SBLII: What Did the Butler Do?
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They've been talking about it so long, that it would be tough to accurately summarize. He asked Butler about his future and Butler said "I ain't Miss Cleo, I don't know.." But Reiss than said that he doesn't think there is any chance Butler comes back, which is pretty obvious. Reiss seems to be doing what he can to toe the line, talked about how it could have been a football decision, wanting to use the larger corners against the larger Eagles receivers, but nobody has any answer for the questions of "when it wasn't working, why the fuck didn't it get changed." Reiss said they did make some adjustments bringing in Bademosi for Richards, but they kept that initial 2 big corner plan all game long, etc.
Whatever, nobody knows. It just sucks.
What’s so maddening is that Bill is probably the best HC I have ever seen in all of sports. If not the best, he’s in the top 5. Yet this decision was one of the worst calls I have seen a Boston/NE coach make in a big game. I hated John Farrell yet I can’t think of a single decision he made that I thought was worse. Grady’s Boner stands alone but this made me think of that. Like others, I want Bill back and I hope he stays for a long time. But this decision was simply unforgivable.
And it lost them the Super Bowl--or contributed mightily to it. And yes, that last part is my hedge.
Fletcher Cox was an asteroid
Yep 1 extra point in a game Kareem Hunt rushed for a billion yards.
I get that you are frustrated - hell I am still hurting from this one. But you said - and these are your words - that you were "Pretty sure they never gave up 41 pts with Butler starting". All DanoooME did was point out that you were incorrect.
And really the game came down the fact that whatever BB and Patricia were able to do to mask the defense’s issues after Week 4 they were not able to do tonight. Remember this defense was historically bad through four games this year, so it can’t be that much of a surprise that it showed up again at the worst possible time.
But wasn't your point, regardless of the actual numbers, that the D never played this bad when Butler was playing? The point is that is just incorrect - they did, in Week 1.
That point doesn't even factor into it. You said they've never hung up 41 with Butler playing. They have. With a bonus point. You were wrong.
Yep, pass rush was non existent, even when they rushed 5 they didn't get close. Would have loved to see them rush 3 and force Foles to make some tough throws instead.
This is a great point. But part of the problem in weeks 1-4 was a lack of communication, or so we were told. Removing one of the starting corners from the D might have visited that upon them again. At the very least, it deprived them of a good tackler.
Some of the reactions here have been extreme but we can probably all agree that the decision made winning harder tonight, and probably played a role in the outcome.
That is really something new for us Pats fans in this era. I felt that way to some extent in 2010 and Welker was only benched for a series. Today is just very hard to wrap my head around given the coaching aspect.
This. You practice and play as a unit all year, and change in the biggest game of the year, and expect everyone will be able to do their jobs seamlessly?
That and the tackling are two reasons the decision didn’t work.
Butler is an emotional cat, and it's sad to hear him being emotional and clueless about this.
He deserved better.
He deserved better.
Anyone have the target and yardage numbers by corner? Rowe got torched at times in the first half but did make some nice plays, including breaking up the td on the first drive, and seemed much better in the 2nd half after adjustments. FWIW pff graded him as one of the better pats defenders (obviously debatable I know, but seems to indicate he at least wasn't terrible). Bademosi or Harmon over Butler as the 3rd CB seems much harder to explain if they just didn't like the matchup of Butler on a big wr.
Nobody in his or he right mind will argue that BB mailed in a SB ring to make a point or settle a personal score. That's not happening. He would not do that to the team, and more selfishly he would not do that to himself. And he's especially not going to do that with a player who is on his way out the door anyway. And even if he were tempted, doing something like that would be THE quickest and most direct way to "losing the team."
This rules out, in my mind, Butler breaking a rule -- and I don't care how important the rule is. Or the now antique beef over money. And BB did not do this to prove to the world he could win it without Butler.
So what is it? He just might have had the most dreadful coaching night of his life at the worst possible time. He was wedded to a game plan -- big corners -- and simply failed to adjust. He failed to adjust because he is very confident in his judgments (call it hubris if you like) and because during a game moving at warp speed, things just never got quite desperate enough. Hell, they nearly pulled it out.
This fact from Ed H in the game thread --
"No team has ever gained 600 yards of offense and lost. Playoffs, regular season, ever. Well, had. That has to be the craziest stat. 613 yards and lost lol."
