That was then: Celebrating what was

Ralphwiggum

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 27, 2012
9,824
Needham, MA
I’m currently binge watching all of the Pats Super Bowl highlights and I am struck by how many players I barely remember on some of these teams including the 2014 team. Is there a list anywhere of the total number of Patriots who have won a ring? The number has to be pretty large.
 

slamminsammya

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2006
9,152
San Francisco
I’m currently binge watching all of the Pats Super Bowl highlights and I am struck by how many players I barely remember on some of these teams including the 2014 team. Is there a list anywhere of the total number of Patriots who have won a ring? The number has to be pretty large.
Roster turnover is generally about 30% per year I would say. If it were a random process you would have the classic coupon collector problem: For n roster spots you need about n log n instances of roster replacement before the team is completely refreshed. If n = 53 and each season we replace, say, 15 players, you are looking at a totally different team about every (53 * log( 53) ) / 15 = 6 seasons.
 

Ralphwiggum

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 27, 2012
9,824
Needham, MA
Roster turnover is generally about 30% per year I would say. If it were a random process you would have the classic coupon collector problem: For n roster spots you need about n log n instances of roster replacement before the team is completely refreshed. If n = 53 and each season we replace, say, 15 players, you are looking at a totally different team about every (53 * log( 53) ) / 15 = 6 seasons.
It was my understanding that there would be no math.
 

Ralphwiggum

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 27, 2012
9,824
Needham, MA
I found an article in the Herald from last year's Super Bowl indicating that there were 206 players who had won a Super Bowl as a member of the Patriots. So the number is 206 plus however many from last year were winning for the first time.
 

TheoShmeo

Skrub's sympathy case
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
12,890
Boston, NY
When it comes to celebrating what is, I don't think we always give enough heed to how much they've overcome.

In 2014, they won despite having had the whole deflategate nonsense erupt immediately after the AFCCG and continue to be a huge story up until game time.

In 2016, they won without Rob Gronkowksi, the most dangerous TE in football. True, they had Martellus Bennett, but he was pretty banged up.

This year, they have not had their second or third most valuable player on offense, Julian Edelman, for the entire season, and their most valuable player on defense, Donta Hightower, for the vast majority of the season. They have also not had Malcom Mitchell, one of the key performers on offense during SB 51, for the entire season. Go back and watch SB 51...it's kind of amazing to see how important those three players were to that win and to contemplate where the Pats are without them this year.

Brady and Belichick. We will never see a pair like them again.
 

Koufax

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
5,936
To say nothing of having been stripped of two first round draft picks for BS scandals.
 

BlackJack

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 11, 2007
3,456
To say nothing of having been stripped of two first round draft picks for BS scandals.
Below is the list of players selected in 2008 and 2016 between the pick that was taken away, and the Patriots' first selection each year:

In each year, Bill took a CB (Terrence Wheatley in 2008, Cyrus Jones in 2016). It's unknowable what he would have done with those picks but there are definitely players on each list that would have looked good in a NE uniform.

2008:
PickTeamPlayerPosition
31New York GiantsKenny Phillips S
32Miami DolphinsPhillip Merling DE
33St. Louis RamsDonnie Avery WR
34Washington RedskinsDevin Thomas WR
35Kansas City ChiefsBrandon FlowersCB
36Green Bay PackersJordy Nelson WR
37Atlanta FalconsCurtis Lofton LB
38Seattle SeahawksJohn Carlson TE
39San Francisco 49ersChilo Rachal G
40New Orleans SaintsTracy Porter CB
41Buffalo BillsJames Hardy WR
42Denver BroncosEddie Royal WR
43Minnesota VikingsTyrell Johnson S
44Chicago BearsMatt Forte RB
45Detroit LionsJordon Dizon LB
46Cincinnati BengalsJerome Simpson WR
47Philadelphia EaglesTrevor Laws DT
48Washington RedskinsFred Davis TE
49Philadelphia EaglesDeSean Jackson WR
50Arizona CardinalsCalais Campbell DE
51Washington RedskinsMalcolm Kelly WR
52Jacksonville JaguarsQuentin Groves DE
53Pittsburgh SteelersLimas Sweed WR
54Tennessee TitansJason Jones DT
55Baltimore RavensRay RiceRB
56Green Bay PackersBrian Brohm QB
57Miami DolphinsChad Henne QB
58Tampa Bay BuccaneersDexter Jackson WR
59Indianapolis ColtsMike Pollak C
60Green Bay PackersPatrick Lee CB
61Dallas CowboysMartellus Bennett TE



