ref or fangraphs, this is not at all an obviously good call.
 

InstaFace

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This game happened the day after the Sox won 25-8. Ahead 9-2 after 7, blew the game. It happens and I wouldn't think twice about what occurred last night. Plus Sanchez mishandled the pitch in question and Benintendi would have been on second anyway.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/BOS/BOS200306280.shtml
I think John Henry said it best:

Told of Little's apology, the former Marlins owner shook his head in amazement.

"Grady apologized?" he said. "I disagree with that. That's old school. What about the fan who pays $50 and gives up his Friday night to come out here? Don't we owe it to our fans to play hard all the time?"

Henry mused that perhaps next time the Red Sox should put a disclaimer on the scoreboard: "We're not trying anymore."
 

williams_482

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Ian Kinsler isn't doing anything better than Brock Holt this year, and that includes hitting lefties. Cora might well be playing some percentages not apparent to the general public, but from the perspective of fans with access to the usual metrics available at baseball ref or fangraphs, this is not at all an obviously good call.
Kinsler is a superb defensive second baseman with a solid offensive track record. He was an above average player this year despite missing time to injury and a .250 BABiP. He had the platoon advantage in this matchup, which, small-sample weirdness notwithstanding, is a significant factor.

Now, that .250 BABiP is probably real, because his contact quality metrics suck, and I'll happily take Holt against right handers. But unless you are buying Holt's true talent as equal or better than his 2018 season line, Kinsler still seems a superior option in these circumstances.
 

donutogre

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Was bummed to not be around for this game, but I am not sad I missed that 9th. Looking forward to reading the game thread tomorrow though!
 

DeadlySplitter

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this is for all the Yankee fans crowing that Stanton would put them over the top while we quietly secured JD in February.

all started then for me. we won the war against them this season.
 

scottyno

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Sox pen out-pitched the Yankees pen, everyone totally saw that coming! (Not counting Romine in calculations)
 

Wallball Tingle

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Man, beating them twice in their house when they were counting on being invincible there is so sweet. They couldn't even stop the Sox from lining up Sale for the first game of a battle royale between the two best teams in MLB. They were an appetizer.
 

Noseminer

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Keep the Yankees in the ballpark and they are very beatable. Easier said than done, especially in their little league park, but they pulled it off. So sweet. Losing to them would have been unbearable, but winning is incredible. Gonna be a lot of emotions either way. I SO much prefer this way. Especially since they did it to us for so fucking long. Nice to turn the tables again and dance on their field again. Awesome job guys. Two goals down, two to go.
 

sheamonu

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That was a painful last half inning, but now? Saul Goodman. Wright was on the field at the end and looked reasonably spry - any chance he’s back?
 

scottyno

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That was a painful last half inning, but now? Saul Goodman. Wright was on the field at the end and looked reasonably spry - any chance he’s back?
Who knows about the world series, but 0% chance he's back in the ALCS even if he could pitch, when you replace a player he has to miss the next series as well.