It was a very weird night. What seemed obvious to us -- I thought Butler would be in to start the 3rd quarter -- simply did not register.
This rules out, in my mind, Butler breaking a rule -- and I don't care how important the rule is. Or the now antique beef over money. And BB did not do this to prove to the world he could win it without Butler.
So what is it? He just might have had the most dreadful coaching night of his life at the worst possible time. He was wedded to a game plan -- big corners -- and simply failed to adjust. He failed to adjust because he is very confident in his judgments (call it hubris if you like) and because during a game moving at warp speed, things just never got quite desperate enough. Hell, they nearly pulled it out.
This fact from Ed H in the game thread --
"No team has ever gained 600 yards of offense and lost. Playoffs, regular season, ever. Well, had. That has to be the craziest stat. 613 yards and lost lol."
It was a very weird night. What seemed obvious to us -- I thought Butler would be in to start the 3rd quarter -- simply did not register.
It’s all hindsight, but it strikes me as really dumb to bench him when they could have activated Britt or someone else that would have provided more than ST coverage. I’m about the biggest ‘In Bill We Trust’ Guy you’ll find, but this was just mind boggling. Short of him telling BB to go fuck himself this morning, I don’t understand it. And yes, he would have helped, even if he hasn’t played great all year. I’m quite comfortable saying this decision and the Ghost missed kicks cost us the game. One of those is on the coach, be it BB or MP. That was an embarrassing display.
Rich Hill with a plausible football explanation:
Patriots personnel decision was to put a safety (Chung, Richards) at the nickel to help stop the run and also cover the slot (Agholor). Plan was for bigger Rowe to cover Jeffery and they trusted Gilmore to cover Smith better than Butler could.
Rowe struggled vs Jeffery and coaches decided to just flip Rowe's and Gilmore's coverage responsibilities, instead of benching Rowe and adding Butler to the mix.
So it sounds like they were worried about the Eagles running the ball and wanted a bigger slot player in place of a third CB. And they wanted Rowe and Gilmore outside on the biggest receivers (which makes sense). The problem is, they didn't stop the run all that well, either.
Patriots personnel decision was to put a safety (Chung, Richards) at the nickel to help stop the run and also cover the slot (Agholor). Plan was for bigger Rowe to cover Jeffery and they trusted Gilmore to cover Smith better than Butler could.
Rowe struggled vs Jeffery and coaches decided to just flip Rowe's and Gilmore's coverage responsibilities, instead of benching Rowe and adding Butler to the mix.
So it sounds like they were worried about the Eagles running the ball and wanted a bigger slot player in place of a third CB. And they wanted Rowe and Gilmore outside on the biggest receivers (which makes sense). The problem is, they didn't stop the run all that well, either.
After Richards got beat in coverage a half dozen times and couldn't tackle a traffic cone they didn't think to reconsider the plan?
Or the fact that Chung looked like he was playing on one leg for much of the 2nd half.
Jordan Richards is not a very good football player. Brutal second round pick that was a mistake from the moment it was announced at the podium.
Malcolm Butler: "It was a coach's decision. I was just doing my job and supporting my teammates. I have nothing but great things to say about the organization. They gave me an opportunity. That's about it."
Re: Browner -
Malcolm Butler was not very good this year. I completely get questioning whether or not he could have improved on that shitshow, but acting like he’s some savior overall is ridiculous. Rowe over Butler is an entirely defensible decision, though not using him at all in the slot on Aghlor was weird.
And Hightower should know better than that. Especially as he didn’t even play.
Malcolm Butler was not very good this year. I completely get questioning whether or not he could have improved on that shitshow, but acting like he’s some savior overall is ridiculous. Rowe over Butler is an entirely defensible decision, though not using him at all in the slot on Aghlor was weird.
And Hightower should know better than that. Especially as he didn’t even play.
Another flag on Browner. Even with the amazing interception, no way Butler was NE's "best defender" the last 3 years.
Butler did not distinguish himself pretty much all. season. long.
He was better than the garbage they put on the field in his place. A better cover man and a better tackler. He's also played the vast majority of snaps this year, so likely the team communication is better with him on the field.
Terrible coaching decision and the results (historically bad defense) prove it.
Butler is indeed a really solid tackler. He can stick tackles better than anyone in the secondary not named McCourty.