2016:
PickTeamPlayerPosition
29Arizona CardinalsRobert Nkemdiche DT
30Carolina PanthersVernon Butler DT
31Seattle SeahawksGermain Ifedi OT
32Cleveland BrownsEmmanuel Ogbah DE
33Tennessee TitansKevin Dodd OLB
34Dallas CowboysJaylon Smith OLB
35San Diego ChargersHunter Henry TE
36Jacksonville JaguarsMyles Jack OLB
37Kansas City ChiefsChris Jones DT
38Miami DolphinsXavien Howard CB
39Tampa Bay BuccaneersNoah Spence DE
40New York GiantsSterling Shepard WR
41Buffalo BillsReggie Ragland ILB
42Baltimore RavensKamalei Correa LB
43Tennessee TitansAustin Johnson DT
44Oakland RaidersJihad Ward DE
45Tennessee TitansDerrick Henry RB
46Detroit LionsA'Shawn Robinson DT
47New Orleans SaintsMichael Thomas WR
48Green Bay PackersJason Spriggs OT
49Seattle SeahawksJarran Reed DT
50Houston TexansNick Martin C
51New York JetsChristian Hackenberg QB
52Atlanta FalconsDeion Jones LB
53Washington RedskinsSu'a Cravens LB
54Minnesota VikingsMackensie Alexander CB
55Cincinnati BengalsTyler Boyd WR
56Chicago BearsCody Whitehair G
57Indianapolis ColtsT. J. Green CB
58Pittsburgh SteelersSean Davis S
59Tampa Bay BuccaneersRoberto Aguayo K
 

Nator

Member
SoSH Member
And in 2003, they beat the co-MVPs in back-to-back games in the playoffs
They were actually 4-0 against league MVP's if you count regular and post-season.

I loved that 2003 team. That was when they were at peak defense. That was also when the AFC was at its peak level of dominance over the NFC, and the Patriots were Alpha- Dominator. The Patriots played a brutal schedule yet still went 14-2. They pitched 3 shut-outs at home that year.

Other highlights in no particular order were:

Sweeping the the Dolphins in two memorable games. The 1st in week 7 in Miami on that bomb to Troy Brown in OT (that place was, and still is to some extent a house of horrors for New England), and the 2nd was a shut-out during a blizzard at Gillette that caused this iconic snow celebration.


They also clinched the division.
In week 14.
Which is crazy.
The Dolphins were really good that year at 10-6 yet didn't qualify for the playoffs. Like I said above, the AFC was really friggin' good in 2003.

Beating those God Damn Broncos in Mile High. The game with the intentional safety. The defense needed a 3 and out after that, and back in aught 3, you just knew that they were going to get it, and they got it. They took the lead when Brady threw a gorgeous 18 yard TD pass to David Givens with 30 seconds to go. Either Givens was going to catch it or no-one was, the ball was placed perfectly. Deltha O'Neal never had a chance.

David Givens was not a fast man by NFL standards, but he caught EVERYTHING that season. His hands were football magnets.


Sweeping the Jets, including a 5 interception effort on the road in the Meadowlands. The biggest moment of that game happened on the sidelines of course...



38-34 vs. the Colts in Indy. Even though they gave up 34, we were in the beginning stages of the "Belichick is in Manning's head" era. This game is likely best remembered for Willie McGinest doing his best Al Czervik impersonation to buy the defense some time as the Colts were gashing the exhausted Patriots on a drive late in the 4th.


But after a miraculous recovery, made the final play on a tungsten-carbide strong goal line stand that finished the game.




38-30 over Tennessee at Gillette. This was big, because it was coming off of their loss to the Redskins(!!?!) in week 4. Of course they wouldn't lose again until they faced Pittsburgh in late October 2004, but this was a .500 team heading into this game with many question marks, and injuries piling up. Ty Law took a 65 yard interception to the shack late in the 4th giving them a lead they wouldn't give up.

Ty Law was without question the best cornerback in the league that season. The Law, as written in 2003, stated that half of the field was off limits to opposing passing games that season (OK, that was cheesy).