That's the party line that Reiss was spewing earlier, and frankly, I'm not buying a word of it. They want us to believe that in the other 17 games the Pats played this year, there wasn't a single one where they thought putting a safety at the nickel and a larger corner at the #2 was a good decision? Never, not once? Butler played 98% of the snaps this year, so if this is their reasoning, it is literally the first time all year that they thought this would work, and they chose the Super Bowl to trot it out.
Then, when it clearly isn't working, not any conceivable way, they don't make a change? At all? Or the only changes they made were to flip Gilmore/Rowe, and bring in Bademosi for Richards? I'm not buying a fucking word of it. Not one. You don't just bench a guy who plays 98% of the snaps all year, and who has proven time and again that he's far more talented in every respect than the three guys you decide to play ahead of him. This is bullshit. Whatever BB's reason, this wasn't it.
And even if it was the reason, the decision to stick with it is indefensible, so it doesn't even make them look any better than they would if they came out and said it was a petty, disciplinary decision that backfired.
Butler struggled this season, but does him struggling really warrant him going from almost 98% of defensive snaps in 17 games to 0?
I guess that’s the part that I’m struggling with. Also, while he may not have been some almighty savior, there was no adjustment to maybe give him a look? The only adjustment was swapping Gilmore and Rowe’s assignments?
I guess that’s the part that I’m struggling with. Also, while he may not have been some almighty savior, there was no adjustment to maybe give him a look? The only adjustment was swapping Gilmore and Rowe’s assignments?
Browner knows the locker room was divided how?
I don't think there's any bad blood here from BB, he just made an all-time coaching gaffe. Butler was gone anyways at least
I don't think there's any bad blood here from BB, he just made an all-time coaching gaffe. Butler was gone anyways at least
I would guess Browner is friends with some Pats players. Although, maybe too soon after the game to have spoken to anyone?
This thread is a lot worse off trying to guess what Browner knows or does not know about the locker room.
That switch worked pretty well and Agholor didn’t do much until late in the game. My guess is they figured there was no reason to switch things up with the Agholor coverage, based on his first half, which is where Butler would have gone.
The bigger issue to me was still just a total domination of the front 7. They hung the secondary out to dry. Except Jordan Richards, he sucks bad. I would have played Butler blindfolded and out of position over him.
I really hope more leaks out here, I truly can’t wrap my head around this one. Butler was very mediocre this year and hell I’ll even be charitable and say I respect the decision to start Rowe given the week of practice and the matchup. But 0 snaps, even with the 3rd and 4th string guys struggling and Chung hurt? Losing the start and major snaps is game plan. 0 snaps is an FU.
Could be making it up or Browner could have received a text from Butler or maybe Harmon. Harmon seemed upset in his post game interview that Butler was benched.
In my opinion, the 0 snaps was the game plan.
Let me ask you guys this question. I assume you've now all seen the video of Malcom crying during the National Anthem. Do you think he reacts that way if he just spent a full week in practice watching Rowe taking the first team snaps, and is told he won't start? Or do you think he reacts that way if it's made clear to him right before the game that not only is he not starting, but he won't be playing any defensive snaps? I think it's the latter, and I don't know how anyone could argue otherwise, because if Rowe was getting the snaps in practice all week, not starting would not have been a surprise that led to that emotion.
He was told pre-game he wouldn't be playing defense, at all. The decision was made, and regardless of what happened in the game, BB wasn't going back on the decision. I stand by the belief that if Malcolm was the last healthy guy on the defense, they would have trotted out someone's corpse over him today, because using Richards and Bademosi was barely a step up from that. The question remains why did BB decide before the game that Butler deserved zero snaps on defense?
His revenge fire will be deep. Whoever he plays for in 2018 will get 200% effort and commitment.
Except the Eagles were also running the ball all over the place, and breaking tackles in the secondary without a problem. Coverage isn't Butler's only responsibility, it's tackling, and he tackles better than anyone in that secondary other than maybe McCourty. And the tackling, IMO, was as big a problem tonight as any that the defense had.
I think it's also very plausible that once the game was about to start, and you knew your role had been significantly reduced the past two weeks, that the emotions could hit you all of a sudden as well.. sadness/frustration/anger.. it probably could hit you all at once regardless when he was told after JAX.