AFC Divisional Round, the Antarctic playoff match-up with Tennessee. Adam Vinatieri just barely cleared the crossbar on what would have been just about any other kicker's most memorable career field goal, but this was like 3rd or 4th best for him. It was an 11 below wind chill and that football must have felt like kicking an oblong shot-put. He put it through from 46 yards.

AFCCG The owning of Manning. They had his giant-ass head confused as hell all game long. It was so wonderful to watch him whine, gesticulate, and completely fall apart.

This was especially impressive considering he was riding into Foxboro with a nearly perfect post-season QB passer rating. The Colts were on such an offensive roll that they in fact didn't even have to attempt a punt while strafing the Broncos and then the Chiefs the two weeks prior.

Superbowl XXXVIII
, we know how that one turned out.

So, two things.

1. I obviously have a little bit of time on my hands at work.

2. The 2003 team dragged nearly all of their opponents into their chamber of torture of great defense and timely plays. God I loved that version of the Patriots.
 
Last edited:

Import78

Member
SoSH Member
May 29, 2007
2,091
West Lebanon, NH
snip

AFCCG The owning of Manning. They had his giant-ass head confused as hell all game long. It was so wonderful to watch him whine, gesticulate, and completely fall apart.

This was especially impressive considering he was riding into Foxboro with a nearly perfect post-season QB passer rating.The Colts were on such an offensive roll that they in fact didn't even have to attempt a punt while strafing the Broncos and then the Chiefs the two weeks prior.
I think when they finally did have to punt vs the Patriots the long snapper sent it way over the punter's head and he wound up kicking it out the back of the end zone. Just a complete defeat, one of my favorites as well. Was this also the game where Law had as many picks as Harrison had receptions?
 

Hoya81

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 3, 2010
8,457
38-34 vs. the Colts in Indy. Even though they gave up 34, we were in the beginning stages of the "Belichick is in Manning's head" era. This game is likely best remembered for Willie McGinest doing his best Al Czervik impersonation to buy the defense some time as the Colts were gashing the exhausted Patriots on a drive late in the 4th.


But after a miraculous recovery, made the final play on a tungsten-carbide strong goal line stand that finished the game.

The D completely blew up the Colts on that play. Even if Willie misses somehow, 3 or 4 guys could have made the play. Warren and Ted Washington(one of the great one season Pats) totally pancaked their guys.
 

Ralphwiggum

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 27, 2012
9,824
Needham, MA
That 2003 team also probably kept me from doing serious physical harm to myself after what happened in the Toilet in late October. After Aaron Boone, the Pats wouldn’t lose a game until after the Sox had gotten their revenge the following October.

Edit: They also didn’t trail in a game from like mid-November until the Super Bowl. First time since the ‘86 Celtics that a team I rooted for was supposed to win, and just delivered every weekend.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

posts way less than 18% useful shit
SoSH Member
Nov 17, 2010
14,425
They were actually 4-0 against league MVP's if you count regular and post-season.

I loved that 2003 team. That was when they were at peak defense. That was also when the AFC was at its peak level of dominance over the NFC, and the Patriots were Alpha- Dominator. The Patriots played a brutal schedule yet still went 14-2. They pitched 3 shut-outs at home that year.

Other highlights in no particular order were:

Sweeping the the Dolphins in two memorable games. The 1st in week 7 in Miami on that bomb to Troy Brown in OT (that place was, and still is to some extent a house of horrors for New England), and the 2nd was a shut-out during a blizzard at Gillette that caused this iconic snow celebration.


They also clinched the division.
In week 14.
Which is crazy.
The Dolphins were really good that year at 10-6 yet didn't qualify for the playoffs. Like I said above, the AFC was really friggin' good in 2003.

Beating those God Damn Broncos in Mile High. The game with the intentional safety. The defense needed a 3 and out after that, and back in aught 3, you just knew that they were going to get it, and they got it. They took the lead when Brady threw a gorgeous 18 yard TD pass to David Givens with 30 seconds to go. Either Givens was going to catch it or no-one was, the ball was placed perfectly. Deltha O'Neal never had a chance.

David Givens was not a fast man by NFL standards, but he caught EVERYTHING that season. His hands were football magnets.


Sweeping the Jets, including a 5 interception effort on the road in the Meadowlands. The biggest moment of that game happened on the sidelines of course...



38-34 vs. the Colts in Indy. Even though they gave up 34, we were in the beginning stages of the "Belichick is in Manning's head" era. This game is likely best remembered for Willie McGinest doing his best Al Czervik impersonation to buy the defense some time as the Colts were gashing the exhausted Patriots on a drive late in the 4th.


But after a miraculous recovery, made the final play on a tungsten-carbide strong goal line stand that finished the game.




38-30 over Tennessee at Gillette. This was big, because it was coming off of their loss to the Redskins(!!?!) in week 4. Of course they wouldn't lose again until they faced Pittsburgh in late October 2004, but this was a .500 team heading into this game with many question marks, and injuries piling up. Ty Law took a 65 yard interception to the shack late in the 4th giving them a lead they wouldn't give up.

Ty Law was without question the best cornerback in the league that season. The Law, as written in 2003, stated that half of the field was off limits to opposing passing games that season (OK, that was cheesy).


AFC Divisional Round, the Antarctic playoff match-up with Tennessee. Adam Vinatieri just barely cleared the crossbar on what would have been just about any other kicker's most memorable career field goal, but this was like 3rd or 4th best for him. It was an 11 below wind chill and that football must have felt like kicking an oblong shot-put. He put it through from 46 yards.

AFCCG The owning of Manning. They had his giant-ass head confused as hell all game long. It was so wonderful to watch him whine, gesticulate, and completely fall apart.

This was especially impressive considering he was riding into Foxboro with a nearly perfect post-season QB passer rating. The Colts were on such an offensive roll that they in fact didn't even have to attempt a punt while strafing the Broncos and then the Chiefs the two weeks prior.

Superbowl XXXVIII
, we know how that one turned out.

So, two things.

1. I obviously have a little bit of time on my hands at work.

2. The 2003 team dragged nearly all of their opponents into their chamber of torture of great defense and timely plays. God I loved that version of the Patriots.
Awesome recap. Brings back a lot of great memories. I was so lucky that this run came in stride with my college years. Same for the Sox 2004 season.

Not sure how I remember any of it.

Or survived.
 

Prodigal Sox

New Member
Jul 15, 2005
255
between the buttons
That is the only Brady/Belichick era Pats game I've seen in person. And it was the last loss before the record 21 game winning streak.
I was also at this game and if I remember correctly the Pats were down two scores going into the fourth quarter, scored a TD, and Brady was driving them for the winning score when he threw a pick. I was convinced they were going to win that game.
 

loshjott

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 30, 2004
14,943
Silver Spring, MD
So....you're not in Minnesota this weekend, right?
I actually was in Houston for SB 38. I had a work trip to Galveston the following Monday and once they made it I switched my hotel and got in Friday. I hung around the ambiance in Houston for the weekend but was not prepared to drop close to $2K for the ticket so watched in a Pats hotel bar (not the team hotel).
 

Bergs

funky and cold
SoSH Member
Jul 22, 2005
21,612
I actually was in Houston for SB 38. I had a work trip to Galveston the following Monday and once they made it I switched my hotel and got in Friday. I hung around the ambiance in Houston for the weekend but was not prepared to drop close to $2K for the ticket so watched in a Pats hotel bar (not the team hotel).
I'm gonna take that as a "no"...
 

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
21,753
Pittsburgh, PA
I was also at this game and if I remember correctly the Pats were down two scores going into the fourth quarter, scored a TD, and Brady was driving them for the winning score when he threw a pick. I was convinced they were going to win that game.
Close. They got the score to draw within 17-20 with 2:14 remaining. The D got a 3-and-out with the benefit of two incompletions, and got the ball back to Brady on the plus-45, with 1:39 and 1 timeout remaining.

Piece of cake for 2017 Brady. 2017 Brady rips out the heart of the Redskins, easily moving those 45 yards for the win (or surely at least 10 for the tie) while cautiously leaving only a few seconds for them to answer.

Unfortunately, 2003 Brady went Incomplete, 5-yard pass to Branch, 2-yard run up the middle (?!), and then an incompletion to Graham on 4th and 3 for a turnover on downs. I have to question that 3rd-down call by Weis.
 

Prodigal Sox

New Member
Jul 15, 2005
255
between the buttons
Close. They got the score to draw within 17-20 with 2:14 remaining. The D got a 3-and-out with the benefit of two incompletions, and got the ball back to Brady on the plus-45, with 1:39 and 1 timeout remaining.

Piece of cake for 2017 Brady. 2017 Brady rips out the heart of the Redskins, easily moving those 45 yards for the win (or surely at least 10 for the tie) while cautiously leaving only a few seconds for them to answer.

Unfortunately, 2003 Brady went Incomplete, 5-yard pass to Branch, 2-yard run up the middle (?!), and then an incompletion to Graham on 4th and 3 for a turnover on downs. I have to question that 3rd-down call by Weis.
Yeah, I was pretty drunk so I went back to look at the game files and saw that it was turned over on downs. I also think that Colvin was injured and put on IR about this time. It may have taken them a little time to completely adjust. It was a pretty big loss.
 

moondog80

heart is two sizes two small
SoSH Member
Sep 20, 2005
8,091
Close. They got the score to draw within 17-20 with 2:14 remaining. The D got a 3-and-out with the benefit of two incompletions, and got the ball back to Brady on the plus-45, with 1:39 and 1 timeout remaining.

Piece of cake for 2017 Brady. 2017 Brady rips out the heart of the Redskins, easily moving those 45 yards for the win (or surely at least 10 for the tie) while cautiously leaving only a few seconds for them to answer.

Unfortunately, 2003 Brady went Incomplete, 5-yard pass to Branch, 2-yard run up the middle (?!), and then an incompletion to Graham on 4th and 3 for a turnover on downs. I have to question that 3rd-down call by Weis.

I'm a big fan of the run of 3rd and medium when you know you will go for it on 4th down.
 

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
21,753
Pittsburgh, PA
Graham was open too, Brady just underthrew him enough to let the safety catch up and make a play.

But yeah, 2017 Brady takes the throw to Centers every time, just to play the percentages better. Shit, 2004 Brady might have as well.
 

Reverend

for king and country
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jan 20, 2007
64,026
I’m currently binge watching all of the Pats Super Bowl highlights and I am struck by how many players I barely remember on some of these teams including the 2014 team. Is there a list anywhere of the total number of Patriots who have won a ring? The number has to be pretty large.
I assume it’s posted next to the entrance they bring free agents in through.
 

Super Nomario

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 5, 2000
14,012
Mansfield MA
That loss to Steve Spurrier's Washington squad remains one of the most inexplicable in the BB/TB12 era.
Their first loss by a FG or less. Prior to that they were 6-0. Now they are 34-12 if I reckon correctly.

I'm a big fan of the run of 3rd and medium when you know you will go for it on 4th down.
I'm not a fan. Give yourself two shots. If it's 3rd-and-20 and you have to go for it on fourth, sure, try to pick up half the yardage, but a 4th-and-2 isn't so much easier than 4th-and-5 that it's a good use of a down. It's like the sac bunt of football.
 

DJnVa

Dorito Dawg
SoSH Member
Dec 16, 2010
53,837

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
24,375
I've adopted a philosophy of coaching over the years that mirrors this approach - sport-and-situation-specific conditioning. Running suicides in basketball, for example, or laps - that does help you get into better general shape, but at no point in basketball will you perform a suicide or run a lap around the court. So my conditioning drills are mainly lots and lots of fast break drills (added benefit of working on skills that you actually use in a game), as well as high intensity half court work - ball handling under pressure, half court trapping drills, etc. Sprinting in and out of every drill. That kind of thing. At the level I coach it probably doesn't matter too much, but I can absolutely see how it can make a difference for the Patriots.

Everyone hates putting in the work though. Because it sucks and it's hard.
 

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
21,753
Pittsburgh, PA
Great article. I could really visualize Belichick-the-savant in this passage:

Belichick, of course, loves making his players run, but not because of some drill-sergeant mentality. No, he loves how it helps his team win. Last month, he raved about the offensive line’s conditioning and offered an odd breakdown of how he evaluates the team’s running: “I stand right there when they run and I can feel them run by. I mean, I’m not timing them, but I can feel when they’re running fast. I can feel when they’re not running fast. I can feel when they’re breathing heavy. I can feel when they recover quickly.”
Insert Emperor-from-Star-Wars meme here.